Deafening Silence

[Cindi Hammons]

I'm amazed at the deafening silence here on the NazNet over the Ted Haggard problems in Colorado Springs. I'm not saying we should enter in with gossip...but I'm surprised it hasn't even been mentioned.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I was thinking the same...

...it reminds me of the silence over Sen. Foley, but this is way more saddening to me.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Actually, there are many things going on in our world - that i am surprised aren't being mentioned.

i don't think it is a reflection of what is important to us, but rather that NazNetters could have hit a wave of increased activity off line.

i think, also, that a lot has been said lately about *the same ones posting* - so ones are backing off. It is usually *the same ones* would might would post one of those topics. Because they are backing off, if it is to be discussed - others need to step up and start threads. :fav18

[Joel Merrill]

I'm amazed at the deafening silence here on the NazNet over the Ted Haggard problems in Colorado Springs. I'm not saying we should enter in with gossip...but I'm surprised it hasn't even been mentioned.
I read about it. I've seen scandals like this before. Sometimes the person was guilty and other times they were not. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. He is being accused of a shameful thing. I don't think it is beneficial in to talk about it. If he is found guilty, then I could understand someone speaking of their disgust. Right now he is innocent until proven guilty.

That's my feelings on the matter.

Joel

[Beth Larpenter-Shurbutt]

Maybe everyone is like me . . . BUSY!

I've read about this and am very saddened. I pray for this man. I pray for the Christian Community as a whole is affected by the fall of someone who was touched so many lives. There is nothing I can say other than that.

Beth

[Roland Hearn]

Living on the other side of the planet we have of course not heard anything about Ted Haggard. So I went and listened and read to discover what was going on. Another example of how example of how leadership can allow itself to live outside grace and fall as a result. I would have to say his denials come across as a little disingenuous.

[Billy Cox]

I'm amazed at the deafening silence here on the NazNet over the Ted Haggard problems in Colorado Springs. I'm not saying we should enter in with gossip...but I'm surprised it hasn't even been mentioned.

I had not read the story until today. It is an interesting irony that both Haggard and Foley ended up doing something that they were publicly preaching against.

[Barbara Moulton]

I had not read the story until today. It is an interesting irony that both Haggard and Foley ended up doing something that they were publicly preaching against.

Well...this is still alleged.

Haggard apparently has admitted buying meth (but then throwing it away) but is denying have sex with the man.

[Bruce Carriker]

Allegations are cheap. No point convicting the man before we know the facts - if we ever know the facts. He's denying the homosexual prostitute allegations. Until we know something for sure, best to remain silent...even if it is deafening.

[Barbara Moulton]

Allegations are cheap. No point convicting the man before we know the facts - if we ever know the facts. He's denying the homosexual prostitute allegations. Until we know something for sure, best to remain silent...even if it is deafening.

Exactly.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Allegations are cheap. No point convicting the man before we know the facts - if we ever know the facts. He's denying the homosexual prostitute allegations. Until we know something for sure, best to remain silent...even if it is deafening.

Exactly.

I think it's pretty sad that one of the leading evangelicals in the world bought methamphetamines, regardless of the veracity of the other allegations.

My sadness is not a conviction of the man. It's a worry for the Church and how the world will respond. It's just pure sadness. I think that's quite appropriate.

But blessed be the name of the Lord.

[Roland Hearn]

Ok I am all for innocent until proven guilty and surely from a legal perspective the man deserves that but tell me why the leader of a 30 million person Christian organization needs to go to a gay prostitute for a massage and then by meth from him.
On that basis alone there is huge issues for the guy to deal with. There aren't any trained physiotherapist in Colorado? Despite the beauty he should move to another state if the only people able to give massage therapy are gay prostitutes.
If you are buying his story I’ve got a lovely little piece of property I would love to show you around.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

why the leader of a 30 million person Christian organization needs to go to a gay prostitute for a massage and then by meth from him.
.


well - - a short answer could be --

From time to time i go to a chiropracter. Honestly, i have never ever asked what her sexual preference is. Yes, i have had a massage there, too. i have no clue what their sexual activity would be.

i think that it is sad when someone of the church does a sin. But, i think it is equally sad when ones of the church make gross assumptions.

The response the world will have to this occasion will be towards not just the accused but how the church responded to the accused.

[Roland Hearn]

Belinda, I see and understand what you are trying to say. If the guy was a gay massage therapist I would certainly accept your position. The articles and video I have seen clearly state he is a gay prostitute not simply gay. Of course the media could be twisting it in which case my assumptions are too far but I think there would be an outrageous out cry from the gay community if they labelled a gay medical practitioner "a gay prostitute" for the purposes of an article.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Belinda, I see and understand what you are trying to say. If the guy was a gay massage therapist I would certainly accept your position. The articles and video I have seen clearly state he is a gay prostitute not simply gay. Of course the media could be twisting it in which case my assumptions are too far but I think there would be an outrageous out cry from the gay community if they labelled a gay medical practitioner "a gay prostitute" for the purposes of an article.


Again - i ask - how would one know that one is a prostitute?

i have had patients whose parents support their families in nontraditional ways. Unless it is written in the chart, i have no clue about this. They don't walk around carrying a sign (so to speak) unless they are *working*. They dress and carry on social skills very similar to you and i.

[Wesley Smith]

Heartbreaking is all I can say. His immediate resignation speaks volumes. So sorry to read this. It was on the Yahoo headlines when I awakened at 4:30 AM this morning. Ted Haggard has been a strong voice for good causes. I would love to know what motivates a national Christian, spiritual leader to take such a side trip. Perhaps he will write his story some day. It seems to me that the distance between significant influence and shame is oh so far and yet oh so close. It is hard for me to fathom a man being a respected, influential spiritual leader one day and the subject of shameful (can't think of another word) sound bites the next. I'm guessing he would like to go back and reverse some actions.

The people of national stature I have known are constantly on alert and dogged for time and opinions. It is amazing to me that any of them can handle the constant pressure of travel and speaking and hobnobbing. Some of them I've known actually seem to thrive on the next publicity opportunity. Their need to be constantly up would drive me crazy. Unbelievable pressure. Give me the local pastorate any day when I'm nearly guaranteed to be home in bed with my wife every night.

Friend,

Wes

[Roland Hearn]

Again - i ask - how would one know that one is a prostitute?


Belinda, I'm not sure how to respond to that question. If you are actually able to imagine a situation when an adult man singles out an individual for a massage not knowing the guy is a prostitute then I am very happy for you. You have a wonderful perspective on the world.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Belinda, I'm not sure how to respond to that question. If you are actually able to imagine a situation when an adult man singles out an individual for a massage not knowing the guy is a prostitute then I am very happy for you. You have a wonderful perspective on the world.

*smiles* i truly trust that my responses don't indicate to you (or anyone else) that i am in support of the accused. i trust that my response are indicating that i don't have enough information to make a judgement call.

Having said that, i don't claim to have any set perspective upon the world. But, may i ask you if you have ever had a massage - - if you did - did the advertisement or information on the release form that you signed or was a disclaimer framed within the office to give any indication to the sexual activity of the one performing your massage?

i do know prostitutes on a personal basis. Some of them, i even call "friend". They know that i don't support this way of supporting their families. However, if i hadn't been told by them that they were prostitutes - i never would have known. They wear clothes just like i do - no see through stuff in the world of which i know them. They shares photos of their children, just like i do. They enjoys exchanging recipes and decorating tips, just like i do. They read and study the world around themselves, just like i do. They adore their grandparents, just like i do.

The differences - are things we didn't discuss often. i don't have much in common with the other side of their lives.

It takes two to be involved in a situation of which is being described. i am equally curious as to why this one *exposed* the story. IF the story is true was the one jilted for whatever reason? If one is in a relationship with another - one never turns on the other as long as the needs are being met in the relationship. Or perhaps, it was a set up from the very beginning - and this was the plan all along.

There is more to the story than simply a *christian leader messed up*.

[Carol Kane]

Perhaps the deafing silence is denial?? Not to be agitating but others have marched down that path of backsliding and we have said nothing as a church (all Chistiandom). But by the Grace Of God there go each one of us.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Perhaps the deafing silence is denial?? Not to be agitating but others have marched down that path of backsliding and we have said nothing as a church (all Chistiandom).


We don't like for sins to be exposed. We want to say "we can't judge". This is true, but that statement many times is a liscense to do whatever one desires at any time.



But by the Grace Of God there go each one of us.

Well said, Carol.

i can't help but think how any of us would respond if our *sins* would be put on the 7 o'clock news.

How long has it been that *revive us again* is our theme?

[Rick Morton]

I never ever ever watch TV preachers. They make me sick begging for money and tricking it out of older people.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I pray that the Lord will send a refiners fire through the Church that may leave some institutions damaged, but will make the Church a bride fit for Christ.

[Rich Hudson]

In fairness the context of the following prayer is directed at the elections next Tuesday. This is a cutting from the prayer offered by Pastor Haggard prior to his message this past Sunday:

"...And so heavenly Father give us grace and mercy. Father help us this next week and a half as we go into national elections and Lord we pray for our country.

Father, we pray that lies will be exposed. Father, we pray that deception would be exposed. Father, we pray that wisdom would come upon our electorate and that they would think with clarity and decisiveness."

[Roland Hearn]

Belinda,
You seem definitely committed to giving this man the benefit of the doubt. At one level I find that very admirable and almost certainly the way we would want to go if we were in fact dealing with situations such as this personally. When dealing with the real person behind this struggle your response is a reflection of grace. Because I know nothing about this situation and because much of what we write here is hypothetical my responses are an attempt to reflect the broader issues at risk here. It is certainly true that it is possible he went to someone for massage therapy and had no clue that he was a male prostitute. I wouldn’t put anything at risk on that probability though. It is extremely unlikely. My primary focus in writing what I first wrote was to highlight how absolutely essential it is for all of us to be in a position of receiving grace. Church leadership, by its very nature, can push people into situations where they exclusively receive grace as a result of the things they themselves are in control of, or at least think they are. In such a place, as struggles bring a person closer and closer to their own doubts and fears, they can find ways of addressing those situations that bring an immediate sense of release not a permanent one. When you are in this place it is a very short step from there to sin. At that point we need people around us who are administers of grace not just receivers of it from us.
It is equally true that we are all one small step from a similar place and we need to take stock. The answer is deeper relationships, more love, more openness, more honesty, more vulnerability. It is that those things are very often missing in a leaders life that they can fall so profoundly.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I'm amazed at the deafening silence here on the NazNet over the Ted Haggard problems in Colorado Springs. I'm not saying we should enter in with gossip...but I'm surprised it hasn't even been mentioned.

When I first read the story I nearly started a thread on the topic but decided to do so was gossip pure and simple. I am having a hard time discerning what possible positive result could come from us discussing the situation at this point.

Wilson

[Donna Adams]

he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[Billy Cox]

Well...this is still alleged.

Haggard apparently has admitted buying meth (but then throwing it away) but is denying have sex with the man.

Haggard's actions look very much like those of a man who knows he has been caught and is seeking to minimize the damage done to the organizations that he led.

Even if we consider only what Haggard has admitted to doing, buying meth (which is a crime) would by itself be the disgraceful end of your pastor's ministry, would it not?

[Hans Deventer]

I never ever ever watch TV preachers. They make me sick begging for money and tricking it out of older people.

As U2 said during the Rattle and Hum concert regarding "preachers of the Old Time Gospel Hour, stealing money from the poor": "The God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!!"

I liked that idea.

[Gina Stevenson]

'Could be -- aside from the meth deal, which is weird -- that a guy might try to find a guy who does massages rather than going to a female massage therapist, also ... to avoid male/female sorts of allegations? Perhaps there are few men massage therapists, and most are women, and he heard about some guy, and felt a massage might be relaxing? Don't know; have never checked out such an item re the ratio of men to women massage therapists.

But whatever, tho' some might think it a stretch, it could have been something that started out with someone try to be "careful" going to a male, being he's a male, rather than going to a female. Then whatever things he's had in his past (meth, perhaps?) caught up with him again? We don't know yet ..................

Belinda, I'm not sure how to respond to that question. If you are actually able to imagine a situation when an adult man singles out an individual for a massage not knowing the guy is a prostitute then I am very happy for you. You have a wonderful perspective on the world.

[Joel Merrill]

I read about it. I've seen scandals like this before. Sometimes the person was guilty and other times they were not. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. He is being accused of a shameful thing. I don't think it is beneficial in to talk about it. If he is found guilty, then I could understand someone speaking of their disgust. Right now he is innocent until proven guilty.

That's my feelings on the matter.

Joel
After reading this thread I see that there is more to the story than the brief account I read. However, I probably still won't follow this story. It will be sad and disgusting if he is found guilty but I don't need to know the details. I am not the type of person to watch afternoon talk shows or read gossip magazines. You can if you want but I just don't like thinking about such subjects. You can call it denial or sticking my head in the sand, but I can tell a cow pie stinks without putting my face in it and I can tell a disgusting story without reading all about it. That's the way I look at it.

Joel

[Hans Deventer]

he who is without sin cast the first stone.

That's one Bill Clinton would have loved to hear :basic05

[Cindi Hammons]

When I first read the story I nearly started a thread on the topic but decided to do so was gossip pure and simple. I am having a hard time discerning what possible positive result could come from us discussing the situation at this point.

Wilson


Well, thank you...that certainly made my day. :gen01 I'm sorry Wilson, but if any prominant Democrat was accused of the things this guy allegedly did, the Conservative Politicos of this board would be broadcasting it loudly and casting stones. My comments were not specifically in regard to Haggard, but in regard to the silence on the issue. I promise it has everything to do with politics. This has nothing to do with gossip and everything to the one sided,uh, converstations regarding politics on this board.

I won't be responding back.

[Barbara Moulton]

Well, thank you...that certainly made my day. :gen01 I'm sorry Wilson, but if any prominant Democrat was accused of the things this guy allegedly did, the Conservative Politicos of this board would be broadcasting it loudly and casting stones. My comments were not specifically in regard to Haggard, but in regard to the silence on the issue. I promise it has everything to do with politics. This has nothing to do with gossip and everything to the one sided,uh, converstations regarding politics on this board.

I won't be responding back.


I understand Cindi. You weren't asking for a discussion about this case, you were asking why many seem so eager to denounce the moral failures and/or mistakes of some individuals and not others.

The comments I have read on this board about the Clintons and Kerry have surprised me. Not because Clinton and Kerry are perfectly moral people. But because the attitude displayed towards them didn't seem in harmony with Christian mercy. The vitriol poured out on this board against the husband of Schiavo last summer floored me.

But in the last few weeks I have heard shocking things said by Rush Limbaugh (Michael J. FOx) and Ann Coulter (9-11 widows). A republican senator was found to have sent pornographic messages to pages and a leading Christian minister and evangelical admitted to buying meth and getting massages from a gay prostitute.

Some of these things were not mentioned at all. Some were only discussed when someone asked, "Why aren't we discussing this?"

I am not saying that we should have been talking about these things on this board. The fact that we choose to show temperance and mercy to some is laudable. It's too bad that we can't show the same to others as well.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Donna Adams]

Praying would do a whole lot more than us or anyone talking about it. Remember, it wasn't the world that crucified Jesus, it was the church.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Well, thank you...that certainly made my day. :gen01

Cindi,

I'm so sorry.

I can certainly see how this appeared to be an attack on you. I didn't intend it that way! I fully understood that you were not gossiping, but rather commenting on the lack of gossip about it.

I was actually trying to be a little confessional that I had nearly succumbed to the temptation to start gossiping about it. When I first read the article and then started up NazNet, one of my first thoughts was, "Good, no one else has mentioned it. I get to be the first." A moments reflection (Holy Spirit's voice?) had me feeling pretty horrible and embarrassed about that line of thinking...

Wilson

[Bruce Carriker]

I think it's pretty sad that one of the leading evangelicals in the world bought methamphetamines, regardless of the veracity of the other allegations.

My sadness is not a conviction of the man. It's a worry for the Church and how the world will respond. It's just pure sadness. I think that's quite appropriate.

But blessed be the name of the Lord.

Jeremy,

I agree...and he admits to this much of the allegation. And as for his contention that he bought them, but did not use them, I find that a little tough to accept. I completely trust my daughters, but I wouldn't accept that explanation from them without a WHOLE LOT of supporting evidence.

The press will have a field day with this...especially since he was the president of NAE.

[BobHunt]

I wait to see as far as this new one who has been accused. But then I do think that some other tv evangelists have ruined it for a few today that are good and do deserve support in their ministry. We view one of these, (I wont say which one). I am so sad that some evangelists have given the church a bad name.

[Cindi Hammons]

No problem Wilson.

[Gerald Spear]

The enemy loves it when the "church" is silent, tolerant, shows mercy and temperance , when a sinful act is uncovered.

Each time that we are exposed to a questionable act and we show a degree of tolerance, it lessens out degree of objections.

The enemy loves it each time we weaken out objections, we become more tolerant with each occurance until after a while we accept the act to be a normal occurance.

The enemy loves it when we can find a phrase in a scripture such as "Casting a stone", to quote, to justify why one should be careful to never voice an objection to any questionable act in fear of being called "judging a person".

The enemy likes to heap the guilt factor on christians, if they should recognize a sin and comment on it.

When the devil came up with the "act of tolerance", and he persuaded the church to popularise it's use, he found a way for the church to advance his mission. Each time that the church is tolerant with sinful acts, the devil gains a step and the church losses a step.

We as Christians are not called to be a judge, but, God gave each of us the ability to compare good and evil and to make a decision as to which is right.

I have observed over a number of years that the Naz. ch. is reluctant to make a statement concerning any and all high profile sinful newsmakers.

Contrary to the popular statement, "innocent until proven guilty", in a vast number of cases like this one, it usually is guilty until proven innicent, which usually is the case. ( the person will usually check into a rehab center for a few days and all is forgiven)

Jesus, was not tolerant with sinners, he had mercy, but he did not give them a free ride, He called a sin, a sin. He judged them, then He showed mercy.

So, do not ask the question "what would Jesus do"

[David Cash]

Wish it was stopping with allegations. His church's investegation have led to his resignation. I still wouldn't be surprised if the story has been exagerated. It is very sad, nonetheless. I suppose I should be angry, but I'm more just mystified and saddened than anything else.

David Cash

[Bob Evans]

I have mixed feelings about all of this. I work with people each day who give in to temptation in these areas and I know the pain it causes for them and their families as well. He really need grace and mercey because I have a feeling he already has guilt.

But on the other hand I am a little frustrated by this whole situation. Varius Christian causes spend most of their time lobbying for the legislation of good virtue. And while I applaud the causes there is a part of me that feels like we need Jesus more than we need legislation. And when those in the Jesus/politics business fall it makes it hard for everyone. Whatever need he had he found a way to meet it and it was good for him but made it hard for the rest of us.

I pray for him, his church, his family and the cause of Christ. Because of him we really are going to need it.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

...I am a little frustrated by this whole situation. Varius Christian causes spend most of their time lobbying for the legislation of good virtue. And while I applaud the causes there is a part of me that feels like we need Jesus more than we need legislation. And when those in the Jesus/politics business fall it makes it hard for everyone. Whatever need he had he found a way to meet it and it was good for him but made it hard for the rest of us.

I pray for him, his church, his family and the cause of Christ. Because of him we really are going to need it.

Thanks, Bob.

I'm very surprised at myself for how much this situation has upset me. I've never been a big fan of Haggard's ways, but I feel for him like I'm not sure I've ever felt for anyone that I've never met. That may be an overstatement, but I am deeply saddened for him, his wife, his children, definitely his church, and the Church.

[Joel Merrill]

The enemy loves it when the "church" is silent, tolerant, shows mercy and temperance , when a sinful act is uncovered.

Each time that we are exposed to a questionable act and we show a degree of tolerance, it lessens out degree of objections.

The enemy loves it each time we weaken out objections, we become more tolerant with each occurance until after a while we accept the act to be a normal occurance.

The enemy loves it when we can find a phrase in a scripture such as "Casting a stone", to quote, to justify why one should be careful to never voice an objection to any questionable act in fear of being called "judging a person".

The enemy likes to heap the guilt factor on christians, if they should recognize a sin and comment on it.

When the devil came up with the "act of tolerance", and he persuaded the church to popularise it's use, he found a way for the church to advance his mission. Each time that the church is tolerant with sinful acts, the devil gains a step and the church losses a step.

We as Christians are not called to be a judge, but, God gave each of us the ability to compare good and evil and to make a decision as to which is right.

I have observed over a number of years that the Naz. ch. is reluctant to make a statement concerning any and all high profile sinful news makers.

Contrary to the popular statement, "innocent until proven guilty", in a vast number of cases like this one, it usually is guilty until proven innocent, which usually is the case. ( the person will usually check into a rehab center for a few days and all is forgiven)

Jesus, was not tolerant with sinners, he had mercy, but he did not give them a free ride, He called a sin, a sin. He judged them, then He showed mercy.

So, do not ask the question "what would Jesus do"
Jesus knew if a person was guilty or not, we don't. In this world where so many people are looking for scandals and conspiracies, it doesn't hurt to be cautious until all the facts are in. Now that the New Life Church's independent investigative board recommended removal, saying he was guilty "of sexually immoral conduct," I can say that is enough for me. Now I will say that is it very sad and disgusting and I worry about the fallout too. No matter how hard he repents, if he repents, much of the damage can never be undone. His ministry is over and I hope none of his followers lose faith because of him. At least he stepped down willingly without a fight. I'm still not going to follow this story besides what I see in the headlines. This type of thing makes me sick.

Joel

[Marsha Lynn]

Jesus, was not tolerant with sinners, he had mercy, but he did not give them a free ride, He called a sin, a sin. He judged them, then He showed mercy.

Uhm... can you share a specific scripture passage as an example of this? In John 3:17, Jesus specifically said that he did not come into the world to condemn the world. I'm mentally searching the gospels for a time when he first passed judgment on someone and then later showed mercy to them (following repentance, I presume?) and coming up blank. Have I missed it somehow?

Marsha

[Bruce Carriker]

The enemy loves it when the "church" is silent, tolerant, shows mercy and temperance , when a sinful act is uncovered.

Each time that we are exposed to a questionable act and we show a degree of tolerance, it lessens out degree of objections.

The enemy loves it each time we weaken out objections, we become more tolerant with each occurance until after a while we accept the act to be a normal occurance.

The enemy loves it when we can find a phrase in a scripture such as "Casting a stone", to quote, to justify why one should be careful to never voice an objection to any questionable act in fear of being called "judging a person".

The enemy likes to heap the guilt factor on christians, if they should recognize a sin and comment on it.

When the devil came up with the "act of tolerance", and he persuaded the church to popularise it's use, he found a way for the church to advance his mission. Each time that the church is tolerant with sinful acts, the devil gains a step and the church losses a step.

We as Christians are not called to be a judge, but, God gave each of us the ability to compare good and evil and to make a decision as to which is right.

I have observed over a number of years that the Naz. ch. is reluctant to make a statement concerning any and all high profile sinful newsmakers.

Contrary to the popular statement, "innocent until proven guilty", in a vast number of cases like this one, it usually is guilty until proven innicent, which usually is the case. ( the person will usually check into a rehab center for a few days and all is forgiven)

Jesus, was not tolerant with sinners, he had mercy, but he did not give them a free ride, He called a sin, a sin. He judged them, then He showed mercy.

So, do not ask the question "what would Jesus do"

Actually, Gerald, I think what the enemy loves is when the Church self-destructs and compromises its witness through its hypocrisy. I can't blame those who don't want to ask the "what would Jesus do" question, but I do recall he said something about removing the plank in our own eye before worrying about the speck in another's eye. It appears we have a pretty big plank to deal with here.

I don't know that the silence here is motivated by partisan politics or genuine compassion for the man, his family, and his church. But partisan politics aside, I wonder what the reaction here would have been had these revelations involved someone like Tony Campolo, Jim Wallis, or Ron Sider....or, eek!!! :eek: ...the new presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church USA.

[Billy Cox]

Wish it was stopping with allegations. His church's investegation have led to his resignation. I still wouldn't be surprised if the story has been exagerated. It is very sad, nonetheless. I suppose I should be angry, but I'm more just mystified and saddened than anything else.

David Cash

I'm trying to envision what possible difference it would make if some of the details are exaggerated. So he bought meth but threw it away. Perhaps he had a three-year relationship with a gay prostitute, but they never went 'all the way.'

Maybe we should be relieved that he wasn't raping teenage boys at his church. I suppose there is always a silver lining.

[Donna Adams]

I don't think Jesus was working for the enemy when he said, "he who is without sin cast the first stone."
And neither am I when I quote it.
and isn't God the judge and not us?

[Sharon Isley]

This has made me ask some very uncomfortable questions. These are not directed at Ted Haggard, so much as myself. My heart breaks for him, his family, his church. But this along with some other circumstances, has forced to me to take a hard look at the nature of fallen man.

1. What happens in a person's mind that allows a person to do the very thing they hate? This is like seeing Romans 7 lived out. What am I capable of doing, if I get my focus off of Jesus for even one moment?

2. How many people who are gay, like Mr. Jones, have avoided the church because they feel judged and outcast by our focusing on a political issue like gay marraige, when we should be focusing instead on knowing Jesus, recognizing that homosexuality and all other sins are a symptom of THE sin, and not the root problem? The anger expressed by Mr. Jones is legitimate. It seems to me that we should be loving people right where they are, just as Jesus loved the prostitute and the social outcasts, and let His love take care of their sins, instead of trying to legislate morality. Because of making laws worked, we wouldn't have needed the New Covenant.

3. How does this kind of fall affect the church? Not the reputation, though that is the first thing we think of. But our authenticity. Will people look at a situation like this and think, if what he preaches didn't work for HIM, then why should I believe?

May God protect us all from heading down the same road, because the more I see stuff like this, and the more I see myself for what I really am, the more I'm convinced that we all can end up doing the very things we say we could never do, if we allow ourselves to focus on ANYTHING other than Jesus.

[Gina Stevenson]

Can't believe I'm even writing more in this thread, but when I read this:
"And while I applaud the causes there is a part of me that feels like we need Jesus more than we need legislation."

I kept thinking, while reading the rest of the post and those following: "Why can't we have 'both/and' ... it doesn't really need to be an 'either/or' ... does it? Thanks for your post, BTW, Bob. And, Jeremy -- others, too -- this is something that makes one sad. But, as was also said, he at least stepped down willingly.

Apparently Sharon and I were writing at the same time, because I didn't see her post until I posted mine. Thanks for adding, too, Sharon, the thought about each of us examining ourselves ... and that upon which we find ourselves focusing. BTW, hope your "new life" is going well ... and that you're enjoying utilizing some of your former education at the moment, in spite of its being perhaps a 'temporary sidestep' from that which you thought you would be doing "forever."

[David Cash]

I'm trying to envision what possible difference it would make if some of the details are exaggerated. So he bought meth but threw it away. Perhaps he had a three-year relationship with a gay prostitute, but they never went 'all the way.'

Maybe we should be relieved that he wasn't raping teenage boys at his church. I suppose there is always a silver lining.

The difference, as I would see it would obviously have to do with how exaggerated the stories were.

For instance, if his original story that he yielded to the temptation to buy meth, then repented before using it is actually true, it is a whole different story than if he repeatedly bought meth and used it. He would still have broken the law, but at least his conscience would have won in the end.

You're right, it is pretty hard to put a positive spin on dealings with a prostitute. I suppose he could have thought he was dealing with a massage therapist or some such. (I'm just prudish enough that I can't quite think positiviely about the whole concept of massage therapy, but that's probably another issue.)

Now that he's confessed to a history of immorality, it kind of makes the point moot anyway. I guess I was hoping that somehow it wasn't really true. Oh, and for the record, I had maybe seen his name in relationship to the National Association of Evangelicals or something, but he wasn't someone whose activities I was familiar with until the sinful ones got into the headlines.

David Cash

[David Cash]

Uhm... can you share a specific scripture passage as an example of this? In John 3:17, Jesus specifically said that he did not come into the world to condemn the world. I'm mentally searching the gospels for a time when he first passed judgment on someone and then later showed mercy to them (following repentance, I presume?) and coming up blank. Have I missed it somehow?

Marsha

If I can be so bold as to answer a question that rightfully belongs to someone else.

When Jesus healed the paralytic his words were "Your sins are forgiven". (See Luke 5:20 for the exact wording.) The effect of these words is judgment--Jesus identifies the man as a sinner, even if He does so indirectly. The effect is also mercy. The sins were forgiven and the man was healed.

Christ's mercy is only available to sinners. Until the reality of sin is recognized there can be no forgiveness and no mercy.

I guess I don't want to see Christians rushing into a feeding frenzy where we rush to condemn those who fail. At the same time, if we pretend that all is well when sin is committed we do a disservice both the the church and the sinning one. We do have to take a stand against sin. The problem comes when our goal is to smash others instead of restore them.

At least that's my take on the bigger question here. Probably it's in line with what you were thinking too.

David Cash

[Hans Deventer]

1. What happens in a person's mind that allows a person to do the very thing they hate? This is like seeing Romans 7 lived out. What am I capable of doing, if I get my focus off of Jesus for even one moment?

Anything. Any holiness we have is not innate, it is only maintained by our relationship to Jesus.

3. How does this kind of fall affect the church? Not the reputation, though that is the first thing we think of. But our authenticity. Will people look at a situation like this and think, if what he preaches didn't work for HIM, then why should I believe?

They might. Reminds me of a quote I read the other day.

"Generally, what I find is that the ordinary people who come to church are basically running their lives on their own, utilizing 'the arm of the flesh'—their natural abilities—to negotiate their way," he says. "They believe there is a God and they need to check in with him. But they don't have any sense that he is an active agent in their lives. As a result, they don't become disciples of Jesus. They consume his merits and the services of the church. … Discipleship is no essential part of Christianity today."

He says these problems are theologically grounded: "We don't preach life in the kingdom of God through faith in Jesus as an existential reality that leads to discipleship and then character transformation." He adds, "When you don't have character transformation in a large number of your people, then when something happens, everything flies apart and you have people acting in the most ungodly ways imaginable." http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/september/27.45.html


So the question is, do we actually teach character transformation? Or do we just add some theology to one's life? And if the latter is the case, we should not be surprised at what happened with this man.

May God protect us all from heading down the same road, because the more I see stuff like this, and the more I see myself for what I really am, the more I'm convinced that we all can end up doing the very things we say we could never do, if we allow ourselves to focus on ANYTHING other than Jesus.

Very true. So right now, I'm trying more than ever to focus on Jesus. To get to know Him. To spend time with Him. To listen in silence. Perhaps it sounds like a mystic, but the only thing wrong with that way is when people withdraw from the world. We were meant to walk with God. I think that should become the focus of the church's teaching. How do you walk with God? How do you learn to meditate even when doing your daily chores? How to "practice the presence of God", as Brother Lawrence called it? Unless we fill our "God shaped hole" with Him, we'll end up filling it with anything else that is not Him and that will led us totally down, either in the short or in the long run. And yes, that even goes for Prov 18:22.

[William Hunter]

Amen, Wes. I have no desire to even be a DS with all they have to do, not htat anyone would ask me to be involved in such a position with the questions I ask at times.

I wonder of Haggard took to time to keep his devotional vibrant, with its resultant intimacy with Christ. I wonder if he had a personal prayer team of laypeople in his church who built a daily wall around their pastor for God's presence and power and protection in his life and the life of his family---or did his congregation just pray broad and generic prayers such as "bless our pastor," and then get on with whatever else they want to do.

All this causes me to wonder how he apparently had let his personal spiritual life slip so far as to fall like this. Personally, I hear the warning in this for all of us, especially pastors. I'm not so ready to condemn him as I am to search my own heart to see if there is "any offensive way in me." I pray for his family, and his own spiritual restoration.






Heartbreaking is all I can say. His immediate resignation speaks volumes. So sorry to read this. It was on the Yahoo headlines when I awakened at 4:30 AM this morning. Ted Haggard has been a strong voice for good causes. I would love to know what motivates a national Christian, spiritual leader to take such a side trip. Perhaps he will write his story some day. It seems to me that the distance between significant influence and shame is oh so far and yet oh so close. It is hard for me to fathom a man being a respected, influential spiritual leader one day and the subject of shameful (can't think of another word) sound bites the next. I'm guessing he would like to go back and reverse some actions.

The people of national stature I have known are constantly on alert and dogged for time and opinions. It is amazing to me that any of them can handle the constant pressure of travel and speaking and hobnobbing. Some of them I've known actually seem to thrive on the next publicity opportunity. Their need to be constantly up would drive me crazy. Unbelievable pressure. Give me the local pastorate any day when I'm nearly guaranteed to be home in bed with my wife every night.

Friend,

Wes

[Marsha Lynn]

I guess I don't want to see Christians rushing into a feeding frenzy where we rush to condemn those who fail. At the same time, if we pretend that all is well when sin is committed we do a disservice both the the church and the sinning one.

Then we are guilty of unending disservice to the church and the "righteous" sinners within it - the proud, the envious, the gossip, the back-biter, and the glutton, to name a few.

The problem with pointing out specific sins is that it necessarily leads to a false identification of some sins as worse than others. Proverbs 6:16 says that haughty eyes are detestable to the Lord, the exact same Hebrew word that is used in Leviticus 18. Pride and haughtiness get much more negative attention in the Word than sexual sins. (2 Samual 22:28, Psalm 101:5, Proverbs 8:13, Isaiah 10:12, Ezekiel 28:17, Amos 6:8, James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5, to pull out a few sample passages) There is no room in the kingdom of God for the proud. Yet, I have seen countless examples of haughty men and women condemning those who are involved in sexual sins, as though they themselves were sinless and being revered by the church rather than being cast out as detestable in the sight of God! How can this be?

There are some actions that wreck our relationship with God and other people which are easier to define and identify than other actions which are just as destructive to those relationships but less obvious. Only those who are completely free from every relationship-destroying fault dare point in condemnation at those whose faults are obvious to everyone. And at the moment they raise their hand to do that pointing, they are no longer qualified to do so.

There isn't the least bit of ambiguity in North America concerning the stand of the evangelical church on homosexuality. If all of us shifted our focus completely to grace and healing and never spoke another condemning word, we could not in a lifetime undo the harm that has been done by making a tough stand against that particular sin (and those who commit it) the litmus test of spirituality. I can't imagine a single person in our society with homosexual inclinations who is not aware that the evangelical church considers them a blot on the righteousness of humanity. In my opinion, it is the greatest hypocrisy of our day, and I think last week's events make that view even more obvious. Until we reach the place where we can approach gossips, adulterers, the gay community, the envious, and the proud with the exact same level of grace, we have far to go.

Marsha

[Brad Mercer]

Until we reach the place where we can approach gossips, adulterers, the gay community, the envious, and the proud with the exact same level of grace, we have far to go.

Marsha

Have I told you lately that I love you?

You almost never write anything on NazNet that isn't thoughtful, insightful, gracious, honest, vulnerable, clear and carefully worded. You are one of my NazNet heroes. With all the frustrations and obstacles to spiritual joy and freedom in your life that you describe so poignantly here, I still want to be like you when I grow up. I know that you, like the rest of us, do indeed have far to go, but gracious I think you're heading in the right direction.

(Sorry, I just didn't think hitting the "Thanks" button was enough this time.)

Brad

[Barbara Moulton]

I can't imagine a single person in our society with homosexual inclinations who is not aware that the evangelical church considers them a blot on the righteousness of humanity. In my opinion, it is the greatest hypocrisy of our day, and I think last week's events make that view even more obvious. Until we reach the place where we can approach gossips, adulterers, the gay community, the envious, and the proud with the exact same level of grace, we have far to go.

Marsha

The truth is, I find it easer to show grace to him as a man struggling with homosexuality then for his actions he took in speaking out against homosexuals and for continuing in a position of leadership despite the darkness of his private life.

Have any of you seen the clip of Haggard from the movie "Jesus Camp"? Appalling...in light of these revelations.

The "h" sin that bothers my heart the most in this case is not "homosexuality". It is "hypocrisy".

Every year, in my denomination, I am asked to fill out a form concerning my personal and professional life. I must answer questions as to whether the life I am living is in accordance with the committments I have made as a minister of the gospel.

They don't ask me if I have lived a sinless life. They want to know if there is a continuing issue in my life which is in conflict with my role as a Christian minister (and specifically a Wesleyan minister).

Every year, I examine my heart. I see imperfections. I see time when I could have been a better ambassador for Christ, perhaps held my tongue or given a better effort at something He asked me to do. But after prayer I check "no". Because I truly believe that I despite my limitations, I have not been involved, on a continuing basis, in something that is specifically prohibited for those who are in Christian leadership. And that is what my denomination expects of me.

So I admit here, I struggle with grace. Not grace for the homosexual. But grace for the man who deceived many and publically and enthusiastically condemned the sin that he practiced himself in secret.

I'm not proud of that struggle. But I take comfort in the fact that Jesus Himself seemed to have the same inclination to be harsher with the religiously righteous hypocrsy then sexual sin.

It's not that He wouldn't have shown grace to any who repented of that behaviour. But He did seem to hold those who indulged in that behaviour to a higher accountabilty here on earth.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

The truth is, I find it easer to show grace to him as a man struggling with homosexuality then for his actions he took in speaking out against homosexuals and for continuing in a position of leadership despite the darkness of his private life.

Have any of you seen the clip of Haggard from the movie "Jesus Camp"? Appalling...in light of these revelations.

The "h" sin that bothers my heart the most in this case is not "homosexuality". It is "hypocrisy".

Every year, in my denomination, I am asked to fill out a form concerning my personal and professional life. I must answer questions as to whether the life I am living is in accordance with the committments I have made as a minister of the gospel.

They don't ask me if I have lived a sinless life. They want to know if there is a continuing issue in my life which is in conflict with my role as a Christian minister (and specifically a Wesleyan minister).

Every year, I examine my heart. I see imperfections. I see time when I could have been a better ambassador for Christ, perhaps held my tongue or given a better effort at something He asked me to do. But after prayer I check "no". Because I truly believe that I despite my limitations, I have not been involved, on a continuing basis, in something that is specifically prohibited for those who are in Christian leadership. And that is what my denomination expects of me.

So I admit here, I struggle with grace. Not grace for the homosexual. But grace for the man who deceived many and publically and enthusiastically condemned the sin that he practiced himself in secret.

I'm not proud of that struggle. But I take comfort in the fact that Jesus Himself seemed to have the same inclination to be harsher with the religiously righteous hypocrsy then sexual sin.

It's not that He wouldn't have shown grace to any who repented of that behaviour. But He did seem to hold those who indulged in that behaviour to a higher accountabilty here on earth.

i have seen this response more than once. In fact, i have come to know that if someone is on a stump about something - that there is a reason. It is usually the opposite pole. We balance ourselves more than we realize. i suspect that he was preaching hard toward himself more than to anyone else. One article stated that he has struggled with this all his life. To whom could he go for help and receive it - - without the risk of judgement and loss of his calling? It is very possible that he only hope he felt he had for his soul was to preach to himself - crying out for release.

i know for a fact, that the higher up you are - the less help there is available.

It is my thought that we, Christians, are a sad mixed up bunch of folks when it comes to issues such as this.

[Barbara Moulton]

One article stated that he has struggled with this all his life. To whom could he go for help and receive it - - without the risk of judgement and loss of his calling? It is very possible that he only hope he felt he had for his soul was to preach to himself - crying out for release.


And that's the Catch-22 isn't it?

If we join others in creating an environment that is so hostile towards those who struggle with one particular sin, we will find it difficult, if not impossible, to admit our own failings in that area.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

And that's the Catch-22 isn't it?

If we join others in creating an environment that is so hostile towards those who struggle with one particular sin, we will find it difficult, if not impossible, to admit our own failings in that area.

no - i don't completely agree. i speak of this after listen to several who have struggled with this issue. When we were in Kansas, i was a part of the outreach toward the homosexual community that KCFC offered. i think it is a way to cry from the soul for help toward God Almighty. After all, He is the only one who can make us *socially acceptable*.

It wasn't safe for him to admit his failings in this area.

Shoot - it isn't safe for me to admit far *less* in my area. Recently something occurred that brought this thought home in a real way. i am still learning from that one. What am i learning? To be less transparent - not more.

Often, pastors have said - three fingers are pointing back at me. How many times does a pastor need to speak upon a subject of which they struggle?

Garry and i try to lead an authentic open life before our people. We try to acknowledge our weaknesses and strengths. Some can handle it and some can't. Now - that is the catch 22.

[Gina Stevenson]

What am i learning? To be less transparent - not more ..........................

Garry and i try to lead an authentic open life before our people. We try to acknowledge our weaknesses and strengths. Some can handle it and some can't. Now - that is the catch 22.

Unfortunately, sometimes ... recall that, after learning to speak up/out, rather than barely dare speak [grew up rather shy, barely daring to speak my mind], the thing I needed to learn was to not reveal quite so much. [I mean, it felt so good to finally dare speak up! ;)]

So, it's easy to go from barely daring to speak --- when one comes a long ways out of one's "shell" --- to overdoing it. So, it does involve a balance, I've learned over the years, too. Can still think of some times when I could say less ... not to be deceitful, but to only reveal what people can "handle"---not totally misinterpret/taking wrong--- if you're not sure who's listening.

[Marsha Lynn]

Thanks, Brad. I am humbled by your kind words. If I have anything worthwhile to say at all, it can be traced back to good resources. I recently obtained and read Love, Acceptance, and Forgiveness based on recommendations by Hans and you and Roland. It was excellent. Thank you for all the input and encouragement you have provided.

Marsha

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Drury has an interesting article on this situation -- I also found reading the comments to the article interesting.

Personally, I lean toward his #3 as being the biggest factor here.

http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/bigger.they.are.htm

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Thank you so very much for posting this article, Scott. The article is very well written and i believe very much on target.

i agree with you, i think number 3 is the main reason.

"Father, heal our land."