Freedom and Knowledge

[Todd Erickson]

One of the most important things for us to define, and one of the toughest for us to implement, is Love.

Our society has watered down Love extremely (it doesn't help that we use only one word for love, and probably should use "really like" instead of "love", i.e, love has become an adjective to show intensity rather than it's own concept) and made it very difficult to know what people are talking about when they say it.

Along with how we've come to misuse terms like "Tolerance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration)", Love has become a concept which seems weak and watered down, something that asks us to just put up with things without any real involvement, to the degree that we tend to modify Love with things like "Holy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy)", which would mean that "Holy" in and of itself has nothing to do with Love (Which is not a Wesleyan theological concept) in order to safeguard us from the excesses permitted under love. This despite the fact that our primary example for Love is Jesus Christ coming and dying for us on the cross.

My observation has been that in practice, we the church practice love as a sort of benevolent allowance until such a time as people are, in our eyes, "fully educated as to what is expected of them". Once this education, this transmission of knowledge has occurred, we are freed to end our permissiveness of whatever behavior "they should not be doing". At which point, we love them by rebuking them, and then refusing their presence until they act on the knowledge of "what they should not be doing" and bring their lives into line with that knowledge.

It is once again arguable that the example we see in Christ is that he brought overwhelming love and acceptance to those around Him trapped by sin, and in the midst of that incredible Grace, the Spirit was able to work Preveniently to change their lives.

If our congregations are, for the most part, going to practice exclusionary love based on knowledge unless those of the congregation keep their sin a secret, then in truth, we are practicing the opposite of what we see in Jesus, and we are actually hampering the Spirit in being able to work in the hearts of both ourselves and those around us.

It also seems that, aside from perhaps preaching on the topic of Love, we for the most part hope that the Holy Spirit gets ahold of people throughout the week and changes them so that they then Love others as they should. But if the overall general behaviour of our culture works against this, what is the likelihood that any more room is being made during the week?

Thus, the question becomes, what can or should the church as a culture be doing, what disciplines should it be encouraging, so that people love like Christ, rather than against what Christ wasn't?

[Hans Deventer]

Actually, Todd, what we see in Christ is that His love towards those who were rejected was displayed by acceptance of their person ( not their sin), while He had some strong rebuke for those who were the ones doing the rejection. Still out of love, I am sure. So it seems to me His behaviour had a lot ot do with the question whether He was talking to those in power, doing the rejection, or to those who were rejected, either as "people who don't know the law" or as those who surely did, but rejected it all the same (tax collectors). I think we need to take this into account.

[Todd Erickson]

Actually, Todd, what we see in Christ is that His love towards those who were rejected was displayed by acceptance of their person ( not their sin), while He had some strong rebuke for those who were the ones doing the rejection. Still out of love, I am sure. So it seems to me His behaviour had a lot ot do with the question whether He was talking to those in power, doing the rejection, or to those who were rejected, either as "people who don't know the law" or as those who surely did, but rejected it all the same (tax collectors). I think we need to take this into account.

So, Hans, in actual practice, how do we reject somebody's sin while loving and accepting them? Serious question, what should that look like? My point is that in actual practice, we tend (in my experience) to drive sin underground rather than bringing it to the surface where it can truly be healed. I'm not saying that we should not accept and tolerate all sin because we don't want people to leave, I'm asking, what does love look like in this?

[Kevin Rector]

So, Hans, in actual practice, how do we reject somebody's sin while loving and accepting them? Serious question, what should that look like? My point is that in actual practice, we tend (in my experience) to drive sin underground rather than bringing it to the surface where it can truly be healed. I'm not saying that we should not accept and tolerate all sin because we don't want people to leave, I'm asking, what does love look like in this?

I suppose it looks like saying something like, "does no one condemn you, well neither do I. Go home, and leave your life of sin."

[Hans Deventer]

So, Hans, in actual practice, how do we reject somebody's sin while loving and accepting them? Serious question, what should that look like?

It is very hard. Nowadays people so strongly identify with their sins, that the rejection of the one pretty much (in their view) equals personal rejection. Gracious, that even goes for their views, let alone their behaviour!
And we do not accept authority. So who are you in the first place to tell me that what I do is sinful?

Bring these together and the result is an almost insolvable paradox.

The only direction I see we could take is building a relationship from which we gain the authority to speak. Which would be helped tremendously by transparancy, true friendship and faithfulness. And even then, much patience and a long term commitment are needed.

[Todd Erickson]

Wouldn't those be aspects of mentoring and discipleship then, where discipleship is generational, in essence, and that we were all discipling and being discipled throughout our lives?

Kevin, when somebody references "I suppose it looks like saying something like, "does no one condemn you, well neither do I. Go home, and leave your life of sin."" that still essentially comes down to just saying or thinking something. At what point does this become something we actually live? I probably am not communicating this well, but as Hans was saying, it's so absent from our culture...

[Paul DeBaufer]

I wonder if it doesn't look like Jesus. He comes alongside of people, walks with them and they with Him. He engages them in a very personal way, He enters their lives and allows them into His, relationship. While He is the teacher and guide, leader, He doesn't seem to be the "boss", the manager, so to speak. He has authority, speaks authoritatively, yet never demands this, it is freely given Him. It seems that it is through these mutually engaging relationships that people find out who He is and the freedom that comes from that relationship.

I think for us it means opening the doors of our homes, lives and hearts to those we may even see as less than us. It means thinking of them as highly or more so than we think of ourselves. It means opening ourselves. becoming vulnerable. It cannot be faux friendship, friendship on Sunday mornings within the confines of the church building, which I have experienced in the church time and again. It must be authentic, real. We must quit treating people as though they were projects. We need to stop treating people like we treat missions in the developing world, us that have being generous and giving to those less fortunate. When we do this we rob not only those who God has put before us of their humanity we rob ourselves as well. Jesus really did know what he was talking about when He told us to love others as ourselves.

I think, then, that when we can be open and vulnerable, then we can begin to love to enter into loving relationship with those who walk through our doors and walk with them in true authentic relationship. I think that we will all find healing and deliverance in this.

[Bob Hunter]

I wonder if it doesn't look like Jesus. He comes alongside of people, walks with them and they with Him. He engages them in a very personal way, He enters their lives and allows them into His, relationship. While He is the teacher and guide, leader, He doesn't seem to be the "boss", the manager, so to speak. He has authority, speaks authoritatively, yet never demands this, it is freely given Him. It seems that it is through these mutually engaging relationships that people find out who He is and the freedom that comes from that relationship.

I think for us it means opening the doors of our homes, lives and hearts to those we may even see as less than us. It means thinking of them as highly or more so than we think of ourselves. It means opening ourselves. becoming vulnerable. It cannot be faux friendship, friendship on Sunday mornings within the confines of the church building, which I have experienced in the church time and again. It must be authentic, real. We must quit treating people as though they were projects. We need to stop treating people like we treat missions in the developing world, us that have being generous and giving to those less fortunate. When we do this we rob not only those who God has put before us of their humanity we rob ourselves as well. Jesus really did know what he was talking about when He told us to love others as ourselves.

I think, then, that when we can be open and vulnerable, then we can begin to love to enter into loving relationship with those who walk through our doors and walk with them in true authentic relationship. I think that we will all find healing and deliverance in this.

Paul,

I appreciate this post. I have been convinced for sometime that Christians need to recover the lost discipline of hospitality. Hospitality needs to be reimagined to include folks who are marginalized. In other words, we have to show hospitality on the margins of society. We are hospitable with folks who are like us, but are we hospitable with folks who rub us the wrong way? Hospitality is what I would call an "off-road" discipline. The monastics practiced hospitality and in doing so they regarded everyone (guests, strangers, sojourners, etc.) as a Christ himself. This has been forgotten and needs to be recovered.

[Kevin Rector]

Wouldn't those be aspects of mentoring and discipleship then, where discipleship is generational, in essence, and that we were all discipling and being discipled throughout our lives?

Kevin, when somebody references "I suppose it looks like saying something like, "does no one condemn you, well neither do I. Go home, and leave your life of sin."" that still essentially comes down to just saying or thinking something. At what point does this become something we actually live? I probably am not communicating this well, but as Hans was saying, it's so absent from our culture...

Hans sort of hit the nail on the head that it's about relationships. We had a young lady started coming to our last church. One day she showed up with her kids for Easter. The church loved her and her kids. My wife and I made some brownies for them (they lived across the street from the church and we lived next door). Over time we really built a relationship with them. They were embraced.

She was in a disreputable business and a recovering heroin addict. She dressed in ways that were not appropriate for church. No one ever said anything to her about it. The church just loved her. Over time her hems got lower and her shirts got more covering... remember no one said anything. One day she told me she was leaving her disreputable business. One day she told me she was quitting smoking. None of these were things anyone ever had to say to her. But the relationships she forged with the people of the church who loved her unconditionally caused her to see a better way to live (guided of course by the Holy Spirit). One day, she called me over and told me that she had accepted Christ as her savior.

Another person in the church remarked to me once that in the old days his grandpa would have taken his suit coat off and put it on her and escorted her out the door of the church the way she was dressed. I said it was a good thing that I wasn't the pastor back then because I would have had to escort his grandpa out of the building after that. That grandson was on the fence about whether he wanted to be a christian after growing up in a legalistic church. He's now a fully devoted follower of Christ... in large part because of how he saw the church love that woman.

It's all about love. But Hans hits the nail on the head when he points out a lot people identify too closely with their sin. It has become intertwined with their soul. Those people are very hard to win... period.

[Todd Erickson]

We have those people in the church as well. Every Sunday is a view (perhaps loudly) into how they're struggling with sin and how they're a bad person, they can't come to grips with being freed, with being a new creation, with struggling alongside the rest of us. We can take on the identity of being a sinner far more than being saved and sanctified we can live into...

Increasingly, I'm becoming convinced that we all live in our own contexts, and it can be very difficult to ask meaningful questions that arise from our personal context if they aren't widely reflected in the contexts of others. Derrida speaks again...

[Billy Cox]

It is very hard. Nowadays people so strongly identify with their sins, that the rejection of the one pretty much (in their view) equals personal rejection. Gracious, that even goes for their views, let alone their behaviour!
And we do not accept authority. So who are you in the first place to tell me that what I do is sinful?

Bring these together and the result is an almost insolvable paradox.

The only direction I see we could take is building a relationship from which we gain the authority to speak. Which would be helped tremendously by transparancy, true friendship and faithfulness. And even then, much patience and a long term commitment are needed.

A random thought just struck me.

We typically think of suspending judgment as 'judging' them innocent. What if suspending judgment actually means judging them neither guilty nor innocent, but accepting tham as a person worthy of relationship, simply by virtue of the Imago Dei?

[Billy Cox]

So, Hans, in actual practice, how do we reject somebody's sin while loving and accepting them? Serious question, what should that look like? My point is that in actual practice, we tend (in my experience) to drive sin underground rather than bringing it to the surface where it can truly be healed. I'm not saying that we should not accept and tolerate all sin because we don't want people to leave, I'm asking, what does love look like in this?

Todd, I have pretty much decided that the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mantra is a fraudulent ethic based on a functional disbelief in the Holy Spirit.

[Dan Henderson]

Todd, I have pretty much decided that the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mantra is a fraudulent ethic based on a functional disbelief in the Holy Spirit.

What about: "Don't hate the playa', hate the game"?

[Kyle Borger]

It seems that we all struggle with sin. We do our best to live as we think everyone wants us to live. But we fail. That's because we keep looking at the results. It all starts with the condition of the heart and one primary action. I believe there is one thing God requires to help us with our sin.

Permission

God requires us to give God permission to take charge of our heart and our lives. We think we usually do that with one simple prayer, but it requires more than words. It requires an actual commitment and action of surrender. A willingness to allow God do whatever is required to fix the problem. Usually that means exposing our sin. Quite often we refuse to give God complete control because we don't want others to know about our sin. We know we must not sin so we set our minds to being better, to being more determined, to trying harder. Yet, we continue to fail because God doesn't want us to be able to do it. He wants us to depend completely upon him for everything in our lives. That is why the condition of the heart is important and why quite often the sin is an expression of the person. The sinful act is an expression of a refusal to give God control of that part of their heart.

That is why giving God complete control is so transformational.

[Todd Erickson]

But nobody can tell you how to give God complete control. Or how to surrender. They can just tell you that you need to do it, over and over.

Praying a prayer has no real change on my heart...in fact, I am told (we are all told) that our hearts must change before our prayer has any meaning.

At the same time, we are also told that only God can really change our hearts...

and that God won't actually change our hearts unless we ask completely from a heart that truly desires him.

Which seems to be a three part catch 22...

[Kyle Borger]

Sorry, it has taken me a few days to get back to this.

It seems to me that God created us to be completely dependent upon him except for one thing. Choice. God does not force himself upon us. In all circumstances we see failure when we act in our own power. Our power makes us weak. Yet in our weakness we find power. It is in our weakness that we allow God's power to shine through.

I understand the question but struggle with the answer.

My experience is that God allows us to get to a point where we doubt our own power, where we see no way out, where there is no other answer than God. At that point when we understand that we can do nothing outside of God and give God permission to save us that we are saved. What is required is that we are willing to experience whatever it is that God has in mind. Quite often our fear of having our sins exposed prevent us from accepting God's gift of salvation. Often times our lives must get to the point where the situation is worse than our fear of what might happen if we are exposed.

I don't know if I have answered your question. The Holy Spirit prepares us and in the moment when we see that in our own power we have nothing left, God reveals himself to us. In our weakness, God's power is revealed.

I often see Christians struggle with living as they believe God has intended. They are tired, they are exhausted. They are defeated. God does not expect us to do anything in our power or understanding except for the one thing. Give God permission. Once God is given permission over our heart then we begin to succeed in God's power so that God will be glorified in all that we do.

[Todd Erickson]

what does "giving God permission" look like?

[Kyle Borger]

what does "giving God permission" look like?

The primary thing that God gave man was free will, or the ability to choose, or you might say the ability to control his life and be his own god.

Giving God permission is giving God the control of your choices and being willing to experience the results.

Many Christian men are weakened and destroyed by an adverse fascination with the female body. Although these men claim Christ and seek forgiveness with each transgression, continue to fail. Their failure weakens their testimony and their commitment to Christ. They are determined to obey Christ in their own power through their own determination of how they will obey. They determine to be more mentally strong or to avoid situations that might cause them to fail. They do this primarily because they are afraid of what will happen if their sin is exposed to the church.

In this case these Christian men must give God permission to help them avoid this sin. In giving God permission they are agreeing to stop trying to do it within their own power and design and to instead do it in God's power but also accepting what may also happen as a result which will be that their sin will be exposed to at least one other person.

Once they finally accept it and allow God to work in their lives on this issue their is great relief when they release their secret sin and begin to receive help from their community.

God doesn't force himself upon us. God waits until we give God permission to enter our lives. We may think we have given God permission in all areas of our lives but if there is any area that we are afraid to have exposed to the light, then we have not given permission to control that area.

How do you give God permission?

Recognize that you lack the ability to control your life and that if you continue to control your life you will die. Reach out to God in any way you possibly can and ask God to provide you what you need to allow God to have control of your life. Ask God to help you know how to pray. Ask God to help you know how to take the next step. The first and the foremost important step is to cry out to God and simply ask God to take control. Then rely on God to begin providing all that you require to be who you were intended to be. Each step along the way continue to pray that God will provide everything that you need to serve Him. If you aren't sure you are willing, give God permission to make you willing. If you are too scared, ask God to give you confidence. In all things that you are lacking to serve God, request that God will provide those things.

[Todd Erickson]

The continuing issue here is that giving permission to an invisible, unencountered divine being to do something that I am not physically doing is...

The language is easy. Enacting the language, especially via the internet, is nigh impossible.

[Paul DeBaufer]

The continuing issue here is that giving permission to an invisible, unencountered divine being to do something that I am not physically doing is...

The language is easy. Enacting the language, especially via the internet, is nigh impossible.

I think that giving God permission, or turning our will over to Him is probably important. However, it seems that it is more an intellectual exercise more than anything. I can say it, might even have some vague idea what I mean by it, but I have no clue how to implement it on a practical level. Then only thing that becomes clear to me from reading the Bible is that I have to love, God and everybody else. That is something I can look to Jesus and see what it looks like then I can try to practice it in my own life and world. Maybe that's what turning my will over to God means in a practical sense, I just don't know. I do know that my personal suffferings of loneliness and living as one unforgiven (not by God, I don't think, but in the eyes of the world and most within the church) are not really alleviated by loving others I do that in spite of, live beyond myself.

[Kevin Rector]

Jeren Rowell wrote in the Ashes to Fire journal for today's text, "...the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives is about much more than teaching us ideas we need to know. The Spirit forms the very life of Christ in us."

That seemed pertinent to the conversation.

[Todd Erickson]

What I find very often in Christian character development conversation is that people make statements like "Ride a bike" with reference to things like surrender, etc.

If I don't know how to ride a bike, then there's a variety of methods I can pursue to learn, and to develop my balance, and to become a rider. It may take a while, but there are specific steps.

Or "Bake a cake" or "change the oil on your car".

But things like "Surrender to God" are incredibly subjective and mystical. God is not a vending machine, He is not a "one size fits all" kind of God. What works for one person may, in fact, completely fail to ever have any relevance for another.

Which probably has a lot to do with why we're bad at love, as well.

Church tends toward homogenity, but being homogenous is not the same as being united in love...it's really a shortcut.

Peter Rollins talks about this...I come to church and I have an experience, but I only have that experience at church, so I keep having to come back to church for that experience. Or, I don't have that experience at all, no matter where I go, and I'm always searching for it. He says that church should be the place where we can really come to terms, along with other people, that we cannot, in fact, be fulfilled or be made happy by obtaining this thing, that pursuing that thing that will fill the hole inside of us, even if that thing is God, is an idol, and it will destroy us.

So much of the language we use is Zen while trying as hard as possible not to be Zen. It is only when I make room for the Holy Spirit in my life that I change, and not by my will, but by my very unwill, my very unparticipation, my very uncontroll, but having recognized the need for change, it is expected as a Christian that I will change as fast as possible. But for the most part, reading my bible is not going to change me, church attendance is not going to change me, sunday school teaching is not going to change me...

Time, and life, and room for the Holy Spirit is.

And it doesn't matter how much I scream, or how infuriated I am...it just is, and this is life, and we're here. Surrender is, or it isn't. There isn't any way to be more specific, there isn't any better language. What worked for you is probably a complete disaster for me, at least partially because of the things which I haven't been able to deal with in my life which are different from the ones in your life.

The most we can do, in the end, is bear with each other in Grace and keep walking.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Psychologically the “Will of God” appears in your inner experience in the form of a superior deciding power.

Just read this Jung quote after reading the posts here. Wonder if it has some bearing, relevance.

[Kyle Borger]

I think the inability to simply intelectually understand a statement regarding how one follows Christ points towards the importance of discipleship groups or life transformation groups. I am mentoring 2 guys right now. It is in living life with them that they are beginning to understand what God wants from them. It wasn't a simple one time answer. It was discussing life. It was accountability. It was allowing them to see how I lived life. All that together has allowed the Holy Spirit to begin working in their lives in a whole new way.

[Ian Gentles]

Not having looked at thread, thus far, I feel christian love can be no different from love shown by none-christians. My experiance, sadly in many cases, we christians talk of love a lot, but truely show it a little. We christians do expect people to click all the boxes for acceptance into our fellowships. This can make christians people who wear a mask. We dont feel accepted unles we are sound doctrinaly, nice middle-class people. How would we feel about those rough Gallileans (Disciples) joining our fellowships? As for weird wild teachers, how would we cope with Jesus?
I aim these remarks at myself most of all, do I posses true christian love?

[Todd Erickson]

I think the inability to simply intelectually understand a statement regarding how one follows Christ points towards the importance of discipleship groups or life transformation groups. I am mentoring 2 guys right now. It is in living life with them that they are beginning to understand what God wants from them. It wasn't a simple one time answer. It was discussing life. It was accountability. It was allowing them to see how I lived life. All that together has allowed the Holy Spirit to begin working in their lives in a whole new way.

My Dad talks about how, at various points in his life where he needed leadership, guidance, mentorship, etc., God provided somebody and it guided and shaped the next stage of his development. This has never occured for me.

Mentoring sounds good, but in the circles I travel in, it seems to have been relegated to "People say they want accountability, but they really just want an excuse to continue to behave like they want to, so what's the point?"

[Kyle Borger]

My Dad talks about how, at various points in his life where he needed leadership, guidance, mentorship, etc., God provided somebody and it guided and shaped the next stage of his development. This has never occured for me.

Mentoring sounds good, but in the circles I travel in, it seems to have been relegated to "People say they want accountability, but they really just want an excuse to continue to behave like they want to, so what's the point?"

It does take a commitment and a desire to change. I was not discipled or mentored and felt totally inadequate to mentor anyone else, but in studying the scriptures it is evident to me that we are not Christ like if we do not make disciples of Christ. I began meeting with my guys and we stumbled through it. In fact I feel like I am still trying to figure out how to do it. But there is a change in their lives which has been witnessed by myself, by their families, and by them. There is a change in my life as well.

God created us to live in relationships. Living in real relationships with other people helps us learn how to live in relationship with God. There is a greater power of the Holy Spirit at work when my life is shared with other people.

I am just now realizing that it is impossible to truly know God by myself. No amount of study, or thought, or prayer will bring me closer to God without relationship within the community of God. It is through the community that I gain strength, that I gain additional insight, that I sense an increased power within the Holy Spirit. It is my brothers and sisters in Christ that keep me going. We all represent Christ to each other and together we more perfectly represent Christ.

Yes, I have read the statements concerning Christian's and their lack of true love or their lack of desire for accountability and my response is that those Christians have no idea what it means to be a follower of Christ. A prayer seeking a ticket to Heaven does not satisfy all that it means to be a Christian. That is where the mentoring process comes in. Through living life together the younger Christian begins to see what living for Christ looks like. They have someone else who begins to point out the areas of their life that don't conform to a life like Christ.

And to just kind of make a point here...

Many of Paul's statements regarding accountability and calling out a fellow brother are best done within the context of a loving discipleship group or mentoring group. Judgement such as some would suggest within the church will only bring great harm if not done within the context of a loving relationship. Most of our churches today do not have those type of relationships.

Yes, you are witnessing many Christian's who do not act Christ like. Who do not act within the power of the Holy Spirit. Who seem to not even know Christ. The fact is that they don't. You can't know Christ until you allow Christ to transform your heart. How does Christ transform your heart? You give him permission. How do you give permission? There is prevenient grace that is at work within all of us that is drawing us toward God. So the answer is that you don't have it in you to properly seek God. God is seeking you and at some point in time, you accept. You may not even be able to do that and we must recognize that there is power within the prayers of the community and it may be the prayers of those who love you that provides that which you do not have.

Our spiritual life is not based on just our own ability. We are a part of a larger community and the health of that community will impact the ability of its believers to love God and live as followers of Christ.

If you want to see the power of the Holy Spirit at work, watch when a group of people all begin giving God permission in their lives. As that group grows the power of the Holy Spirit grows. In the last 10 years in the Horn of Africa they grew from 200 people in church to over 200,000. Think it was all about the people and their ability to obey? No, it was all about people giving God permission in their lives and then trusting that God was powerful enough to provide that which they could not do themselves. The structure that they created was based on the movement of the Holy Spirit. Anything that we attempt to do in our own strength will fail. When we follow in our strength, we are weak. We have been created to reflect God's power. That is why God's power shines through when we recognize our weakness. We aren't meant to do it on our own. We are meant to do it all within the power of God. We are meant to be weak so that the glory of God shines through and through all things we recognize that God is our only hope. Our only hope for survival to even breath is because of God.

All I can tell you is when you get broken down to the point where you don't know how to even exist anymore. When you get broken down to the point where you recognize that you are such a huge failure that you no longer know how to provide for your family, you no longer no how to have relationships, you no longer know how to even get up out of bed, and then you cry out to God to help you. You cry out to God and you are willing to let God have every part of your life. You are willing to let God expose all of your sins because it doesn't matter anymore. You no longer have pride. You no longer have anything to hide because anything other than God will mean certain death. Then in that point when you have no power remaining, nothing left that can even keep you alive, then you will find the power of God. Then you will find the saving power of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit at work within your life.

What keeps most Christians from experiencing the power of the Holy Spirit is that they are unwilling to let God expose their secrets. We are afraid of what the church will say or our loved ones will say. We tell Jesus He can have our hearts. We tell Jesus He is in control and that we need His help to not sin, but we aren't willing to let Jesus do anything and everything that is necessary to actually transform our hearts if it means exposure.

If you are a follower of Christ, you must bring it all into the light. You can't hide it. You can't keep something back and work on it on your own. You will falter and that hidden sin will sap away the power of the Holy Spirit.

My dear friends there is a way. There is a way to follow Christ. There is a power within the Holy Spirit. But in order to gain all that God promises you must give up everything. In giving all that you are up to God you gain who you were meant to be as God's creation.

Sorry, for the sermon.

Todd, it will never make sense. It is experienced within community. Within a community of believers who have actually given it all to Christ. If you find one person who displays the fruits of the Spirit, latch onto that person. The truth is that I have encountered many Pastors who don't display the fruits of the spirit. There are many pastors who don't mentor and make disciples. Somehow we have been taught to believe that people will follow God and live correctly by talking at them. Jesus talked to people to prepare them for relationships. In our church we have made preaching the Holy Grail. You are less of a pastor and offered lower credentials if you can't prove that God has called you to preach and in some districts they view Ordination as something to be reserved for Senior Pastors. Preaching is only a foundational step that should lead people into real relationships and if that pastor is not in mentoring relationships with others then their ministry will fall far short of where it could be.

Guess I have said enough. Not sure if I am helping you, but your questions are helping me define a few things for myself.

[Paul DeBaufer]

So, my small group has taken a turn. Several of us had gone through a few classes together. Well when the last one ended we decided to keep meeting. Officially I am the "leader" but in truth we are more group led. A couple weeks ago we talked about love and community. We decided that both involve engaging in each others lives. That it is difficult because it means opening up in vulnerability. Yes, it can be uncomfortable. But our group seems committed to moving forward in love and community.

I had an idea that kink of came from Ikon, Peter Rollins community in Belfast. That is open space for creative expression. My idea was twofold. In allowing for the more artistic members of the group to be able to communicate the more intimate in a manner that they are comfortable with, yet may also help those like myself who are self conscious of showing another my creative attempts. Also, I believe that expressing ourselves creatively is a form of worshiping The Creator. Well, while reluctant at first (it took a couple attempts to get any artwork) it is a big hit and something the group wants to continue, something that seems to be binding us together. Yesterday the pastor said she wants to make public space to display these creative efforts for all to see.

Weekly I approach other members of the congregation and invite them to come sing to us, show us their painting, read a poem, whatever.

I think in using people's creative talents can help us open up to becoming community. Out of community comes authentic love and discipleship, or so goes the idea.

[Billy Cox]

The continuing issue here is that giving permission to an invisible, unencountered divine being to do something that I am not physically doing is...

The language is easy. Enacting the language, especially via the internet, is nigh impossible.

Phrases that refer to giving God permission are linguistic sausage. They slide right down our religious gullet, but we really shouldn't ask too many questions about its origin or meaning. :rolleyes:

[Kevin Rector]

Phrases that refer to giving God permission are linguistic sausage. They slide right down our religious gullet, but we really shouldn't ask too many questions about its origin or meaning. :rolleyes:

So Mr. Rolly-eyes, what constructive langauge would you use that has more substance or value than language of giving God permission? What works for you?

[Billy Cox]

So Mr. Rolly-eyes, what constructive langauge would you use that has more substance or value than language of giving God permission? What works for you?

I'll have to think on it...not a bad thing to do. I'm sure you realize that it's easier to point out absurdity than to propose a rational alternative.

[Todd Erickson]

It's interesting how the approach to Wesleyan Orthopraxy can change depending on whether one has a traditional systemic or process theology outlook to it.

Process takes God's provenient Grace and runs with it, while the more classical system outlook seems to create a much more dualistic, unchanged God that we must respond to situation, which I think is precisely what gives me so much trouble with the surrendering concept. How do i surrender to the immovable, since God is, within that model, just going to do what God is going to do anyway?

[Billy Cox]

It's interesting how the approach to Wesleyan Orthopraxy can change depending on whether one has a traditional systemic or process theology outlook to it.

Process takes God's provenient Grace and runs with it, while the more classical system outlook seems to create a much more dualistic, unchanged God that we must respond to situation, which I think is precisely what gives me so much trouble with the surrendering concept. How do i surrender to the immovable, since God is, within that model, just going to do what God is going to do anyway?

I've been mulling this over as well, and instead of systematic vs. process, I have framed my thinking in terms of transactional vs. relational...or mechanistic vs. organic.

I've also been mulling over the via media, about which I have sincere doubts. I think it has practical value in keeping an organization from consuming itself, but as a life strategy it seems quite Laodicean:



14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

[Todd Erickson]

The Via Media is much more about "don't sweat the small stuff" than it is being lukewarm.

And whether you're being process, or organic, or relational, or emergent, it's all roughly the same thing.

[Billy Cox]

The Via Media is much more about "don't sweat the small stuff" than it is being lukewarm.

I could agree with this, but it's just like Bresee's famous quote about essentials and non-essentials. It sounds good on paper, but you will never get all the factions to agree on what exactly counts as 'small stuff'.

Case in point: Infant baptism. In my estimation that is small stuff. (not just the one being baptized :) ) But I have sat through many tiresome arguments between Nazarenes for whom it is most definitely NOT small stuff. As a denomination, we go both ways, but I seriously doubt that there are many local churches that practice/promote both infant baptism and infant dedication.

The via media is simply a shorthand way of saying that we affirm the value of unilateral generosity. :smilies0231:


And whether you're being process, or organic, or relational, or emergent, it's all roughly the same thing.

Agreed. But in the court of religious buzzwordism, they carry different weights.

[Hans Deventer]

Case in point: Infant baptism. In my estimation that is small stuff. (not just the one being baptized :) ) But I have sat through many tiresome arguments between Nazarenes for whom it is most definitely NOT small stuff. As a denomination, we go both ways, but I seriously doubt that there are many local churches that practice/promote both infant baptism and infant dedication.

Most churches on our district do. In my local church, it's about 75% dedication, 25% infant baptism (rough guess). We have only one or two pastor on the district who apparently think that the quantity of water used in baptism defines salvation.......... I guess the Ministerial Credentials Board isn't perfect either.

[Todd Erickson]

My general observation, especially after taking a class on Wesleyan theology, is that many churches of the Nazarene are not very Wesleyan, so they don't actually believe or practice Via Media.

Much like Christ's "Love your enemy".

[Billy Cox]

Most churches on our district do. In my local church, it's about 75% dedication, 25% infant baptism (rough guess). We have only one or two pastor on the district who apparently think that the quantity of water used in baptism defines salvation.......... I guess the Ministerial Credentials Board isn't perfect either.

Sorry...I was operating in a USA specific context. :)

[Billy Cox]

My general observation, especially after taking a class on Wesleyan theology, is that many churches of the Nazarene are not very Wesleyan, so they don't actually believe or practice Via Media.

Oh I agree with you on that. I count myself as a Wesleyan, but I shake my head when I see/hear other Wesleyans act as though Wesleyan theology is even close to being a primary theological stream in the Church of the Nazarene.


Much like Christ's "Love your enemy".

Yeah, where's the middle ground on that? :)

[Hans Deventer]

Sorry...I was operating in a USA specific context. :)

Yeah, we're a bunch of weirdos for taking the Manual seriously, at least at this point :D

[Todd Erickson]

Yeah, we're a bunch of weirdos for taking the Manual seriously, at least at this point :D

More like driving on manual.