Forgiving and terrorists!

[Ian Gentles]

Wasnt sure what form to put this in, so opted for this one.

We are told as christians we must forgive, to leave judgment to God. But how does this work out with terrorists? I find the forgivness emotion hard to get a hold on in this subject? I remember after the Eniskillen bomb by IRA world went after one man who's daughter was killed, yet forgave. But world didnt follow up on another man, who when asked why he didnt do the same answered, "Who am I to forgive those who God hasnt forgiven?" Theologicaly he was correct, as forgivness is only obtained by those that seek it, all others are under condemnation! It would be different if a terrorist came to us and said, "I have done a terrible thing can you forgive me!"

I also wonder if folks seeking law dosent adiquetly punish a crime, find forgivness hard? Surely in normal murder we must have satisfation of seeing killer punished properly, if not by death, then at least life without release!
What people are seeing is, terrorists getting away with continual attrocities, and communities harboring them still living freely in our midst. Dont get me wrong, I am not on a hate muslims track, what I'm suggesting is, forgivness is hard when attitude of terrorists and many in their communities goes unrepenting!

So, how do we forgive terrorists? should we? is it possible?

[Hans Deventer]

Wasnt sure what form to put this in, so opted for this one.

I think this subject is quite theological, Ian.

We are told as christians we must forgive, to leave judgment to God. But how does this work out with terrorists? I find the forgivness emotion hard to get a hold on in this subject? I remember after the Eniskillen bomb by IRA world went after one man who's daughter was killed, yet forgave. But world didnt follow up on another man, who when asked why he didnt do the same answered, "Who am I to forgive those who God hasnt forgiven?" Theologicaly he was correct, as forgiveness is only obtained by those that seek it, all others are under condemnation!


I'm really wondering if that is true. I would say that God has in Christ reconciled the world to Himself, and in fact of course He sent his son "while we were yet sinners". I believe God loves us and has forgiven us, for Christ died for everyone. The problem is, if we don't receive this gift of grace and forgiveness and rather delight in pursuing hatred and revenge, we'll find that there will be no place for us in heaven because we simply don't fit there and don't want to be there either. For heaven is a place where we forgive and serve.

I actually think God has forgiven us, has forgiven the entire world. But will we accept this gift? And will we allow it to change us? Will we be forgiving as well? Will we live like Kingdom residents, or serve the devil? Bob Dylan had it right, "you gotta serve somebody, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you gotta serve somebody".

[Ian Gentles]

Loved that Dylon song :)

I think people will see this question, answer it in different ways, hence opening it for discussion.

Personaly I feel I would face judgment if I treated a terrorist badly. I'm not meaning not treat him according to law, I am thinking more personaly.
Terrosrists are evil, we all agree with this, their acts decerve the full force of the laws of civilistation to be brought upon them. Here I'm thinking about question in a more personal way, how I feel, my emotions, can I truely forgive? If I cant, and many who lost loved onse sure cant, and we cant criticise them! But I'm told to have a loving, forgiving attitude. I guess its my humanity via my spiritual life thats in conflict. Humanly I want to strike out hard, to hurt them bad, but God says, "Not your role Ian, I'm the Judge!"

[Barbara Moulton]

So, how do we forgive terrorists? should we? is it possible?

I watched a documentary the other day about an eleven year old girl who had been lured to her death in Toronto.

It took several years to find and convict the killer, and it was only made possible once DNA evidence that had been collected at the time could be analyzed.

Anway, two things I noticed. That the parents of the girl who were interviewed were still together. That is not always the case. When a child is murdered, marriages often can't survive that stress. Also, the mother expressed that, despite what had happened, she advocated against Canada ever returning the death penalty.

I can't remember her exact words, but she implied that if she allowed her heart to be filled with anger and the desire for vengeance, she would only be damaging herself.

I don't know if she was a Christian or not, but I as I thought about it, I realized that having this spirit was probably one factor in the survival of her marriage.

And I thought about the fact that forgiveness in this case, really meant that she had given up her "right" to seek vengeance. It did not mean that she had to go to the man who brutally killed her precious child and say that she forgave him. It did not mean that she did not seek justice.

It meant releasing her spirit from anger and hatred that would naturally occur as a result of this despicable act.

I think some of this applies to your question Ian. I have not personally and directly been affected by a terrorist attack as you have. I have not seen the things that you have. So perhaps I have no right to speak to your quesiton.

But perhaps forgiveness of a terrorist simply means that we ask God's to help us release our spirits from the chains of anger and hatred that are natural reactions. And that, when a terrorist is caught, we seek only justice...not vengeance.

[Marsha Lynn]

"Who am I to forgive those who God hasnt forgiven?"
One could also ask: Who am I to take on the role of God in demanding that evil-doers be made accountable to me personally?

I agree with the direction Barbara took the discussion. We don't forgive people as a concession to them, but for the sake of our own spiritual and emotional health. In forgiving, we let go of the spirit of vengeance and we trust God (and society) to see that justice is done. It sometimes requires great faith in the ultimate triumph of good over evil to do so. If we don't have that faith, it can appear that evil people are flourishing while the good are perishing and that forgiveness only perpetuates that travesty. Faith gives us the long view so that we can see that in the end evil always and forever loses even without vengeance on our part.

Marsha

[Ian Gentles]

I think Barbaras point is well put, however justice has to fullfill needs of those who suffer, this is clear in scripture. Here I'm not talking politicaly but emotionaly!
Also, we are yet to deal with terrorists who are, probably, "the scum of the earth", an emotional statment!! I am not sure if amy family of mine were killed by them I wouldent be able to feel any mercy! This to me is the whole question! I have honestly talked to folks who said on media, "We forgive", who are actualy going through conflicting emotions...maybe forgivness thing is being forced upon them by their christianity, and emotional turmoil? My advice to all, dont listen to one off statments, they can be emotionaly forced, honest!

[Marsha Lynn]

I think Barbaras point is well put, however justice has to fullfill needs of those who suffer, this is clear in scripture. Here I'm not talking politicaly but emotionaly!
Then the question becomes: Does nurturing a stony heart toward evil-doers fulfill the emotional needs of those who suffer? Do our hearts mend faster when we harden them or when we let them break and trust God to put them back together?


Also, we are yet to deal with terrorists who are, probably, "the scum of the earth", an emotional statment!! I am not sure if amy family of mine were killed by them I would be able to feel any mercy!
Well, the 'scum of the earth' assessment might be very dependent on your viewpoint. Aren't we all justifiably seen as 'scum of the earth' by someone? If nothing else, the fact that we throw away food in a starving world surely invites that sort of assessment by those who are hungry.

As to feeling mercy, I'm not sure forgiveness necessarily includes specific feelings. Forgiveness is simply a decision to let someone else deal with the evil-doer, a choice to withdraw from the class-action suit because we know that there's someone else looking out for our best interests who will make sure justice is done without our participation on the prosecution team.

I just read about a 9/11 victim's family who is suing the institutions funneling financial support to terrorists. It's a novel idea. I hope it makes a difference in the ability of people to terrorize the world. I suspect that any success, however, will have a huge toll on the people behind the lawsuit -- financially, emotionally, spiritually, and physically -- that it will consume them and slow the healing process. Forgiveness is a self-preserving decision to quit allowing the injustice one has experienced to eat away at one's inner health and to move on in life.

Marsha

[Ian Gentles]

I think if you saw the aftermath views might change!
We are dealing with a very emotive subject, and we will fall fowl if we keep demanding forgivness!
My point was, how do we approach this very real subject realisticaly?

[Hans Deventer]

Ian, I think we simply never got down to living the Sermon on the Mount. I'm getting more and more convinced that Jesus wasn't joking or trying to lead us into despair but actually showing the way. A way that is impossible, unless we really sell out completely to Him. As long as anything is left within us that looks for worth, value, safety in anything but Him, we can't live as He wants us to. That is probably the very reason why it is so hard for the rich to enter the kingdom (but not impossible!).

The other day, I visited my mother in law together with Hannie. She's in a wheelchair, unable to do much at all on her own. She can't care for people anymore like she used to. Still, she's a grateful woman.

And I could not help but wonder to what extent God would need to take my capabilities from me before I really start to understand that everything but Jesus Himself is garbage and will ultimately let me down.


Thank you for raising this issue, my friend! It's issues like these that expose us. They are like the two edged sword, and they cut. But God's sword needs to cut before it can heal.

[Ian Gentles]

Some points:

1 We cant be forgiven unless we forgive.
2 But does terrorism demand forgivness?
3 If our kids were killed by terrorists, and we couldent forgive, does that mean we are unforgiven?
4 Is terrorism personal, as it is international, does it require our personal forgivness?
5 If a terrorist is killed by your son, serving in Iraq, does he need to forgive person he killed to be forgiven?

I guess its a deep subject folks, please keep talking!

[Barb Bouldrey]

Ian,

A Christian must forgive to be forgiven. A Christian cannot hate and allow hate to live within. A Christian, when they forgive, gives up his right to demand an apology, gives up his right to hate. Once we forgive we do not have to demand justice. Forgiving is enough.

We forgive even if the enemy never apologizes, pays their punishment, or makes restitution. We forgive and let our forgiving be enough to heal us..through God's Spirit.

Forgiveness is not easy. Forgiveness in not automatic. Forgiveness must come from within, but from Christ within.

And often we have to forgive over and over and over.

Barb

[Barb Bouldrey]

P.S.

Terrorists do not demand forgiveness...God demands it.

[Ian Gentles]

Come on folks, answer my points honestly ;)

[Barb Bouldrey]

Ian,
What are you looking for? Do you want Christians to tell you it is acceptible to God to hate terrorists?

No one said it was not possible to hate. No one said it is not normal to hate. No one said it was EASY to forgive.

But the honest answer is YES, GOD EXPECTS US TO FORGIVE EVERYONE WHO HURTS US NO MATTER HAD BAD OR DEEP THAT HURT IS.

Read I Corinthians 2: 5-11. Paul says that if some had grieved you, you must forgive....lest Satan get advantage of YOU.

Read I John and see that John says that if we say we love God and hate our brother we are liars and God is not in us.

Read Jesus's words where he says if we come to give an offering to God and remember something we have against someone else, go make it right. he also says if we do not forgive God will not forgive us.

I do not know what other honest answers you want.

Forgiveness is often very hard...but it is necessary. Forgiveness is not always instantaneous, but often a process of working through the hate until we can forgive.

Barb

[Hans Deventer]

Some points:

1 We cant be forgiven unless we forgive.
2 But does terrorism demand forgivness?
3 If our kids were killed by terrorists, and we couldent forgive, does that mean we are unforgiven?
4 Is terrorism personal, as it is international, does it require our personal forgiveness?
5 If a terrorist is killed by your son, serving in Iraq, does he need to forgive person he killed to be forgiven?

I guess its a deep subject folks, please keep talking!


That is true
Where in the Scriptures do you read exceptions to this rule? We are to love our ennemies. I think terrorist qualify as such?
Ian, I cannot sit on God's throne. The Bible tells us a lot, and our Lord makes the point very forcefully in Matthew 18, answering Peter's question about forgiving. But it also says we are not to judge. But let me ask you a question. Are we really different? I think our big trap is that we always make other people's sins worse than ours. Jesus reverses this, and talks about the beam in our own eyes. About the ten thousands talents we owe God, and the few others owe us. That is crucial to understanding forgiveness. "But he who has been forgiven little loves little." I too often think of myself as a decent person. The truth is, the very same hatred the terrorists have, is at work in me. They just put it into action, but that does not really matter. It is the heart that matters, that is what defiles me.
You talked about our kids being killed, this is another situation? That could hardly be more personal, right?
Should we kill out of hatred, even in a war?

[BobHunt]

Im sure that all of you have answered this in more of a theological way, but it all is contained in this: we will only be able to forgive them by the power of God that is in us. Humanly speaking it is impossible.

[Ian Gentles]

Excellent Hans, you dealt with my points! :)

[Ian Gentles]

Superb Bob, yes we all seek to answer question theologicaly, which isnt really wrong. But emotionaly is may be impossible for some folks to forgive. Forgivness isnt just words, its an attitude that endures. I would suggest that even christians faced with horror, say death of a loved one, then hearing terrorists rejoice and justify said killing, would have an almost impossible time forgiving! Also, I do wonder if there is a kind of culture that forces christians to say, "Oh I forgive" as its seemingly expected of them? I also think we would have a problem in that terrorism is particularly sickeningly hatefull. One last thought, if some family, or buddies got killed by terrorists, we may feel we are betraying them if we offer forgivness! As to soldiers not hating their enemies, of course they do, its what motivates them! Ask any soldier in Iraq do they love, forgive, the terrorists?
Sorry I opened a big subject here, and I'm gratefull to Hans for support and guidance. But I feel we need looking at it from all angles. My own position as stated is I would want to forgive, but if that strenth isnt in me?

[BobHunt]

well, who is asking for forgiveness? I dont think the terrorists will even ask! And is there a place and time that we reach, like when the scripture says "Provoke not your children to wrath" where the terrorists can do that to a human being? They attack someone not even connected to them, completely innocent of any wrong doing in their direction. God can see in our heart if we forgive them, but we dont have to go to them in person and declare it. And, there are some consequences that come to them whether we forgive or not. We also can forgive, but knowing their attitude and prior actions, I dont feel it is wrong to avoid them and do everything we know to stop them.
Its like leaving a board in the road with a nail in it. We can run over it with the car and have a flat. Oh, thats ok, some tires are inferior quality. We change the tire but leave the board with the nail in the street so that we will run over it tomorrow. We want to treat that board as God would have us treat it. Sorry, very homey illustration.

[Ian Gentles]

I like the illistration very much. :)
But what if a christian cant forgive, being honest they say soo, does that mean they must be unforgiven? I know a person, a christian, who's good buddy was killed by a terrorist, he honestly admits he cant forgive them, he is an honest man!

[Ian Gentles]

Interesting point...honestly not trying to be funny, truely....but does God hate terrorists? OK, just thinking out loud, and for sure not getting at you sister, I honestly find your thinking stimulating. A terrorist is the worst kind of murderer, now God doesnt hates souls, but He hates evil, so does He hate terrorists?
But sticking with my position, though wanting deep debate on some questions, I beleive we must seek position of forgivness, my whole debate here is, it isnt easy, and what if folks cant?

[Chris Patton]

I am unsure how to deal with a particular situation, as if it is sterile situation whose reactions are disconnected from any past habits or forms of life. One of the practices it seems is missing in our churches today is the practice of confessing our sins towards one another. One of the ways this has adversely effected us is that it has also taken away from us the practice of forgiveness in minor situations (gossip, cutting comments, etc.) to help us form habits of forgiveness in our lives, even in large situations such as terrorism.

For a person who admits they cannot forgive, the people of God ought to become, for that one, a support; people who see the possibility of forgiveness in the situation especially when the person involved cannot see any such hope. We become advocates for them to God, asking for strength and advocates for God to the person, holding up the hope of forgiveness by the grace of God at work in our lives.

Finally, we acknowledge the feelings of people and the inability to forgive, as well as encourage and help them "live" in their struggle between not forgiving and God's call to forgive. We do not allow them to become "comfortable" in their unforgive-ness (I am making up words here). We do this in positive ways, as I said above, holding up the potential of forgiveness and keeping persons from becoming set in their position.

If we could habit ourselves better as a church, we would not have so many "unique" situations. For our lives would be practice for those difficult situations. Though life would still be difficult, but we would be ready and would act consistently in the ways we have been habited, in the way of Jesus Christ.

Chris

[Barb Bouldrey]

Ian,

God hates sin but loves the sinner. He expects that of us, too. We should hate terrorism, but love and forgive the terrorist.

Many of these terrorists have been trained and brainwashed into thinking they are doing Allah's will. They are convinced that they will receive mega awards in heaven for their actions.

Anway, we should hate sin, but not hate the sinner. We should not hate. We should forgive.

Barb

[BobHunt]

Much has been said about forgiveness of the terrorists. We must forgive, and it will be extremely hard esp if they have killed family or friends. Maybe one of our prayer requests should be for these who must forgive. Im sure they could use all the help they can get. You dont know how hard it is until you face it yourself.
I have heard of some parts of the Congress trying to inch towards legislation, so that they can have a say so in how we imprision these terrorists and how we treat them while in prision. This I am very much against. ome on here have as much as said that if you beleieve we dont torture terrorists then you are out of touch with reality. My suggestion is why dont we ask all our loved ones who are in the service and see. Someone should know these things. Lets get the truth from someone who is right there on the field.
I do not believe in torture, anyhow the info you would get out of one of them from torturing is sometimes very unreliable as well. However, if you knew that one of them was planning to explode a dirty bomb in a subway in the US, wouldnt you do all you could to find out where and when? Would it be just as wrong not to try and stop a terrorist by twisting his arm behind him and saving a mass murder of a few hundred or thousand than to write him a nice letter and say "we are asking and pleading that you tell us whats going on."
For that reason I do not want the Senator from Illinois or Senator from California telling the military what their job is and how to do it.
They are trying to pass a bill that would require Pres to tell what date we will be pulling out of Iraq. Are we going to send a letter to the insurgents telling them too? What magnificent planning that would be! We will be gone on July 1, so step up your attacks!

[Ian Gentles]

Interesting true story on torture. A German senior police officer tortured a man to find where an abducted child was hidden, he got the location but sadly the child was dead. He didnt torture because he hated the man, but because he loved the child! He off course was dismissed.but became a hero, and quite rightly so!

[Barbara Moulton]

3 If our kids were killed by terrorists, and we couldent forgive, does that mean we are unforgiven?


Well...let's think about this, terrible as it is.

If anyone (terrorist or not) killed one of my children, I don't know how I would handle the pain. I would be so racked with sorrow and anger that forgiveness would be utterly impossible in that time of grief. There is no use pretending otherwise.

If it came out my daughters suffered before they died (which would probably be the case), I know that every fibre of my mother's being would want me to inflict the same pain on that person.

But, here's the thing. If I spent the rest of my life, filled with anger, hatred and the desire for revenge, that would poison every other aspect of my life. It would probably damage relationships with my other child and my husband. It would isolate me from other people.

If I never forgave, if my heart remained full of all these negative and painful thoughts, how could I approach God's throne in prayer? What would my prayers be? As they are now or filled with cries for vengeance?

If I never was able to forgive the person who did this evil thing, the reality is that, not only would I have lost my daughter, I would have surrendered part of my own life to the control of the one who killed her.

If I don't forgive, the reality is that I surrender power to the person who has already wounded me by kiling my daughter. I allow that person to wound me over and over again.

But..if I forgive then I am effectively saying to him, "I refuse to let you continue to have power over my life."

Forgiveness does not mean the perpetrator would be let off the hook. Forgiveness would mean that I ask God to help me release the offender into His hands. Forgiveness would mean that the thoughts that scurry like poison in my mind would be surrendered to God.

In the initial pain after such a terrible event, I don't think God would expect me to forgive. The pain is too fresh. But I do think He would want me to say that I will one day be willing to forgive.

How do we pray for our enemies? Carl has taught me something here. He has told me to simply pray God's best for them. Because ultimately what is God's best for them, will be God's best for me as well.

And I think that if I can pray God's best for someone who has wounded me, if I can surrender my desire for vengence into God's hands, if I can decide not to entertain the angry thoughts that will inevitably come to mind then I have forgiven.

[Ian Gentles]

Maybe its more a matter off turning killers over to the judgment of God, in this way giving Him his rightfull place? If He saves them, well they will come to us in some way! I think hatred and desire for personal revenge is more a matter of giving God His place as judge, after all, we can never do to them what God is going to do!!

[Ian Gentles]

I have just watched a tv programme on London bombings, brought everything back. I feel I need to say this, so please forgive me, unless you saw what they did, you dont know what the feeling of hate can be like!
I probably shouldent be saying this, I'm truely apologetic, but at those times you learn what hate is all about. I'm fighting it, pray for me, for all of us!

[BobHunt]

good point, you said what I was trying to say...you can forgive, but forgiving them doesnt mean you have to make them your closest friends.

[Bruce Carriker]

I have heard of some parts of the Congress trying to inch towards legislation, so that they can have a say so in how we imprision these terrorists and how we treat them while in prision.

Yeah, complying with the Geneva Convention is a bad idea! Bob, you say we ought to ask our soldiers about what's going on. I don't believe most of our soldiers are guilty, but if they are, do you honestly think they're going to admit that they're torturing POW's? How naive is that?

John McCain has TONS of credibility in this area. It's not Harry Reid or Hillary Clinton or John Kerry who's pushing this legislation. It's a respected military veteran who has been a prisoner of war himself and understands that if we won't disavow torture, then it gives our opponents every excuse to torture our servicemen and -women who may become POWs.

Soldiers mostly want this legislation, because they know it protects them. It's Dick Cheney, the CIA, and the covert operatives who think they're above international law where the handling of prisoners of war is concerned.


For that reason I do not want the Senator from Illinois or Senator from California telling the military what their job is and how to do it.
They are trying to pass a bill that would require Pres to tell what date we will be pulling out of Iraq. Are we going to send a letter to the insurgents telling them too? What magnificent planning that would be! We will be gone on July 1, so step up your attacks!

Funny thing, though, Bob...we don't suspend the Constitution when our armed forces deploy. And in our representative form of government, the people's elected representatives have the right to demand to know what's going on. And they are fully within their rights to say, "We're not funding this thing any more. Bring them home." Would you rather they establish a timeline for withdrawl, or just decide they're finally fed up and all at once deny any further funding, except for the purpose of withdrawl?

Have we learned nothing from our own experience in Vietnam? From the Soviet debacle in Afghanistan? It's virtually impossible to fight and win a war against an insurgency that disappears into the local civilian population ten seconds after they attack you.

Most of our troops will come home from Iraq at some point in time. But even in a best case scenario, there will be a division or two that stay for another generation (or two or three) as we recreate the Korean experience in a desert environmnet. We will eventually turn over the defense of Iraq to the Iraqis and hopefully the result will look more like South Korea than South Vietnam. But, we won't have completely defeated the insurgents before that happens. Even in a best case scenario, they are always going to be there, as they are in a lot of countries where civil war lies just beneath the surface.

[Ian Gentles]

I think we can get information without torture, and as Dave once ponted out, "what is torture?" what are we talking abot here?
Geneva convention never stopped torture from occuring. But again, if torturing a person was going to save a city, well......????

[Hans Deventer]

Well, at least we know what it is not :basic03

[Ian Gentles]

FOFLOL I love those cartoons Hans! :)

[William Hunter]

Wasnt sure what form to put this in, so opted for this one.

We are told as christians we must forgive, to leave judgment to God. But how does this work out with terrorists? I find the forgivness emotion hard to get a hold on in this subject? I remember after the Eniskillen bomb by IRA world went after one man who's daughter was killed, yet forgave. But world didnt follow up on another man, who when asked why he didnt do the same answered, "Who am I to forgive those who God hasnt forgiven?" Theologicaly he was correct, as forgivness is only obtained by those that seek it, all others are under condemnation! It would be different if a terrorist came to us and said, "I have done a terrible thing can you forgive me!"

I also wonder if folks seeking law dosent adiquetly punish a crime, find forgivness hard? Surely in normal murder we must have satisfation of seeing killer punished properly, if not by death, then at least life without release!
What people are seeing is, terrorists getting away with continual attrocities, and communities harboring them still living freely in our midst. Dont get me wrong, I am not on a hate muslims track, what I'm suggesting is, forgivness is hard when attitude of terrorists and many in their communities goes unrepenting!

So, how do we forgive terrorists? should we? is it possible?

Forgiveness does not require that we just let people go free with answering for their actions. There is a difference between forgiveness and one receiving judicial punishment for their actions. We are told in the Word to live by our civil authorities unless they require us to live in oppositon to the clear teachings of God in His Word. We are responsible and accountable for our actions, regardless of whether our victims forgive us.

[Ian Gentles]

Good point, we can exacute em and forgive them? OK just jesting, but agree civil law should deal with most crimes, but terrorism can be slightly different.