Truth about 666, the beast and the seal of beast

[Nick Kurshev]

Peace to you!

I've published the article:

666 (http://my666.boom.ru/666_en.html)

This material makes understanding of Revelation more clear and will help to be saved for many many people and will help to avoid terrible plagues for many other people! You will not carry any responsibility for this link since this material was signed by me! But availability of this material is important for now as never before!
Be bless!

Announce:

At the age of thirteen I was thrown into another world by a fateful accident. Clinically pronounced dead, I returned from the afterlife with knowledge rarely glimpsed by the average person. This experience has defined my life as a person with each foot in a different world. Explaining the afterlife to those who have not had a near death experience requires breaking down the illusions that most people hold of what they call "reality". I hope that my experiences can enlighten others while allowing me to share my insights with my fellow humans.

I have received the seal of the beast in afterlife world 20-22 years ago. Main information - the first who meets us in afterlife world is the BEAST which is described in Bible, but not God as many think!

BEAST. This creature has size about 12 meters in height. This creature is able to stay on two legs and has very long tail (so it also 30 meters long including the tail).
IMAGE OF BEAST is any creature who has seal of beast with spirit of beast inside and without man's status!
MARK OF BEAST. After sealing up appears imprint! This imprint has name - mark. It looks like black tattoo which is putted on spirit (not on body) therefore can not be cutted out. It contains the head of dog with iron slam on head.
SEAL OF BEAST. The beast has the seal. It is like iron seal on a long pole. Any host is able to mark by seal of beast.
666 is number of men who will be marked by beast but will be saved!!! (i.e. common number of saved from all who will be marked by beast).
FOREHEAD whole forehead bone from brows up to top of head! The seal of beast is fatal when it putted on forehead or on any hand.
NAME OF THE BEAST. The beast has name, same as any creature who was created by Creator.
NUMBER OF NAME OF THE BEAST is number of people who will call themselves by name of the beast. I.e. 666 is number of people who will be saved from the lake of fire with seal of beast on any place. But the number of name of the beast is number of people who will call themselves same as the beast.
HOST is creature (man or angel) who received the seal of beast!!! Host can to mark up anybody by the seal of beast!
ROD OF IRON is spirit of beast which is inserted into us horizontally.


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[Dave McClung]

Hello, Nick

Peace be to you too.

Dave McClung
mcclung@naznet.com

[David Cash]

Nick,

I looked at your 666 link. I'm trying to understand if I understood your correctly. Are you saying that we are saved by faith but not by Jesus?

David Cash

[Laurie Florence]

Hi, Nick,
Welcome and peace to you, too!
My pastor says that 666 stands for humanity. It's when we put ourselves in the centre of our heart. Then we make decisions and see life through this human viewpoint. Jesus needs to be at the centre of our heart. Then we can see things from His viewpoint, and make decisions that are godly. That's the seal of the Lamb, it's a mindset - a heartset. I ask Jesus every day to seal my heart to Him, and keep me on His path. It seems to work for me.
Blessings,

[John Kennedy]

I have run an income tax preparation business for 35+ years. I once had a client who, according to my initial estimate, would receive a tax refund of $666. When I informed her of this, she insisted I take a smaller amount in deductions so that her refund would be less. I often wondered what she would do if she needed to drive from Gallup, NM to Shiprock, NM.

[Nick Kurshev]

Nick,

I looked at your 666 link. I'm trying to understand if I understood your correctly. Are you saying that we are saved by faith but not by Jesus?

David Cash
Yes, my savior is faith! That's enough popular case today. Even Jesus personally spoke such prophecies!


My pastor says that 666 stands for humanity. It's when we put ourselves in the centre of our heart. Then we make decisions and see life through this human viewpoint. Jesus needs to be at the centre of our heart. Then we can see things from His viewpoint, and make decisions that are godly. That's the seal of the Lamb, it's a mindset - a heartset. I ask Jesus every day to seal my heart to Him, and keep me on His path. It seems to work for me.

Did you notify your pastor about BIBLE'S INACCURACIES section of my article? If somebody will make reverse translation of Russian bible then he will get:
Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the human's number; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six

I dunno which form (singular or plural) was used in original books!

Be bless!

[Wilson L. Deaton]

.... I often wondered what she would do if she needed to drive from Gallup, NM to Shiprock, NM.

I have that figured out!

Wilson

[Kevin Bowser]

The next thing to figure out is "Why" someone would want to go from Gallup to Shiprock! :basic05

[Kevin Bowser]

Nick,

I am glad that you survived such a traumatic experience so many years ago. But I cannot come to the same conclusions that you have. I am not looking for a debate here. But "Faith" alone is not sufficient. The object of the faith is key. I can have all the faith in the world that I won't die, but alas, some day I will. I can have faith that I will become wealthy. But, that may not happen either. I can have faith in false prophets and false teachers and that won't help me either.

More important to me is that I fix my eyes on Jesus and put my faith and trust in Him. I must be forgiven of my sins and Obey his Heavenly Father as He Himself does. I need to allow the Holy Spirit to fill me and work in my life to make me more and more like Christ as I daily submit my will to His.

And if I do all that, then I don't have to worry too much about numbers, names and beasts.

Peace to you as well.

[Jerry Frank]

Don't forget that if you use one of our Canadian cars, you will show km not miles so everything will be OK.

Jerry

[Kevin Bowser]

Yes, but I'll have to fill it with litres and not gallons and I'll get all confused! :basic02

[John Kennedy]

I have that figured out!

Wilson

It's reassuring to see that NazNetters are willing to do research into these vital issues of the day.

[John Kennedy]

The next thing to figure out is "Why" someone would want to go from Gallup to Shiprock! :basic05


Kevin -

Have not only gone from Gallup to Shiprock, but also, from Shiprock to Gallup. Still not exactly clear as to why. Now that I think of it, that was right at 50 years ago. With that kind of time lapse, just remembering the event is enough = who has time for rationales?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I have that figured out!

Wilson

Many years ago we drove AZ 666 from Safford to Wilcox to attend church each Sunday -- a 50 mile drive each way. Only when I saw the discussion on Hwy 666 did I realize that the highway number has been changed to 191.

Somehow there has to have been some theological significance to our traveling 666 to go to church.

By the way, the route took us east and then south of Mt. Graham -- one of the most beautiful mountains I have ever seen.

[John Kennedy]

Scott -

The Arizona segment may have been changed to US 191. The New Mexico (Gallup to Shiprock) segment was, and, and presumably still is, US 666, according to my 2001 AAA Road Atlas.

By the way, what on earth were you doing in that area of the country?

[Gina Stevenson]

Many years ago we drove AZ 666 from Safford to Wilcox to attend church each Sunday -- a 50 mile drive each way. Only when I saw the discussion on Hwy 666 did I realize that the highway number has been changed to 191.

Somehow there has to have been some theological significance to our traveling 666 to go to church.

By the way, the route took us east and then south of Mt. Graham -- one of the most beautiful mountains I have ever seen.

The source of "graham" crackers, of course, eh, Scott? ;) But, more seriously, one thing I miss here---other than hating being subjected to this torturous weather for how long now before it breaks into spring?---is the mountains out west. Really do miss "my mountains." Everywhere I lived out west, I could see them...if not from my windows, by going outside and walking a few yards, a block, whatever. :(

stuck in Michigan; bad place for a member of the IHS club!! :eek:
(which reminds me ... where's our president--Pete--been lately?)

[David Cash]

[QUOTE=Nick Kurshev;63456]Yes, my savior is faith! That's enough popular case today. Even Jesus personally spoke such prophecies!

Nick,

Thanks for answering my question.

There is a problem with faith as a savior. Your faith, in itself, is no bigger than you are. My faith, in itself, is no bigger than I am. Faith cannot take away sin. Faith cannot give a person eternal life. Otherwise, we could make God listen to us just by believing in ourselves, but believing in ourselves is part of what leads us to sin in the first place. Until we are saved we are lost, already dead as far as God is concerned, and on our way to the lake of fire. The only way we can be saved is for somebody else to save us. The only One who saves is Jesus Christ. He has to do it for us because we can't do it for ourselves, not even by our faith. Jesus Christ did speak prophecies, but he said that He would save us. Faith without Jesus is worthless.

A great prophet said that Jesus Christ is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29) Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish". (You can read the accurate historical account of His words in John 10:27-28.) Eternal life is not given by faith. It is given by Jesus Christ. Faith is only the means by which we relate to Jesus Christ. Jesus also said this of Himself: "the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins" (Matthew 9:6). The apostle Peter prophesied this about Jesus: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). The name of the Savior is not "faith." The name of the Savior is Jesus! Faith is how we relate to the Savior, but in itself it is powerless. The only way we can be saved is if Jesus Christ saves us Himself. Otherwise we will go to the lake of fire that God prepares for the devil and his angels.

Nick, I don't want to sound harsh, but it seems that spirits have spoken to you in a vision. Yet, God tells us not to believe spirits. We have to test them, and the test of those spirits is whether they tell the truth about Jesus Christ. Any spirit that tells you that Jesus Christ is not the only way to be saved is from the devil. If you listen to such spirits, God will punish you by burning your soul in the lake of fire. Jesus Christ invites you to reject all lying spirits and let Him save you from God's judgment.

There is another way that the evil spirits lied to you in this vision. They said that God hates people, but not greatly. That is a lie. God loves people. When He says He loves the world, He is talking about the people of the world. But if you will not believe this, then you need to believe the words of God in Romans 5:8: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Us is human beings. God loves us. Anybody that has told you otherwise is a liar whom God will judge. Don't trust the vision you saw after your accident. It is an evil vision. It isn't from God.

David Cash

[Barbara Moulton]

Yes, but I'll have to fill it with litres and not gallons and I'll get all confused! :basic02

I can never figure out how much gas is when I'm in the states. Between the exchange rate and the gallons I don't have a clue how much it costs :-)

By the way, I think this is the best example of a "hi-jacked" thread I have ever seen. LOL!

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

According to Wikapedia AZ wanted to change the highway because people kept stealing the 666 highway signs!

And, I'm a lot like Johnny Cash, "I've been everywhere!" We lived in Arizona many years ago: Phoenix, Safford, and Willcox before coming to Texas. We loved Arizona, but Texas is home now and we wouldn't trade it for anywhere else.

Scott -

The Arizona segment may have been changed to US 191. The New Mexico (Gallup to Shiprock) segment was, and, and presumably still is, US 666, according to my 2001 AAA Road Atlas.

By the way, what on earth were you doing in that area of the country?

[Cindi Hammons]

We loved Arizona, but Texas is home now and we wouldn't trade it for anywhere else.

Not even a small town in Southern Ohio? :rolleyes:

Just kidding.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Not even a small town in Southern Ohio? :rolleyes:

Just kidding.

I had a chance to pastor a church in SWO once, but it didn't seem like what I should do, so I stayed put. It was a small town and the people seemed real nice. Who knows what would have happened had I gone there. I was raised about 100 miles west of Cincinnati, so it wouldn't have been like moving to an unknown area for me.

[Kevin Bowser]

By the way, I think this is the best example of a "hi-jacked" thread I have ever seen. LOL!
If ever one needed to be hi-jacked, this might be it! :basic03

[Hans Deventer]

I can never figure out how much gas is when I'm in the states. Between the exchange rate and the gallons I don't have a clue how much it costs :-)

I did figure it out. And the bottom line was that driving a 8 cylinder Ford motor home in the USA was about as expensive as driving my (at that time) 4 cylinder Volkswagen in the Netherlands. The Ford completely absorbed the lower fuel price.

[Nick Kurshev]

Nick,

I am glad that you survived such a traumatic experience so many years ago. But I cannot come to the same conclusions that you have. I am not looking for a debate here. But "Faith" alone is not sufficient. The object of the faith is key. I can have all the faith in the world that I won't die, but alas, some day I will. I can have faith that I will become wealthy. But, that may not happen either. I can have faith in false prophets and false teachers and that won't help me either.

My article contains prophecies of God-Father and lives in Internet lobger than half year! That's far enough evidence that my article contains real prophecies of God-Father!

There is a problem with faith as a savior. Your faith, in itself, is no bigger than you are. My faith, in itself, is no bigger than I am. Faith cannot take away sin.

I never proclaimed that I'm sinless! I'm sinner and populating of my article is fruit of my repenting! Sinners may avoid punishment for sins too!

Faith cannot give a person eternal life. Otherwise, we could make God listen to us just by believing in ourselves, but believing in ourselves is part of what leads us to sin in the first place.

God-Father told me that my faith has saved me from lake of fire! Thus I'm eternity living!

A great prophet said that Jesus Christ is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29) Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish". (You can read the accurate historical account of His words in John 10:27-28.) Eternal life is not given by faith. It is given by Jesus Christ. Faith is only the means by which we relate to Jesus Christ. Jesus also said this of Himself: "the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins" (Matthew 9:6). The apostle Peter prophesied this about Jesus: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). The name of the Savior is not "faith." The name of the Savior is Jesus! Faith is how we relate to the Savior, but in itself it is powerless. The only way we can be saved is if Jesus Christ saves us Himself. Otherwise we will go to the lake of fire that God prepares for the devil and his angels.

Jesus teached:

Matthew 20:28:
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jesus crusified not for all but for many! I'm not in list of those who were saved through Jesus! My savior is faith!

Nick, I don't want to sound harsh, but it seems that spirits have spoken to you in a vision. Yet, God tells us not to believe spirits. We have to test them, and the test of those spirits is whether they tell the truth about Jesus Christ. Any spirit that tells you that Jesus Christ is not the only way to be saved is from the devil. If you listen to such spirits, God will punish you by burning your soul in the lake of fire. Jesus Christ invites you to reject all lying spirits and let Him save you from God's judgment.

I had communicating with God-Father! God-Father always declares Himself as God-Father!

Be bless!

[Dale Cozby]

Jesus crusified not for all but for many! I'm not in list of those who were saved through Jesus! My savior is faith!

In the tradition of the Sing to the Lord Scripture readings:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? ….faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. ….You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. …faith without deeds is useless…a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Hebrews 11:1;1 Corinthians 1:10b;1 Peter 1:8-9;Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 15:11a;James 2:14,17b,19,20b,24

[Kevin Bowser]

Amen. And thanks for adding the references.

[John Kennedy]

Amen. And thanks for adding the references.


Kevin -

Kept trying to quote the bottom line about there being 10 types of people - those who understand binary and those who don't.
Had to read it about 4 or 5 times till the light went on.

Reminded me of my first year of teaching 6th Grade. This was in the 60's and the 'new math' was just coming into vogue. The math text we were using had an inordinate fixation with non-decimal bases. The only reason I could fathom for spending much time on it was that you might, ultimately understand our base 10 system.

Anyway, I had a student who was really having difficulty with the concept. Her mother attempted to help, but it just got worse. She then enlisted the aid of an uncle, but he was equally at sea, so he decided to come see me after school and get the whole thing straight in his mind. However, he decided, on the way to stop in for a little liquid refreshment. By the time he arrived, he would've had difficulty hittin' the ground with his hat. But he remained ever confident he could master it. I was showing him that in base 7 you would count 1-2-3-4-5-6-10 (with a subscript 7) One through six went OK. 10 as 7 was a different matter. "Wadda you mean 10 is seveb - 10 is ten!

I'm here to tell you, you haven't lived 'til you've tried explaining non-decimal bases to a drunk.

[Steve Reece]

Kevin -

Kept trying to quote the bottom line about there being 10 types of people - those who understand binary and those who don't.
Had to read it about 4 or 5 times till the light went on.

Not to be picky, but shouldn't you have written, "Had to read it about 100 or 101 times till the light went on."


I'm here to tell you, you haven't lived 'til you've tried explaining non-decimal bases to a drunk.

Those are words to live by.

[Nick Kurshev]

No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,

I never argued that there are people who were saved through Jesus! But not every believer is saved through Jesus! Many believers are saved through their faith!

[Brad Mercer]

But not every believer is saved through Jesus! Many believers are saved through their faith!

Okay, this is probably really silly of me, but I just have to ask a couple of questions.

If I understand you, you're suggesting that while some people are saved through Christ because of their faith in him, others are saved through their faith, but not their faith in him.

My quick dictionary check offers these definitions of the word "faith":

noun: loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person (Example: "Keep the faith")
noun: complete confidence in a person or plan etc (Example: "He cherished the faith of a good woman")
noun: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny (Example: "He lost his faith but not his morality")

It appears that faith must have an object. This faith of which you speak, which does not have Jesus as its object: what is its object? What is the object? What is the cause or who is the person in which or in whom these saved ones have faith? What is the person or plan in whom they have confidence? What is the supernatural power or powers in whom they have strong belief?

And when you call these people believers who are not saved by Jesus, what or whom are you suggesting they believe? What or whom are these "believers" believers in?

Curious in spite of myself,
Brad

[Brad Mercer]

(I'm sorry; I held off on this as long as I could. I do believe that the book of Revelation is inspired scripture and that all of its imagery means something of significance to us today, but this just seemed like too good an opportunity to pass up.)

666 Number of the beast
668 Neighbor of the beast
660 Approximate number of the beast
DCLXVI Roman numeral of the beast
666.0000 Number of the high-precision beast
0.666 Number of the millibeast
1/666 Common denominator of the beast
666[-/(-1)] Imaginary number of the beast
1010011010 Binary number of the beast
29A Hexidecimal number of the beast
-666 Negative number of the beast
00666 Zip code of the beast
$665.95 Retail price of the beast
$699.25 Price of the beast plus 5% state sales tax
$769.95 Price of the beast with all accessories and replacements
$656.66 Wal-Mart price of the beast
$646.66 Next week's Wal-Mart price of the beast
$333.00 After-Christmas sale price of the beast
$222.00 Going-out of business liquidation price of the beast
Phillips 666 Gasoline of the beast
Route 666 Way of the beast
665 Older brother of the beast
667 Younger brother of the beast
666 UP Soft drink of the beast
666lb cap Weight limit of the beast
666 F Oven temperature for cooking roast "beast"
666k Retirement plan of the beast
666 mg Recommended minimum daily requirement of the beast
6.66% 5-year CD rate at First Beast of Hell, $666 minimum deposit
20/666 Vision of the beast
1-800-666-6666 Toll-free number of the beast
999 Australian number of the beast
6"X 6"X 6" Lumber of the beast
66.6 GHZ Computer processor of the beast
666i BMW of the beast
666-66-6666 Social security number of the beast
6/6/66 Birth date of the beast
666.AC.com URL of the beast
IAM 666 License plate number of the beast
Formula 666 All-purpose cleaner of the beast
666 calories Diet of the beast
969 Dyslexic number of the beast
WD-666 Spray lubricant of the beast
66.6 MHz FM radio station of the beast
666 KHz AM radio station of the beast
Chanel No. 666 The beast's favorite perfume
666% What the beast gives in his game

[Kevin Bowser]

"Fools rush in where angels fear to trod"

I was wondering when someone would find that piece on the internet or in their in-box and post it.

[Billie Goodson]

Okay, this is probably really silly of me, but I just have to ask a couple of questions.

If I understand you, you're suggesting that while some people are saved through Christ because of their faith in him, others are saved through their faith, but not their faith in him.

My quick dictionary check offers these definitions of the word "faith":

noun: loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person (Example: "Keep the faith")
noun: complete confidence in a person or plan etc (Example: "He cherished the faith of a good woman")
noun: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny (Example: "He lost his faith but not his morality")

It appears that faith must have an object. This faith of which you speak, which does not have Jesus as its object: what is its object? What is the object? What is the cause or who is the person in which or in whom these saved ones have faith? What is the person or plan in whom they have confidence? What is the supernatural power or powers in whom they have strong belief?

And when you call these people believers who are not saved by Jesus, what or whom are you suggesting they believe? What or whom are these "believers" believers in?

Curious in spite of myself,
Brad

Not silly in the least Brad.... This is the same argument/discussion that I get in with people that say logic will assure you there is not God. Logic/faith have no non-dependent meanings. One must apply logic or faith to something. The discussion that faith can save is like saying a dollar can buy something. A dollar does not represent anything, other than faith that it is acceptable to the receiver.

Sorry Nick, your statement that "faith saves the person" is incomplete. Your analogy of the great commission also fails, we are not commanded to leave the church, we in fact are the church. To leave the church would be to imply seperating from ourselves. You present some good information, but, I think the connective logic is flawed.

[Nick Kurshev]

Sorry Nick, your statement that "faith saves the person" is incomplete. Your analogy of the great commission also fails, we are not commanded to leave the church, we in fact are the church. To leave the church would be to imply seperating from ourselves. You present some good information, but, I think the connective logic is flawed.

Even Jesus often said such prophecy:

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luke 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

[Brad Mercer]

Nick, in every single one of those cases, the object of their faith was Jesus. Their faith was confidence that Jesus could and would meet their need.

There is no objectless faith in the Bible. You can't have just "a slice". You can have a slice of pie or a slice of orange but you can't just have a slice. It has to be a slice of something. Always. Everywhere. Without exception. When someone holds out a pie to you with a spatula in their hand and says "do you want a slice?" they always, invariably mean a slice of pie. Similarly, you can't just have faith. You can have faith in Christ or faith in yourself or faith in science or faith in your political party but you can't just have faith. It has to be faith in something. Always. Everywhere. Without exception. When Jesus holds out his hand to you and you take it and he commends your faith, he's always, invariably commending your faith in him.

If you don't at least make an attempt to the object of the faith of these people whom you assert are saved by faith but not faith in Jesus, and you don't at least attempt what they are believers in whom you assert are not saved by Jesus, I'll consider this two related monologues instead of a conversation and end mine.

Brad

Even Jesus often said such prophecy:

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luke 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

[Jerry Frank]

Nick,

Most of the people who read and post here would agree with the Reformation position that we are "saved by GRACE through faith." Implied in that statement is that our faith is in Jesus Christ. Jesus did make the pronouncements that you quote, and the salvation indeed comes THROUGH the faith. However, without the extension of Grace through Jesus's words, there would be no salvation. All of the statements you quote imply that these people had faith, not in healing, but in Jesus Christ.

So, if I have faith in you as a so-called prophet, it would not benefit me. Such faith would not bring me salvation. If I have faith that I will be healed from cancer, it will not benefit me, either in healing or in salvation. It is only through the Grace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, that healing, salvation and entrance to heaven can be obtained.

Having said all this, please understand that there may be a problem with language here. I did not read your entire webpage but did go over selected portions of it. I found some ideas difficult to understand because the English version was not clear. The same could be happening here in the discussions that have taken place.


Jerry

[Kevin Bowser]

There is no objectless faith in the Bible. You can't have just "a slice". You can have a slice of pie or a slice of orange but you can't just have a slice. It has to be a slice of something. Always. Everywhere. Without exception. When someone holds out a pie to you with a spatula in their hand and says "do you want a slice?" they always, invariably mean a slice of pie. Similarly, you can't just have faith. You can have faith in Christ or faith in yourself or faith in science or faith in your political party but you can't just have faith. It has to be faith in something. Always. Everywhere. Without exception. When Jesus holds out his hand to you and you take it and he commends your faith, he's always, invariably commending your faith in him.

Great analogy and explanation! :fav18

[Nick Kurshev]

Nick, in every single one of those cases, the object of their faith was Jesus. Their faith was confidence that Jesus could and would meet their need.

Bible nowhere teaches that their faith was Jesus!

There is no objectless faith in the Bible. You can't have just "a slice". You can have a slice of pie or a slice of orange but you can't just have a slice. It has to be a slice of something. Always. Everywhere. Without exception. When someone holds out a pie to you with a spatula in their hand and says "do you want a slice?" they always, invariably mean a slice of pie. Similarly, you can't just have faith. You can have faith in Christ or faith in yourself or faith in science or faith in your political party but you can't just have faith. It has to be faith in something. Always. Everywhere. Without exception. When Jesus holds out his hand to you and you take it and he commends your faith, he's always, invariably commending your faith in him.

If you don't at least make an attempt to the object of the faith of these people whom you assert are saved by faith but not faith in Jesus, and you don't at least attempt what they are believers in whom you assert are not saved by Jesus, I'll consider this two related monologues instead of a conversation and end mine.

Brad

Just faith! Same as:
Romans 4:9:
for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


Nick,

Most of the people who read and post here would agree with the Reformation position that we are "saved by GRACE through faith." Implied in that

Correct phrase would be: "saved by merciful through faith"! Many believers misuse GRACE and MERCIFUL today!

statement is that our faith is in Jesus Christ. Jesus did make the pronouncements that you quote, and the salvation indeed comes THROUGH the faith. However, without the extension of Grace through Jesus's words, there would be no salvation. All of the statements you quote imply that these people had faith, not in healing, but in Jesus Christ.

Abraham was righteous by faith! Abraham did know any Jesus!

So, if I have faith in you as a so-called prophet, it would not benefit me. Such faith would not bring me salvation. If I have faith that I will be healed from cancer, it will not benefit me, either in healing or in salvation. It is only through the Grace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, that healing, salvation and entrance to heaven can be obtained.

Prophecy brings salvation! That means - WORD! In other words, prophet speaks WORD and this WORD brings salvation!

Be bless

[Brad Mercer]

Bible nowhere teaches that their faith was Jesus!

Just faith!

Well, okey doke. Those are compelling arguments. Thanks for answering. Best of luck to ya.

Brad

[Billie Goodson]

Just faith! Same as:
Romans 4:9:
for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


Correct phrase would be: "saved by merciful through faith"! Many believers misuse GRACE and MERCIFUL today!

Abraham was righteous by faith! Abraham did know any Jesus!

Prophecy brings salvation! That means - WORD! In other words, prophet speaks WORD and this WORD brings salvation!

Be bless

Nick -- to quote a poster from another discussion long ago, we should be careful about proof texts. Your use of Romans 4:9 is one example of this. This verse in no manner supports your assertion of salvation through a faith without an object of the faith. Abraham was justified by his faith (in God) and not through the law. To better understand this, you need to read Romans 4:16. We (Gentiles) are children of Abraham not by the law, but by the same faith as Abraham, that being a faith in God. Abraham was a child of God before his circumcision (by some 14 years) therefor circumcision (or, "the law") is in itself not synonymous with salvation.

As far as "merciful", this may be a language barrier issue, but, in common usage merciful requires or at least implies a noun. As an adjective, merciful has no meaning. Instead, it modifies the noun it precedes (even if the noun is only implied). I don't have any problem with your modification to the sentence Brad posted, it is basically correct. The complete version of your sentence accepting your modification would read:

"saved by [a] merciful [God] through faith"!

We would all agree with that. It is by God's mercy that we are afforded grace. Mercy is not getting what we deserve (eternal separation from God) and Grace is getting that which we do not deserve (restoration of the relationship of man to God).

Prophecy does not bring salvation. That is an incorrect assumption. In fact, in the old testament, prophecy often foretold of destruction unless the people of God turned. It was not the prophecy that brought salvation, it actually was going to bring destruction. It was the response of God's people to prophecy that could lead to salvation. If the people of God would turn from their wicked ways, they would avoid destruction. Interesting, it [prophecy of avoiding destruction] usually only dealt with the setting aside of an immediate judgment, not any sense that any future judgments could be also set aside by a singular act. That is a difference in the old and the new covenant.

As far as Abraham not knowing Jesus -- well, are you sure? He clearly knew God and if God and Jesus are one.....this raises aspects of the Trinity and a more complete understanding of it. However, we cannot discern from the evidentiary record of the old testament that Abraham did not have a knowledge of Christ. What we are clear on from the record is that Abraham was righteous before God and faith is reckoned to him. There is not even a good statement that says it is because of this faith he was saved. Genesis 15:6 says, "Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an act of righteousness." So it is clear from the old testament record as to the object of Abram's (Abraham's) faith.

[Hans Deventer]

Bible nowhere teaches that their faith was Jesus!

Nick, this is a fundamental issue. At NazNet, there are many opinions. And at times, huge difference of opinion. But I have yet to find someone who claims not to need Jesus as the object of their faith. That, to my knowlegde, has never happened yet.

I think this does rule out any serious discussion. We don't have common ground, I'm sorry to say. If you don't believe in Jesus, you are not a Christian by any confession the church has made through the ages.

I would really urge you to read the New Testament prayerfully and with an open mind, and pray for Holy Spirit to reveal the Lord Jesus to you. The Spirit is gracious and more than willing to do so.

[Jerry Frank]

Nick,

I will simply raise two issues for you. If they mean nothing to you, then I, like the others, will choose to end this discussion.

First, you clearly do not have a good enough understanding of the English language to attempt these arguments with us. My dictionary states, as one of the definitions of grace, "dispostion to grant something freely; favor; good will; mercy; clemency." Whether you use the word grace or the word mercy, both require a giver as Billie has already pointed out - God through our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Secondly, I encourage you to read the rest of the book of Romans rather than just select verses to prove your point. At the beginning of Chapter 5 is the word, "therefore". If you want to know why the previous text in Chapter 4 was written, you must read what comes after "therefore" to understand it.

And in the first few words of that chapter we read, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the Glory of God." The rest of the chapter goes on to amplify that statement. There is no question that this can only mean one thing. We are saved by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

It was these chapters that brought Martin Luther to his "aha" moment when he clearly understood the concept. I hope and pray it will also lead you to a clearer understanding of the relationship that you can have with Jesus before you lead others further astray with your teachings.

May the peace of God which passes all human understanding keep your mind in Christ Jesus, our Lord. Amen.

Jerry

[Jerry Frank]

Nick,

On my drive to work this morning, I thought of one further item that must be mentioned.

There is an important test that can be applied to know if a person is a true prophet of God. It is not the only one but it ranks above all others. A true prophet of God will NEVER, in fact cannot, contradict the message already revealed to us in scripture. A person can claim to have a thousand visions, or to have gone to heaven and returned. But if he moves or speaks in directions opposed to what is already revealed, his visions and experiences come either from his own mind or from the forces of evil.

So far, you have demonstrated, through your discussion here and the information on your website, that you are not a prophet of God. That is why some people in this forum refuse to engage in further discussion with you. There are two possibilities that can explain this.

1. Your after-life experience was a false vision which is being used to have you lead people away from true faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

2. You received a valid vision but you have gone on your own strength to try to interpret scripture with the result that you have strayed from truth.

If the first is true, then there will be no further responses to your postings on this forum. If the latter is true, you will be willing to learn from those who try to explain foundational Christian truth to you instead of trying to tell us how we must believe.

I pray that the Spirit of God will guide you as you consider these points. If you are truly open to His Word, you will be willing to learn from our discussions.


Jerry

[Kevin Bowser]

Jerry,

I think you have state very succinctly, what many of us were thinking.

Thank you!

[Nick Kurshev]

Nick -- to quote a poster from another discussion long ago, we should be careful about proof texts. Your use of Romans 4:9 is one example of this. This verse in no manner supports your assertion of salvation through a faith without an object of the faith. Abraham was justified by his faith (in God) and not through the law. To better understand this, you need to read Romans 4:16. We (Gentiles) are children of Abraham not by the law, but by the same faith as Abraham, that being a faith in God. Abraham was a child of God before his circumcision (by some 14 years) therefor circumcision (or, "the law") is in itself not synonymous with salvation.

As far as "merciful", this may be a language barrier issue, but, in common usage merciful requires or at least implies a noun. As an adjective, merciful has no meaning. Instead, it modifies the noun it precedes (even if the noun is only implied). I don't have any problem with your modification to the sentence Brad posted, it is basically correct. The complete version of your sentence accepting your modification would read:

"saved by [a] merciful [God] through faith"!

We would all agree with that. It is by God's mercy that we are afforded grace. Mercy is not getting what we deserve (eternal separation from God) and Grace is getting that which we do not deserve (restoration of the relationship of man to God).

Prophecy does not bring salvation. That is an incorrect assumption. In fact, in the old testament, prophecy often foretold of destruction unless the people of God turned. It was not the prophecy that brought salvation, it actually was going to bring destruction. It was the response of God's people to prophecy that could lead to salvation. If the people of God would turn from their wicked ways, they would avoid destruction. Interesting, it [prophecy of avoiding destruction] usually only dealt with the setting aside of an immediate judgment, not any sense that any future judgments could be also set aside by a singular act. That is a difference in the old and the new covenant.

Prophecy is only way to be sure that somebody is saved! Prophecy is word! The word has power! Word declares salvation.
John 1:1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I need to say that Word was with God! Today word is not only with God but with us too!

As far as Abraham not knowing Jesus -- well, are you sure? He clearly knew God and if God and Jesus are one.....this raises aspects of the Trinity and a more complete understanding of it. However, we cannot discern from the evidentiary record of the old testament that Abraham did not have a knowledge of Christ. What we are clear on from the record is that Abraham was righteous before God and faith is reckoned to him. There is not even a good statement that says it is because of this faith he was saved. Genesis 15:6 says, "Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an act of righteousness." So it is clear from the old testament record as to the object of Abram's (Abraham's) faith.
God-Father and Jesus are perfectly different persons of trinity! My article explains that in section True God!

Be bless!

[Billie Goodson]

Prophecy is only way to be sure that somebody is saved! Prophecy is word! The word has power! Word declares salvation.
John 1:1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I need to say that Word was with God! Today word is not only with God but with us too!

God-Father and Jesus are perfectly different persons of trinity! My article explains that in section True God!

Be bless!

Nick -- You are offering more support for the discussion in regards to Jesus being the subject of our faith when you quote John 1:1. The Greek term used was "logos" which can be (and is in many texts) translated as "word." However, in the context that John was using it, it means more than simply prophecy. Verse 14 declares that the "word" or logos became flesh and dwelt among us. John was not talking of prophecy with this verse, he was talking of Jesus, who was the fulfillment of the prophecy, and the subject of our faith.

And, yes the Word is with us today.

[Billie Goodson]

Prophecy is only way to be sure that somebody is saved! Prophecy is word! The word has power! Word declares salvation.

God-Father and Jesus are perfectly different persons of trinity! My article explains that in section True God!

Be bless!

Nick, in you article, you state "Bible contains records where Creator abandoned His own prophecies. He is omnipotent to abandon any part of own prophecy and prophecy in whole. Thus "Don't trust to any prophecy but test any prophecy and speculate with any prophecy".

So please take this in the testing vein of what you speak. How can you be assured that God will not abandon the prophecy that you speak of? I do not know if you received a prophecy, you speak of it, but, we are unable to just accept that as definitive proof. So, in accordance with your article, we test and speculate on your prophecy. The best measuring stick we have in the evaluation of your prophecy is the Holy Bible. Through it, we are able to compare and contrast what we learn of the character of God against your interpretation of the prophecy you believe was revealed to you. Nick -- it is not for me to question your receipt of a prophetic vision, but, it is for me to weigh it against the character of God that is revealed through his Holy Word. That is where the consistency seems to be difficult in maintaining. Nick, I encourage you to seek understanding from God. Read his word and then evaluate the vision you have against his word. What you are saying has to be consistent with the word of God, and right now, it is not. Please, I encourage you to seek understanding from him.

[Joyce Miller]

Nick,
You have apparently given much thought to your theological system of beliefs. Your thoughts are quite foreign to us who have been educated in the Western church from which we have received much of our understanding of God's word. I'm curious. Are your beliefs accepted in your church? Or do you think of your revelations as those of a prophet, but outside of an organized church?
Joyce

[Nick Kurshev]

I had Highest Judgment from God-Father In december 2004! I want to tell that before Highest Judgment my faith was perfectly other than today! Highest Judgment forced me to revalue many positions of my faith! I understand that Bible was wrongly translated on all languages! This fact causes many illusions about God and our world in mind of believers! The goal of my article is enlight the people who accepted false-theories from wrongly translated bible! Unfortunately, many people ignore my article without any reasons!

[Hans Deventer]

I understand that Bible was wrongly translated on all languages! This fact causes many illusions about God and our world in mind of believers! The goal of my article is enlight the people who accepted false-theories from wrongly translated bible!

So you are a scholar in Hebrew and Greek? Wow! I know a little Greek, but no Hebrew.

[Nick Kurshev]

I did write that I had Highest Judgment from God-Father! Which sholar do I need also in your opinion?

[Hans Deventer]

I did write that I had Highest Judgment from God-Father! Which scholar do I need also in your opinion?

Well, if the "Bible was wrongly translated on all languages!" as you write, you must have a very deep knowledge of the original languages to be able to tell that.
For it presumes that there is nothing wrong with the original Hebrew and Greek texts, only with the translations. Now I myself am not able to judge the translations, but I do not believe in some worldwide conspiracy from the Septuagint until the latest modern translation to always mistranslate the Scriptures in any language.

If I would believe that, I could as well believe that the Martians have done that.

I would rather believe that any revelation that contradicts the Scriptures (in whatever translation), does not come from God.

[Laurie Florence]

Hello, everyone,
Honestly, this discussion is getting more than a little bizarre. This guy comes on to the Naznet and overwhelms us with this theory that is not only confusing, but, in his descriptions of the "beast", is more than a little frightening. He then denies Jesus as the only way through which we are saved. In fact, instead of referring to Jesus as "Lord" and "Saviour" he refers to him as a "prophet". Then, as we try to carry on an intelligent discussion with him, he twists scripture around in order to support his points. Now, it appears that he is saying that all bible translations are false. As if our God - our omnipotent God - would allow false translations of His Word to float around for any length of time, let alone over a thousand years. I haven't been on the Naznet site for very long, and I hope that I don't offend anyone by this, but doesn't anyone else agree with me when I say this thread should wrap itself up soon. After all, as my Pastor said this morning, this is the Christmas season and our eyes should be on Jesus - not on beasts and their numbers.

Many Blessings!

[Billie Goodson]

Hello, everyone,
Then, as we try to carry on an intelligent discussion with him, he twists scripture around in order to support his points. Now, it appears that he is saying that all bible translations are false.

Many Blessings!

I agree with you Laurie, except on the point I quoted above. One cannot say that scriptures are translated wrong, then use them to try to prove another point. Reading Nick's prophecy and comment on here, I begin to think back to is the story of Joseph Smith and the book he authored. Am I alone in this?

[Billie Goodson]

I did write that I had Highest Judgment from God-Father! Which sholar do I need also in your opinion?

Nick, Hans did not say you needed a scholar to support you. He simply pointed out that you considered all translations of the bible to be inaccurate and you were going to re-interpret them. To do so, one would have to be able to translate Hebrew and Greek (at a minimum) languages. And, also have a valid understanding of the cultural environments in which the scriptures were written. You could be the scholar to do that, but, you would have to offer others some insight into your qualifications to do that. I have seen none so far, and your prophecy alone cannot stand the test of validity compared to scripture that we have. I guess you could go behind a curtain and look through some mystical glasses that would help you translate, but, that story has been sold once.

[John Kennedy]

I once characterized someone as not being able to distinguish eschatology from an escalator. The more I read this, the more convinced I am of the validity of the 'pan-millenial' (it'll all eventually pan out) school of thought.
It does appear that the 'eschatological escalator' has stopped on the floor having a big sign saying WELCOME TO THE TWILIGHT ZONE.

[Kevin Bowser]

Going up...

Second floor, housewares and small appliances.:basic05

[Billie Goodson]

eschatology

Can you used words like that in mixed company?

:eek:

:basic07

[Hans Deventer]

doesn't anyone else agree with me when I say this thread should wrap itself up soon. After all, as my Pastor said this morning, this is the Christmas season and our eyes should be on Jesus - not on beasts and their numbers.

I agree, no matter what the season is BTW. Our eyes should always be on Jesus.

I'll close the thread.