Should Mission Trip Count as Vacation Days for Pastor

[Scott Webb]

Would like to get input on how a pastor's time away on a mission trip should be handled. Should it be counted as vacation time? When a lay person goes on a mission trip they are required to use vacation time from their secular job, so should there be a difference?

[Dave McClung]

Would like to get input on how a pastor's time away on a mission trip should be handled. Should it be counted as vacation time? When a lay person goes on a mission trip they are required to use vacation time from their secular job, so should there be a difference?

No. Every pastor should be required or at least encouraged to go on mission trips. It should not be considered a vacation.

It is not true that all laity take vacation time for mission trips. Generally, professionals are expected to do "probono" work. It is part of maintaining their professional status. When an organization hires a professional, the organization usually pays for the professional development time, including any probono work. A pastor is a professional and the local church should pay for the mission trip.

[Ian Newton]

Shouldn’t we be about doing the best we can not the least we have to. A mind set that says Pastors have x amount of vacation time and that’s it is showing its heart. Pastor’s I know work long hours and even when they are on vacation they are called on.

I know one church that appreciated their pastor cutting short his vacation time and they insisted that he take a complete extra week instead of the few days he lost. That church of course takes a love offering when just before the Pastor goes on vacation.

Then again, I know another church that complains that the Pastor takes vacation time at all and does the least it can get away with when it comes to financial commitments, expenses and minimum wage.

If we give the best we can to our Pastors it will not be a measure of their work or indeed a reward for their work. It will be a measure of our own hearts. Let Pastors have time with their families. Let them have time for themselves. For like the people they love and serve, I am convinced, they have earned it.

Just in case anyone didn't get it, no, mission trips should not be counted as vacatation days for pastors.

[Jim Franklin]

For a pastor to be a leader on a WW mission does not take him away from his function as a minister and certainly is not relaxation. If a pastor is engaged for a series of services at another church he is paid. I do not think that a WW trip should be consdidered vacation time. It is a continuation of his or her ministerial responsibilities in a different venue.

[Kevin Bowser]

What if he/she wants to take several mission trips each year? What if he/she want to take one every month?

This is an easy conversation when there is only one trip per year and the church can afford to pay his/her way as part of his/her professional development. But this has potential abuse written all over it. Take it a little beyond one a year and you have potential problems. I have seen (and been a part of) situations where it was expected that the church would pony up for each and every great idea (mission trip) that came to their mind.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket. But the answers so far may be a little naïve. I would love to go on WW and mission trips also. But I have my regular employment that must be considered. And let's not lose sight of where that money is coming from to send the pastor every time they want to go. It is coming from you and me and the offering plate.

well, I better go dry my blanket. I probably said too much as it is. :basic04

[Dave McClung]

Would like to get input on how a pastor's time away on a mission trip should be handled. Should it be counted as vacation time? When a lay person goes on a mission trip they are required to use vacation time from their secular job, so should there be a difference?

Whether or not a mission trip is considered "vacation", pastors should remember that in most churches when the Senior Pastor is absent from the pulpit attendance and contributions are down. When a church is operating on really tight finances it makes things even tougher when the pastor is gone. For that reason, many large church pastors schedule their vacations and mission trips for Monday thru Saturday, but do their best to be in their home church on Sunday.

One of the churches where I served on the board had an agreement with the pastor that he could hold revivals in other churches and could go on mission trips as long as he didn't inform the congregation in advance that he was going to be gone. The board learned from experience that if the pastor told the congregation that he was going to be gone the attendance would drop dramatically. We always had great guest speakers, so people who came weren't disappointed.

[William Hunter]

Ian, you and Dave stated some sound truth. In these 32 plus yrs. of pastoral ministry I pastored in a couple congregations that demanded to control nearly every minute of the pastor's life. One of those congregations had never had a pastor stay more than 2 yrs. in its 40 yr. history. It is amazing how small minded people can get with their pastors at times.

Some of our people do not know the issues concerning having a professional ministry and want to treat their pastors as menial laborers. Some of our churches still have not figured out the differences between the cost of having a ministry and the cost of ministry (church business). You and Dave have stated it well here.




Shouldn’t we be about doing the best we can not the least we have to. A mind set that says Pastors have x amount of vacation time and that’s it is showing its heart. Pastor’s I know work long hours and even when they are on vacation they are called on.

I know one church that appreciated their pastor cutting short his vacation time and they insisted that he take a complete extra week instead of the few days he lost. That church of course takes a love offering when just before the Pastor goes on vacation.

Then again, I know another church that complains that the Pastor takes vacation time at all and does the least it can get away with when it comes to financial commitments, expenses and minimum wage.

If we give the best we can to our Pastors it will not be a measure of their work or indeed a reward for their work. It will be a measure of our own hearts. Let Pastors have time with their families. Let them have time for themselves. For like the people they love and serve, I am convinced, they have earned it.

Just in case anyone didn't get it, no, mission trips should not be counted as vacatation days for pastors.

[Kevin Bowser]

It is amazing how small minded people can get with their pastors at times.

Is it small minded when one disagrees with a pastor or asks them to treat their professions with the same care and courtesy that we laymen must treat ours?

[Kevin Bowser]

My apologies to William (or anyone else in this thread) if I offended you. It is just too easy to discuss some of this in theory. But, we need to be consistent in how we look at the role of pastor. So many times pastors want to have the profession looked at as other professions until some of those professional constraints appear. Then they want to shift to "ministry mode" where all of those professional and corporate evils don't apply and they can act on trust, good will and pure motivation.

So, I will leave the discussion and watch for now.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

When a church is operating on really tight finances it makes things even tougher when the pastor is gone. For that reason, many large church pastors schedule their vacations and mission trips for Monday thru Saturday, but do their best to be in their home church on Sunday.


I know that what you say here is true as I have seen it all through my ministry. From a pastor's point of view, since over half of my work week is taken up with preparing for Sunday, leaving on Monday and coming home on Saturday isn't anything close to a 6 day vacation.

Do you think that having the pastor present, but with a special speaker might be a fair compromise in such a situation? That way the "absent pastor=low attendance" is avoided, yet the pastor basically just has to "show up" on Sunday morning.

[William Hunter]

Kevin, no offense taken. I think Dave had the right idea in his posts here. The pastor needs to lead with morally and ethically sound behaviors, etc. I must admit unfortunately, that I do watch some fellow pastors misuse their positions here. It makes it hard on the rest of us when we pastor a cong. who has seen this inconsistantcy in a pastor's life.
I am reading one of the most profound books on leadership I have ever read: "Spritual Leadership (Moving People On To God's Agenda) by Henry and Richard Blackaby. I bought a copy for my two past sons-in-law and my youth pastor. While it is primarily written for people in leadership in business, industry, education, etc., there is alot in here a pastor needs to read. It is deeply challenging to this pastor, and to others I know who have read it. it will address a pastor's moral and ethical behavior, as well as that of other leaders. I must say, that I think there needs to be a spiritual encounter with God in some pastors when I hear them talk of the very things you suggest. Kevin, how do we pastors expect such high behavior from our laypeople if we do not live it ourselves?

I am in a cong. that has demonstrated their unconditional trust in me as their pastor. It is very sobbering for I know how easy it would be to misuse that trust. I pray about this in order to maintain a level of behavior with them that is deserving of their trust. They respond in kind with allowing me to take part in things that other professionals would be able to take part in their work, and the result has been a better pastor for them. Trust is a huge issue and it grieves me when a see a fellow pastor knowingly misuse it.




My apologies to William (or anyone else in this thread) if I offended you. It is just too easy to discuss some of this in theory. But, we need to be consistent in how we look at the role of pastor. So many times pastors want to have the profession looked at as other professions until some of those professional constraints appear. Then they want to shift to "ministry mode" where all of those professional and corporate evils don't apply and they can act on trust, good will and pure motivation.

So, I will leave the discussion and watch for now.

[Barbara Moulton]

When a church is operating on really tight finances it makes things even tougher when the pastor is gone. For that reason, many large church pastors schedule their vacations and mission trips for Monday thru Saturday, but do their best to be in their home church on Sunday... The board learned from experience that if the pastor told the congregation that he was going to be gone the attendance would drop dramatically. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Not just large churches. Small ones too. We rarely take a Sunday off, for this precise reason.

[Barb Bouldrey]

NO.

When pastors go on Work and Witness trips I always send a letter to the church board asking them to help their pastor go on this trip and please do not count this time as vacation. It is a ministry trip.

Most pastors have to pay at least part of their own expenses to go on Work and Witness trips. It is rare for a congregation to pay the entire expense, unless it is a large church or a church that has this trip in its annual budget.

A pastor who wants to take more than one mission trip a year should consider some of that time as vacation time...if it is more than once a year. It is not fair to a congregation to have their pastor constantly gone on mission trips and then want vacation time also.

Also, I believe a pastor should get the approval of the church board before taking extra time off for a mission trip unless that pastor decides to use vacation time to do so.

Work and Witness is such a wonderful experience. Every pastor should go at least once. It changes the understanding and vision of missions.

I also believe that a pastor should not expect the church to finance or help finance missions trips over and over unless the trip is a church trip with a team from that church and part of that church's agenda.

Anyone who has been on a missions trip will tell you it is NO vacation! But it is a blessing.

Barb

[William Hunter]

My church board understands this very issue and it is why that when I am scheduled to be away, they are the only ones who know about until that Sunday I am gone.

Maybe some of the laypeople here can help us with this one. Why do some laypeople think it is ok to not be attendance in their church, or to give their tithe, on Sundays the pastor is not there? I have seen this for more than 32 yrs. of ministry and have wondered why.



Not just large churches. Small ones too. We rarely take a Sunday off, for this precise reason.

[Mike Norris]

....Since I plan and direct our local W&W trips ( and we take one every year )....and since I am really the driving force for missions in the local church.......and since that means that I am " expected " to be part of that W&W team......I do not count time away for those trips as vacation. The church also pays for my trip because I am " expected " to be a member of the team.

When I participate on a District W&W trip.....which I do every few years.....I personally DO count that as vacation and also pay my own way. Although my participation on a District team signals my heart for missions to the local church , I am not " expected " to be on the district team. It is , rather , a choice that I make because I love missions and love to be part of W&W.

As District Finance Chairman , I insist that the District pay for the District W&W Coordinators trip when a district team goes to a mission field. Again , my feeling is that since they are " expected " to be part of the team.....and the district gets the publicity and benefit from having a district team.....the district NMI should pay for the coordinators to be team members. That recommendation has been well received here.....and our District NMI gladly pays the way for the couple that leads the District team.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Mike,

I am the District NMI President. Our council always pays for the expenses of the person directing the trip.

Sounds as if you are doing this correctly in your local church and on your district. If you are expected to be on the team then it is not vacation time, but work.

Barb

[Bruce Carriker]

I think it depends on the circumstances of the trip. If the pastor is the one responsible for organizing and leading the trip, that's not a vacation. Does the church pay the pastor overtime for the time required to plan, coordinate on the front end of the trip? Most do not.

HOWEVER, if someone else is leading the trip and the pastor is just "going along", like everyone else...if he/she has no leadership responsibilities for the planning or leading of the trip...then counting it as vacation is entirely appropriate.

In response to Kevin, I would answer his quesiton with a question:

Is it selfish of pastors to expect the same respect for their days off and vacation time that everyone else expects of theirs?

[Barbara Moulton]

My church board understands this very issue and it is why that when I am scheduled to be away, they are the only ones who know about until that Sunday I am gone.


We did take the first Sunday of November off. This time, we decided only to let the board know. The attendance stayed up.

[Dave McClung]

Do you think that having the pastor present, but with a special speaker might be a fair compromise in such a situation? That way the "absent pastor=low attendance" is avoided, yet the pastor basically just has to "show up" on Sunday morning.

Yes, that is a good solution to the problem. That might be a good Sunday to have a missionary speak.

[Dave McClung]

Maybe some of the laypeople here can help us with this one. Why do some laypeople think it is ok to not be attendance in their church, or to give their tithe, on Sundays the pastor is not there? I have seen this for more than 32 yrs. of ministry and have wondered why.

It has to do with "accoutability." Do you remember when you were in school and the teacher left the classroom? Well, that is what a church is like when the pastor is gone -- with some adjustments for adult bahavior.

Whether the pastor wants to be the "boss" or not, he or she is the one in charge. It is human nature to behave better when the person in charge is present.

[Mike Schutz]

I have to admit that I am a little surprised at a hint of an adversarial relationship between pastor and laity here. I thank God that this is not the case where I am privileged to serve.

For our first local W & W trip, I organized it, led it, preached on site , my wife and I led several teaching sessions, and I coordinated logistics. I raised the money not only for myself, but also for my wife and our two teenagers to participate, with all money coming from outside the church. Neither the church nor the local NMI contributed to personal or project costs, although many church members contributed to the personal costs of the team members. The church had never had a trip before, didn't understand the benefits. Now, they have seen the benefits and when we have our next one, they will be more likely to support it.

As to the suggestion that pastors want the benefits both of "professional" status as well as the benefits of doing ministry, I'm sure there is some abuse due to lack of accountability. I have never understood why some pastors get defensive when asked how they spend their time. I provide my board with a printed calendar of how I spend my time, hour by hour. I want them to know what I do. If someone in the church thinks I should be doing more visitation, or thinks that I only work on Sunday, I want my board to be able to respond. If board members think I should be working more (or, as my board has suggested, working less), we have the facts in front of us for discussion.

As a pastor who has worked in another professional field, I can tell you that there is far more accountability demanded in pastoral ministry. Of course, for those who know me and know what my previous profession was, you know that, as I was typing that previous sentence, my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek. ;)

Grace and peace,
Mike

[Kevin Bowser]

Is it selfish of pastors to expect the same respect for their days off and vacation time that everyone else expects of theirs?

Bruce,

I don't think it is selfish of them at all. In fact, I wan't my pastor to take time off to spend with his wife and kids. Too many of them end up losing one or both of those groups due to their work habits.

But again, I have gotten more calls from pastors on my day off (Saturday) than I have made calls to pastors on their day off (Monday traditionally.) And I have been made to feel guilty for not being at the church at the crack of dawn on my day off to mow the lawn or paint a class room. When I know for a fact that the pastor went as far away from the church building on his day off. Comparing clergy to lay is tricky under the best of circumstances!

I know you can't exactly tell it from my recent posts on this thread, but I actually am a strong supporter of the role of pastor. It is just that these are some of the details where a lack of open communication and written policies can get pastors and laymen all riled up.

[Kevin Bowser]

I have to admit that I am a little surprised at a hint of an adversarial relationship between pastor and laity here.

And I am not surprised that you are surprised.:basic03

And I am one of those folks that know your tongue was firmly planted in cheek! But these kinds of discussions often are surprising to pastors. Why do you suppose that is? I have some ideas. But, I'll sit back for a while and listen to see what some other ideas surface.

That question may even be worthy of starting a new thread! :fav18

[Hans Deventer]

Maybe some of the laypeople here can help us with this one. Why do some laypeople think it is ok to not be attendance in their church, or to give their tithe, on Sundays the pastor is not there? I have seen this for more than 32 yrs. of ministry and have wondered why.

As to attendance, our pastor preaches 2 or 3 Sunday's a month so the other Sundays we have guest speakers. I don't see a difference in attendance. And our income is for 90% through direct bank transfers so the attendance on one given Sunday does not have much of an impact on the total income.

Generally, if the pastor is away for vacation or whatever, things continue as normal. We just have different preachers and of course several committees and groups have to step in a little more often.

When I read the stories in this thread it kind of scares me. The pastor is not the church, and should not be. Nor should (s)he be "the boss". We have one Master and all are brothers and sisters. If a pastor can't leave for a Sunday, something is wrong in my view. I don't need him to hold my hand.

[Cindi Hammons]

Generally, if the pastor is away for vacation or whatever, things continue as normal.

I've never noticed a difference in attendance when the pastor is gone. That is a new one on me.

[Mark Doble]

no

[Barb Bouldrey]

The attendence is almost always lower when we are gone. People who know ahead of time that we are going to be gone choose that Sunday to go out of town to visit a relative.

One time, in one pastorate, a family chose to visit another Nazarene church 30 miles away on a Sunday we were gone. They liked it and stayed. If fact, within one month we lost 16 people from our congregation to that church because one couple visited there while we were on vacation.

Some of it depends on the pulpit supply pastor John gets. He has learned there are some our people just do not like, so some go visiting if that preacher fills in.

Barb

[Jon Twitchell]

In my experience, it has depended on who the trip was for/with.

I once went on a district work & witness trip to Belize. I took a church member with me. I received a scholarship from the district, and the church had available funds specifically to send people on Work & Witness. Both of our expenses were paid in full, and I did not count the trip as "vacation time."

More recently, I had an opportunity to go to Ecuador as a representative of the radio station I volunteer for. The record label and missions organization that sponsored and ran the trip paid my way. I counted that trip as vacation time.

Our policies grant me X number of vacation weeks (including Sundays), and X number of enrichment/education/revival weeks (including Sundays). I do not always use them...in particularly I do not always use the Sundays. However, my district responsibilities do require me to be away on Sundays from time to time, and I charge those days against my enrichment/education/revival weeks.

I also have a general philosophy that whoever expects me to do something had also better be prepared to fund it. I'm not a big fan of unfunded mandates--either in our nation's governmental structure or in the church. So, for me, the question is--who am I going on behalf of? If I go on behalf of the church, they need to be prepared to pay for the cost of that ministry. If I go on behalf of the radio station, they need to be prepared to pay that cost. The question of vacation time should be answered in the same way. If, on the other hand, I just want to go on a trip for personal edification, I had better be prepared to raise that money myself.

On another note, everytime I've been away on a ministry trip like that (or even like NYC or Teen Camp), I am told that my sermons coming out of those experiences are more powerful, and that the trip was worth it.

[Bruce Carriker]

Comparing clergy to lay is tricky under the best of circumstances!


BINGO! DING! DING! DING! :fav18

And yet we're either unwilling or unable able to stop. :rolleyes:

[Kevin Bowser]

And yet we're either unwilling or unable able to stop.

Sort of like not being able to stop looking at a train wreck! :basic05

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Would like to get input on how a pastor's time away on a mission trip should be handled. Should it be counted as vacation time? When a lay person goes on a mission trip they are required to use vacation time from their secular job, so should there be a difference?

My church's adopted policy states in part:

"The Pastor shall be allowed time away for all appropriate Zone, District, Regional, and General events. The Pastor shall also be allowed time away for such things as ongoing training and equipping, short personal spiritual and planning retreats, and special ministry opportunities.... It is recognized that all such time away is within the nature of the pastoral ministry and is distinct from time off. (It is understood that if such time away becomes a problem, more specific guidelines may be set.)" (Emphasis added for this post.)

This policy was adopted in 2001 and so far, "more specific guidelines," have not been needed!

Wilson

[Dave McClung]

My church's adopted policy states in part:

"The Pastor shall be allowed time away for all appropriate Zone, District, Regional, and General events. The Pastor shall also be allowed time away for such things as ongoing training and equipping, short personal spiritual and planning retreats, and special ministry opportunities.... It is recognized that all such time away is within the nature of the pastoral ministry and is distinct from time off. (It is understood that if such time away becomes a problem, more specific guidelines may be set.)" (Emphasis added for this post.)

This policy was adopted in 2001 and so far, "more specific guidelines," have not been needed!

Wilson

Wilson

Would you be willing to share your church policies?

[Bob Evans]

This entire discussion is disturbing to me and reminds my why the Lord will have to call me very loudly back into perish ministry.

Those who want to charge the pastors vacation time for mission trips are reducing the ministry to a hired machine operator with manufactoring quotas. And if he is away from his machine it should cost him his vacation time because after all no parts are being made.

The reality of ministry is that much of ministry is unmeasurable. And if a pastor sets an example of a missionary spirit, provides leadership, and comes home with a greater vision for ministry then even though its in Mexico in February its work.

I think I think that its this attitude causes persih ministers to consider other forms of ministry outside the church.

[Marsha Lynn]

I've never noticed a difference in attendance when the pastor is gone. That is a new one on me.

Wow, Cindi. You must have quite a church. I think low attendance when the pastor is gone is a pretty widespread trend. Some of our low attendance, however, seems to be simply a manifestation of Murphy's Law. (What can go wrong will go wrong.) Of course, if the pastor leaves with his/her family, that's already a slight dip in attendance, which can be significant in a small church. But we've received phone calls on Sunday morning from people announcing they won't be filling their usual roles that morning who had no idea that the pastor was out of town. One Sunday it became almost comical as phone call after phone call trying to fill holes only revealed more holes to fill. And I don't think any of those who were absent knew (or remembered) that the pastor was on vacation.

My goal is to be trustworthy enough that it's safe for me to know ahead of time that the pastor will be gone on Sunday.

:basic07

Marsha

[Cindi Hammons]

Wow, Cindi. You must have quite a church.

Ummm...no not really. Or maybe I'm just not very observant...although I don't think that is the issue.

[Mike Schutz]

My church's adopted policy states in part:

"The Pastor shall be allowed time away for all appropriate Zone, District, Regional, and General events. The Pastor shall also be allowed time away for such things as ongoing training and equipping, short personal spiritual and planning retreats, and special ministry opportunities.... It is recognized that all such time away is within the nature of the pastoral ministry and is distinct from time off. (It is understood that if such time away becomes a problem, more specific guidelines may be set.)" (Emphasis added for this post.)

This policy was adopted in 2001 and so far, "more specific guidelines," have not been needed!

Wilson

Wilson,
I would agree with Dave. Our church is realizing the need for some written policies in several areas and yours sound reasonable and helpful. Would you mind sharing.

Grace and peace,
Mike

[Steve Reece]

Not show up when the pastor is gone? Here I grew up in the Nazarene Church and didn't know we could do that. :basic05

I have always enjoyed our guests preachers at every church in which I have been a part. I've never noticed a drop in attendence when the pastor is gone, but I haven't been looking for it either.

As far as taking vacation time for a mission trip? No. In fact in some cases it might be reasonable for the church to require it and, being as it is requied, fully finance it.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Wilson,
I would agree with Dave. Our church is realizing the need for some written policies in several areas and yours sound reasonable and helpful. Would you mind sharing.

Grace and peace,
Mike

I wouldn't consider it "publish-able" but it is working for us. Basically, whenever we decided something that is somewhat long-lasting or repititous we designate a policy and add it to our, "Policies and Procedures Manual," along with the date it was adopted.

I have also tried to follow the principle of adopting some policies when things weren't an issue so that we could discuss them while there is no emotional basis. For example, we set a "fund-raiser" policy before anyone came up with a fund-raising idea.... Our, "sabbatical policy" would be another example. When we adopted the "positon," I told them I wouldn't be taking one until at least fall of 2008.

It is a long way from being exhaustive and/or professional but it may be somewhat helpful.

Wilson

[Billie Goodson]

Pastors should be charged for any time they are away from their duties. And, I agree that many mission trips should be part of their duties. Then you can also add in that pastors benefits should include a special category for just such an occasion.

I think it is really so dependent on the circumstances. The problem gets to be when either side decides to monitor the clock. Dave's comments about hourly/salaried (in another thread spun off from this one) is really significant in this discussion. It is also a clear reason why communication prior to events is so important.

Basically, I have no problem with the pastor being gone whenever I want him to be. :)

[David Cash]

A lot of this is going to be case by case. I think we all do well to be generous with our pastors.

As for the pastor who takes multiple mission trips each year. Maybe this guy needs to reconsider his calling. Maybe God wants him on the missionfield full time.

Another issue to be considered is what kind of work is being done. If he is preaching, it isn't much of a vacation. I work in the lumber industry, and hoisting building materials around for a foreign building project doesn't sound like much of a vacation to me.

Another issue that gets into the mix is the fact that it the only Nazarene Work and Witness trip that I've heard reported on involved a fairly significant amount of recreational time, touring, fishing, hitting the beach, whatever. Not to say that's wrong, but looking at it as a stingy person, a church could call part of the trip vacation and part work. I don't recommend that, but in the business world, it might fly.

Again, I think it pays to be generous with your pastor. If the church has the resources, give him his trip as an extra benefit, not part of his vacation.

David Cash

[David Cash]

As to attendance, our pastor preaches 2 or 3 Sunday's a month so the other Sundays we have guest speakers. I don't see a difference in attendance. And our income is for 90% through direct bank transfers so the attendance on one given Sunday does not have much of an impact on the total income.

Generally, if the pastor is away for vacation or whatever, things continue as normal. We just have different preachers and of course several committees and groups have to step in a little more often.

When I read the stories in this thread it kind of scares me. The pastor is not the church, and should not be. Nor should (s)he be "the boss". We have one Master and all are brothers and sisters. If a pastor can't leave for a Sunday, something is wrong in my view. I don't need him to hold my hand.

This is a very interesting post, Hans. I'm not aware of people donating to local churches through direct bank transfers in this country. Does it work well?

Your final paragraph is one that I identify with. As much as I appreciate my pastor, and as much as I recognize his role as a leader, the fact remains that the pastor is not the church. A church is a group of people meeting together for worship and who have some kind of mutual commitment. Such a church, frankly, can function for extended periods without a pastor. (I hope to be a pastor someday, so I'm not knocking pastors.) When we lose sight of the fact that we're a body and turn into just a bunch of people coming to watch a professional run a religious show we cease to be a church. When the pastor is gone, it is especially important that the church members come together to keep things on track.

One of the most impressive churches I visited during the church change that brought me into the church of the Nazarene was an Evangelical Free church. It was some distance from my home, and obviously wasn't the church I settled in, but both times I was there, their pastor was gone. The laypeople ran the service, including giving the sermon and teaching the Sunday school.
On top of it all, they did a good job and were very friendly.

I guess this is a bit off topic. Maybe I should have just clicked the thanks button.

David Cash