Can one who is saved loose their salvation?

[Ronald McClincey]

Good evening,

It has been awhile since I wrote and I am looking for some help. I ran into a couple of young babtists today at a nursing home and we got onto the can you or can you not loose your salvation if you are save. They are adament you can't. I am looking for some assistance on this issue from the weselynside that says yes and if you have scriprtual back up.Come on all you good theologicans I can use your help

Blessings,
ron

[Andrea Larabee]

Ron,

We've gone round and round with this subject. I added a link here... You'll see my post asking this same question. It's post #51. Hans answered it in #52 by sending me to a Wesley link. This question seems to get complicated, sticky, and very theological.

I myself have attended both Nazarene and Baptist churches. I don't believe one can lose their salvation easily. Certainly not by any single sin we've comitted. God is greater than all sin. BUT if we reject Him or refuse to ever believe Him in the first place, I believe we will be sent to Hell. When we become Christians, we're called to be devoted. For those who just simply believe Jesus exists but don't fully except Him as savior or claim to be Christian but their lives are not changed-were they really saved in the first place?? For those, I think they have the opportunity to truly get saved or surrender their lives to Christ once again.

http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=15&page=6&highlight=lose+salvation

[BobHunt]

"Certainly by not any single sin we've committed"

Maybe it would be good to define what sin is. Some people just excuse sin as a mistake. If that were so, we would all be in trouble, we all make mistakes, all of us have erasers on our pencil.
Some people say we have to sin every day, in word, thought or deed. If that were so, then I think that the Blood of Christ would be so weak and the Grace of God so powerless, that it could not keep us a Christian even one day.
1 John says "He who sins is of the devil." I dont think there is such a thing as a sinning Christian, for a Christian would not be "of the devil." 1 John goes on to say "Whosoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin because he has been born of God." Sin is incompatible with Christ's new nature given to the Christian. People are in delusion if they think they can still sin and get to Heaven. "The Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." which in my mind means destroy all sin. My professor said He does that by 3 ways: 1. by the virtue of His Blood, 2. By the Light of His Word, 3. By the power and efficency of His Spirit.
How can we tell if our hearts are clean? I remember an old pastor who was a real inspiration to me. He had a saying that went like this:
"If a guy wants to see if his face is clean, he looks in the towel.
If a girl wants to see if her face is clean, she looks in the mirror.
If a Christian wants to see if his/her heart is clean, he/she looks into the Word."

God is righteous, and by His grace His people may also be righteous, and it can last longer than 24 hours.

[Ronald McClincey]

Andrea,

These two young men amazed me . However I would like to just let them see that there are other roads to the King and we are still respopnsible for what we do. I looked back and could not find your response from Hans. If you can remember the site I would greatl;y appreciate it.

Blessings from a sinner
Ron

[Dale Cozby]

I want to share this sermon with you:

It is a Baptist minister of all things.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=52906154239

Long but worth listening to.

Can we lose our salvation: YES. we can. :eek: Scripture clearly teaches us we can. If you need references I will provide.

Sin as I have come to understand it has two meanings.

Missing the mark, and a willful transgression of a known law of God. Both result in seperation from God. However I believe after being "Born-again" we are held accountable for the latter and God's grace covers the former. (this is a bullet answer I know)

I can say more but I will let those who are much more long winded than myself wax eloquent.:basic03

[Andrea Larabee]

Andrea,

These two young men amazed me . However I would like to just let them see that there are other roads to the King and we are still respopnsible for what we do. I looked back and could not find your response from Hans. If you can remember the site I would greatl;y appreciate it.

Blessings from a sinner
Ron

Try this one. This is the link Hans gave me.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/085.htm

[Barb Bouldrey]

There is no use arguing this issue with people who believe in eternal security. You will not change their minds and they will not change yours.

Most Baptists also believe in getting right with God and staying right with God and living holy lives. That is what matters.

I have a long list of scriptures that combat eternal security that I can email you if you would like.

Read First John and see the easiest to use.

Barb

[Andrea Larabee]

Before this turns into another theological debate that ends with no answer. I am going to agree to disagree. I will listen to the sermon Dale provided. I am a teachable Christian and maybe I have not reached the point of fully understanding losing ones salvation. So please don't have a condemning spirit about it. I too, have done much studying and praying about and have lots of scriptures for it. I have done Precepts Upon Precepts classes about this very topic and feel the classes were trustworthy because we only line scripture up with scripture and use the same study techniques scholars use... though I am not claiming to be one!


I agree one can lose their salvation. But, 'Can one lose their salvation?' is a tricky question to me. To my understanding, Nazarenes believe that one can lose their salvation somewhere in a backslidden state. To me, if one is a genuine Christian and backslides, he has the Holy Spirit to convict him of it. If the backslidden Christian does not repent, and does not repent, and continuously follows in this pattern, I believe that God, at some point, would draw the line and say, "NO MORE" and cut that person off, forever! But at that point, the person has comitted the 'unpardonable sin'. Right? Because the only unforgiveable sin is the 'unpardonable sin'.

My mother was backslidden for 20 years. She admits it and knows, beyond a shadow of doubt, that she did not lose her salvation in that time. As for myself, I was genuinely saved, without a doubt, when I was 20 yrs. old. I very excitedly told my, then fiance, what had happened in my life. He was a very 'in your face athiest' and said, "Oh great, now you're some Holy Roller?!!" At that point I was so intimidated by him I said in my heart, "I can't live a Christian life and have him against me." So I chose to stay in a relationship with him and walked away from the Lord. I went on for the next 3 1/2 years living a very worldly life and on occasion would hear conviction and still hungered for the Lord. And the Lord did do loving things to try to draw me back to Him. I did not obey the convictions but in the end, I did leave my fiance and turn back to the Lord, but I don't believe I truly, truly fell from grace, meaning 'cut off forever'. If I had died in that time, I know I would've gone to Heaven. I believe there are people out there who say they are Christians but show zero evidence of it. Enough to make us wonder. God is the judge over all.

So my point is, that in a backslidden state, one would really, really, have to go far to be permanently cut off. God's love for us is sooo deep we cannot even fathom. I agree we should not abuse our salvation or think we are safe to sin because we are saved. Yes, Barabara, there are God fearing Christians who walk their talk and abide in Christ in the Baptist denomination. There are many weak Christians in the Nazarene church too! No one denomination is perfect! Here at Naznet, it seems as though it's a crime to be a Baptist. Baptist seem to be slammed more than any denomination here at N.N. Truth is, we are part of 'thee church' and the Christians in the Baptist church should not be judged on such a broad basis. I've been in a Naz. church that was literally a dangerous place. Believe me. I will comment no further on it out of respect.

At this link: http://www.oneplace.com/real_answer/7.aspx almost to the bottom you'll see, "If you've asked Jesus into your heart but sin right before you die, do you go to heaven? / Can I lose my salvation?" I agree with what most of the answers were.

[Hans Deventer]

I agree one can lose their salvation.

That is indeed the heart of the matter. The rationale for believing one cannot, comes from the famous 5 points of Calvinism that are logically intertwined. Not from Scripture.

But, 'Can one lose their salvation?' is a tricky question to me. To my understanding, Nazarenes believe that one can lose their salvation somewhere in a backslidden state. To me, if one is a genuine Christian and backslides, he has the Holy Spirit to convict him of it. If the backslidden Christian does not repent, and does not repent, and continuously follows in this pattern, I believe that God, at some point, would draw the line and say, "NO MORE" and cut that person off, forever! But at that point, the person has committed the 'unpardonable sin'. Right? Because the only unforgivable sin is the 'unpardonable sin'.

I think that approach is too much focussed on laws. Faith is essentially a relationship. And relationships can be established, maintained, broken, and restored, but need not. The parable of the prodigal son is a great example of a broken but restored relationship, and the image is great: a waiting Father, always longing for His son to return. It shows so clearly that the relationship is only broken from one side: our side. But had the son stayed with the pigs and not returned home, he would have died in the foreign land.

My mother was backslidden for 20 years. She admits it and knows, beyond a shadow of doubt, that she did not lose her salvation in that time.

I wonder how she could be so sure of that. Salvation is not a "thing" I can keep or lose like my car keys.

As for myself, I was genuinely saved, without a doubt, when I was 20 yrs. old. I very excitedly told my, then fiancé, what had happened in my life. He was a very 'in your face athiest' and said, "Oh great, now you're some Holy Roller?!!" At that point I was so intimidated by him I said in my heart, "I can't live a Christian life and have him against me." So I chose to stay in a relationship with him and walked away from the Lord. I went on for the next 3 1/2 years living a very worldly life and on occasion would hear conviction and still hungered for the Lord. And the Lord did do loving things to try to draw me back to Him. I did not obey the convictions but in the end, I did leave my fiancé and turn back to the Lord, but I don't believe I truly, truly fell from grace, meaning 'cut off forever'. If I had died in that time, I know I would've gone to Heaven. I believe there are people out there who say they are Christians but show zero evidence of it. Enough to make us wonder. God is the judge over all.

Indeed He is, and He is merciful. But Jesus is quite clear about those that wilfully disobey Him.

So my point is, that in a backslidden state, one would really, really, have to go far to be permanently cut off. God's love for us is sooo deep we cannot even fathom.

That I totally agree with!!!!

I agree we should not abuse our salvation or think we are safe to sin because we are saved. Yes, Barabara, there are God fearing Christians who walk their talk and abide in Christ in the Baptist denomination. There are many weak Christians in the Nazarene church too! No one denomination is perfect! Here at Naznet, it seems as though it's a crime to be a Baptist.

Well, it is not. I can't understand how a church can be founded on such a minor issue as a mode and age of baptism and I think they are totally mistaken at that point, but exactly because I (contrary to them) believe both points are not essentials at all, I know they are brothers and sisters in Christ.

Baptist seem to be slammed more than any denomination here at N.N.

Probably because they are the largest Calvinist denomination in the USA. And the "hair's breadth" we differ with them has been reason for much controversy. Perhaps the strongest reason is that Calvinism is so dominant in the US evangelical culture that it has permeated even our own denomination and we need to really guard against that. I actually think in general, this is the main reason. There is no problem with Baptists as such.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Andrea,

This is one of the reasons why I do not "argue" doctrine with those from other denominations and choose not to get into deep theological discussions with Nazarenes. It gets us nowhere. We all have our own understandings and experiences.

I apologize for using the Baptist denomination as my only example. I guess that most of my adult life all I really knew of Calvinism and eternal security was related to the Baptist denomination.

I was not putting down my Baptist friends or the denomination as a whole. I was just stating that it does not do any good to try to convince them or them to convince me to change my thinking.

For 5 years I attended Bible Study Fellowship...an inter-denominational women's Bible study. It was there that I learned of other denominations...like Lutheran and Presbyterian(and others) who also believe in eternal security. The BSF materials are written by Presbyterian women and it is very evident in their study materials that they teach you cannot lose your salvation.

That was an eye-opener education for me. It was also an education to me to see the love of Christ and the Word of God in those ladies of all denominations. I had a pre-conceived idea that people from a lot of our old mainline churches were just nominal Christians who went through formalities of worship. It was a blessing to experience fellowship with sisters in Christ from all denominations.

You admit in your testimony that you walked away from the Lord to the point you felt that if you had died you would not have gone to Heaven. That is what we believe about the backslider who does not reclaim their relationship with Christ. And that is losing your salvation.

When Nazarenes on a Nazarene-sponsored forum defend their Nazarene doctrine it is not putting down other denominations...just clarifying ours.

Barb

P.S. Oh, yes....if you notice, the first post that started this thread mentions that he was talking to two BAPTIST young men....thus, the reference to Baptist continued.

[Brad Mercer]

My short answer is that what God desires for us is not to keep us out of prison but to be in intimate, loving relationship with us. Salvation and damnation have to do with relational rather than legal status.

God can't drag us kicking and screaming into the heaven he is preparing for us.

Wesleyanism and Calvinism both still exist because the Bible is full of proof texts for both sides. I've never seen anyone switch sides on the basis of scripture verses quoted to them by someone from the other side. And Lord knows I and some of my Calvinist friends and relatives wasted enough years trying.

[Hans Deventer]

It all comes down to, do people have or don't they have any influence in their salvation?

If not, you will live your life without ever knowing if God elected you (because only at the end, you can know God made you persevere), or if so, you will live your life knowing you responded to God's grace and love and realising you need to maintain the relationship thus established (and that He will do everything he can to maintain it!), and that you can because God gives you grace. I feel a lot more secure in the latter.

And of course, there is no escape: if God elected some for salvation, He did not elect others and thus sent them to hell, without them being able to do anything about it. Wesley called that "The Horrible Decree". It turns God into the devil.

It is strange. The 5 points of Calvinism are totally and logically interdependent. Yet most of them have been discarded nowadays, save the perseverance of the saints. But you cannot maintain one without the others, the logic crumbles if you do.

[Vivian Cornwell]

The following is a story from "Our Daily Bread." I personally cannot believe someone could live their whole life and their own son would not know that they were a Christian or had ever become one, but that is what this story is about.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF THIS WAS YOUR MOTHER?

Quote from "Our Daily Bread." When Josh McDowell's mother died, he was not sure of her salvation. He became depressed. Was she a Christian or not? "Lord," he prayed, "somehow give me the answer so I can get back to normal. I've just got to know." It seemed like an impossible request.

Two days later, Josh drove out to the ocean and walked to the end of a pier to be alone. There sat an elderly woman in a lawnchair, fishing. "Where's your home originally?" she asked. "Michigan-Union City," Josh replied . "Nobody's heard of it. I tell people it's a suburb of--" "Battle Creek," interrupted the woman. "I had a cousin from there. Did you know the McDowell family?"

Stunned, Josh responded, "Yes, I'm Josh McDowell." "I can't believe it," said the woman. "I'm a cousin to your mother." "Do you remember anything at all about my mother's spiritual life?" asked Josh. "Why sure-your mom and I were just girls-teenagers-when a tent revival came to town. We both went forward to accept Christ." "Praise GOD!" shouted Josh, startling the surrounding fishermen.

God delights to give us what we ask when it is in His will. Never underestimate His desire to respond to our prayers. A surprise may be just around the corner -Dennis De Haan End of quote from "Our Daily Bread."

I would like to hear your thoughts about this story.

[Andrea Larabee]

Andrea,


You admit in your testimony that you walked away from the Lord to the point you felt that if you had died you would not have gone to Heaven. That is what we believe about the backslider who does not reclaim their relationship with Christ. And that is losing your salvation.

When Nazarenes on a Nazarene-sponsored forum defend their Nazarene doctrine it is not putting down other denominations...just clarifying ours.

Barb



Barb, thanks for explaining yourself. I am more at peace now. Just to clarify in the above you misunderstood what I said in my testimony... I said if I had died in that backslidden state I believe I WOULD HAVE gone to Heaven. In that time of my life when I became a Christian and my fiance spouted nasty things about it, I did not understand my relationship enough with the Lord to withstand the battle that was so immediately before me.

~Andrea

[Jerry Frank]

Baptists stem from the Calvinist tradition. So do Presbyterians. That is why the latter would also hold to the same doctrine of eternal salvation. Just try a GOOGLE for [ Calvin +Presbyterian ] and you will get hundreds of hits of Presbyterian churches that bear his name.

While there may be some individual Lutherans who hold to the doctrine, the church in general does not teach it. In fact, it was one of the points on which Luther strongly disagreed with Calvin. Lutheran doctrine on the issue would be very similar to Wesleyan.

As for the original question, I think that people on both sides of the issue (apparently including Josh McDowell) spend too much time being concerned about who is in and who is out. God is the judge. If we cannot rely on Him to fairly make the final decision - about the person on the street or our dearly loved mother, the baptized or the unbaptized, the committed church goer or the back-slidden brother - then why do we even want to follow Him?

Part of this question falls on the issue of assurance. Assurance of salvation is a personal gift. Assurance is not essential for salvation. Some who cry, "Lord, Lord" will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Some who didn't even realize they were feeding or healing or clothing or visiting, will enter. I know of people who I think had a strong faith in the saving power of Jesus Christ but they did not have assurance. I believe they are in heaven but I have to ultimately rely on God's judgment and trust Him alone. While I can have personal assurance about my salvation, I have to leave that of others in God's capable hands.

Did my son make a commitment to follow Jesus? Yes. Does he appear to be doing that today? No. Does this give me pain? Yes. If he were to die tomorrow, I would not know the status of his salvation and that would give me additional pain. BUT, I would trust that my God was smart enough and compassionate enough to make the right decision.

Jerry

[Barb Bouldrey]

OOPS...I misread that for sure. Sorry about that, Andrea.

Jerry, I know just how you feel about your son. I have the memory of my son accepting Christ at age 7 and his face glowing with the Presence of God. I remember his re-commitment to Christ and his call to preach when he was 20...and that was so very real.

But in these last 10 years of his marriage/divorce, very little church attendence, living with a gal and fathering a child out of wedlock as well as other things about his lifestyle in the Army has caused me much time in prayer for his spiritual life. I have not had the assurance from him or God that if he had died in Iraq he would have gone to heaven.

What is interesting is that a Lutheran pastor's wife in my Bible Study Fellowship discussion group talked often about her wayward son who had gotten saved when he was a child. But she had peace because he was saved. So that Lutheran believes in eternal security. I do not know if she has always been Lutheran.

And, at least 3 other Lutheran ladies in my groups over those years expressed the same belief. Maybe it has to do with this area of Missouri.

Barb

[Dale Cozby]

I hope yall do listen to the sermon posted above. I sent that link to all in my Sunday School class and it was well recieved by all.

I believe the use of the term "lose" is a misnomer. I would rather use the term "give up" We choose to "give up" or surrender our salvation when we willfully sin against God's laws. We choose to walk away like the prodigal son. The parable of the prodigal is a great example. Because the only son born of God is Jesus. The rest of us became so by adoption. Thus we are "born-again" and once born again, we can walk away or give up the relationship with God like the prodigal did.

I know we associate this passage with Jews and Gentiles but the principles are still the samer for all: "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Romans 11:22-24

I am confident that in a "debate" with eternal security proponents(notice I did not say Baptists:basic03 ) They can be overwhelmed with scripture. I have done it many times. They use a certain proofs and a logic arguement which has to draw conclusions(and wrongfully so) Whereas the scriptures require no conclusions to be drawn as they are quite clear on this subject.

In the end God makes known to all his children thier condition and the choice is ours to take hold of that which Christ Jesus has taken hold of us or to let go.

My fear is many have been led astray into having an arrogant and complacent overconfidence in eternal salvation that leads to this condition: "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." The "once a child of God always a child of God" is blown away with this if you ask me.

[Jerry Frank]

Perhaps some of the Lutheran confusion (sorry for straying a bit off thread on the original question) relates to their theology on baptism. They teach that an infant who is baptized inherits the Kingdom of Heaven. So, there is an element of assurance in such a doctrine. HOWEVER, they also expect that same child to undergo extensive teaching of the Word, supplemented by Luther's Small Cathecism, and then make public profession of their faith through the rite of Confirmation (typically around age 14 +/-). If you are not confirmed, either as a young adult or as an adult, you cannot be a member of the Lutheran Church. Deciding not to be confirmed might be construed as rejecting Christ. If at anytime in one's life, either before or after Confirmation, one should reject Christ, then their salvation is lost.

The question for Lutherans (in fact, all of us) is, "What constitutes rejection?" Is it denying the opportunity to publicly affirm your faith? Is it living a life not pleasing to God? Does it require clear verbal rejection of anything to do with God? The Word may give us some clues to an answer but ultimately is not adequate for letting us know what God would do. We simply MUST leave it in His hands. Anything more than that puts too much emphasis on works or, even worse, puts us in the position of trying to be god.

Jerry

[David Cash]

I've also been on both sides of this issue. Here are my conclusions.

First, the Baptists/Calvinists are right in emphasizing that salvation is by grace through faith. We're saved because Jesus died and rose for us and we accepted His work as a gift by faith. My salvation isn't based on my obedience, the thoroughness of my repentance, or anything other than Jesus. I like to think that we Arminians also emphasize this except when arguing with the Calvinists or trying to get people to come forward at revival meetings.

On the other hand, the Bible has too many warnings that one can be lost by leaving the faith for me to embrace absolute eternal security.

As I would state it now, I don't believe that anyone who is truly trusting Jesus for forgiveness and eternal life will go to Hell. I don't believe that the fact that someone once trusted in Jesus for salvation will help that person if he or she quits trusting. I also doubt if one can willfully and repeatedly indulge in sin and continue to believe. (I'm treating belief and trust as the same thing here.) It would be the unbelief rather than the sin that made someone a former Christian, but sin is the road to unbelief.

Ronald, I would advise you not to argue the point with the Baptists you were speaking with. If they are like the Baptists I used to be part of, it will only convince them that you are not saved. The logic is that anything less than eternal security is (in their eyes) a doctrine of salvation by works, and you can't be trusting your own works and be saved. The debate just isn't worth it, especially since it's as Barb pointed out--these guys are saved and wanting to live for the Lord too.

There's one other factor. Salvation is initial sanctification. When we get saved, God gives us eternal life. He gives it to us now, not just after we die. But what Calvinists lose sight of is that it is both eternal and life. To be alive spiritually includes living a righteous life. God's Spirit at work in our lives causes us to want to do right and makes us miserable when we do wrong. That is why the Christian life is not a sinful life. Not because we're trying to stay out of Hell, but because God has put Heaven in our hearts.

There is no bigger tragedy than drowning Heaven out of our hearts, and if we do it, we'll have no one to blame but ourselves.

David Cash

[Dave McClung]

Good evening,

It has been awhile since I wrote and I am looking for some help. I ran into a couple of young babtists today at a nursing home and we got onto the can you or can you not loose your salvation if you are save. They are adament you can't. I am looking for some assistance on this issue from the weselynside that says yes and if you have scriprtual back up.Come on all you good theologicans I can use your help

Blessings,
ron

When this topic came up in 1999, some articles were posted. Here are two of them. The first is by a Nazarene Theologian. The second is by a prominent Baptist Preacher. I found both to be useful.

P.S. One of files was too large. I will have to break it into smaller files. I will post it in another post.

[Dave McClung]

Here is the article by the Baptist Pastor:

[Bob Carabbio]

Since I was saved into a Texas Southern Baptist Environment, I was indoctrinated well with OSAS as a doctrine from Noah all the way to Revelation, which went so far as to say that IF - you began to sin after salvation, God would kill you prematurely to get you into heaven before you could fall out of grace. Now THAT'S extreme - not as extreme as 5-point Calvinism (there's no venism like CAL-vinism like no venism I know!), but extreme nonetheless.

BUT it's only theology. and theology gives NOBODY security - particularly not controversial theology.

And if you think a bit about it, it's clear that "Security" teaching essentilly is of no value to anybody who's not trying to avoid really pressing IN to God. IF you "Take HIS yoke upon you, and learn of Him" - and get to know the Word, and pray, and minister to others, SECURITY's gonna be the least important thing on your mind - since you'll have PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP and the "belonging' that ONLY comes from knowing WHO you are in God.

OSAS is all fine and good, but it's essentially for the backslider and not for the committed Christian.

One of the major blessings I had in the early '70s was attending a Baptist church in the morning, and a Nazarene church at night. BOTH churches entered into a teaching on the "security of the Believer" simultaneously. the utterly fascinating thing to me was that BOTH denominations used the SAME EXACT scriptures to prove diametrically opposed theologies.

There's always TWO sets of Scriptures about any denominational theology - the ones that say what you WANT them to say and that support your theological position - your "Proof texts". And there's the set that refutes your theological position, and which you must invent viable explanations for to make 'em go away. What happened in the two churches was that the "Proof texts" for one simply became the "Problem texts" for the other, and vice-versa. I learned a LOT about denominational theology in that few weeks.

And shortly after that experience I realized that we're NOT SUPPOSED to relate to God in a "Doctrinal" way, but in a PERSONAL relationship - daily.

Why would somebody who is supposed to: "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." -

Be trying to define the MINIMUM involvement with God that still lets you keep your fire insurance?

I NEVER REALLY knew security as a believer until I ditched ALL the contradictory theology about it and started to really learn about HIM, and what He wanted in our relationship. THAT's found in the Bible - the WHOLE Bible.

SO I absolutely believe that IF - I decide to turn my back on God and learn to despise his goodness, and cease to be thankful - I COULD remove myself from the "Ark of safety" - because FAITH is what saves saves and FAITH depends on relationship - not theology. As you fall away, the VITAL faith becomes a passive faith, and then degenerates to a fading memory (guess how I know that). I DON'T that God will just let you "fall off" without a final crisic challenge (he didn't let me, at least).

But the old holiness "one strike and you're OUT" theology was wrong to begin with and still is.

[Hans Deventer]

The following is a story from "Our Daily Bread." I personally cannot believe someone could live their whole life and their own son would not know that they were a Christian or had ever become one, but that is what this story is about.


I agree. The information would not have been very helpful to me, apart from the miraculous meeting. That in itself would have the most importance.

[Barbara Moulton]

Good evening,

It has been awhile since I wrote and I am looking for some help. I ran into a couple of young babtists today at a nursing home and we got onto the can you or can you not loose your salvation if you are save. They are adament you can't. I am looking for some assistance on this issue from the weselynside that says yes and if you have scriprtual back up.Come on all you good theologicans I can use your help

Blessings,
ron


I don't believe that we can "lose" our salvation the way we might lose our wallets.

"Hmmmmm....where did I put my salvation?"

I do believe that we can turn our backs on the grace of God.

[Scott Hilton]

One thing in the discussions about this doctrine that always seems to come up is the question "well how many sins does it take to lose your salvation then"? Then both sides jump into a big debate (been there) about sinning. After maturing in my faith some since doing that, I have learned to actually steer the conversation away from sins and to faith. Our salvation is based on Faith, not sin. Faith is what we are justified by, not how good we are. Faith is the deeper issue, sin/works/deeds are all basically out growths of our faith.

I was saved through a southern baptist church and I can tell you that I did hear a sermon on eternal security and it is one of the reasons I left the church. I know some preachers will talk about how it doesn't give you the right to go out and sin, but that you are eternally secure. That was not the message I heard, it was actually stated that you can sin as many times as you want, that you don't have to repent and you are just fine. He completely missed the point of faith as the issue. Anyway, I found all you Nazarene people by leaving that church and I have been blessed since!

One more thing, when discussing these matters of doctrine, like I read someone else state, most of the time you will not change either one of your minds on the topic. So when you are talking about it, consider that it is probably someone reading or listening to you and your position and not directly in the conversation that will be the one searching with an open heart to the truth of the Word.

God bless
Scott

[Larry Wilson]

I don't believe one can lose their salvation easily.

Lose? No, not lose. I would rather say "reject."

Someone has quipped, "Nazarenes believe in backsliding . . . and practice it! As one who "cut his teeth on the altar rail," I believe that we have often taught that our salvation was a fragile thing that the slightest misstep might destroy. Fear and despair accompany this view. The opposite extreme, believing that nothing we do can might impinge on our salvation, leads to a brazen callousness.

Hans is right; it is all about relationship, and that relationship is not easily broken! And, absolutely nothing can separate us from the love that is in Christ Jesus. I do believe that once one has accepted God's salvation through Christ, one's life is never the same, and the presence of God is with that person in a different way.

Nonetheless, I believe that it is still possible for one utterly to reject the salvation once received. Not easy; one really has to try. But, apostasy is a real possibility.

Whether one in a "backslidden state" is still "saved," is an interesting question. Maybe it depends partly on what you mean by that. If I deliberately break relationship with God, am I "saved?" I sure don't want to take the chance, and I think it is a dangerous teaching! I believe that the backslider is never very far from God's love, and that God's mercy and grace are strong and deep.

Baptists -- interesting people. In my last pastorate, it was a Baptist church that was most like a sister church to us! They were exceptional, though.

I once heard two Calvinist's talking to each other about Arminians. (This is true!) One finally repined, "I suppose there might be some Arminians in heaven, but it would sure be hard for them to get there!"

[Dane Gjesdal]

But the old holiness "one strike and you're OUT" theology was wrong to begin with and still is.

I could not agree with you more!

I like what Wesley taught …"Assurance of salvation"

I know this is not going to be PC of me as Wesleyan – but I really do not have much of a problem with some who believes in only 1 point of Calvinist (Perseverance of the saints or OSAS) if that is the only point they buy into. I believe they have no foundation to believe it, but I just do not have a problem with it. They will just say that if someone is living in sin they were never saved in the first place. So, they are in the same boat/state as we Wesleyans would put them in. I do not argue or even deal with it unless they believe they can practice habitual un-repented sin and believe they will inherit the Kingdom of God. Then, Houston, we have a problem. (Heb 10:26-31)

[Terri Knoll]

There's one other factor. Salvation is initial sanctification. When we get saved, God gives us eternal life. He gives it to us now, not just after we die. But what Calvinists lose sight of is that it is both eternal and life. To be alive spiritually includes living a righteous life. God's Spirit at work in our lives causes us to want to do right and makes us miserable when we do wrong. That is why the Christian life is not a sinful life. Not because we're trying to stay out of Hell, but because God has put Heaven in our hearts.

There is no bigger tragedy than drowning Heaven out of our hearts, and if we do it, we'll have no one to blame but ourselves.

David Cash

Hallelujah! well said. I know this thread is about differences in christian theology, and I don't point out your quote to get into a debate about tulips or calvins etc, but to point out that our eternal life begins right when we accept Jesus! The kingdom and the power and the glory He promises is to be lived NOW! We pray, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven, but we don't live it! Sure spending eternity praising God is wonderful! but we have His promises right now! He is such a glorious, gracious, giving God! When I talk to people about Jesus, that is the way the conversation goes. Our lives can be glorious NOW! powerful NOW! and that power bubbles over and others feel, see, taste it and want it! Thanx for bringing that to the table, the kingdom is here!

[Dane Gjesdal]

Here is the article by the Baptist Pastor:


Dave this looks like a good article (PDF), but I cannot read it all because the words are faint. Is there someone who can clean this up and put it into a text form (TTF/text/doc) and place it back on this thread? It looks so good I think it is worth saving. Just an idea.