Scripture?

[Dennis Bratcher]

Something to think about (I have raised the same issue more than once here):


Do we have enough faith that the Holy Spirit can still continue to breathe through [Scripture] texts that we would risk letting them speak to us and our churches on grander scale? Instead of believing, abstractly, that the Bible is true or authoritative, would we be willing to put the Bible in the position of authority, as a major--or the major--contributor to our worship services? Do we have faith that God can use all of Scripture to further knit together God's family, so that we can read together from Genesis, Amos, Mark, and 1 Thessalonians and be pointed toward the God to whom all Scripture testifies? Can we grow in this modern, changing world, by together submitting to listen to our ancient sacred texts? Can we, as pastors, admit that there are things in Scripture that we find hard, even troubling, and debate with one another--as did the rabbis of old--not out of animosity or pride, but flowing from a heartfelt quest for truth? . . .

[Scripture's] greatest threat is not being studied or scrutinized, but being ignored or apologized for by scholars, pastors, and laity alike. I wager that by giving pride of place on a Sunday morning or Sunday night, in personal devotions or group Bible study time to these foundational books by simply reading aloud, often and at length, from the diverse voices of Scripture will bring comfort, surprise, and challenge--maybe even shock--to the congregation who will truly listen. In the consistent reading of Scripture, the pastor herself or himself may also end a Sunday feeling nourished and enlivened, rather than depleted. Do we trust that God still speaks through this word? [Kara Lyons-Pardue, "'Grace and Peace to You all': This is the Word of the Lord," Grace and Peace, 1:39-41]

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Susan Unger]

I have two thoughts. The first one is that it is giving me so many flashbacks of the reformed and cessationist folks I grew up with who legalistic in their use of the bible. I've come to greatly appreciate the Wesleyan Quadrilateral for this reason.

My other thought [and I suspect this is what she is refering to] is that one can become so wrapped in the study of the bible [history, culture, textual criticism, etc] that one can lose the sheer joy of reading just to let God speak. This is why this past year I have decided not to do my usual background research and use of study notes for my devotional reading, but am following the Catholic daily readings in the lectionary. I am letting letting words and the Spirit flow over me as I read. It has been very enjoyable.

[Eric Frey]

The key lies in the people's willingness - or ability - to listen. That is what I have found to be the disconnect. We read all four lectionary texts every week. It is just like my mom always told me. I know you are hearing me... but you'd better listen to me!!!

[Paul DeBaufer]

Do we have enough faith that the Holy Spirit can still continue to breathe through [Scripture] texts that we would risk letting them speak to us and our churches on grander scale? Do we have faith that God can use [i]all of Scripture to further knit together God's family, so that we can read together from Genesis, Amos, Mark, and 1 Thessalonians and be pointed toward the God to whom all Scripture testifies? Can we grow in this modern, changing world, by together submitting to listen to our ancient sacred texts? Can we, as pastors, admit that there are things in Scripture that we find hard, even troubling, and debate with one another--as did the rabbis of old--not out of animosity or pride, but flowing from a heartfelt quest for truth? . . .

[Scripture's] greatest threat is not being studied or scrutinized, but being ignored or apologized for by scholars, pastors, and laity alike.
Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

I fully believe that the Holy Spirit has spoken to me through Scripture and this very recently. I have read certain passages repeatedly and had gotten a certain set of messages from them. However, in the past month I have been going through some personal turmoil. When I read those same passages again, because they were germane to my issues the Holy Spirit spoke a much deeper meaning. Not that I had been wrong before, for I believe I had exegeted correctly just not as deeply. Then I was drawn to other passages from both New and Old Testaments that supported this new (to me) deeper understanding.

I think I must agree with the last sentence of the quote. I feel not fully engaging Scripture and asking those difficult, uncomfortable, painful questions leaves us with a superficial, incomplete faith or our refusal to do so represents a flawed or weak faith.

[Dennis Bratcher]

The key lies in the people's willingness - or ability - to listen. That is what I have found to be the disconnect. We read all four lectionary texts every week. It is just like my mom always told me. I know you are hearing me... but you'd better listen to me!!!

Yes. The same with sermons.

I think the issue for most churches is that the people are not given the opportunity to listen because there is a dearth of Scripture reading. I am under no illusion that the reading of Scripture will magically be transformational. Yet I wonder whether we have depended a little too much on ourselves and have not trusted God to work through Scripture (as a living word) at least as much as he works through other avenues.

And of course there is the ongoing problem of not really doing much Bible study in our churches (I still frequently hear among evangelicals about "Bible Studies" that are actually pop book studies). I know several churches that widely advertised and promoted "financial peace" seminars yet had no adult Bible study programs (in two of those churches the adult SS classes were consistently book studies).

It might be eye-opening to realize how little incoming college freshmen, even with strong church backgrounds, know about the Bible. This is one area where Calvinists put us to shame.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Jon Twitchell]

Our approach each week is also to read all four lectionary texts. I typically read the Psalm as part of the Call to Worship... two lay readers read the two lessons I'm not preaching from, and I incorporate the fourth lesson into my message. Generally there is no commentary given to the readings, but sometimes one of my layreaders will give a bit of background or a brief comment.

But as Eric points out, hearing is not the same as listening.

From time to time, I attempt to structure the service to raise the intentionality of listening to those lessons... sometimes we've sung "Ancient Words" as a preparatory chorus... recently, I incorporated a "prayer of illumination" from the UMC Book of Worship.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Yes. The same with sermons.

And of course there is the ongoing problem of not really doing much Bible study in our churches (I still frequently hear among evangelicals about "Bible Studies" that are actually pop book studies). I know several churches that widely advertised and promoted "financial peace" seminars yet had no adult Bible study programs (in two of those churches the adult SS classes were consistently book studies).

I have to concur with this. Too many book studies that pay superficial homage to biblical texts. And most of these books, well the pop Christian books, are written from either a Reformed/Calvinist or Pentecostal/Charismatic view. Some just plain "proof text" to make their point. I think that there a far too great a number of churches that are not holding actual in depth Bible studies.

[Rich Schmidt]

First, let me say that I completely agree that we should have a good amount of Scripture in our worship. (One Sunday earlier this year, my message consisted of 5 minutes of introduction followed by 20 or so minutes of reading the Letter to the Ephesians to the congregation. My messages typically include the reading of 20-50 verses of Scripture.)

Second, I'm afraid that over the years I've become less and less a fan of the "all four lectionary readings" approach. It can seem so disjointed when there's no common theme or when they aren't pulled together in some way by the message or the rest of the worship service. More than once this year, I've had someone comment to me that they appreciated the way I explain the Scriptures and connect them to our daily life... and then tell me that this wasn't their experience in the church they used to attend years ago. In those churches, the Scriptures would be read, and then the pastor (or priest) would talk about something totally different. The Scriptures were never expounded upon -- at least, not in any way they were aware of.

I used to really enjoy Roger Hahn's early Word and Table service at Kansas City First Church of the Nazarene back when I was at NTS ('97-'99). One thing that made it so enjoyable was that he would pull all four lectionary readings together in his message. Without that, the readings feel like they're just hanging there, not connected to anything.

That's just my two cents.

[Kelcey Snyder]

I guess the problem, in my opinion, is getting people interested in deep scriptural studies. I don't know too many people who love to sit through an hour sermon. I kinda got the feeling growing up that: "Yes I know this story already...I've already heard this...I already know that....what's new?" I think it's hard to make scripture the ultimate focus in our church when it seems that our culture is not that interested. I am not saying that our congregations don't care about deep scriptural studies, however, I do believe people are wanting more than the same ole Bible stories that have been told all of their lives. However, I do agree that the church needs to become more knowledgeable about the Bible's background, history, how to read/interpret, ect. But then again that requires people being interested in that type of information.

[Jon Twitchell]

First, let me say that I completely agree that we should have a good amount of Scripture in our worship. (One Sunday earlier this year, my message consisted of 5 minutes of introduction followed by 20 or so minutes of reading the Letter to the Ephesians to the congregation. My messages typically include the reading of 20-50 verses of Scripture.)

Second, I'm afraid that over the years I've become less and less a fan of the "all four lectionary readings" approach. It can seem so disjointed when there's no common theme or when they aren't pulled together in some way by the message or the rest of the worship service. More than once this year, I've had someone comment to me that they appreciated the way I explain the Scriptures and connect them to our daily life... and then tell me that this wasn't their experience in the church they used to attend years ago. In those churches, the Scriptures would be read, and then the pastor (or priest) would talk about something totally different. The Scriptures were never expounded upon -- at least, not in any way they were aware of.

I used to really enjoy Roger Hahn's early Word and Table service at Kansas City First Church of the Nazarene back when I was at NTS ('97-'99). One thing that made it so enjoyable was that he would pull all four lectionary readings together in his message. Without that, the readings feel like they're just hanging there, not connected to anything.

That's just my two cents.

I've occasionally felt similarly... (this coming week is one where it seems particularly disjointed to me)...

It's particularly true during Ordinary Time, when lessons are picked in order to move chronologically through large chunks of material. Sometimes they're more disjointed then others. I do remind myself that there may be someone who needs to hear something that morning that's outside of my sermon text... sometimes my layreaders offer comment, which (might) help. And I also see it as a tool to raise scriptural awareness within the congregation. The lectionary still provides one of the best ways to help my congregation hear a great chunk of the text within a 3 year cycle. Unfortunately, I don't think we can assume that our people are immersing themselves in the text... either through personal study or small group... at least not the same way that we might hope.

Also, sometimes I've tweaked the lessons a bit... or I've sometimes built my own lectionary for a particular series, last year spending 9 weeks in the Lord's Prayer with connected/supporting lessons, and this year taking 16 weeks for the minor prophets.

[Dennis Bratcher]

I guess the problem, in my opinion, is getting people interested in deep scriptural studies. I don't know too many people who love to sit through an hour sermon. I kinda got the feeling growing up that: "Yes I know this story already...I've already heard this...I already know that....what's new?"

Two quick observations. Sermons alone are not usually a good way to understand the Bible. That is not normally the purpose of a sermon (although it certainly can be).

Second, for people with this attitude (not suggesting that you are one!), not much of anything is going to make a difference. If we come to a service of worship and sit down with the attitude of "give it to me," then there is a problem far deeper than a lack of Scripture reading or an entertaining, engaging sermon. The meaning of the term "liturgy" is "the work of the people," which suggests that worshippers have a role in worship beyond expecting to sit and "enjoy."


I think it's hard to make scripture the ultimate focus in our church . . .

I did not hear Kara say this, and I would not propose that it should be. The issue is the lack of Scripture reading and study in many churches. Scripture is only a part of worship, although the classic idea of worship as "Word and Table" (http://www.crivoice.org/wordtable.html) suggests that it is an important part.


I am not saying that our congregations don't care about deep scriptural studies, however, I do believe people are wanting more than the same ole Bible stories that have been told all of their lives.

I agree totally. I am doing a series of Sunday School lessons at a UM church dealing with familiar Bible stories (Gideon, Jonah, Cain, etc.). The theme is "Revisiting," taking a fresh look at what people thought they knew about those familiar stories. The response has been amazing. Of course, that takes some effort to prepare for most people, which returns us to the problem of lack of biblical knowledge.


However, I do agree that the church needs to become more knowledgeable about the Bible's background, history, how to read/interpret, etc. But then again that requires people being interested in that type of information.

Yes, I think that is a vicious circle, implied in Kara's article. Still "interest" is to some degree a function of spiritual maturity, which may point to that same deeper problem.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Eric Frey]

Dennis,

I appreciate this thread, and I am sure the class you are teaching is fascinating. But I am not sure that is something the average lay Sunday School teacher could put together, research, and teach. What are some resources/curricula that you think would do a good job improving biblical literacy that an average lay teacher could utilize to immerse the class in scripture, and accomplish the things being discussed here?

[Bob Hunt]

Dennis, I think if we all come "hungry" and seeking to know more, God would reward all of us
and we would be able to search without animosity and pride.. If we come with the attitude
that we know more than anyone else and our theories are correct, instead of coming
with humility, than it wont work. (Just my two cents worth)

[Kazimiera Fraley]

my general thoughts on the issue of having scripture in service but worrying about whether people are listening/pay attention/internalizing the scripture works well with the old saying: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'im drink." (and I would like to add) but you if you don't want him to die of dehydration you had better keep leading 'im to water. Eventually he will drink or die but either way you did right by 'im
As with everything else which are important parts of our corporate life which encourage the Church to be a healthy Body of Christ, we need to keep on doing them even if people are not responding or participating like we think they should.

Also, I would like to note that even though I have initiated observance of the Christian Calendar, having also incorporated liturgical color into our sanctuary and have preached and read the Lectionary passages at both of the churches I have pastored in my meager 10 years of ministry and have received many people complain, "isn't that a little bit 'too Catholic' Pastor?" I have never had someone complain that we are reading "too much Scripture" or referred to the proliferation of Scripture reading in the service as "too Catholic." I am pretty sure if they went to go voice that complaint they realized how ludicrous it is to actually say, "There is too much scripture in our worship service, Pastor." :D

[Sarah Smith]

Interesting thread, and once again has me thankful for where and when I grew up.

Greenstamps and Gold Bond Stamps would get you a Bible: Catholic or KJV. You could go to Woolworth's and spend $2 if you wantd RSV, but most parents didn't have the $2 to blow that way. These would be plain text or maybe with some kiddie pictures added.

When you went to church, neither church in our village could afford luxuries like quarterlies and special books, etc.

So the teachers and preachers chose a book of the Bible and taught or preached their way through it.

By the time most of us were in high school we had a good handle on what the Bible says and where it says it. So if someone tried to teach or preach something to us that didn't square, we knew when to walk away.

The kids grew up with a goodly number of preachers, missionaries, and song leaders among us.

Maybe there is something to be said for low tech.

[Duane Maynard]

Great thread!

After ten years or so teaching an adult SS class what is being discussed here hit home. Trying all that I know to help the class actually study ahead I finally arrived at a KISS solution. Keeping it simple somewhat. Prayer for the Spirit to lead the discussion, based on what I can see as the main focus of each lesson, has opened most lessons up. We use the Adult Faith Connections and I do use the IBL for background. There is so much in each lesson that things could go many different directions with lots left over for several more.

What I have found is that many times the Spirit will lead into discussions that go where I have not planned and they go deep because we encourage it. Also I have noticed - as I release my hold on class direction, somehow we often end up discussing spiritual / personal problems that the Pastor has already planned to key on in his sermon, complete with new scripture to explore.

My wife and I attended a married couples retreat this past spring where the same thing happened. The Pastor / leader of the retreat, started out with general discussions found at many retreats about everyday marriage problems. Then the last day he asked us all to pray and list several things that needed discussed on a personal level that was hampering marriages.

Money, sex and anger topped the lists. We broke into men in one group, wives in the other to discuss money and sex :)

Then we came together to discuss anger. Scriptures were read, prayer was said and then we were encouraged to share openly. Slowly one then another spoke up. The Pastor read several more scripture and prayed again. The Spirit came and I just sat in awe as people bared some anger problems that made my heart break and shout for joy almost at the same time. It was truly a powerful move of God.

It was prayer, scripture, encouragement, sensitivity, scripture and prayer!

Do it again Lord, do it again!

Duane