How Do You Explain Allah?? [Archive]

Marsha Lynn

9th November 2006, 11:56 AM (11:56)

So many claim that Allah is God. But Muslims don't believe that Jesus is Savior. I personally think that Allah is a god but he is NOT God. I guess they say he is god because he is considered the highest heavenly entity and over all.

So, how do you briefly explain to someone that Allah is not God?

I don't. In Acts 17 Paul took the "unknown God" at Athens and gave Him a name and character. He didn't discard the concept of the Almighty that the Athenians had already embraced. He simply opened their minds to better understanding of the nature of that God.

From my point of view, the highest heavenly entity who is over all IS God, regardless of what name is used or how poor the understanding someone has of Him (whether they are Muslim or Christian or any other religion). The challenge is to present a clearer picture of the nature of that entity as revealed in the Bible. However, I realize that many people will disagree with me. Since there are no Muslims or wannabe Muslims in my life wishing to discuss the nature of Allah/Dios/God/Yahwah and many people who are convinced that Allah is not God, I generally opt out of this type of discussion, particularly since I have not read the Qua'ran to have a clear grasp of how Allah is truly presented in the sacred book of Islam.

Marsha

Andrea Larabee

9th November 2006, 12:29 PM (12:29)

Thanks Marsha,

I guess I could have added "or is he God" to my questions. But like you, I'm not totally educated in this area and totally want to avoid arguments over it.

Allah could be God if language difference is the matter.

I am curious about "who" wrote the Qua'ran. Whoever did changed much of the Holy Bible. I suppose they might worship whoever wrote or inspired the Qua'ran.

Hoping I did not step into waters too deep with these questions. :gen03 It certainly was not my intentions and is why I asked to "briefly" state how one would answer it. I like your answer though Marsha!

Billy Cox

9th November 2006, 12:55 PM (12:55)

Allah was Muhammed's (sp?) favorite pagan idol -- according to Dave Hunt's Judgment Day (http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Day-Islam-Israel-Nations/dp/1928660320/sr=8-1/qid=1163089543/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0390815-4298568?ie=UTF8&s=books) book. He goes to great length to discuss/expose the pagan, idol worshipping history of Islam. I'm about half-way through it.

I would not look to a convinced atheist to explain what the Bible says. Likewise, I would not look to a Christian apologist to explain what the Koran says.

It is easy to see the differences between the religion of Islam and the religion of Christianity. It is not so easy to say that their faith is false and ours is true.

Bruce Carriker

9th November 2006, 03:52 PM (15:52)

Roland Hearn

9th November 2006, 03:52 PM (15:52)

I don't. In Acts 17 Paul took the "unknown God" at Athens and gave Him a name and character. He didn't discard the concept of the Almighty that the Athenians had already embraced. He simply opened their minds to better understanding of the nature of that God.

From my point of view, the highest heavenly entity who is over all IS God, regardless of what name is used or how poor the understanding someone has of Him (whether they are Muslim or Christian or any other religion). The challenge is to present a clearer picture of the nature of that entity as revealed in the Bible. However, I realize that many people will disagree with me. Since there are no Muslims or wannabe Muslims in my life wishing to discuss the nature of Allah/Dios/God/Yahwah and many people who are convinced that Allah is not God, I generally opt out of this type of discussion, particularly since I have not read the Qua'ran to have a clear grasp of how Allah is truly presented in the sacred book of Islam.

Marsha

That is an excellent perspective as far as I can see Marsha. The idea of "God" is part of being human. Paul says in Romans 1 that we are without excuse because nature itself declares His reality. Without guidance that innate sense, longing for satisfaction, will come up with its own understanding. That is the reason for the many religious perspectives around the world. Condemnation of that process only brings about defensiveness, as world history reveals. Paul's sermon in Athens exactly understands the process that people go through. The final conclusions of that process may be wrong but the beginning point is God Himself. If we increase our sense of the worth of humanity no matter where they are from, validate the processes they have gone through individually, historically and culturally, perhaps we earn the right to lead them back to the starting point. Or we can simply draw swords and force them to, but over the last couple of thousand years that hasn't proved very successful. In truth more successful for those we have wanted to convert than for the crusaders.

Marsha Lynn

9th November 2006, 04:40 PM (16:40)

You know, I've heard speculation that when Paul wrote to the Corinthians and reminded them that he didn't come to them with eloquent speech he was recalling that he adjusted his approach after Athens. Rather than apologetics he went back to simply preaching the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

Even if he regretted his approach in Athens, however, I wonder if in retrospect, he wished he would have discounted their "unknown god" as a false diety or simply preached Christ without reference to the altars to various dieties already in town.

I agree with you that discounting someone's present religious beliefs isn't the best start for winning them over to your own. The other thing that bothers me is the possibility that some of those who worship Allah have indeed tapped into a relationship with the Creator of the universe by the route of Romans 1. In that case, to call Allah a false god or the devil is blasphemy. Combined with the 'detestable' arrogance such a proclamation sometimes reveals, it makes me want to stay far away from that position. Regardless of what diety they are currently worshiping, telling them the story of God's love and grace as revealed in Christ should be as an offer of living water to one parched with thirst. The power of the gospel still resides in the message of love hanging on a cross.

Marsha

Bob Carabbio

9th November 2006, 11:54 PM (23:54)

Allah is pretty clearly God - the ONE God - etc. There's talk of him being The "Moon God" who was named "allah", but the bottom line is that he's what Islam THINKS God is. They have fallen afoul of the "graven image" commandment, and manufactured God in the way that Mohammed discribed Him. And only the Quran in the opriginal language can claim to be "god's Word".

Arguably "Allah" and OUR Concept of God have very little in common, and Jesus, while being miraculously born - IS NOT "God" because that would be polytheism. And he didn't die - although he gave the APPEARANCE of dying on the cross.

Also totally missing is any concept of a saviour - OR any need for one whatsoever since salvation is actually a corruption of portions of Old Testament Mosaic tradition when one was justified (in their opinion) by works - living well, and being obedient to the requirements of 6th century Arabian culture.

There's little question that Islamic process in and of itself is worthless salvifically, and since the followers thereof are essentially "lost" spiritually, all you have is human nature and intellectualism - which like all humanity is essentially evil in nature. SO there's nothing to prevent 'em from doing anything their hearts and lusts lead 'em toward. Jesus is the ONLY way, and since Jesus in that capacity is totally foreign to 'em - they're unsaved and (shudder) VERY religious.

Theological discussion with a knowledgible Moslem will be intensely frustrating - essentially the same as any dealings with hard-shell fundamentalists and Romanists. It's made even more difficult because they will CLAIM to know the scriptures, but really don't - AND don't accept anything in 'em as being definitive - because they have been hopelessly adulterated by repeated translation, and willfully altered to reflect the Christian viewpoint instead of the ACTUAL truth - which is Islamic.

Only the Holy Spirit could break through an expertly constructed and finished wall like the Islamic one.

As the U.S. continues to wage war against God, my gut feel is that generations here in the not-so distant future will have to deal with the real satanic nature of Islam up front and personal.

The trick, of course is to deal with the PERSON - and not his silly belief in Arabic culture. IF we as Christians have "the goods" that our churches TELL US that we have - then we should, by living in unrelenting victory in life, be able to demonstrate the truth of our faith,and the absolute assurance in Him that we possess.

Bruce Carriker

10th November 2006, 12:47 PM (12:47)

Bob Carabbio

10th November 2006, 09:11 PM (21:11)

I am a Christian BY FAITH. Therefore I BELIEVE that Islam is a false religion. But I also know that they can make the same accusation against us and on the same grounds: We've "manufactured God" in the way Abraham, Moses, John, Paul, etc, have described him.

Well of course they can - they are basically a fundamentalist group which has cooked up a VERY complete fantasy about who/what God is. And they can prove that to their own satisfaction. That's why intellectual arguement will just "bounce off" 'em.

Doesn't Judaism reject Jesus, using the same polytheism argument? And don't they (Jews) also reject the resurrection? On those counts, Jews and Muslims have much more in common with one another, than either has with Christianity. And yet, most folks here have no problem saying that we worship the same God as the Jews.

Sure they do, and since Jesus was (to them) a blasphemer, a liar and a pretender, they probably would reject the ressurection as part of the package. The Muslims ACCEPT Jesus (Isa) as a legitimate prophet (even though they've officially "lost" his Gospel) and even allow his virgin birth.
But in many ways Islam is a very corrupt form of old Judaism.

Jesus, addressing the woman at the well, didn't question that she was worshipping the same God - he only told her that she was doing so without knowledge - which the Jews had - even though they have a CLUE what it actually meant.

I thought we were waging war against terrorism.

That too, but since we ARE NOT trying to (nor would we even know how to) bring the truth of Christianity into the middle east, we will not accomplish that goal - ever. What we do or don't do in the Middle East is pretty unimportant to the world terrorism situation.

The BEST we can hope for is to "poison" islamic beliefs with concepts of democracy and free enterprise and slow 'em down a bit. But we will probably only leave a bunch or warring factions and tribal confusion when we get sick of it and pull out. There is no "peace" in the Islamic package - because it can't change or bind human nature. They can't even get along without killing each other.

That the U.S. is fighting to eliminate God from our society is VERY "old news". We pay the folks on TV hansomly to poison us with their filth, misinformation, and constant blasphemy - and we LOVE it!

David Cash

10th November 2006, 09:54 PM (21:54)

I've heard two different "educated" viewpoints on Islam. My Christian highschool curriculum said that Mohammed combined elements of Judaism and Christsianity with his own ideas. In that case, Allah and God would be the same.

I recently listened to a CD by an expert on religions with a doctor's degree. He said that Allah was one of many tribal deities that Mohammed demanded others follow exclusively. Mohammed claimed to be given revelations by God. I can't remember if the collection of those revelations copied by others is the Koran or another book they take seriously. (Sorry, the CD was lengthy.) The guy on the CD seemed fairly balanced and is an evangelical. He has both studied about Islam in books and by travelling/living in Moslem countries. I think his web site would be www.roncarlson.com or something like that.

Bruce, my understanding of the New Testament is that the God of Israel and the Father of Jesus Christ is the same God. The Trinity is a deeper revelation of that God.

As a Christian I remain committed to the belief that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. In that context, showing love and explaining the truth God has revealed through Moses, Jesus, Paul, etc. to Muslims would be the way we'd have to share the Gospel with them. I think we can do that without fully understanding whether Allah and God are the same. If any of us ever get that chance, maybe by the time the discussion is over, we'll understand their beliefs better as well.

David Cash

Dale Cozby

11th November 2006, 01:07 AM (01:07)

Islam and Christianity are mutually exclusive and in many ways diametrically opposed to each other.

Mohammed of course was a false prophet. Either that or we are the ones who have it all wrong.

I believe the starting point is to accept this truth:

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

and this: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity." Jeremiah 29:11-14

From there we can begin to explore the marks of a true prophet and a false prophet. Since I am convinced we live in the last days. And many Muslims do too, this is a great place to discuss our faiths on "neutral ground" Here is an excellent Muslim site about what they believe is the endtimes prohecies.

http://www.endoftimes.net/index2.html

Both Muslims and Christian and Jew can agree that the test of a prophet is the same. Namely, What they say has to come true and not be false. If we study the Old and New testament prophecies and compare to the Islamic ones we will get a clear picture as things progress.

As I have studied Islam and thier prophecies, I am amazed at how much they reflect a dark image of the Biblical ones. Thus it is hard to be able to tell the false from the true(in fact we will not be able to completely until very near the end)

Here are the highlights of thier prophecies:
Jesus will come and deny his divinity and worship Allah behind the leadership of the Mahdi.
The Mahdi will unite the world into Islam(submission) to Allah and kill all the unbelievers. "True" Christianity will submit to Islam and follow Allah.
The Mahdi will have the Jews that don't convert killed.
The Madhi will reign for 7 yrs.

My opinion: Satan has given man his ultimate masterpiece in false religion and as such we should reach out in compassion to those who have been deceived. But being very careful not to patronize them nor be little thier faith in God. But Only to question thier understanding of His revelation to man. Much as we would to a Roman Catholic, a Jehovah witness, or a Mormon.

Terri Knoll

11th November 2006, 02:22 PM (14:22)

So many claim that Allah is God. But Muslims don't believe that Jesus is Savior. I personally think that Allah is a god but he is NOT God. I guess they say he is god because he is considered the highest heavenly entity and over all.

So, how do you briefly explain to someone that Allah is not God?

I agree that we risk blasphemy to speak against God (Allah, etc)
I speak to muslims alot thru chats and in everyday life. I don't degrade their God, I show them/ tell them of my experiences with the triune God. Most telling is the love I have for others (their words) plus the witness of the Holy Spirit! My main point in talking about my God is that I can't UNBELIEVE! I can't walk away from the greatest Love I have ever known! The Holy Spirit will reveal the Way if we allow Him to do the work and not we shoving it down their throats :basic05
I really believe as others have stated, that the Holy Spirit can reveal to anyone that Jesus is the way, and while I do see Islam being shown in a horrible light right now (the terrorists doing, not Islam per se) I think it is a good thing when held up to the Light.

Regena Torres

11th November 2006, 09:46 PM (21:46)

I think Allah is their name for God. Even when they become saved they still pray to Allah. My daughter in law is from Malta and I believe their word for God ia also Allah. Is the problem not in the writtings of the Koran and how they view Jesus, rather than the name Allah? I had a Muslim in my 12 step which was Biblically based. he told me he could probably accept Jesus if he was not a Jew. Everyone in the group was required to participate in the bible readings, I would get him to read the words of Christ "I am the way the truth and the life" etc. He is now saved and serving Jesus. he did not get saved in the 12 step but a few weeks after attended a church and went to the front for salvation.

Randy Wise

22nd December 2006, 08:06 AM (08:06)

So many claim that Allah is God. But Muslims don't believe that Jesus is Savior. I personally think that Allah is a god but he is NOT God. I guess they say he is god because he is considered the highest heavenly entity and over all.

So, how do you briefly explain to someone that Allah is not God?

Start with what is true:
There are many religions in the world and all but one are antizion. The one that promotes holiness, righteousness and a everlasting kingdom that can't be destroyed, ruled by a faithful high priest appointed to the line of David is the message of the Gospels. That is the one true God and Jesus Christ whom God has sent - Has Israel been replaced? Not at all as the descendants of Jacob that believed in this new covenant are also called Christians in this day and age because Jesus who is called Christ is the mediator of the new covenant. Are you interested in this covenant relationship with the living God who declared Himself to be the God of Israel?

Randy

Larry Wilson

25th December 2006, 05:30 PM (17:30)

I agree with you that discounting someone's present religious beliefs isn't the best start for winning them over to your own. The other thing that bothers me is the possibility that some of those who worship Allah have indeed tapped into a relationship with the Creator of the universe by the route of Romans 1. In that case, to call Allah a false god or the devil is blasphemy. Combined with the 'detestable' arrogance such a proclamation sometimes reveals, it makes me want to stay far away from that position.
Marsha

What? You can't be serious! To call Allah a false god is blasphemy?? We might as well say that, there are those who may have come to true faith believing in Baal dancing around their asherah poles, or that we might have found people of pure devotion cavorting beneath the golden calf. On the contrary, it is blasphemy to assert that this Allah, a relative minor pagan deity elevated to supremacy by Mohhamed for his own purposes of conquest, is the one true God who sacrificed his one and only son, Jesus, for our salvation and the redemption of all.

We must not buy into the universalism and tolerant inclusiveness of our present age. It is not just a matter of language, or "God by whatever name you call him."

That said, I totally agree with you that a frontal assault on another person's religious beliefs is NOT appropriate nor is it the most effective way to proclaim the gospel. We can adhere to and proclaim the truth without "detestable arrogance" and with respect and humilty. We can still approach people of other faiths with utmost respect and acceptance without lendinng any validity whatsoever to their false gods. Genuine love and respect are still our starting point, a gospel of "Christ and Him crucified," and a spirt-filled fruit-bearing life are still the way to go.

Randy Wise

25th December 2006, 10:07 PM (22:07)

What? You can't be serious! To call Allah a false god is blasphemy?? We might as well say that, there are those who may have come to true faith believing in Baal dancing around their asherah poles, or that we might have found people of pure devotion cavorting beneath the golden calf. On the contrary, it is blasphemy to assert that this Allah, a relative minor pagan deity elevated to supremacy by Mohhamed for his own purposes of conquest, is the one true God who sacrificed his one and only son, Jesus, for our salvation and the redemption of all.

We must not buy into the universalism and tolerant inclusiveness of our present age. It is not just a matter of language, or "God by whatever name you call him."

That said, I totally agree with you that a frontal assault on another person's religious beliefs is NOT appropriate nor is it the most effective way to proclaim the gospel. We can adhere to and proclaim the truth without "detestable arrogance" and with respect and humilty. We can still approach people of other faiths with utmost respect and acceptance without lendinng any validity whatsoever to their false gods. Genuine love and respect are still our starting point, a gospel of "Christ and Him crucified," and a spirt-filled fruit-bearing life are still the way to go.

We can adhere to and proclaim the truth

That Jesus is the only way to the Father? If not ,which truth do you proclaim?
Randy

Larry Wilson

25th December 2006, 11:17 PM (23:17)

We can adhere to and proclaim the truth

That Jesus is the only way to the Father? If not ,which truth do you proclaim?
Randy

Absolutely! That claim was made by Jesus himself. So, to say that there is some other way to God is to deny the very testimony of Jesus.

No other religious system, except perhaps the Unitarian Universalists, do a more thorough job of syncretism as the Bahai. All "manifestations" of God are accepted -- Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, the Bab, and of course, Bahallulah the fullfullment of all the prophecies of all these religions, and more, for this age!

To those who mistakenly believe that Allah is just "their" word for God -- yes, it is a word used by many for their God, BUT their God is not our God, the God, the Living God of Israel, the God who gave his son Jesus a sacrifice for our sins. Is Buddha just "their" name for God? "Kami?" perhaps? Oh, don't forget Baal -- just their name for God, but not the God of Israel! We must take seriously the fact that there are still false God's in our world and a multitude of people who worship them, just as there has been for thousands of years.

Yes, it can sound arrogant, narrow and intolerant. It is a challenge to present the truth of the exclusivity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ boldly, yet humbly; without either apology or arrogance. We'll never do it perfectly, but we must strive to "speak the truth in love."

Randy Wise

26th December 2006, 10:23 AM (10:23)

Absolutely! That claim was made by Jesus himself. So, to say that there is some other way to God is to deny the very testimony of Jesus.

No other religious system, except perhaps the Unitarian Universalists, do a more thorough job of syncretism as the Bahai. All "manifestations" of God are accepted -- Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, the Bab, and of course, Bahallulah the fullfullment of all the prophecies of all these religions, and more, for this age!

To those who mistakenly believe that Allah is just "their" word for God -- yes, it is a word used by many for their God, BUT their God is not our God, the God, the Living God of Israel, the God who gave his son Jesus a sacrifice for our sins. Is Buddha just "their" name for God? "Kami?" perhaps? Oh, don't forget Baal -- just their name for God, but not the God of Israel! We must take seriously the fact that there are still false God's in our world and a multitude of people who worship them, just as there has been for thousands of years.

Yes, it can sound arrogant, narrow and intolerant. It is a challenge to present the truth of the exclusivity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ boldly, yet humbly; without either apology or arrogance. We'll never do it perfectly, but we must strive to "speak the truth in love."

I with you on this. Just trying to understand where you stood.
Thanks
Randy

Dale Cozby

26th December 2006, 07:52 PM (19:52)

I am sorry for a minor grammar point here but::basic03
God is only to be capitalized when referring to the Creator of the Universe.
All other gods are to be given a small "g". Something I learned in elementary school way back when God still meant something in school.

Allah therefore is the name of thier god. But it is not the name of the Creator of the Universe, the Saving and Forgiving God I know. Now allah is the word for god in arabic, so just like we have God and god in english, they have Allah and allah. They worship allah but call him Allah. Is that clear?

If we are going to assign a name for our God. We call him Jesus(english version of Yeshua) by name. Father by title. Comforter by discription. Or YHWH if you like the english letters of the hebrew.

Allah, Lucifer, Baal, Isis, Diana, Mother nature, The Force, blah blah blah......here pick a name for a god: http://www.wacklepedia.com/l/li/list_of_deities.html

"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone." Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say."

Now concerning the possibility that a muslim could be saved under the "law unto themselves" clause in Romans. Well, salvation is found in no other name, but if Jesus doesn't mind being called a lesser than Mohammed prophet instead of the Divine Creator of the Universe and wants to accept them that is His place.

But I don't expect to find very many good "muslims" in heaven. Maybe some bad ones though. The kind that don't follow thier religion but a law unto themselves kind.

read here: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Christians.Islam

Larry Wilson

26th December 2006, 09:04 PM (21:04)

So many claim that Allah is God. But Muslims don't believe that Jesus is Savior. I personally think that Allah is a god but he is NOT God. I guess they say he is god because he is considered the highest heavenly entity and over all.

So, how do you briefly explain to someone that Allah is not God?

Well, now that we have given some rather lengthy answers, let me try to answer your original question. although the first answer from Adam Spriggs was brief and good.

First, I would give testimony to my faith and explain it emphasizing the deity of Christ and His redemptive work. From there it is easier to explain that Allah is not the same God as we know Him in Scripture and experience.

I would avoid getting into the history of Islam and the origin of Allah, or say anything directly derogatory about Mohammed. The main point is that the exclusive claims of the Christian faith disqualify Allah from true deity and Mohammed from being any kind of savior. And, while as Christians, we reject the Quran as being divinely inspired or authoritative, we can acknowledge "good teaching."

One will get nowhere in leading a Muslim toward faith in Christ without first establishing an atmosphere of love and respect. There are times for confrontation, but they must be chosen carefully.

Randy Wise

27th December 2006, 12:58 PM (12:58)

So many claim that Allah is God. But Muslims don't believe that Jesus is Savior. I personally think that Allah is a god but he is NOT God. I guess they say he is god because he is considered the highest heavenly entity and over all.

So, how do you briefly explain to someone that Allah is not God?

To some up all the answers you start with what you know to be true. If they don't like what they hear then explain to them "but that doesn't make it a lie". Stick with what is written and the testimony given. Let them know that flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom promised by God. Make sure you inform them of the eternal consequences of their choice in rejecting Jesus. If they don't like that judgement and try to assign that blame to you let them know the words sent were written long before you were born. Get use to rejection and anger, but keep in mind the Lords words "forgive them for they no not what they do", and try to stay calm. Such work would be considered a work of Love not hate

Randy

Anne and Dwayne Hood

22nd January 2007, 12:28 AM (00:28)

My niece married a Sunni Muslim. I have talked with him on the phone a couple of times. they live in London. My sister is over there now because they have a new baby girl. He says that they worship the same God that we do. I said, "Then, who is Allah?" He answered, "He is God."

we would continue discussing, and I would keep going back to "Who is Allah?" and would get the same answer each time. the Sunni's were for Saddam. I am praying for his salvation. We were surprised that my niece sent us a Christmas card--not a Christian one. They went to his company pary, and there was a man from India dressed as Santa. they had several pictures of him holding baby Maya.
I am excited about the expectancy of Omar finding out about OUR God, and Jesus. They believe that he was a prophet, but not God's son.

Bob Jones

15th March 2007, 08:34 PM (20:34)

So, how do you briefly explain to someone that Allah is not God?

I usually do everything wrong.
I have a friend from Bangaladesh.
I asked him if I could study the Koran with him, because as I was reading it, there were things I didn't understand. His curiosity was piqued.

I explained that in the Bible it said, "Thou shalt not steal" but in the Koran it said, "Don't steal from your neighbor's house unless he is not home".

So I asked him to tell me if he believed the teaching of the Koran or whether he thought it was wrong to steal. When he said it was wrong, I asked him how he knew it was wrong....

This was two years ago. He just bought a Ramada Inn and insisting that I teach the Bible in his meeting room. He is not saved..... yet.

Andrea Larabee

15th March 2007, 11:28 PM (23:28)

I'm very thankful for all that have contributed to this thread. It has left me with lots to think about and has been an eye opener. You may have noticed I have only been lurking in this thread and not really responded. Honestly, I have been a bit afraid to respond with so many smart folks replying. I did not want to get into a line of fire. I have been impressed with how this thread has been kept under control. It has not been badly hijacked! A few disagreements but nothing severe. Ha!

Thank you!

Wilson L. Deaton

16th March 2007, 12:44 AM (00:44)

I explained that in the Bible it said, "Thou shalt not steal" but in the Koran it said, "Don't steal from your neighbor's house unless he is not home".

Could you please give me the reference for this?

(The one in the Koran. I can find the one in the Bible!)

Thanks,
Wilson

Bob Jones

16th March 2007, 02:45 AM (02:45)

Sorry. I can't remember where it was at the moment. But I dug up my notes on another I used..

024.033 and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

In the Bible fornication is wrong, in the Koran, forcing your slaves into prostitution is only wrong if they wish to remain chaste. This translation is probably bad because it makes it sound as if the one compelling them into prostitution will be forgiving. I would assume it speaks of forgiving the slaves. But I don't know for sure. So I asked him about that to see how he would translate it from Arabic. He could not disagree with it.

Someone will likely jump in and try to make this say something else and it may actually mean something else. It doesn't matter for the sake of this conversation, because the point was that I had shown an interest in reading his book and asking questions about it. With what little effort I put into it, he confessed that I knew more about it than he did. And it started us down the road of discussing the nature of God, Man sin, variations in the Bible stories contained in the Koran etc.

Martijn van Beveren

16th March 2007, 08:06 AM (08:06)

Why are we so quick to claim that we DO worship the same God as the Jews, but not the same God as the Muslims? I will admit that I am NOT an Islamic scholar, but isn't Allah the God who was revealed to the Old Testament prophets? Allah is recognized by Muslims as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. If that is true, how is he different from the Jewish El or Elohim, which are etymologically related to the Arabic Allah. Isn't that the same God of the Old Testament, and the God of the Jews?

I am in the minority in rejecting the idea that we worship the same God as the Jews. When we declare that God is Triune we recognize a different God than the Jews. But that's a discussion for a different board.

A while ago I was talking to a postmodern muslim, which was very interesting :p

If we look at the three monotheistic movements:
1. God creates universe and world and man, man sins, needs greace, jesus came, disciples bring good news, christianity evolves
2. God creates universe and world and man, man sins, Torah main book to live by so jews can bring sacrifices to regain grace. Abraham has two sons, both receive promise that their people will become great in numbers. Still wait for a messiah.
3. God creates Universe and world and man, man sins, man regains grace by speaking heavenly language, Abraham has two sons, one is sent away but also receives promise that his people will become great in numbers. OT, NT, 700AD: Mohammed sees wrongdoing of man, searches for ways to repent man, is called by (Allah=arabic language for)God to write down his revealing words. Old books(torah) and new make the Quoran. Christ as savior is rejected, but is seen as one of many prophets. Moh. is seen as last prophet. Gives more rules of how to live.

This is sort of history in a (VERY!) short term :)

So where does this lead us?
It means that the original God is the same, but the way we devellop and grow is at the end different. Also God is God he never changes, but the way we look at Him, or experience Him is different. Also the influence of culture, important people makes more and more different mindsets.

greetzzz,
marty:basic03

Wilson L. Deaton

16th March 2007, 08:58 AM (08:58)

Sorry. I can't remember where it was at the moment......

I appreciate (and admire) your ability to have bridged a gap and enter into meaningful dialog. How much better things could be if that was the approach that all Christians took toward Muslims (instead of fear, etc.)

However, I really wish you could find that quote...

Is it possible that your source on this particular quote was second-hand? Quite frankly, I'm finding it hard to believe that the Koran actually teaches it is OK to steal if the owner isn't home. Given that the Koran is often criticized for it's severity of punishing theft, this seems a little backward. This sounds like a misconstrued quote designed to make Muslim's look even worse. I would really like to see it for myself (in context).

I can pictures two Muslims sitting around and saying, "You know Christians drink blood..."

Wilson

Bob Jones

16th March 2007, 09:32 AM (09:32)

There are enough passages in the Quran commanding the killing of Christians and Jews that I told him that to be a good Muslim it was his duty to kill me, and as a good Christian, it was my duty to let him. So it was a win-win situation.

It has almost become a ceremonial greeting for us to look at each other with an anticipatory look and say, "Win win?"

So no one has to invent "blood drinking" type stuff.

The reality is that we are at war with one branch of Islam that was funded by the Saudis whether we recognize it or not. When the Saudis became rich, people in other countries thought it was due to the strict practice of their brand and embraced it for the apparent reward of earthly blessings.

One of the most significant shifts in Islamic understanding, was that jihad became a personal responsibility, not a national one. Previously only nations would practice jihad against other nations.

A quick (but confrontational) way to know who you are talking with is to ask them if it it wrong to call Jews "monkeys" and "pigs". If they are uncomfortable with the question, they are likely to be sympathetic to jihad. And they are allowed to lie to you.

If you don't have a relationship with you they will openly lie. If you do, they may confess that they agree with the purpose of jihad, but not its methods for now. Some day those methods will be appropriate.

I have attended some of his parties with his Molsem friends and am able to dialog freely with many of them. And many believe in democracy under a Molsem dictator who enforces Sharia law. It is a rational position, considering their presuppositions that all man's laws should reflect God's law.

In my humble opinion (rumble as people fall out of their chairs) we actually fired the first shot. For almost 30 years various denominations and para-church groups openly declared a crusade against Islam (40-40 parallel etc.) Their students were in our universities hearing all the rah-rah. And much of what we sent to the countries in the 40-40 parallel was western culture, not Christianity. So the reaction is understandable.

Institutional Christianity had to break theological ties to "owning" the earth before it became a "peaceful" religion.

There is a branch of Islam that teaches that the kingdom is not of this world in western Africa, but they are also a target of the radicals.

To the original question: I personally believe that Allah is not our God anymore than the god's that we create, who look like us and tolerate our particular sin, while condemning the sin in others that we are not guilty of. I believe he was a god created in the mind of Mohammad. However, I give my friends the benefit of the doubt recognizing that much of what they recognize as right and wrong comes from the law that is written on their heart. That law also convicts them of sin which Islam cannot remedy. So I use it.

I do not give the same benefit of the doubt when witnessing to Mormons, because they are taught that they are not sinners. Their whole temple system is designed to "sear their consciences" against sin. So I go straight to the identity of God, confronting them with the first commandment coupled with Romans 1:18ff.

Randy Wise

16th March 2007, 12:22 PM (12:22)

A while ago I was talking to a postmodern muslim, which was very interesting :p

If we look at the three monotheistic movements:
1. God creates universe and world and man, man sins, needs greace, jesus came, disciples bring good news, christianity evolves
2. God creates universe and world and man, man sins, Torah main book to live by so jews can bring sacrifices to regain grace. Abraham has two sons, both receive promise that their people will become great in numbers. Still wait for a messiah.
3. God creates Universe and world and man, man sins, man regains grace by speaking heavenly language, Abraham has two sons, one is sent away but also receives promise that his people will become great in numbers. OT, NT, 700AD: Mohammed sees wrongdoing of man, searches for ways to repent man, is called by (Allah=arabic language for)God to write down his revealing words. Old books(torah) and new make the Quoran. Christ as savior is rejected, but is seen as one of many prophets. Moh. is seen as last prophet. Gives more rules of how to live.

This is sort of history in a (VERY!) short term :)

So where does this lead us?
It means that the original God is the same, but the way we devellop and grow is at the end different. Also God is God he never changes, but the way we look at Him, or experience Him is different. Also the influence of culture, important people makes more and more different mindsets.

greetzzz,
marty:basic03

It means many on their current path will perish. Doing nothing about that is the wrong answer. I don't know the religion in question very well, but I have gone to those in Judaism over the years. It comes down to the testimony of Jesus Christ. For them its a lie for us its salvation. They may state I don't need a middle man. I might state, what then was the function of the High Priest in regard to sin? They may state that was only for unintentional sin. I may state, if it took the act of the high priest to forgive even unintentional sin how then do you write off deliberate sin? Deliberate sin was not left unpunished. Are not the punishments of deliberate sin written in the law? You see this isn't beating people over the head with Hell, but it is a clear message of the eternal consequences of THEIR choice. Such a work is a work of Love.

Randy

Martijn van Beveren

16th March 2007, 05:42 PM (17:42)

I am sorry for a minor grammar point here but::basic03
God is only to be capitalized when referring to the Creator of the Universe.
All other gods are to be given a small "g". Something I learned in elementary school way back when God still meant something in school.

Allah therefore is the name of thier god. But it is not the name of the Creator of the Universe, the Saving and Forgiving God I know. Now allah is the word for god in arabic, so just like we have God and god in english, they have Allah and allah. They worship allah but call him Allah. Is that clear?

If we are going to assign a name for our God. We call him Jesus(english version of Yeshua) by name. Father by title. Comforter by discription. Or YHWH if you like the english letters of the hebrew.

Allah, Lucifer, Baal, Isis, Diana, Mother nature, The Force, blah blah blah......here pick a name for a god: http://www.wacklepedia.com/l/li/list_of_deities.html

"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone." Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say."

Now concerning the possibility that a muslim could be saved under the "law unto themselves" clause in Romans. Well, salvation is found in no other name, but if Jesus doesn't mind being called a lesser than Mohammed prophet instead of the Divine Creator of the Universe and wants to accept them that is His place.

But I don't expect to find very many good "muslims" in heaven. Maybe some bad ones though. The kind that don't follow thier religion but a law unto themselves kind.

I feel very saddened by the fact that you couple of people are already trying to draw the lines of who is in and who is out. You should not judge. If I read the thread I see judgementalism and prejudice. I'm very sad that you think you have a couple of answers for these other religions... I think that we might be more surprised than what you're suggesting here. I know that I don't have all the answers, but it doesn't bother me. It is my firm ground to know that there is a God who loves us and that He cared for me so much that He gave his only son, so we(all of humanity) might be forgiven. Even the Muslims and many others. Even when they might not have all the right answers. The bible wasn't written just for the "prevailing" christians....

so far for grammar lessons...
This is not an item I want to discuss further, if you want to continue this, go right ahead, but I hope you are not making big mistakes here....
I'm truely sorry that this is not a nice comforting message, but for me there is a line.

even so, regards to you all.
Marty

Randy Wise

16th March 2007, 07:15 PM (19:15)

It is my firm ground to know that there is a God who loves us and that He cared for me so much that He gave his only son, so we(all of humanity) might be forgiven.

That's exactly right Marty. We want them to know this too.

Grace and Peace,
Randy

Martijn van Beveren

17th March 2007, 05:17 PM (17:17)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martijn van Beveren View Post
It is my firm ground to know that there is a God who loves us and that He cared for me so much that He gave his only son, so we(all of humanity) might be forgiven./Quote

That's exactly right Marty. We want them to know this too.

Grace and Peace,
Randy

By living your life as Jesus did, not just proclaiming the truth (and no one (exept God) knows the full truth, not in this world) as a proud folllower:eek: . It's the tone of voice, the attitude that goes with it that I seem to sense through reading with a lot of these threads... We cannot tell people that we are right, they are only interested if we are truly honest, humble, loving, in our weakest moments. We need to wash feet, not slice ears.

Marty

Randy Wise

17th March 2007, 05:23 PM (17:23)

By living your life as Jesus did, not just proclaiming the truth (and no one (exept God) knows the full truth, not in this world) as a proud folllower:eek: . It's the tone of voice, the attitude that goes with it that I seem to sense through reading with a lot of these threads... We cannot tell people that we are right, they are only interested if we are truly honest, humble, loving, in our weakest moments. We need to wash feet, not slice ears.

Marty

Marty I can see we are at a impasse. You said we can't tell people we are right, (I assume you mean Jesus is the only way), then state we must be truly honest??

Well I can and do, but I can be gentle about it.

Grace and Peace,

Randy

Martijn van Beveren

17th March 2007, 05:41 PM (17:41)

Marty I can see we are at a impasse. You said we can't tell people we are right, (I assume you mean Jesus is the only way), then state we must be truly honest??

Well I can and do, but I can be gentle about it.

Grace and Peace,

Randy

It's good to be gentle...
Though, I think you misunderstood. I'm doing the best in my life to be Christlike. Jesus told people that he was the way, but only if people were interested. In other moments he would be humble, silent, healing, caring, gracious and loving. The core value is that I love my neighbour, not judge my neighbor and telling him/her that I'm right. I tell him that i love him and that God loves him, and if that triggers a spark, then I will tell him of a Friend of mine. Who gave his life so we would be free. As an act of love. Not Judgment.

Marty

Randy Wise

17th March 2007, 06:23 PM (18:23)

It's good to be gentle...
Though, I think you misunderstood. I'm doing the best in my life to be Christlike. Jesus told people that he was the way, but only if people were interested. In other moments he would be humble, silent, healing, caring, gracious and loving. The core value is that I love my neighbour, not judge my neighbor and telling him/her that I'm right. I tell him that i love him and that God loves him, and if that triggers a spark, then I will tell him of a Friend of mine. Who gave his life so we would be free. As an act of love. Not Judgment.

Marty

Jesus told many who rejected Him that He was the way. I assure you such judgments about those that reject Jesus were written down long before we were born. It is not I who will pass judgment. A loving God warns and warns and so do I. Please feel free to follow your heart in this matter and I will follow my heart in this matter.

I wish you well,
Randy

Dale Cozby

17th March 2007, 06:23 PM (18:23)

I'm very sad that you think you have a couple of answers for these other religions
Martin do you consider yourself a Christian or a Universalist?
Your posts seem to make me think you are more a Universalist with some Christian leanings.

By living your life as Jesus did, not just proclaiming the truth and no one (exept God) knows the full truth, not in this world) as a proud folllower
I noticed the word truth has no capital.
You seem to think that you can't proclaim the Truth AND live your life as Jesus did. Like the two are opposites. You also seem to thikn that by saying I know what is Truth that I must be proud.
How is speaking the Truth make one proud?
To me Jesus IS the Truth. Apart from him is not the truth.
No pride in that.

Islam says Jesus is NOT the Son of God. He is NOT Divine. He is NOT needed for Salvation. They say He is a lesser prophet than Mohammed.
They deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. They deny the heart and power of who He is and what He did for us. Islam is a works based religion and the works often include some form of lying, stealing, killing and mayhem aimed at the infidels(non-muslims) to be right with thier god. Islam therefore is a FALSE religion. Allah a false god. Either that or God is suffering from Schizophrenia. And the angel Gabriel lied to Mary then told the truth to Mohommed.

If we are to live as Jesus did then we MUST proclaim the Truth to muslims.
Do you think we can be Christian AND Muslim? Christian AND Hindu? Christian AND Orthodox Judaic?

You are close to denying the power and grace of Jesus infavor of being a good person and doing nice works in some pluralistic universalism.

We cannot tell people that we are right, they are only interested if we are truly honest, humble, loving, in our weakest moments
Is this because you feel we are NOT right? or only partially right? or only right from a relative point of view? or just right for you but maybe not them?
How can we be honest if we cannot tell people what is right? Unless we honestly don't know what is right.
I believe you think humble means accepting that we don't have anymore truth than any other religion. Just some small portion of truth.
Why are we to love them but not tell them the source and power of this love?
Why do we have to do this in our weakest moments instead of in the saving power of Jesus?

You seem to think the best way to make disciples is to say nothing but accept thier (false)religion as equal to ours even if it denies who Jesus is, and to do good works so they will like us. I feel as if you think other religions are NOT false but part of some universal truth common to all religions.

Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Randy Wise

18th March 2007, 07:46 AM (07:46)

It's good to be gentle...
Though, I think you misunderstood. I'm doing the best in my life to be Christlike. Jesus told people that he was the way, but only if people were interested. In other moments he would be humble, silent, healing, caring, gracious and loving. The core value is that I love my neighbour, not judge my neighbor and telling him/her that I'm right. I tell him that i love him and that God loves him, and if that triggers a spark, then I will tell him of a Friend of mine. Who gave his life so we would be free. As an act of love. Not Judgment.

Marty

Hi Marty, from what I read I believe you have love for the Lord. Here is one example from scripture along the lines of this thread.

Acts 18:For he, (Apollos), vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Paul also argued or debated with Jews that Jesus was the Christ.

Hope this helps.

Randy

Martijn van Beveren

18th March 2007, 12:46 PM (12:46)

Hi Marty, from what I read I believe you have love for the Lord. Here is one example from scripture along the lines of this thread.

Acts 18:For he, (Apollos), vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Paul also argued or debated with Jews that Jesus was the Christ.

Hope this helps.

Randy

Randy thank you for this part of scripture.
Arguing is not a wrong thing, it helps to get some things cleared and maybe even washes away some prejudes against eachother. I know that Christ is important to me, though making another person understand the message is a whole other thing were bringing the truth is not something you force down someones throat. That's what for me is a "not done" issue. I'm sorry if I came on too strongly in the last posts. Sometimes the written words don't seem to catch someones motives and intentions quite well.
The allergy I have for the "forcing on" method comes from our Europian/dutch history where I don't want to make the same mistake. Most people are quite well known with old Christian habits. I'm just doing the best to show people another way you can be Christian.

best wishes,
Marty:rolleyes:

Martijn van Beveren

18th March 2007, 03:56 PM (15:56)

Martin do you consider yourself a Christian or a Universalist?
Your posts seem to make me think you are more a Universalist with some Christian leanings.

Well Dale, Since you've asked, I am a Christian.

I noticed the word truth has no capital.

Ah, so suddenly my writing is in danger? Oh yes, if I don't write capital I'm in danger... Sorry for mis writing... I think it takes more than to write in capital. I think we are talking about non-essentials here.

You seem to think that you can't proclaim the Truth AND live your life as Jesus did. Like the two are opposites. You also seem to thikn that by saying I know what is Truth that I must be proud.

No, but it seems to me that what I sense in a lot of messages that we have the whole truth and that there is no way to be open for discussion.
Also the word truth can be interpretated in two ways. Jesus is the Truth, I don't doubt that. But some people proclaim the truth and some extra stuff, which they call the truth.

How is speaking the Truth make one proud?

It has to do with trying to be convinced about certain aspects and state them as truth which in my opinion is not always as clear as we seem so convinced about. And should no one question it! Our theology is a set of agreements made by men interpretated from a certain point of view and with a certain background. It started with the Catholic church that handled the Truth. Luther thought it necessary to reinterpretate this. Then the reformed claimed the Truth, which let the Arminians fled to the British isles. And so the Truth as we know it has a hidden agenda. So I dare to question my belief. Not that I doubt my Christianity, but I do question our way of religion and what comes with it. My life as a Christian is always in a process of growth. That means that understanding certain aspects of reading the "B"ible will change.

To me Jesus IS the Truth. Apart from him is not the truth.
No pride in that.

And that is how you know when to end a discussion. So if you handle the truth, I'm out of discussion. Because you know the truth... And I don't, at least that's the way I interpretate your way of saying it. That's the pride part I'm talking about. Your TRUTH is the one and only to be acknowledged.

Islam says Jesus is NOT the Son of God. He is NOT Divine. He is NOT needed for Salvation. They say He is a lesser prophet than Mohammed.
They deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. They deny the heart and power of who He is and what He did for us. Islam is a works based religion and the works often include some form of lying, stealing, killing and mayhem aimed at the infidels(non-muslims) to be right with thier god. Islam therefore is a FALSE religion.

I could state the same if we saw the Catholic institution during the crusade period. I could also tell the Truth from a slavery point of view. Or racial differences. There was the Truth and we sure did tell them! I don't think that the Muslims are right, but who are we to state that they are not? I know it for myself, but it a whole other thing to claim it and to use force and aggression. And say, they are "all" wrong. God loves just "us" but hey, not "them". And maybe the Muslim has a troubled view, but it is what I see with my cultural and religious background. They have theirs. I see the Truth through Compassion, not through Judgement.

Allah a false god. Either that or God is suffering from Schizophrenia. And the angel Gabriel lied to Mary then told the truth to Mohommed.

First of all, it's Mohamed, just to check the spelling here... And I think that when we start at the core of the Muslims we see that God blessed two sons of Abraham. There's the first division(found in the Bible, the Torah and the Quo ran) So we start off with the same God. It's the twisting in interpretation from man that makes it more and more divided. Then Mohamed enters the stage and I definitely question his stories and certain aspects of belief/religion. I don't think that five times a day and traveling to Mekka is the answer to be with God. But Mohamed condemned the idolatry. He wanted a pure search for the One. They way he expresses it and writes it down is what concerns me. Also the time after Mohamed when his story wasn't written down is very weird. There were 30000 different scriptures, were 8000 were doubtful and 3000 acceptable. Which leaves the rest very loose...
So when they found all these parts of his legacy they already had a lot of trash between it. which makes the Quo ran a very controversial book.
But what are the essentials and what are non essentials? That's where it goes wrong in many religions, and also in Christian religion.
We take certain aspects and claim it as truth. Just like the extremists did when they bombed London, flew into the Twin Towers. Or Christians in Waco TX., or other mass suicides. That's why I have trouble with claiming to have the truth. It's a nonnegotiable... I think we must be open for criticism. Even check what we believe. Because also Christianity has certain aspects of truth that are man made. God(=Allah in arabic) is never different, but it is man who changed perspective.

If we are to live as Jesus did then we MUST proclaim the Truth to muslims.
Do you think we can be Christian AND Muslim? Christian AND Hindu? Christian AND Orthodox Judaic?

No we cannot, but we can't also be right in everything because we think we know it all. when Jesus states that He is the Way, He wasn't talking just for us Christians, that is to bold in my opinion. A act of Divinity is something we cannot comprehend or put in a theological boxed structure and proclaim it as the truth. Though we may tell people if that is what you're implying.

You are close to denying the power and grace of Jesus infavor of being a good person and doing nice works in some pluralistic universalism.

And are you getting back to the crusades to pick up your sword to tell "them" the Truth?
I think you've got me wrong in thinking I deny the Grace of Jesus His divine act for this world and all the people on it. The Love, grace and power of God are beyond our comprehension. Who am I to claim to know it all? Than I would have to state myself next to God and judge all the people on the world.

Gods LOVE goes beyond my Truth,
Marty

David Pettigrew

18th March 2007, 06:21 PM (18:21)

Dale Cozby

18th March 2007, 06:45 PM (18:45)

And so the Truth as we know it has a hidden agenda
Sounds like relativism to me. Seems like most relativists are die-hard skeptics, unable or unwilling to believe the truth when they hear it.

So if you handle the truth, I'm out of discussion In other words you refuse to discuss with people who don't agree to your belief in relative truth? I can see you have a hostility to the concept of Absolute Truth from your posts.

That's the pride part I'm talking about. Your TRUTH is the one and only to be acknowledged Seems the pride is saying you KNOW that truth is relative and the very idea it might not be is just so stupid you won't even discuss it. I will challenge your idea of truth as you do mine. Oh and it isn't MY Truth. Its THE Truth. It transcends both of us and our relative points of view. Of course this is just my opinion.:basic03

We take certain aspects and claim it as truth. Just like the extremists did when they bombed London, flew into the Twin Towers. Or Christians in Waco TX., or other mass suicides. That's why I have trouble with claiming to have the truth. This is the typical extremism that relativists take when confronted with the idea of an Absolute Truth apart from thier own mind. They make all non-relativists into nutjobs.
Here is the logic: All Nutjobs are Absolutists; therefore all absolutists are nutjobs. This is faulty logic. Why do you feel the belief in absolute Truth makes one a nutjob wanting to kill or commit suicide?

I don't think that the Muslims are right, but who are we to state that they are not? I know it for myself, but it a whole other thing to claim it and to use force and aggression.
Again this shows your disdain of non-relativists. You claim I am promoting force and aggression simply because I do not view Truth as a relative thing.
Could this be because of your educational heritage in post-modern Europe?
The allergy I have for the "forcing on" method comes from our Europian/dutch history where I don't want to make the same mistake
Also, you asked who are we to state we are right?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit" Was Paul being arrogant when he proclaimed this? Was his testimony just a relative point of view for him personally? IF not why? Can we like Paul assert the absolute belief in the Truth?

My faith like Paul makes me totally convinced.
see also Luke 16:31

The Love, grace and power of God are beyond our comprehension. Who am I to claim to know it all? This sounds alot like gnosticism. Perhaps the most insidius heresy the church ever dealt with. Do you really believe that God is so high and mighty that we cannot know Him? Do you know enough to have the assurance of your salvation through faith? If you do, then do you know enough to pass that faith on to another person?

"10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.....

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?"
No we cannot, but we can't also be right in everything because we think we know it all. Do you think we can be right enough to teach anything at all other than our weak relative idea of truth?

Let me ask you this: Can truth totally contradict itself? Can Mohamed be right AND the Bible?
Can false teachers use the Absolute Truth to tell lies?
Is a half-truth a lie if it leads one to the wrong conclusion?
Is there anything as Absolute Truth?
Gods LOVE goes beyond my Truth,
God's LOVE IS my Truth,
Dale

P.S.
First of all, it's Mohamed, just to check the spelling here
Mohammad has many variants. Perhaps in the Dutch it is commonly spelled differently. I have mostly seen it spelled with 2 m's.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

Marty, I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I just want to get you to think about other viewpoints much as you wish for me to. I may poke you with a stick and challenge you, but I do it so we can both be sharper. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. "

Dale Cozby

18th March 2007, 07:17 PM (19:17)

My concern is that the Muslims of the 21st century in the Western world are becoming like the Jews of pre-WWII Europe - a scapegoat. I've heard Christians make statements like "You know, they're all out to kill us. It's their duty" and "They should all be expelled from our country, because they're out to take it over and destroy our way of life." Anyone who believes this listens to too much Christian radio.

This was the same propaganda the government (with the help of the church) spread about the Jews in Europe not seventy-five years ago. They supposedly had this secret plot to kill all the Christians and take over the world.

There are bad, evil, muslims who want to kill everyone who does not convert to their religion. We should do all we can to fight them on every level. But we should also remember that they are about 400 years behind Christianity. We tried to do the same thing.

I think respect is a good starting place in building relationships between those who call God "Allah" and those who call Him "Jesus". I believe they are wrong, but it doesn't mean I can't respect them.

David we have ONE huge difference between us. It is the Word.
Thier scriptures teach almost exactly opposite of ours on many things.

Mohamed killed his enemies, Jesus was killed by his enemies.
Mohamed conquered the weak, Jesus healed the weak.
Mohamed won followers by the sword, Jesus by the sword of the Truth.
Mohamed established an earthly kingdom, Jesus a heavenly kingdom.
Mohamed punished "sinners", Jesus forgave sinners.
Mohamed used lies, treachery and fear to his advantage and taught his followers to do likewise.
Jesus is the Truth, Peace, and Love and taught his followers to be likewise.
Mohamed claims the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and denied the divinity of Jesus and gave him the words of the Koran, which contradict the Bible.
But in the Bible Gabriel, announces the "Son of the Most High" and the one with the "spirit of Elijah"(John the Baptist) and appeared to Daniel concerning the vision of the coming of the Messiah.

I do agree that Muslims are somewhat treated with fear, but that is because of the efforts of radical elements in thier religion to terrorize us all more than the radio voices of Christian talk radio who talk about it.

You said they are 400 years behind Christianity. I disagree. They are in another mindset from Christianity altogether. You act as though the Truth is evolving in each religion. I see Truth as eternal, not evolutionary. It isn't something we keep reinventing, it is something we discover in a world full of lies and distortions seeking to cover it up.. Islam will still be worng 400 yrs from now. It will be no closer to the Truth then, as it is now or when Mohamed recited it. A lie is still a lie no matter how many times it is repeated or restated. Religions may keep evolving but the Truth is always the same.
Organized Christianity is evolving, but Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever and His true followers must be one in Spirit even as He and the father are one in the Spirit.

Hans Deventer

19th March 2007, 02:46 AM (02:46)

God's LOVE IS my Truth,
Dale

You are a master in hiding that.

Martijn van Beveren

19th March 2007, 08:04 AM (08:04)

Sounds like relativism to me. Seems like most relativists are die-hard skeptics, unable or unwilling to believe the truth when they hear it.

Well, I don't think it's wrong to be relative about some issues. The Love of God for me and the Salvation through Jesus are not at discussion here, though you might state this. It's the way you seem to handle your absolute truth and judge other people by it, at least that's what I interpretate. That seems to be the issue at stake here. I also think you're out of line when stating that relativists are unable to accept "The Truth".

In other words you refuse to discuss with people who don't agree to your belief in relative truth? I can see you have a hostility to the concept of Absolute Truth from your posts.

I think that's it's impossible to keep a discussion going if you're not willing to see the other persons questions or issues. While keep clinging to your way of a approach to Truth.

Seems the pride is saying you KNOW that truth is relative and the very idea it might not be is just so stupid you won't even discuss it. I will challenge your idea of truth as you do mine. Oh and it isn't MY Truth. Its THE Truth. It transcends both of us and our relative points of view. Of course this is just my opinion.:basic03

Indeed, it's your perception of the Truth and how you interpretate it. But by stating an absolute Truth you seem to say that you know it all.

This is the typical extremism that relativists take when confronted with the idea of an Absolute Truth apart from thier own mind. They make all non-relativists into nutjobs.
Here is the logic: All Nutjobs are Absolutists; therefore all absolutists are nutjobs. This is faulty logic. Why do you feel the belief in absolute Truth makes one a nutjob wanting to kill or commit suicide?

Because, continue-ing on my earlier remarks, when someone states he has the absolute Truth there is no way to change perspective, contemplation, or reflect on cultural and/or religious aspects. I think it is important to keep an open mind (that doesn't mean that I shove off my core values) because we are under constant change/growth in our own lives, and in civilisation. History has shown me enough people where they would not change or rethink on their current path and head for disaster. So that's why I will not go along to proclaim to know it all.

Could this be because of your educational heritage in post-modern Europe?

Wonderful culture isn't it :)

Also, you asked who are we to state we are right?
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit"
Was Paul being arrogant when he proclaimed this? Was his testimony just a relative point of view for him personally? IF not why? Can we like Paul assert the absolute belief in the Truth?

I don't think that paul had an absolute Truth, but what he had was an absolute love for his listeners. He knew that he could rely on God because he believed.

My faith like Paul makes me totally convinced.

That depends on what you read. and yes we're back to relativity... I think Paul knew what he was talking about in his way of life, and the love and care he had for the people he met.

This sounds alot like gnosticism. Perhaps the most insidius heresy the church ever dealt with.

you're really showing character here...

Do you really believe that God is so high and mighty that we cannot know Him?

I just do not think that you're right by stating that you have got God all figured out. I think the relational aspect is not the issue. It's the way we judge people.

Do you know enough to have the assurance of your salvation through faith?

I do not know enough, I am saved by Grace and Love, not by knowing it better than anybody else.

If you do, then do you know enough to pass that faith on to another person?

Jesus stated that he showed us the way, His life, the way he walked among us. Care and a deep love for the ones who do not have the respect of the community, the outcast. My faith is not depending on the Absolute Truth, it's depending on the Absolute Love.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]"10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.....

Do you think we can be right enough to teach anything at all other than our weak relative idea of truth?

Yes, we can teach people how to love. And with that I can show people my side of the story. God's love is the way, not whether I've got my theology absolutely right or straightened out.

Is there anything as Absolute Truth?

I think there are a lot of things that make truth a relative thing.
But God, His Love, His Grace, His Son, and His spirit is always the same.
You see, It's not God I'm doubting nor the Core elements or His judgement. It's our own perspective that we handle as truth what gives me the shivers. It feels like the proclamation of a Jehovah's witness to me. (No, not the person, just his action)

God's LOVE IS my Truth,
Dale

Well, you might wanna show that a bit more in the way you're writing things down.
BTW: I'm sometimes running short on words because English is my second language. which means that I sometimes misread you're interpretation, as you do on mine. Just a cultural thing...

Marty, I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I just want to get you to think about other viewpoints much as you wish for me to. I may poke you with a stick and challenge you, but I do it so we can both be sharper.

Well, this felt quite sharp to me... But just to give you a bit less concern, I think you need to understand that I'm not implying that everyone goes to heaven. Those who willingly do not want to accept God and go on with their sinful lifestyle will have to see where they go... But I will not judge them.
But I think that within a Muslim culture there can be people who accept God and are saved for that matter. the act of Love of Christ goes beyond our own thoughts, religion and culture.

1 Cor: 1-13

David Pettigrew

19th March 2007, 09:30 AM (09:30)

I do agree that Muslims are somewhat treated with fear, but that is because of the efforts of radical elements in thier religion to terrorize us all more than the radio voices of Christian talk radio who talk about it.

You said they are 400 years behind Christianity. I disagree. They are in another mindset from Christianity altogether. You act as though the Truth is evolving in each religion. I see Truth as eternal, not evolutionary. It isn't something we keep reinventing, it is something we discover in a world full of lies and distortions seeking to cover it up.. Islam will still be worng 400 yrs from now. It will be no closer to the Truth then, as it is now or when Mohamed recited it. A lie is still a lie no matter how many times it is repeated or restated. Religions may keep evolving but the Truth is always the same.
Organized Christianity is evolving, but Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever and His true followers must be one in Spirit even as He and the father are one in the Spirit.

You'll get no arguement from me that Islam and Christianity are different. I believe we are right. I believe they are wrong. If I didn't believe that, I'd change my name to Ali Baba, quit eating pork, and open up a Ramada Inn.

My point is how Christians view, and are beginning to treat, Muslims, particularly Muslim Americans (or Muslim Europeans). It's similar to the way we treated Jews one hundred years ago, and it's dangerous.

When I said that Islam is 400 years behind us, I wasn't speaking theologically. I was speaking historically. Up until about 400 years ago, we were killing everyone who didn't convert to our way of thinking, just like the radicals in Islam want to do now. The Crusades, the Inquisition, Catholic vs. Protestant wars in England, Germany, and (most recently) Ireland, Jewish pograms in Eastern Europe and the Czar's Russia - the Church has a lot of blood on her hands, and when we point the finger at Islam, we're pointing four back at ourselves.

As a Christian, I believe Islam has missed the mark. I believe the same thing about Judiasm and Mormonism. Doesn't mean I don't love Muslims, Jews, and Mormons. Doesn't mean I think they're all out to "get me".

I'm not a "universalist". I just believe the Church is missing out on one of its whitest harvest fields by making war on an entire religion.

While we're on the subject - and this is not addressed directly to you, Dale, but to everyone in general - how can everyone keep missing the obvious? Have any of you actually read the Koran, or have you just heard it quoted on the Jimmy Swaggart station? I haven't read the Koran, so I'm not qualified to speak on what it says. Please stop cherry-picking verses in order to make Islam look ridiculous. ("The Koran says it's ok to steal. The Koran says murder all Christians. The Koran teaches that you should club baby seals to death.") I could easily pick out a verse here and a verse there from our Bible, and have a very hard time explaining why it teaches us that God commanded the murder of entire tribes of people - woman and babies included, or why rape is ok, or why Abraham was commanded to abandon his son in the desert to die, etc. etc. Unless you've studied the whole book, you're not qualified to argue from it.

Hans Deventer

19th March 2007, 09:56 AM (09:56)

Martin do you consider yourself a Christian or a Universalist?
Your posts seem to make me think you are more a Universalist with some Christian leanings.

Dale, you may consider this to be a moderator's post. It is out of line and you are hereby requested to treat participants here with more respect than this "question" shows.

Dale Cozby

19th March 2007, 05:53 PM (17:53)

Well, this felt quite sharp to me... But just to give you a bit less concern I am sorry I tend to be a bit sharp. I was raised in a painfully and honestly blunt family. My upbringing has always been innercity urban and I tend to speak with the barbs of a street gang member rather than a gentle man of God sometimes. I am still working on that,even after 25 years in my faith. Maybe sharp and gentle is a just a relative thing? :basic03 Hey good thing you didn't hear me before I became a Christian!!:eek:

Hans, Sorry if you think I was over the line about the Universalist thing.
I am glad Naznet has a gentle person like you as a moderator, even if you gave a little barb at me about the love thing in the post before.:rolleyes: I forgive you too.;)

Ok, back to topic:
I still see a danger making truth a relative thing.

Have any of you actually read the Koran, or have you just heard it quoted on the Jimmy Swaggart station? Actually, yes, I have read it cover to cover, as well as many of the Hadiths that support and explain it. I have a number of Muslims contacts so I wanted to be well informed. Just because I may speak sharply here with other Christians, I would never be this tough with a person coming from this background. You catch flies alot better with sugar instead of vinegar. But one needs to know the reasons why we are diverged as much as finding the common ground to speak on.

I also have a whole library on JW's and Mormons. I have had neighbors that were both and my son currenntly has friends who are. I had two young men in white shirts come and visit with me on several occasions and they were suprised to find a non-mormon who actually owned a Book of Mormon to discuss it with them. I believe that through our exchanges they came away with a greater understanding of the Cristian faith apart from thier Mormon heritage. I also found them to be fine young men with deep convictions and love for God, even if we couldn't agree on some things.

when someone states he has the absolute Truth there is no way to change perspective, contemplation, or reflect on cultural and/or religious aspects. I think it is important to keep an open mind (that doesn't mean that I shove off my core values) because we are under constant change/growth in our own lives, and in civilisation. History has shown me enough people where they would not change or rethink on their current path and head for disaster. So that's why I will not go along to proclaim to know it all.

But by stating an absolute Truth you seem to say that you know it all. I disagree. I think it means you hear "they know it all".

Just because a person acknowledges the existence of absolute truth doesn't mean he is close minded or that he knows it all.

When people in the past proclaimed the earth was round or that the earth revolved around the sun and said heres why i believe this is absolute and beyond dispute, didn't mean he knew everything about the nature of the universe. Likewise, coming to the conviction that something is absolute in nature doesn't mean that everything you think is absolute in nature. Only that on this or that issue you are beyond doubt.

What I hear when someone says truth is relative I understand that to mean they are going to be skeptical about anything that they don't want to believe is true.
I have debated with die hard skeptics that were all very relativistic.
If truth is only relative then nothing can be known for sure. Even absolute Love.
Nothing can be known. Nothing beyond the person experiences real or imagined. To a relative skeptic they can dismiss anything simply by saying it is only true from your perspective adn even then you might just be imagining it.

I ask you to for a moment considert that absolute truth might exist.
If absolute truth exists, then it is unchangable by time or place.
It would then always be true regardless of relative postion or understanding.

The concept of sin as "missing the mark" would hold that sin is still sin even if we are unaware of it. Sin therefore would be an absolute regardless of our understanding of it.
If sin is an absolute, then only God would be able to deal with it since we could never measure up to a standard we don't know. This would make the need for absolute grace and absolute love a must in the life of a believer.

It is hard to get this concept across in a small post, but I hope I can.

In our Wesleyan defintion of sin it makes talking about absolute Truth rather arrogant. I belive this is why it sounds like a we know it all if we belive we know absolute Truth.

While I believe absolute truth is something we discover, I also believe we will never know it all. At least not this side of glorification anyway. I treat finding Truth like a beggar finding some food and going and telling other beggars about his find so they can all rejoice in it.

So even though truht is absolute, it is also true we may only know a aprt of it. I hope you can understand what I mean in the difference between this and believing truth is relative.

My first langauge is english and I am still trying to master it. Maybe another 40 years and I will understand it better.

Martijn van Beveren

19th March 2007, 06:35 PM (18:35)

I am sorry I tend to be a bit sharp. I was raised in a painfully and honestly blunt family. My upbringing has always been innercity urban and I tend to speak with the barbs of a street gang member rather than a gentle man of God sometimes. I am still working on that,even after 25 years in my faith. Maybe sharp and gentle is a just a relative thing? :basic03 Hey good thing you didn't hear me before I became a Christian!!:eek:

Well, at least this explains some stuff :cool:

Ok, back to topic:
I still see a danger making truth a relative thing.

Just because a person acknowledges the existence of absolute truth doesn't mean he is close minded or that he knows it all.

When people in the past proclaimed the earth was round or that the earth revolved around the sun and said heres why i believe this is absolute and beyond dispute, didn't mean he knew everything about the nature of the universe. Likewise, coming to the conviction that something is absolute in nature doesn't mean that everything you think is absolute in nature. Only that on this or that issue you are beyond doubt.

What I hear when someone says truth is relative I understand that to mean they are going to be skeptical about anything that they don't want to believe is true.

I think that this is where we went battling.... And where different interpretations kick in.

I have debated with die hard skeptics that were all very relativistic.
If truth is only relative then nothing can be known for sure. Even absolute Love.
Nothing can be known. Nothing beyond the person experiences real or imagined. To a relative skeptic they can dismiss anything simply by saying it is only true from your perspective adn even then you might just be imagining it.

I ask you to for a moment consider that absolute truth might exist.
If absolute truth exists, then it is unchangable by time or place.
It would then always be true regardless of relative postion or understanding.

The concept of sin as "missing the mark" would hold that sin is still sin even if we are unaware of it. Sin therefore would be an absolute regardless of our understanding of it.
If sin is an absolute, then only God would be able to deal with it since we could never measure up to a standard we don't know. This would make the need for absolute grace and absolute love a must in the life of a believer.
It is hard to get this concept across in a small post, but I hope I can.

hmm...

In our Wesleyan defintion of sin it makes talking about absolute Truth rather arrogant. I believe this is why it sounds like a we know it all if we believe we know absolute Truth.

While I believe absolute truth is something we discover, I also believe we will never know it all. At least not this side of glorification anyway. I treat finding Truth like a beggar finding some food and going and telling other beggars about his find so they can all rejoice in it.

So even though truth is absolute, it is also true we may only know a aprt of it. I hope you can understand what I mean in the difference between this and believing truth is relative.

Ah, something that sounds interesting. So I agree with you that God is Love and thereby you might as well fill in Truth. for He is who He is. Though Love is something what weighs heavier in my scale. Since were on the "garbled/misty" side we cannot be absolutely certain if we have it all right, right? That's the human factor. We might see a part(crumb/slice) of the "cake", but not the whole "cake".

My first langauge is english and I am still trying to master it. Maybe another 40 years and I will understand it better.

who knows... Over 40 yrs you might even write a decent message after all :basic02 LOL

greetzzz,
Marty

PS: I'm not finished with the way we look at Muslims. But that's for another part of the thread.

Hans Deventer

20th March 2007, 03:34 AM (03:34)

Ok, back to topic:
I still see a danger making truth a relative thing.

So do I. Because Truth is not a thing, it is a person: Our Lord Jesus Christ. That may be a challenge to both moderns and post-moderns alike, because it means that the truth can only be found in relation to Him (my argument with Jeremy in the thread about the GBLT people visiting colleges) and it is a challenge to all those that think truth can be whatever one thinks is truth, what "works for you" as you hear a lot these days. Because that is a false notion as well. Absolute truth does exist, but the Bible tells us it is a Person.

I think we never really got to terms with that in our theologies.

Dale Cozby

20th March 2007, 09:56 AM (09:56)

So do I. Because Truth is not a thing, it is a person: Our Lord Jesus Christ. That may be a challenge to both moderns and post-moderns alike, because it means that the truth can only be found in relation to Him (my argument with Jeremy in the thread about the GBLT people visiting colleges) and it is a challenge to all those that think truth can be whatever one thinks is truth, what "works for you" as you hear a lot these days. Because that is a false notion as well. Absolute truth does exist, but the Bible tells us it is a Person.

I think we never really got to terms with that in our theologies.

Hans!!! I am so glad we can agree on something.:fav18 :basic05
That is why I often capitalize the word Truth to differentiate when I am speaking about "The Truth" or "a" truth.

I also try to make the same distinction between the Church and the church.
Church: the called ones of God, the ones that only He really knows who they are. The members of His kingdom and family.
church: members of the institution calling itself the church.

Often people call one the other and it is really not the same.

We even do that with what sin is.
Sin as what we are convicted about. "known law of God thing"
Sin as missing the mark set by God. The ultimate of "sin lists"

Double meanings often leads to confusion when we are posting and get misunderstood as to what we really mean.

Barbara Moulton

20th March 2007, 03:03 PM (15:03)

Please stop cherry-picking verses in order to make Islam look ridiculous. ("The Koran says it's ok to steal. The Koran says murder all Christians. The Koran teaches that you should club baby seals to death.") I could easily pick out a verse here and a verse there from our Bible, and have a very hard time explaining why it teaches us that God commanded the murder of entire tribes of people - woman and babies included, or why rape is ok, or why Abraham was commanded to abandon his son in the desert to die, etc. etc. Unless you've studied the whole book, you're not qualified to argue from it.

I agree.

I went to an online version of the Qur'an and looked through the one I have in my office at the hospital and I couldn't find the reference about stealing.

It doesn't sound like something the Qur'an would teach. I would like to see the reference.

As for the verse that was quoted, "....do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste..." that sounds to me like a recognition that even slave girls had sexual rights. By our cultural standards it is appalling that they would have slaves who could be compelled to be prostitutes. But by those cultural standards it might be seen as compassionate treatment.

Of course, by our cultural standards, we also find it appalling that women could turn their slave girls over to their husbands in order to have more children by him. Good thing there is no such behaviour to be found in our holy scriptures :-)