Celebrating Jesus the Philosopher

[Bruce Carriker]

I sometimes listen to local talk radio, when I need a good laugh. I missed Rush today, but caught Bill O'Reilly's show. He was contending that Nativity scenes should be allowed on public display. That might sound okay, but here was his reasoning:

1. Christmas is not a religious holiday, but a federal holiday.

2. It is the celebration of the birth of Jesus, THE PHILOSOPHER, on whose philosophy this country was founded.

(This is both bad theology AND bad history, BTW.)

This is the kind of logic many evangelicals are willing to compromise with, so long as it advances their agenda to take over the political process in this country. Never mind that its simply blasphemous.

[BobHunt]

I sometimes listen to local talk radio, when I need a good laugh. I missed Rush today, but caught Bill O'Reilly's show. He was contending that Nativity scenes should be allowed on public display. That might sound okay, but here was his reasoning:

1. Christmas is not a religious holiday, but a federal holiday.

2. It is the celebration of the birth of Jesus, THE PHILOSOPHER, on whose philosophy this country was founded.

(This is both bad theology AND bad history, BTW.)

This is the kind of logic many evangelicals are willing to compromise with, so long as it advances their agenda to take over the political process in this country. Never mind that its simply blasphemous.

Maybe we should have a federal holiday called Bruce Carriker Day, but only if its a day off for me with pay.

[Stan Hall]

I agree, Bruce. Christmas is a religious and a federal holiday. Our forebears were primarily Christians so they declared this a federal holiday.

[Bruce Carriker]

Maybe we should have a federal holiday called Bruce Carriker Day, but only if its a day off for me with pay.

Not sure what that means, Bob. Am I to assume that you're okay with Jesus the Philosopher? Maybe we should do some editing for the O'Reilly Study Bible:

"For unto you is born this day a Philospher..."

That's not how any of my Bibles read, but I suppose if it increases public acceptance of Christianity, then that would be a good thing, huh?

[Bruce Carriker]

I agree, Bruce. Christmas is a religious and a federal holiday. Our forebears were primarily Christians so they declared this a federal holiday.

About half of our forbears did not recognize Christmas. In fact, it was outlawed in some New England states, and not widely celebrated in the Northeast until after the Civil War. The driving forces in Christmas' eventual acceptance were certainly as much secular - Dickens' A Christmas Carol, the writings of Washington Irving, the popularization of Santa Claus...as they were religious.

As a Christian, Christmas has had a significant theological meaning since I was old enough to understand the simplest things about the Incarnation. But since it was recognized as an official holiday in the US in 1870, Christmas has always been at least as much about a secular celebration of Santa Claus, gift giving, peace and goodwill and familiy gathering; as it has been about the Nativity.

In Ganulin v US, the Supreme Court held that declaring Christmas a national holiday did not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment because "Christmas serves a valid secular purpose." I'm okay with that. My issue is not with O'Reilly's characterization of Christmas as a secular holiday. Certainly it is...far more than it is a religious one any longer, even in many Christian homes. My issue is with his relegation of Jesus to the status of philosopher, and the very poor HISTORY that is associated with his comments, as well.

If we are going to recognize any birthdays on the basis of a "founding philosophy", certainly you can make as strong an argument for Rousseau's birthday, or Locke's birthday.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

If we are going to recognize any birthdays on the basis of a "founding philosophy", certainly you can make as strong an argument for Rousseau's birthday, or Locke's birthday.

I don't know, Bruce...

You remember when Time had that big campaign for "Person of the Century" and Christians everywhere were e-mailing each other to vote for Jesus Christ? That led me to think about how I'm not sure there has been any one individual who has impacted history, culture, and society more than Christ. So while I wholeheartedly disagree with Mr. O'Reilly, I understand what he's saying. Has anyone else's philosophy had greater sustained impact throughout history, including USAmerican history?

Of course, I'm one who doesn't want much dictation from the government on what is or isn't a holiday for me anyway. As a follower of Christ, I'd much rather determine my own "holidays" and holy-days. Of course, I suppose that's easy for me to say, working a "job" that allows me to choose my own days off. So maybe this argument isn't a very good one...

In other very exciting developing news, I noticed that Mike Schutz thanked you for your first post. Since the welcome forum is no longer, I want to welcome Mike and encourage his posting around here. I can only think of a handful of people that I would guess are more widely read than Mike. He is without doubt one of my greatest mentors and heroes and his insight around here would be refreshing and inspiring. :basic05

I will never forget your last sermon at ENC. Something along the lines of "...sometimes God loves some people more than he loves other people." You always had a way of saying something that blew our minds, but after explaining it, made a lot of sense. That sermon has partly formed my worldview. (By the way, I don't expect anyone else here to agree with that statement above without hearing the sermon.)

[Bruce Carriker]

[FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="3"]
I don't know, Bruce...

Has anyone else's philosophy had greater sustained impact throughout history, including USAmerican history?


Jeremy,

We may have to disagree...or we may say that its a semantics issue... I wouldn't disagree with you that, over the course of our history as a nation (or in the history of the world), the teachings of Jesus Christ (regardless of whether people recognize him as divine) have had as much or more impact than the teachings of any other person. But, I think there is a significant difference between a "founding philosophy" and a philosophy that has had "...sustained impact throughout history...", as you put it.

Certainly one could argue that, based on Paul's teachings in Romans (particularly chapter 13), that there was absolutely nothing Christian about the American Revolution; that in fact, it flew directly in the face of the Bible's teachings. John Wesley believed that.

Jean Jacques Rousseau's The Social Contract and John Locke's Two Treatises on Government, particulary the second treatise, shaped much, if not most of Jefferson's thinking as he crafted the Declaration of Independence; although he also regarded Jesus as a great philosopher, and believed his teachings were an important basis for moral behavior.

But, if the founders had really been following the philosophy of Jesus, there would never have been an armed revolt in the first place. It was Locke and Rousseau who held that the people had the right to overthrow the government, by force if necessary. So, if there is a "founding philosophy", it is theirs and not what we find taught by Jesus in the Bible.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Jeremy,

We may have to disagree...or we may say that its a semantics issue... I wouldn't disagree with you that, over the course of our history as a nation (or in the history of the world), the teachings of Jesus Christ (regardless of whether people recognize him as divine) have had as much or more impact than the teachings of any other person. But, I think there is a significant difference between a "founding philosophy" and a philosophy that has had "...sustained impact throughout history...", as you put it.

Certainly one could argue that, based on Paul's teachings in Romans (particularly chapter 13), that there was absolutely nothing Christian about the American Revolution; that in fact, it flew directly in the face of the Bible's teachings. John Wesley believed that.

Jean Jacques Rousseau's The Social Contract and John Locke's Two Treatises on Government, particulary the second treatise, shaped much, if not most of Jefferson's thinking as he crafted the Declaration of Independence; although he also regarded Jesus as a great philosopher, and believed his teachings were an important basis for moral behavior.

But, if the founders had really been following the philosophy of Jesus, there would never have been an armed revolt in the first place. It was Locke and Rousseau who held that the people had the right to overthrow the government, by force if necessary. So, if there is a "founding philosophy", it is theirs and not what we find taught by Jesus in the Bible.

I understand what you're saying...

...and I think I'm out of my league here.

Philosophy was not my best subject.

[Bruce Carriker]

You're not out of your league at all. You can hold your own with anybody here.