Mark of the Beast irreversible damnation?

[Thomas Weyandt]

I look for no controversies with this just floating the question that anyone who takes the mark of the beast irrevocably lost or is saving faith and repentance still possible? After all, there are over six billion people on Earth and where will all the Tribulation believers come from? Only those who accept mark or those also who repent? For that matter is repentance still possible for those who take the mark up to the time that Christ returns and it is too late to change your mind then? Mass repentance seems to be not happening yet God continues to evangelise people, calling them to repent throughout the Tribulation?

[BobHunt]

Thomas, I thought Nazarenes didnt do anything with future events in case they guessed wrong.

[David Cash]

A very good question, Tom. I don't know the answer, but I have more questions than answers when it comes to Bible prophecy. My inclination is to believe that anyone who receives Christ as his or her Savior can be saved regardless of the mark of the beast.

David Cash

[Dane Gjesdal]

I look for no controversies with this just floating the question that anyone who takes the mark of the beast irrevocably lost or is saving faith and repentance still possible? After all, there are over six billion people on Earth and where will all the Tribulation believers come from? Only those who accept mark or those also who repent? For that matter is repentance still possible for those who take the mark up to the time that Christ returns and it is too late to change your mind then? Mass repentance seems to be not happening yet God continues to evangelize people, calling them to repent throughout the Tribulation?

These things are always fun to look into. First though we need to understand that there are three distinct views (basically) of end times. Post-millennial (John Wesley, Adam Clark) A-millennial (early Church Fathers) and Pre-millennial (Hall Lindsey/Tim LaHey, Darby)

I used to be a hard nosed Pre-Millennial believer, but the more I studied I felt that the A-millennial view handled the scriptures with respect IMA (exegetically). I believe one should study all the views and not be dogmatic.

I have read Ray Summers’ (a Greek scholar) book, “Worthy is the Lamb”, and it intrigued me so much that it started me thinking beyond grass hoppers and helicopters. It taught me not to look at the book of Revelation as though it was a crystal ball. Also, I discovered that the pre-millennial view is fairly recent (200 years or less) and its origin is found in Darby-ism.

The question about being able to repent after one receives the mark is a pre-millennial type question. (Pre-millennial= 7 years + 1000 years)

Post-millennial/a-millennial answer: The mark on your head and hand: Your hand is what you do (“if your hand caused you to sin…”), and your head (“write the law on the frontlets of your head”) is what you believe. People during the time of Roman rule and torture (the early church) were commanded to worshiped the Roman Emperor and by doing so they took the mark of the beast by what they believed (mark on the for-head) and what they did (with their hands they took a pinch of incense and hailed Nero as God). Notice in Revelation that the Christians have a mark as well, but no one seems to mention this.

They could always repent of this sin for God can cleanse us from ALL sin. (1 John 1:9)

Pre-millennial answer: Once those who are “left behind” take the mark of the beast (during the 7 year trib) they seal their doom. For a Calvinist they would not be of the chosen so it just shows their destiny. Darby was the author of dispensationalism – pre-millennialism and was a Calvinist so that is why this is taught. For those who are Wesleyan/Arminian and hold to a pre-millennial view they would say that if they take the mark of the beast their probationary period is over. There is no way to repent. (This is a hard core view for a Wesleyan/Arminian to hold)

I hope this did not muddy the waters. (Ha ha)

[Dale Cozby]

I believe you are confusing your terms and thier meaning.

Millennialism is the belief one has about the 1000 yr reign of Jesus spoken of in the Word.

I believe you are attaching tribulation theology to millennial theology. The two are not joined at the hip. Although most people who espouse a pre-trib view are alos pre-millenial.

It is possible to be post-trib and pre-millennial.

Tribulation theology deals with the 7 yrs spoken of for the reign of the Beast(s). The mark of the beast deals with this time frame.

Tribulation theology has three basic position.
Pre-trib is popularized by the "Left Behind" series. this position IMO is very weak. It does fit into Calvinistic theology just fine though. What a suprise.
Mid-trib says that the Second coming occurs during the middle of the 7yrs.
Post trib or Pre-Wrath essentially says all Christians must endure this time of tribulation and purification.

The millenial theology you speak of deals with the nature the 1000 yr reign of Jesus on earth. Literal, symbolic or otherwise.

I personally have come to believe that in the end, a literal 7 yr peace treaty with Israel will be put in place by the Beast and it will mark the beginning of the end. At that time the mark will be required. True Christians will not accept it. It will cause hardship, persecution and isolation of true believers and also criminals that can't take it ofr obvious reasons. Thus Christians will look like criminals to the rest of the world. In the end you will have one mark or the other. Heaven and hell, black or white. hot or cold. NO Purgatory, shade of grey, or lukewarm. Just like it was for the 3 hebrew children and the firey furnace, like Daniel and the lions den.

As far as the 1000 yrs. You left one out. Pan-millenial. It will "pan out" in the end. I feel we need to be more concerned with the coming tribulation than if the 1000 yrs has come or is here or will come.

We must be careful not to turn the words of prophets into some vague nebulous symbolism. If we do we take out the power of the word. Think how many prophecies Jesus fullfilled in his first coming? I have heard 168 were fullfilled. Do you think his second coming will be any different? No I think we will see so many things fullfilled we will be prepared to face tribulation because we are certain of his eminant return from the signs of the time.

[John Kennedy]

One of the soundest points of view was espoused by a former pastor of mine. He used to point out that Jesus had a great deal more to say about how we are to treat the poor and oppressed than aout the specifics of his coming.

I can't think of any other issue that has generated so much heat and produced so little light.

[Roland Hearn]

These things are always fun to look into. First though we need to understand that there are three distinct views (basically) of end times. Post-millennial (John Wesley, Adam Clark) A-millennial (early Church Fathers) and Pre-millennial (Hall Lindsey/Tim LaHey, Darby)

That's a good answer Dane really balanced and fair. I agree with you and take the same position.

[Dane Gjesdal]

I believe you are confusing your terms and thier meaning.

Millennialism is the belief one has about the 1000 yr reign of Jesus spoken of in the Word.

I believe you are attaching tribulation theology to millennial theology. The two are not joined at the hip. Although most people who espouse a pre-trib view are alos pre-millenial. .

Dale, I was a strong believer in the tribulation models, but have changed over the years. I do not think if one holds any view as long as they believe in the immanent return of Christ I am fine with it.

I hope it was not an attack. I see glaring flaws in all of the Pre, Post and A views, but that does not mean we cannot challenge them and show that there is more than one view that is viable both hermeneutically and exegetically.

I have just seen so much attack on people who do not hold to this latest popular view and all others views have been deemed “false doctrine” and are not allowed taught in our churches. I will let all three or Six views (smile) taught as long as we all know that they are Models and all have their place. The Church of God, Anderson, brothers take a pretty strong view in the A-millennial view and they are fundamental.

It is possible to be post-trib and pre-millennial. .

Yes, but by being a Pre, Mid or Post Trib you become a dispensationalist. All of these views require dispensational thinking. Before Darby, the father of Dispensationalism, there was no such thing as Pre, Mid or Post trib theologies. I believe one cannot separate the tribulation views from the dispensational Pre-Millennial view. They are joined at the hip. This is just like Calvinism, if you believe in Predestination you have to believe in Perseverance of the saints. One is built on the other.


Tribulation theology deals with the 7 yrs spoken of for the reign of the Beast(s). The mark of the beast deals with this time frame.

Tribulation theology has three basic position.
Pre-trib is popularized by the "Left Behind" series. this position IMO is very weak. It does fit into Calvinistic theology just fine though. What a suprise.
Mid-trib says that the Second coming occurs during the middle of the 7yrs.
Post trib or Pre-Wrath essentially says all Christians must endure this time of tribulation and purification.

The millenial theology you speak of deals with the nature the 1000 yr reign of Jesus on earth. Literal, symbolic or otherwise.

I personally have come to believe that in the end, a literal 7 yr peace treaty with Israel will be put in place by the Beast and it will mark the beginning of the end. At that time the mark will be required. True Christians will not accept it. It will cause hardship, persecution and isolation of true believers and also criminals that can't take it ofr obvious reasons. Thus Christians will look like criminals to the rest of the world. In the end you will have one mark or the other. Heaven and hell, black or white. hot or cold. NO Purgatory, shade of grey, or lukewarm. Just like it was for the 3 hebrew children and the firey furnace, like Daniel and the lions den. .

The question is can a Christian “Lapse” (take the mark)? Can they then be brought back into the fold? I say yes. If we say only true Christians will not take the mark shows the Calvinistic root of this theology. Does someone have free will? Can they “laps”? Certainly this is not an unpardonable sin. Is the blood of Jesus found wanting at this point? Certainly not. It has the power to cleanse from all and any sin and anything less would make the cross impotent.

In the early church under persecution there where those who did “lapse” and worshiped the beast, or Emperor worship (The hills of Rome Rev 17:9). Can it be any clearer. This is a fact of Roman history and how the church was persecuted. The Christians who lapsed where taken back in but were looked down on.


I personally have come to believe that in the end, a literal 7 yr peace treaty with Israel will be put in place by the Beast and it will mark the beginning of the end. At that time the mark will be required. .

Let me give an example: …

There is no 7 years mentioned in the book of Revelation. As for Israel, are we not the Israel of God? Is not a true Israelite one who is one inwardly? (Romans 2:29) Are not those who persist in unbelief broken off? (Romans 11:20) Is the Abrahamic covenant “obsolete” (Heb 8:13) because it is now fulfilled in the church? Is God not “blessing all nations” through the Church and not through a physical theocracy? (Gal 3:8) What is the Synagogue of Satan? Did Jesus say his Kingdom is not of this world? Did Revelation not have any relevance to a persecuted church that John addressed it to? Was the book of Revelation not written to the 7 Churches? Does what “will soon take place” (Rev 1:1, 22:6) not to be taken literally, or is 2000 years and counting “soon”? (do a word study on “quickly”) Does the Kingdom of God come? Can Jesus come quickly into a horrible trial and tribulation as the early church was going through? Did not Jesus teach us to pray for his Kingdom to come? Or, was he talking about something that will take place thousands of years later? Did His kingdom not march across the West and take Rome? Has it not covered the world? This is what motivated John Wesley?

How can God endorse the reinstitution of sacrifices when in the NT it was “anathema”? You know, the 144,000, the evangelist who sacrifice at the temple and preach Jesus and salvation throughout the 7 years. The A-millennial view is almost the same as the post trib view. Some in the A-millennial view believe that Satan will be loosed in the last days and “deceive the nations.”

Picture taken from the Mt of Olives
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1787/templefromthemteo7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
When Jesus was preaching the Olivet discourse with Jerusalem and the temple in full view have any relevance when he said that “not one stone will be lift upon another”? When Josephus writes that not “one Christian was found in Jerusalem”, in 70 AD, when it was destroyed by Rome because he said, “they heeded the words of their Lord and fled”.


As far as the 1000 yrs. You left one out. Pan-millenial. It will "pan out" in the end. I feel we need to be *more concerned with the coming tribulation *than if the 1000 yrs has come or is here or will come. .

Yes, I did leave this out. This view is more of what I believe in. I just have a hard time with the Pre-Mid and Post tribulation models scripturally, and the Pre-millennial view because of its roots in Calvinism and Darbyism (Dispensationalism).


We must be careful not to turn the words of prophets into some vague nebulous symbolism. If we do we take out the power of the word. Think how many prophecies Jesus fullfilled in his first coming? .

Yes and the Dispensationalist want to place some of these fulfillments to a “stay tuned till next week (millennium)” approach.

Yes, and we know the fulfilled prophecies because Jesus said “This is fulfilled” and so did the Apostles. Do we have someone today who is an Apostle who can speak, “this has been fulfilled”? We do not. It is open to interpretation. There are a lot of passages that may have been fulfilled in Revelation but because of Darby-ism the fulfilled prophecies are placed at a future date. I do not see things as “vague and nebulous” but I also do not want to make something out that is meant symbolic and take it literally. If a person’s eye causes him to sin should he gouge it out? If you take it literally you miss the point. Is Jesus going to ride in on a white horse with flowing white hair with a sward coming out of his mouth? You take it literally you miss the point. Revelation was written during a time of persecution and cryptically wrote to encourage and protect the church from Rome who was intercepting mail and tracking down Christians. You study the OT and Revelation comes alive yet to a Roman it would make no sense.


I have heard 168 were fulfilled. Do you think his second coming will be any different? No I think we will see so many things fulfilled we will be prepared to face tribulation because we are certain of his eminent return from the signs of the time. .

Yes, just as the Magi who may have been well versed in the Hebrew writings from the great library in Babylon; read Daniel and the 490 years till the Messiah and were looking for him. John the Baptist (Isaiah) who may have been an Essene (The book of Daniel was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls) and may have also read the 490 days prophesy of Daniel and that the last week was about to start and was preparing the way, as John said, “The TIME has come”… “Repent for the Kingdom of God is near”.

I say all of this because John Wesley had some amassing thoughts on these verses as well as Adam Clark and we just seem to dismiss them. I think we should at least recognize that these are not “attacks” but interpretations that are legitimate, viable, fundamental and historical all the way down to the early church fathers. This Johnny come lately interpretation (Dispensationalism) of Revelation by Lindsey and LaHay tickles the ear but it also should be able to stand for some critical thinking.

I do not mean to attack anything but at least make us take a look at this wonderful WORD and be careful how we use it. I think it is good to have some dicsussion on this topic.

[Dane Gjesdal]

That's a good answer Dane really balanced and fair. I agree with you and take the same position.
Thank you Roland. This position that I take does not make me very popular. People love the new books that are out and that is great because anything that can get people thinking about their eternity works for me, but they want me to teach on just one view. I wont do it. Got to be true to God's word.

[Thomas Weyandt]

When the tribulation begins, we have over six billion people who are not Christians because they never heard gospel or didn''t recieve it. These people have the potential to become tribulation believers. Now some will recognize what they are in due to past testimony of Raptured believers who have left behind their witness, books, tapes, DVDs, ect. of the End Times.
Some of this number will convert. There will be two witnesses in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years and there will be the 144,000 evangelists who are Jews who will spread the gospel like an army of Billy Graham's. Some will believe this testimony. Some will take the mark. Meanwhile various events happen that reduce Earth's population.
Now in the face of the judgements and God calling on people to repent which will at one point include angels spreading the gospel we have people who took the Mark and the question is can some of these people repent and turn to Christ on the principle of free will and Jesus saying that whoever ccomes to him He will cast aside.
Or once you take the Mark, can you change or are you already damned?

[David Cash]

If it's of any interest, my understanding is that Calvinism was a-millenial until the dispensational movement. There is also an a-millenelial preterest movement among some Calvinists that claim that the prophecies have already been fulfilled. Obviously, all of us Arminians as well as the vast majority of evangelical Calvinists would have a problem with the idea that the resurrection is past.

David Cash

[Dale Cozby]

Yes, but by being a Pre, Mid or Post Trib you become a dispensationalist Dane, Could explain why these are joined at the hip? What are the factors of tribulation thought that cannot be separated from dispensational thought?

"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. (not fulfilled in any time of history) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast(not fulfilled in history) —all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."

where do we place these prophecies? Unfullfilled, fulfilled or only symbolic and cannot be taken as prophecy?

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. (Unfulfilled?)

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Rev 14: 9-12

Since the first two are as yet unfulfilled then this last one is also unfulfilled as it deals with the same world leader or system. So do we take this literally or is the Angel only speaking figuratively? Do you belive in hell? Or is it just figurative as well?

The question is can a Christian “Lapse” (take the mark)? Can they then be brought back into the fold? I say yes. If we say only true Christians will not take the mark shows the Calvinistic root of this theology. Could you address Revelation 14:9-10 then? How do you reconcile your belief in the mark being meaningless to salvation or condemnation when the scripture seems very clear on this issue? “Oops sorry didn’t mean to take the Mark. Just a moment of weakness just before your coming” just doesn’t seem to cut it with me. I am a black and white thinker when it comes to God and his judgement. Left hand, right hand, heaven or hell, in the book or not.

There is no 7 years mentioned in the book of Revelation Doesn’t have to be in Revelation to be future prophecy. There are plenty of unfulfilled prophecies in the OT. This is just one example.

You go on to ask many questions you are already convinced of the answer. You seem to believe that all the prophecy has already been fulfilled related to the tribulation during the Roman persecutions. I don’t. Although I respect JW and JA as great church leaders, they are not the definitive answer to eschatology. I am firmly convinced after many years of study that we have a lot of prophecy waiting to be fulfilled in the end time as a testament to Jesus Christ’s 2nd coming. Just like we see with his firtst coming. While some scripture can be seen as addressing the early church, most of the NT prophecy is coming to fruition now. Not 1936 yrs ago.

[Roland Hearn]

You go on to ask many questions you are already convinced of the answer. You seem to believe that all the prophecy has already been fulfilled related to the tribulation during the Roman persecutions. I don’t.

Dale, that would be the issue then. It is clearly a matter of the interpretation that you have chosen to align with that causes you to think that way. It is obviously not a matter of independent fact. It seems to me that you are so locked into seeing it one way that you find interpreting those versus differently as almost a matter of ultimate right and wrong. It clearly isn't. The whole end time tribulation theology has a commitment to a certain understanding of prophecy. If you see prophecy as fulfilling an entirely different function than primarily telling the future such tightly bound perspectives are not necessary. Prophecy is about the revelation of the nature of God first and foremost not about the identification of events. If what you are saying is true then Revelation and other 'unfulfilled' prophecy has next to no value outside of the time frame in which it is supposed to be fulfilled. I can't accept that.

, most of the NT prophecy is coming to fruition now. Not 1936 yrs ago.
Could you just give me one undisputed fulfillment of NT prophecy in the last 10 years? Could you do it for the last 100 years? I have heard lots of claims but as yet not one single example, as far as I can tell, that can be considered the fulfillment of prophecy.

[Dane Gjesdal]

Dane, Could explain why these are joined at the hip? What are the factors of tribulation thought that cannot be separated from dispensational thought? .

Hi Dale, I too see the Word as precious and black and white as you. It was that kind of thinking that made me step back when I started studying past the surface level of this eschatology and finding some absurdities that one has to come to if you follow their thoughts all the way through. For example the rebuilding of the temple to offer sacrifices. This to me was the straw that broke my back. God made sure that they would not offer any more sacrifices almost 2000 years ago, yet it is the Christians today that want the temple rebuilt (crazy). They quote OT prophecies where the Jews are still in the sacrificial system in their fulfillment but the offerings will be in the name of Jesus. This is absurd and in my opinion close the false doctrine.

If the Christians go through the 7 year trib who is to say when the first day of the 7 year trib starts? Do we have someone who speaks ex-cathedra to wave the green flag?

Can Jesus return anytime? Not if the pre-tribs are right because I was in Israel last year and there is nothing ready for a temple to be rebuilt. They are to be offering sacrifices in the temple shortly after the trib begins. The first three years are to be peaceful, if the secular nation of Israel builds a temple, if the tribulation begins tomorrow; I wonder how much peace there will be in the Middle East? Sounds like the 7 years begins with a bang and a world war.

Plus, If Jesus returns in the middle of the trib or at the end, then Jesus cannot return anytime? I have a problem with that thinking. What if one is wrong about their trib model; how many people will not be ready if Jesus returns this week? Oh, he can’t.

All good stuff and I will respond later when I have more time, but while I do this look into Ray Summers' book, "Worthy is the Lamb", this is an exegetical walk through of the book of Revelation. Keep in mind that great minds for 1700 years have read those verses and only in the last 150 years have those verses had their meanings change. (and only after Darby's interpretation of is daughter's dream of multiple dispensations, that intern spawned the Jehovah Witnesses and other cults. Notice how the JW’s are End Time nuts)

If it's of any interest, my understanding is that Calvinism was a-millennial until the dispensational movement. There is also an a-millennial preterest movement among some Calvinists that claim that the prophecies have already been fulfilled. Obviously, all of us Arminians as well as the vast majority of evangelical Calvinists would have a problem with the idea that the resurrection is past. David Cash

The preterest believe in a future resurrection as far as I know. But they do see that there is a “first” spiritual resurrection (salvation) where we are made “alive” from the dead in Christ, for the “second death” has no power over those who are in Christ. The second resurrection is glorification.

There was no such thing as a Pre-Millennial view as we have today before Darby time so all theologians from the early church fathers till the mid 1800’s were either A-millennial or post-millennial. Once Darby came along (Hard Core Calvinist) this dragged many Calvinist with him. There is some in the Reformed Church (Calvinist-preterests) who hold to a hard fast approach to scripture and have not liked what Darby has done. The Arminians IMO have bought into this new theology and do not realize how dispensational (Calvinistic) the Trib and Millennial views are. For example, remember when Pat Robertson (dispensationalist) ran for President? He was asked if the Jews are going to heaven. He said that God is going to deal with them separately (tribulation) now and in the future. They teach that Israel is still in existence and that they are “set-aside” (not “cut off” as Romans says) and will be brought back and dealt with by God (during the tribulation) and “so all Israel will be saved”. Except, most of Israel (Jews) will not repent so how then does this differ from the Jews of 35 AD - I have no idea. So, “ALL ISRAEL” is not really “ALL ISRAEL”, so all Israel is not saved. Romans 9:27-28 says that only a “remnant” will be saved (do you know how small a remnant is?), and yes this is a text that the tribulationists believe will be fulfilled at the end of the 7 years. (go figure)

There are tons of unanswered questions about this latest end times stuff that needs attention, like the multiple judgments and multiple resurrections with glorified bodies coexisting with natural bodies and so on.

Stay tuned, this is fun stuff.

[Dane Gjesdal]

Dane, Could explain why these are joined at the hip? What are the factors of tribulation thought that cannot be separated from dispensational thought? .

Dale thanks for this dialogue. This will stretch both of us. Anything to get us into His word is good. I went to high school with a Cozby, a great guy.

The very reason why there is a tribulation theology is because of Dispensationalism. They had to come up with a time where God has to finish unfinished business of the “Abrahamic Dispensation”. The tribulation, as they say, has nothing to do with the church (they say that the church is not even mentioned after chapter 4). It is predominantly a Jewish book for the Jewish people. The “Church Age” (dispensation) was overlooked and is never prophesied about in the OT. The Church as the dispensationalist say is a parenthesis (Church), or as I say, A predestined afterthought of God to reach the world because the Jews dropped the ball. God then pulls out the church (trib) or not and deals with the Jews in the last 7 years to get them saved, and have them except Jesus as their Lord. (This is all Calvinism) God’s decretive will is to save Israel (The elect) and there is no free will but God’s “irresistible grace” saves them. I find that all through the OT and NT God always gives a choice, even to Israel, as John the Baptist said to the leaders of Israel, (Luke 3:8) “I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.”


"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.” (not fulfilled in any time of history.)

“All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast (not fulfilled in history) - all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." .

I am not sure you have to say this is a for-telling of the future but a passage that is describing the world then and now. The devil has been given power because of sin. Those who do not know God are “under the control” of Satan. There are times and seasons that Satan has moved and deceived (Rome, Dark Ages, WWI & WWII) the nations of this world.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

To say this verse is not fulfilled is to deny I John 5:19. You cannot serve two masters. You either bow down to Satan and his system or God. To say this did not apply to the seven churches under horrible persecution during this time is to make this letter from John to whom he wrote it to irrelevant.

This is what I did one night. I sat down after studying the OT and early church history and put myself in the place of those early Christians under persecution as if I just lost my Dad because he was dragged away and killed for not taking the mark (hailing Cesar as God) and saw if this great letter from John could minister to my heart. WOW did the letter of Revelation come alive.


where do we place these prophecies? Unfullfilled, fulfilled or only symbolic and cannot be taken as prophecy?

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. (Unfulfilled?) .

There is cause to make people follow Satan, or Rome, and its authority. Rome never asked for permission to do anything. People followed Rome and submitted to their authority or you did no commerce. (you could not buy or sell) They would siege any nation and destroy it if it did not submit. Just watch the History Channel and learn about Rome and its tactics.


A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Rev 14: 9-12

Since the first two are as yet unfulfilled then this last one is also unfulfilled as it deals with the same world leader or system. So do we take this literally or is the Angel only speaking figuratively? Do you belive in hell? Or is it just figurative as well? .

Revelation 14:9-12
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. NASU



Could you address Revelation 14:9-10 then? How do you reconcile your belief in the mark being meaningless to salvation or condemnation when the scripture seems very clear on this issue? “Oops sorry didn’t mean to take the Mark. Just a moment of weakness just before your coming” just doesn’t seem to cut it with me. I am a black and white thinker when it comes to God and his judgement. Left hand, right hand, heaven or hell, in the book or not. .

In short, anyone who bows their knee to Baal will fall under God’s wrath. It has been this way from the beginning of time till now. You bow your knew to Baal, Rome, USA or conform to this World’s System and you persist in your depravity till death you will die in your sin. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. (Heb 11:26-30)


Doesn’t have to be in Revelation to be future prophecy. There are plenty of unfulfilled
prophecies in the OT. This is just one example. .

Show me an unfulfilled prophecy in the OT.
You go on to ask many questions you are already convinced of the answer. You seem to believe that all the prophecy has already been fulfilled related to the tribulation during the Roman persecutions. .

Not all, but who is to say what prophecies are fulfilled and what ones are not? Are there Apostles today to say what ones are fulfilled? Can we use history and see things that have taken place and form an opinion? I do not say that what I believe is inerrant and should be canonized. But when the Roman Emperor Caligula issued a Decree to set a statue of himself up in the Temple in 40 AD and marches an army all the way from Rome with his statue right onto to Temple mount, and this is a warning given by Jesus to the Christians to flee to the mountains, and that is exactly what happened as all the Christians fled. (except a small sect called Nazarenes who believed in keeping the law, Paul had some problems with them, they all died in 70 AD) All this was recorded by the jewish historian Josephus. Why do I want to burry my head in the sand and say this did not happen exactly the way Jesus said it would. This is a fact of history, and it “literally” happened. I am literalist?

I don’t. Although I respect JW and JA as great church leaders, they are not the definitive answer to eschatology. I am firmly convinced after many years of study that we have a lot of prophecy waiting to be fulfilled in the end time as a testament to Jesus Christ’s 2nd coming. Just like we see with his firtst coming. While some scripture can be seen as addressing the early church, most of the NT prophecy is coming to fruition now. Not 1936 yrs ago.

I believe in prophecy. But do a study on prophecy. Some prophecy was unknown until it was fulfilled. The reason for prophecy was to validate and give authority and assurance and proof. Today I see people using Revelation as a crystal ball like a sear. They say when Israel became a nation that that was a fulfillment of prophecy. Really? Who says? And show me chapter and verse? As some say, “Show me the money”, I say, “Show me the prophecy?”

Is Jesus returning? YES, and you better be ready now, this moment, and not seven years from now, and do not expect a second chance after he returns.

[Dale Cozby]

Dane, I thank you for your thoughtful posts.. The funny thing about this particular topic is the more you talk about it, the less you can be sure of.:basic03 AND the broader the posts become as you discuss it.

I am thankful our church founders had the wisdom to not overly burden this issue in our statement of beliefs. They had the wisdom to not be swayed into adding to doctrine things that are not neccessary to salvation and Christian living.

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will come again; that we who are alive at His coming shall not precede them that are asleep in Christ Jesus; but that, if we are abiding in Him, we shall be caught up with the risen saints to meet the Lord in the air, so that we shall ever be with the Lord.
We believe in the resurrection of the dead, that the bodies both of the just and of the unjust shall be raised to life and united with their spirits-"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
We believe in future judgment in which every person shall appear before God to be judged according to his or her deeds in this life.
We believe that glorious and everlasting life is assured to all who savingly believe in, and obediently follow, Jesus Christ our Lord; and that the finally impenitent shall suffer eternally in hell.

Roland, I am not "locked in" to any one belief about these prophecies. I am always willing to consider new information and information that has been hashed and rehashed. While I may be more open to the idea of a defined period of trial before the second coming than some here, In the end it isn't whether or not we had our eschatology right, but were we ready when He comes back or we go to meet Him? In the meantime, we need to make sure this scripture is being fulfilled by us: this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

[David Cash]

The preterest believe in a future resurrection as far as I know. But they do see that there is a “first” spiritual resurrection (salvation) where we are made “alive” from the dead in Christ, for the “second death” has no power over those who are in Christ. The second resurrection is glorification.

You could be right. My understanding was that there is a full preterist position that sees the resurrection as past or totally spiritual and considers us to be in the final state now. (Miserable thought as well as being totally unscriptural.)

I appreciate your approach to this subject, Dane. There are Scriptural arguments against just about any position we could take, and Scriptural arguments for most of the ones that are commonly taken.

When it ceases to be fun is when we start getting paranoid. My mother, as a young girl, struggled with depression because of what she calls the "doom and gloom" prophecy teaching that was common in the holiness denomination she grew up in. She's a firm pretribulationist today, and I'm happy for her, even if I personally have moved closer to a pre-Darby approach. (Although, it isn't particularly gloomy either!) We do our youth a great disservice if we cause them to lose sight of Christ's return in a sea of scary predictions.

David Cash

[Roland Hearn]

Roland, I am not "locked in" to any one belief about these prophecies. I am always willing to consider new information and information that has been hashed and rehashed. While I may be more open to the idea of a defined period of trial before the second coming than some here, In the end it isn't whether or not we had our eschatology right, but were we ready when He comes back or we go to meet Him? In the meantime, we need to make sure this scripture is being fulfilled by us: this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Well that will do me. I'm certainly in complete agreement with you on all of this.

[Dane Gjesdal]

You could be right. My understanding was that there is a full preterist position that sees the resurrection as past or totally spiritual and considers us to be in the final state now. (Miserable thought as well as being totally unscriptural.)

WOW, if they teach no resurrection of the dead then that would be a hard teaching to swallow in view of scripture. If this is the final state then we of all people are most miserable.

I appreciate your approach to this subject, Dane. There are Scriptural arguments against just about any position we could take and Scriptural arguments for most of the ones that are commonly taken.

Thank you David for those kind words. I wish I can say that some in my church feel the same. Many people want me to teach Chuck Smith end times stuff. They give me books and tapes (CD’s now) and I smile and listen to them. But I have to come back to the Word. Here is a funny illustration: God the Father and Jesus were having a conversation in heaven while looking at all the charts on Revelation that great minds have come up with. Jesus then asked the Father when he is to return. The Father told him, “As soon as I figure it out I will send you.

What I enjoy is testing all the positions and seeing what ones hold up. In my study I find each position brings me to a place of uncertainty (some more than others). I am at the point that what may very well be true is that we will not know until we get to heaven. Each position has its positives and negatives. I was a pre-mid-post trib (at different times) and pre-millennial and preached it with confidence and fervor and then God kicked me in the spiritual behind. My (Wesleyan) General Superintendent Dr Lee Haines (who ordained me) challenged my thinking, who is himself not convinces that the pre-millennial view is correct, sent me searching scripture without a preconceived bias which caused me to step back and take a good hermeneutical approach to scripture that should include Revelation. Why do we stop good exposition when we hit the book of Revelation? Why do we look at the word “Antichrist” in Revelation, that is a word only John used, and run to other books instead of John’s other letters to understand what he means, when 1st and 2nd John deal with multiple Antichrists?

For me another study is Daniel 9:24-27 and how the dispensationalists take this amazing prophecy and chop it up and take Jesus and the cross right out of it. They put a huge 2000 year gap in a 490 year prophecy, and then claim they are “literalists”. How many people including ministers have looked at Daniel 9:24-27? So many people just accept the dispensational view without a critical eye. Now, I will not say I have the final answer on it but at least we need to ask questions. When I dove into Daniel 9:24-29 I got so excited about the cross and Jesus and the other prophecies in Daniel and became so blessed because God sent his Son into this world in the fullness of time.

What I discovered was a brand new world and I felt robbed because I was taught “managed eschatology” and was never given other biblical views.


When it ceases to be fun is when we start getting paranoid. My mother, as a young girl, struggled with depression because of what she calls the "doom and gloom" prophecy teaching that was common in the holiness denomination she grew up in. She's a firm pretribulationist today, and I'm happy for her, even if I personally have moved closer to a pre-Darby approach. (Although, it isn't particularly gloomy either!) We do our youth a great disservice if we cause them to lose sight of Christ's return in a sea of scary predictions. David Cash

I showed our youth group the “Omega Code” and the “Left Behind” series. I explained that this was one theory of end times and that they need to be ready. If God can get a hold of them and make them think then so be it. I am extremely practical. Lets face it, people are meeting their maker by the millions everyday, the question is…are they ready?

[Dane Gjesdal]

Dane, I thank you for your thoughtful posts.. The funny thing about this particular topic is the more you talk about it, the less you can be sure of.:basic03 AND the broader the posts become as you discuss it.

I would be inclined to discus a narrower part. I was just throwing you a bone.:basic03

I am thankful our church founders had the wisdom to not overly burden this issue in our statement of beliefs. They had the wisdom to not be swayed into adding to doctrine things that are not neccessary to salvation and Christian living.

I totally agree. The Wesleyan Church has taken the same stand. Our denomination lets us “have a brain” to think for ourselves about these things. I think it is good to discus these positions because it makes us think about our views to see if what we really believe is really in the scriptures.

Roland, I am not "locked in" to any one belief about these prophecies. I am always willing to consider new information and information that has been hashed and rehashed. While I may be more open to the idea of a defined period of trial before the second coming than some here, In the end it isn't whether or not we had our eschatology right, but were we ready when He comes back or we go to meet Him? In the meantime, we need to make sure this scripture is being fulfilled by us:

I am in agreement with you on this. Wesley was a Post-Millennial thinker, but look at what he saw? He believed that he was going to usher in the kingdom of God because things where be getting better and better. Then WWI and WWII came along and that view fell by the way side. Things are not getting better and better. I think there will be trials and tribulations before Christ returns. It was not easy for the early Christians and I do not think it will be easy before he returns. Judgment will begin with the house of God.


this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

This may have been fulfilled in the time of Paul. It also may be a verse for us as well.

The gospel had reached the known world at that time. Once it did Jerusalem was destroyed as Adam Clark writes. “When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.” This is what may have been Jesus’ point in context to history and in context to Matthew 24. For what does it mean for the Gospel to reach the whole world? Does it mean that every ear, or every nation? Does it need to be every people group in the same time frame? If it is every people/nation then that has been done, for at one point in every culture there has been the gospel preached. The last people to be reached with the gospel were the Scandinavians.

Colossians 1:5-6
6 …All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth. ..23…This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Why was this important? Because it was the tolerance of the Jews by Rome that helped spread the Gospel. (Where did Paul go first? The Jewish Synagogues), But the Jews wore out their welcome with Rome and in 70 AD everything was destroyed. Then the end came. (Hebrews 8:13) “what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.”

[Roland Hearn]

I am in agreement with you on this. Wesley was a Post-Millennial thinker, but look at what he saw? He believed that he was going to usher in the kingdom of God because things where be getting better and better. Then WWI and WWII came along and that view fell by the way side. Things are not getting better and better. I think there will be trials and tribulations before Christ returns. It was not easy for the early Christians and I do not think it will be easy before he returns. Judgment will begin with the house of God.

While Pan Millennialism isn't in fact a genuine theological position, it is kind of a cute phrase. I certainly am not a pre-millennialist which means I probably am "Post" or "A" and I actually find the latter more sustainable. I recognize your linking of millennial perspectives with human history as completely appropriate. I think the American civil war played a major role in the formation of pre-millennialism as the primary evangelical view point. I think that connection makes all of the views suspect to some degree. A faith that is built upon our circumstances and not upon revelation is a little feeble. For that reason I think the whole discussion only has merit as it reflects on our other understandings of God and the universe.
However Dane, I have got to say that I think the truth is the world is getting a better and better place to live in. Not always in individual locations but as a whole. There is better health, better justice systems, greater respect for the worth of individuals, greater educational opportunities and greater prosperity than at any time in history. Most of the "rights" movements while almost universally inappropriate applications of justice stem from an increasing desire to make certain that there are less and less down trodden in the world. That says something about our global conscience. While there is war in Iraq it probably more than anything else reflects the willingness for restraint that is prevalent in today's culture that has never been there before. Could you imagine any world power, given the perceived circumstances of 911 and following, show such willingness to restrain their operations and receive as much flak for excess in operations, as the US has done, at any time in human history? It just wouldn't happen before today.
In fact the world is socially evolving into a better and better place and that is because of the grace of God. There is lots that needs changing and lots of problems but I would rather be working class today than a king 150 years ago.

[Dane Gjesdal]

While Pan Millennialism isn't in fact a genuine theological position, it is kind of a cute phrase. .

WHAT! Are you telling me Pan-Millennialism is not a theological position? Man, what am I to do now? I thought it came from the Greek word “pantos” which means to – “unfold” or “spread out” or “to discover as it unfolds” and always rendered in the future tense. :fav18


I certainly am not a pre-millennialist which means I probably am "Post" or "A" and I actually find the latter more sustainable. I recognize you’re linking of millennial perspectives with human history as completely appropriate. I think the American civil war played a major role in the formation of pre-millennialism as the primary evangelical view point. I think that connection makes all of the views suspect to some degree. A faith that is built upon our circumstances and not upon revelation is a little feeble. For that reason I think the whole discussion only has merit as it reflects on our other understandings of God and the universe. .

What do you mean by the “universe”?

However Dane, I have got to say that I think the truth is the world is getting a better and better place to live in. Not always in individual locations but as a whole

Like you said - I guess that depends where you live. I do understand your point and to some extent I share it. This world is a better place to be compared to the dark ages, and under the tyranny of Dictators and Kings. Just look at WWII. WOW what a mess, and that was only 60+ years ago. It is God’s grace that we are where we are today, and Orpa, or Opra should not get the credit. :basic05

There is better health, better justice systems, greater respect for the worth of individuals, greater educational opportunities and greater prosperity than at any time in history. Most of the "rights" movements while almost universally inappropriate applications of justice stem from an increasing desire to make certain that there are less and less down trodden in the world. That says something about our global conscience. …In fact the world is socially evolving into a better and better place and that is because of the grace of God… There is lots that needs changing and lots of problems but I would rather be working class today than a king 150 years ago.

Yes, and for us not to recognize this is to not give praise to God. Can we all sing the Doxology?

A side note: Or maybe this should be on another thread, but it does fit the study of the beast/ Anti-Christ. What is your understanding of Daniel 9:24-27?

[Roland Hearn]

WHAT! Are you telling me Pan-Millennialism is not a theological position? Man, what am I to do now? I thought it came from the Greek word “pantos” which means to – “unfold” or “spread out” or “to discover as it unfolds” and always rendered in the future tense. :fav18
:) We use the phrase so often it may as well be a legitimized position, I certainly hold with the sentiment. Of course my fear was that it didn't have so much do with "pantos" as the Greek god Pan and that was leading me into all sorts of uncertainties.



What do you mean by the “universe”?
Basically everything. There is a lot wrapped up in an individual's 'world' view and how they see themselves that is reflected in the eschatological positions a person takes. So rather than spell all that out I said "universe" to represent a totality of perspective.


Like you said - I guess that depends where you live. I do understand your point and to some extent I share it. This world is a better place to be compared to the dark ages, and under the tyranny of Dictators and Kings. Just look at WWII. WOW what a mess, and that was only 60+ years ago. It is God’s grace that we are where we are today, and Orpa, or Opra should not get the credit. :basic05

It is hard to talk about tribulation as a future event in a meaningful way to a person having his family shot by a genocidal dictator. I'm not sure how you would convince protestant Christians during the Inquisition that tribulation was yet to come. Our individual circumstances are definitely going to impact how we see the world as a good or bad place but the empirical evidence suggests that the world is getting better and better which is in direct contradiction to dispensational theology.


Yes, and for us not to recognize this is to not give praise to God. Can we all sing the Doxology?

Or maybe just some trite contemporary praise song. :basic03


A side note: Or maybe this should be on another thread, but it does fit the study of the beast/ Anti-Christ. What is your understanding of Daniel 9:24-27?

Let me address that at the next opportunity, I'm at work now and I need to think about the post.

[Dale Cozby]

Help me to understand this:

Do you believe Jesus has returned? If not then the prophecies aren't all fulfilled right? Where does one draw the line in scriptures to be able to tell what has and has not been fulfilled?

example: Mark 13. Part of this appears to meet the Roman criteria for fulfillment in 70 A.D. but Jesus did not return then right? IF we are to say this scripture is fulfilled then these verses in the middle of it would also be fulfilled:
verse 24-27: " "But in those days, following that distress, "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'(see also: Rev 6:12) At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. So did he or did he not come back in 70 A.D.?

If not then why would these verses be included in a prophecy about 70 A.D.? I am just wondering. Why the jump? Or could this deal with both the roman fulfillment and the endtime fulfillment?

If this place is getting better and better then what will the world be like when Jesus returns? Will we finally get it all right and live in harmony? or will mankind as a whole finally screw it up so bad that if he didn't we would destroy ourselves?

I am having a hard time buying into the world is getting better and better idea. What I see is that mankind is getting more like it was in the time of Noah(Gen 6). It is my understanding that when he comes he will destroy the world by fire(2 Peter 3:10; Rev 8:7). why would he do that if the place was getting better? OR is all this stuff just figurative? Is he Not going to use real fire or a real hell for punishment everlasting?

I kinda would like to know what you guys think of this.

[Randy Wise]

I look for no controversies with this just floating the question that anyone who takes the mark of the beast irrevocably lost or is saving faith and repentance still possible? After all, there are over six billion people on Earth and where will all the Tribulation believers come from? Only those who accept mark or those also who repent? For that matter is repentance still possible for those who take the mark up to the time that Christ returns and it is too late to change your mind then? Mass repentance seems to be not happening yet God continues to evangelise people, calling them to repent throughout the Tribulation?


When dealing with judgements that have eternal consequences I think it would be best to believe what is written in the word will happen as stated by God as Jesus is our judge not us and I wouldn't want to give any false sense of hope to anyone. I did note the Angel was shouting the message about those who receive the mark of the beast that their place will be the lake of burning fire.

My two cents worth

Randy

[Roland Hearn]

Help me to understand this:

Do you believe Jesus has returned? If not then the prophecies aren't all fulfilled right? Where does one draw the line in scriptures to be able to tell what has and has not been fulfilled?

example: Mark 13. Part of this appears to meet the Roman criteria for fulfillment in 70 A.D. but Jesus did not return then right? IF we are to say this scripture is fulfilled then these verses in the middle of it would also be fulfilled:
verse 24-27: " "But in those days, following that distress, "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'(see also: Rev 6:12) At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. So did he or did he not come back in 70 A.D.?

If not then why would these verses be included in a prophecy about 70 A.D.? I am just wondering. Why the jump? Or could this deal with both the roman fulfillment and the endtime fulfillment?

If this place is getting better and better then what will the world be like when Jesus returns? Will we finally get it all right and live in harmony? or will mankind as a whole finally screw it up so bad that if he didn't we would destroy ourselves?

I am having a hard time buying into the world is getting better and better idea. What I see is that mankind is getting more like it was in the time of Noah(Gen 6). It is my understanding that when he comes he will destroy the world by fire(2 Peter 3:10; Rev 8:7). why would he do that if the place was getting better? OR is all this stuff just figurative? Is he Not going to use real fire or a real hell for punishment everlasting?

I kinda would like to know what you guys think of this.

Dale,
I believe that when Christ comes he will come as a thief in the night, it will be a surprise but the whole world will know and the end will be immediate. I think that is the only way to read the prophecy of his coming. I don't think prophecy has to be literal to have significance and I do think the majority of prophecy that Jesus was talking about had to do with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. I think the way is clear for him to come back at any time.
The world is getting better and better you only have to look at social history to see that. You couldn't imagine the horrors of inhumanity and evil that have happened in times gone by. For goodness sake Hitler murdered six million Jews and he was the head representative of a first world nation. That will never happen again. My children will grow up and get a good education, live in wealth and health and have a good chance of living to the age of 120-130 years old.
Nations use to go off to war where massive portions of the population would be slaughtered in barbaric fights while many more times the battle casualties would die from disease. Ask yourself if the Civil War could ever happen again and look at the number of casualties that were involved in that conflict.
Please don't think I am suggesting that the world is altogether good, there is evil everywhere, but the notion that things are worse today then they ever have been is just not supportable. And that condition is pretty important to the whole pre-millennial dispensational theology.
I believe that the grace of God actually works. I believe that God is desperate to bring His children to Himself. I do not have a worked out theology about how all of the end will fit together I simply believe that when Christ returns that will in fact be the end of what we know as the world today.

[Roland Hearn]

A side note: Or maybe this should be on another thread, but it does fit the study of the beast/ Anti-Christ. What is your understanding of Daniel 9:24-27?
A long time ago I decided that there was very little value in trying to be to specific about prophecy and its fulfillment. I have read some pretty obscure assertions about this passage that seemed interesting at the time but in time proved ridiculous. I'm actually a little reluctant to want the time frames expressed in the passage to be reflective of anything specific. I think most people find the times work well to be talking about the rebuilding of the temple, the existence of a Jewish state and the coming of the Messiah. The usual pre-millennial view is to separate the last week out and make it about the tribulation and it is from here you get the pre, mid and post trib views. Why it is necessary to separate the last week from the other 69 weeks in order that the prophecy be fulfilled and they say that is good eschatology is beyond me. I would rather hold the established position that if there is a need for the weeks to reflect actual events the last week is actually reflective of the totality of Jesus ministry including John the Baptist's time of "calling in the wilderness." The abomination of desolation in the temple can just as easily refer to the death of Christ or the sacrifice of a pig in the temple prior to its destruction.
Having said all that I don't hold to any of it categorically and won't defend it. I actually think, "mmm that's interesting I wonder what that means. Oh well I guess I'll serve the Lord anyhow."

[Randy Wise]

Help me to understand this:

Do you believe Jesus has returned? If not then the prophecies aren't all fulfilled right? Where does one draw the line in scriptures to be able to tell what has and has not been fulfilled?

example: Mark 13. Part of this appears to meet the Roman criteria for fulfillment in 70 A.D. but Jesus did not return then right? IF we are to say this scripture is fulfilled then these verses in the middle of it would also be fulfilled:
verse 24-27: " "But in those days, following that distress, "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'(see also: Rev 6:12) At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. So did he or did he not come back in 70 A.D.?

If not then why would these verses be included in a prophecy about 70 A.D.? I am just wondering. Why the jump? Or could this deal with both the roman fulfillment and the endtime fulfillment?

If this place is getting better and better then what will the world be like when Jesus returns? Will we finally get it all right and live in harmony? or will mankind as a whole finally screw it up so bad that if he didn't we would destroy ourselves?

I am having a hard time buying into the world is getting better and better idea. What I see is that mankind is getting more like it was in the time of Noah(Gen 6). It is my understanding that when he comes he will destroy the world by fire(2 Peter 3:10; Rev 8:7). why would he do that if the place was getting better? OR is all this stuff just figurative? Is he Not going to use real fire or a real hell for punishment everlasting?

I kinda would like to know what you guys think of this.

Roland wrote
I believe that when Christ comes he will come as a thief in the night, it will be a surprise but the whole world will know and the end will be immediate

I agree with Rolands statement above as thats what I find in the scriptures. That last day is when the door will be shut. However we can state with confidence from what is written in the scriptures what must take place prior to Christ's return. If you note the two witnesses in Rev 11 will testify to the whole world for 1260 days. At the end of their testimony the beast will kill them. The beasts reign is 42 months. That total time period is about 7 years. These two witness cannot be missed. The bowl judgements are the judgements that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkeness and they are also the last of Gods judgements. Note the timming of the Lords return Rev 16:15 Behold I come like a thief... Daniel 12 At that time.. Zech 14:6-8 On that Day...

Randy

[Dale Cozby]

Roland, So If I am reading you right you believe that mankind is getting better and better until the day Jesus returns.

And you base this on the fact that in the last 50 years we haven't had a world war with a Hitler like persona or a civil war in an industrialized nation?

You don't think the AIDS epidemic in africa is getting better do you? How about human rights in China?
Freedom of religion or speech in muslim countries?
You don't think global nuclear and/or biological terrorism couldn't plunge the world into a nightmarish police state almost over night? We are well on our way there now.

I see the USA as going down hill fast. I see it becoming more like Israel was in the days of Jeremiah. I see an EU that is closer to that level of self-destruction than most care to realize. 25% of people in the US go to church each week. that is down from 37% in 2000 and 43% in 1990. Why? In the EU I read it was like 6% with the UK being the best at like 15% this year. Why?
Sure the church is making great gains in parts of the world but I also see a great apostasy taking place.

Now, if we are talking global corporate profits things are going very well. If we are talking about the ease of living for the well off and wealthy, yes things are going well there too. But if we are talking about the morality of people that is another story.
And if we are talking about the condition of mens hearts, man is still the same as he was at Jesus' first coming, sinful and selfish to the core. The difference is we have the hope of the resurrection in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice on the cross.

Now concerning the coming of Jesus as a thief. Absolutely. There is no doubt His return will be quick and at a day and hour unknown. Scriptures clearly repeat this over and over.

[Monty Stewart]

Roland, So If I am reading you right you believe that mankind is getting better and better until the day Jesus returns.

That's not just Roland theology, that's Pauline theology. God is moving creation, which is not bad, toward a grand eschatos.

[Roland Hearn]

Roland, So If I am reading you right you believe that mankind is getting better and better until the day Jesus returns.

Yup in every area where you look at empirical evidence rather than sensationalized anecdotal media type reports. But don't read me as saying that about humanity's spiritual condition, we are not needing a savior less.


And you base this on the fact that in the last 50 years we haven't had a world war with a Hitler like persona or a civil war in an industrialized nation?

Nope that is one of the things but not exhaustive of the evidence. The truth it is practically impossible in the world today for such a figure to rise in a developed nation - Europe, North America, Southern Oceania. I spoke of Hitler and the Civil war as something accessible in terms of relatively short history to show how far we have come. The world is simply a better place than at any time in human history.


You don't think the AIDS epidemic in africa is getting better do you?

As bad as AIDS is we will be on top of it in the next 25 years and the Bubonic plague killed up to 75% of the population is some places and killed 33% of the entire population of Europe. It isn't a comparison from a world view perspective. We know that eventually we will eliminate AIDS, for 300 years people feared the next out break of the black death.


How about human rights in China?


Absolutely terrible. China, however, will be the next great democracy and probably rank as the most significant nation in the world by the end of this century. One more evidence of the evolution of which I speak. When it becomes a democracy, which it will, the thronging masses of Christians already there will swell through the streets praising God.


Freedom of religion or speech in muslim countries?

Yup another terrible thing. I never said it was good everywhere I just said there is visible progression. You may want to recall that the Muslim empire was the most powerful influence in the world at one time and stretched over three continents. There was once a genuine fear that the Ottoman Empire would control most of Europe.
Today we have a genuine possibility of a real democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan and who knows where that will lead. In terms of the Muslim question better to live in the 21st century than the 15th.


You don't think global nuclear and/or biological terrorism couldn't plunge the world into a nightmarish police state almost over night? We are well on our way there now.


No I don't and I think to live with that fear is as real as living with the fear of Martian invasion. I grew up in the 70's where we use to talk about hiding under our desks in the case of nuclear attack and visualized what it would be like to watch mushroom clouds out the school window. We were going to run out of oil by 1978, the world was going to be torn apart by planetary alignment in 1982, we would be consumed by the third world war on the anniversary of Israel's establishment in 1988 when Russia would rise up as the great Magog and swoop down on Israel. You can only go to that well so many times before you realize it is completely empty and has been for some time.


I see the USA as going down hill fast.


Why? You don't think frontier lawlessness was a real issue, you don't think slavery was a problem, you don't think the Civil War was dark days? The US is only going down hill if you were living on a very nice hill, if you were living in the valley you probably feel like it has come up a little.


I see it becoming more like Israel was in the days of Jeremiah.

Well that is certainly the rhetoric but I haven't yet heard God call the US his chosen people. That may be more about nationalism than actual fact.



I see an EU that is closer to that level of self-destruction than most care to realize.
In what real way that is beyond simple anecdotal perspectives. Problems sure, can political structures come undone, of course but that doesn't forbid the possibility of things getting better. The signing of the Magna Carta was seen as the beginning of the end for some but it was probably a pretty good thing overall.


25% of people in the US go to church each week. that is down from 37% in 2000 and 43% in 1990. Why? In the EU I read it was like 6% with the UK being the best at like 15% this year. Why?

All that says is we are doing a pretty bad job at being the church in an environment where the grace of God is spawning all sorts of opportunities. We need to simply find better ways of telling the greatest story ever told.

Sure the church is making great gains in parts of the world but I also see a great apostasy taking place.
I wonder if your glass is half empty right now.


Now, if we are talking global corporate profits things are going very well. If we are talking about the ease of living for the well off and wealthy, yes things are going well there too.
Aghh yes the ancient evil of providing families with food and clothing, I know it is an awful thing.
Dale you are really fooling yourself if you think that wealthy corporations have not made life better for those that work for them. Have a look around your home right now and see the level of luxury you live in in comparison to your grand father. While there are filthy stinking rich people, more than ever in human history which probably suggests it is easier to get there (an indication of that of which I write), and we may feel like we have been cheated by life in comparison, the poorest of people today live better than poor people have at any time in history when you are talking about the western world. The same level of poverty may exist in many countries but it is not worse than before. The number of countries with rising levels of wealth is increasing - that is a good thing.


But if we are talking about the morality of people that is another story.
And if we are talking about the condition of mens hearts, man is still the same as he was at Jesus' first coming, sinful and selfish to the core. The difference is we have the hope of the resurrection in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice on the cross.

Morality has always been an issue, people are not more immoral today than they have been at other times. Nothing I say suggests we need a savior less, we need him just as much.


Now concerning the coming of Jesus as a thief. Absolutely. There is no doubt His return will be quick and at a day and hour unknown. Scriptures clearly repeat this over and over.
And yet it seems that it needs to happen twice, once after some very predictable world events to gather his people and then exactly 3 and a half years later or maybe seven years later but definitely a predictable time frame. So we have his second coming and then his third and then oh yes his fourth coming after the thousand years.
Let me apologize for my sarcasm in advance but that is why I have never been able to accept the ideas of pre-millennialism and tribulation theology, it is all about predicting the time of his coming and coming and coming.

[Hans Deventer]

That's not just Roland theology, that's Pauline theology. God is moving creation, which is not bad, toward a grand eschatos.

I've always had problems with that idea and in fact, I still do. Because I don't see it. I see no improvement for the last 2000 years regarding morality, I don't see people being more like Jesus now than 2000 years ago.

So if this is still true, and in 2000 years no change for the better is distinguishable, then we won't see the Lord return for another 20.000 years at least.

Now for the record, I believe in what God's grace can do in a person with all of my heart. But I also know that people are free (by grace) and God does not force them. That being the case, it means that both heaven and hell are real, and it means that if we have to wait till by the grace of God, we created the Kingdom on this earth, we'll never see it.

[Roland Hearn]

I've always had problems with that idea and in fact, I still do. Because I don't see it. I see no improvement for the last 2000 years regarding morality, I don't see people being more like Jesus now than 2000 years ago.

So if this is still true, and in 2000 years no change for the better is distinguishable, then we won't see the Lord return for another 20.000 years at least.

Now for the record, I believe in what God's grace can do in a person with all of my heart. But I also know that people are free (by grace) and God does not force them. That being the case, it means that both heaven and hell are real, and it means that if we have to wait till by the grace of God, we created the Kingdom on this earth, we'll never see it.

Hans the issue can't ever be about needing a savior less or being more naturally moral. However, it is not possible to look at the world around us and not see the influence of the church for good across the centuries. Are children still working in mines? Is slavery and racism tolerated to the same extent? Is it possible for children to eat well and have an education these days. These are things we take for granted but have not existed in the world until recent years.
I'm not sure how you see the essential issue of humanity apart from the grace of God needing to create His kingdom on earth. That certainly isn't what I am saying. I do believe however that God's grace will increasingly impact the whole of humanity.

[Dale Cozby]

Roland, I am not a pre-trib person. I also only believe that Jesus will come back as he said one time. Like a thief, as the lightening flashes in the sky, etc.... everyone will know it when it happens. This thread is about exploring eschatology issues so I am throwing out stuff at you. Be sarcastic if you like. I will too. "Left-Behind" is silly and is not Biblical.

I do see prophecies as not having been all fulfilled. The Lion has not laid down with the Lamb yet. But trying to put all this stuff into a perfect timeline is just silly.

All of this stuff is to help us have faith and hope. To make us stay ready for meeting Jesus.

But I still belive that the current western culture has peaked and is sliding the wrong way, morally, and eventually economically and politcally. Will it hit bottom? No, but it won't be the beacon it once was to the world. I think this is also evident within our denomination as we see the rest of the world take a more prominent place within the CoN.

People are basically the same as they always have been. Technology is the single greatest improvement driving all our quality of life gains. Governmental systems come and go. Being a democracy is a delicate balance held in place by the morality of the people. When that morality fails so does the freedom the people enjoy within that democracy. As morality wanes in the west we will see us realign with a less free world system.

Jesus said that people would be doing the same stuff we have always done right up til he comes back. "Like the days of Noah"

20 yrs or 20,000 years from now, man will still have the same problems with sin and immorality. "Til Jesus comes back."as the saying goes.

Now. Does anyone know about the Muslim Prohpecies concerning the end?
About the coming Mahdi? Just rambling endtime thoughts.:basic03

[Dane Gjesdal]

Help me to understand this:

Do you believe Jesus has returned? If not then the prophecies aren't all fulfilled right? Where does one draw the line in scriptures to be able to tell what has and has not been fulfilled?

example: Mark 13. Part of this appears to meet the Roman criteria for fulfillment in 70 A.D. but Jesus did not return then right? IF we are to say this scripture is fulfilled then these verses in the middle of it would also be fulfilled: verse 24-27: " "But in those days, following that distress, "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'(see also: Rev 6:12) At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. So did he or did he not come back in 70 A.D.?

Many believe that Christ’s Kingdom came and separated itself from the OT “order” on 70 AD for not one sacrifice has been offered in almost 2000 years from this date. Hebrews 8:13 “By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” This “old order” was not gone at the time that Hebrews was written. The transition from the OT to the NT had some overlap. Not for salvation of course, it has always been by faith from first to last, but God in his great patience sent the message first to the Jew and and they had 3.5+3.5 years to avoid God's judgment (3.5 years- Jesus ministry – the cross - 3.5 years of ministry to only Jews = 7 years; with the judgment coming at 70AD). The sole outreach to the Jew ended and at the end of the 7 years. From the time of Steven’s great message and martyrdom (end of the 70th week) the Gospel message began to go to the Geniles.

How do you interpret Matthew 16:27-28 literally? - as you do Mark 13:24-27?

Matthew 16:27-28
28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." NIV

This is not the Holy Spirit coming. That interpretation makes the “some” and “death” part meaningless.

Matthew 24:30
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

This is hard to understand, but from a Middle Eastern cultural understanding, they say that when the vengeance of a King would come he came not “from the sky”, but like a cloud “towards” the cities that were going to be destroyed (Jerusalem). God came to judge Jerusalem (Sodom & Egypt - Rev 11:8) and those who rejected his son. From that day on the gospel spread like a wild fire. (Read Adam Clark)


If not then why would these verses be included in a prophecy about 70 A.D.? I am just wondering. Why the jump? Or could this deal with both the roman fulfillment and the endtime fulfillment?

I believe this: This can have a double fulfillment as the prophecies of the OT had a double fulfillment. Here is the difficulty. We have no way to know what prophecies will have a future fulfillment and what one will not. Look at Paul when he quotes the OT and gives a NT fulfillment. He pulls out quotes from the OT that if you look at the whole text it does not apply but only what Paul quotes. Look at the context of some of the passages quoted about Jesus as the messiah. If you were alive in the OT and taught that the whole context of the verses will be fulfilled by Jesus you would come up with some really strange Models of Christ first advent.

Case in Point -

Micah 5:1-6

Marshal your troops, O city of troops,
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel's ruler
on the cheek with a rod.

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."

3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
5 And he will be their peace.

When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men.
6 They will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrian
when he invades our land
and marches into our borders. NIV

So here if you had an OT Hal Lindsey predicting the place where the Messiah will be born, then after his birth, he will Sheppard his flock, and the Assyrians will invade the land and Jesus will deliver the Jews from the Assyrians.

This has to literally happen because it has to happen exactly as this whole text states. Right? Wrong.

[Dane Gjesdal]

I agree with Rolands statement above as thats what I find in the scriptures. That last day is when the door will be shut. However we can state with confidence from what is written in the scriptures what must take place prior to Christ's return. If you note the two witnesses in Rev 11 will testify to the whole world for 1260 days. At the end of their testimony the beast will kill them. The beasts reign is 42 months. That total time period is about 7 years. These two witness cannot be missed. The bowl judgements are the judgements that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkeness and they are also the last of Gods judgements. Note the timming of the Lords return Rev 16:15 Behold I come like a thief... Daniel 12 At that time.. Zech 14:6-8 On that Day...

This is a well stated Pre-Millennial (dispensational) view, although there is a lot of conjecture.

But 42 months is what? 1260 days is what? Show me in the Word that those days and months are sequential and not in tandem?

For example: What is meant by the two witnesses? The scriptures say that everything must be validated by two or three witnesses. Christ used Himself as a witness to validate who he was and the Father as his 2nd witnesses, (John 8:17-18). The point of this text IMO is not two ambiguous unnamed prophets, but the church (God’s people) and the word (The messenger and the message). The two witnesses, two olive trees, and two lamp stands are symbols for us to try and understand.

IMO to take the 2 witnesses as literal individual people is inconsistent. Are they two olive trees (Lord of the Rings)? Are they two candlesticks (Beauty and the Beast)? Does fire come out of their mouths (Dragon Heart)? As for them being Elijah and Moses is off base IMO because we do not believe in people coming back after death do we? It is “appointed a man once to die.” Do we believe in “reincarnation”?

Witnesses (Greek = Martyr) 2 x = validation and strength of the message
Olive Tree (The Kingdom of God) x 2 = validation and strength of Gods people
Lamp Stand (The church) x 2 = validation and strength of the Church

What is John saying? If you stand up and preach the truth it will cost you your life. The message goes forth (like Moses & Elijah) with opposition but that it will end with the beast (Rome) killing them and the world gloating over their victory. Rome tried to stop the witness of the church but those who were “martyred” (Greek word for witness) are taken to heaven (picture of the ascension) where they will reign with Christ. (Rev 20:6) Because the “blood of martyrs is seed” God brings judgment on the perpetrators and others will see this and repent and turn to God. The church eventually took Rome for God without a sword drawn (physical).

[Dane Gjesdal]

Second Coming:

I am not a pre-trib person. I also only believe that Jesus will come back as he said one time. Like a thief, as the lightening flashes in the sky, etc.... everyone will know it when it happens.

See below


I do see prophecies as not having been all fulfilled. The Lion has not laid down with the Lamb yet. But trying to put all this stuff into a perfect timeline is just silly.

Very true

All of this stuff is to help us have faith and hope. To make us stay ready for meeting Jesus.

You got it.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
NIV

I see this as the “second coming”. The dispensationalist does not. They say that because his feet did not touch down (the rapture) it was not his coming.

The Lion and the Lamb…

Where do we teach that there will be glorified animals on earth or in heaven? Will God come and sanctify the carnality of the animal kingdom from the fall? I believe in sanctification of the human heart but of the animals? For heaven sakes, where did this come from? I know John Wesley believed his horse was going to make it to heaven, but I do not believe he was serious. Is the Lion and the Lamb is a picture of peace, or a literal lion and lamb lying down together in some earthly dispensation. I do not buy the literal idea.

The dispensational view says that the “lion and Lamb” time is during the Millennium. In the millennium you have spiritual people who accepted Christ (before his return) get their crowns and are Ruling their kingdoms of people who are part Glorified and cart Carnal. Children being born from those who made it through the tribulation who were not saved are able to enter the 1000 year millennium. (Scratch head). You will have people who will need to accept Christ born of those who are not glorified. When they die they face judgment, and they either come back glorified or stay in heaven or go to hell. (Wow Bob you look great, Yes, I was glorified last week.”) You see there has to be natural non-glorified people who are here on earth (must be vegetarians) to mount the last battle (Armageddon). There will be millions of them too. I have a heard time swallowing this. So having the Lion and Lamb at peace means what?

[Roland Hearn]

Roland, I am not a pre-trib person. I also only believe that Jesus will come back as he said one time. Like a thief, as the lightening flashes in the sky, etc.... everyone will know it when it happens. This thread is about exploring eschatology issues so I am throwing out stuff at you. Be sarcastic if you like. I will too. "Left-Behind" is silly and is not Biblical.

Dale
I just now realized why your name is familiar. I'm so sorry it didn't connect before. We of course met at Dallas district assembly a couple of times and I think if I remember right your church had been in a pretty painful building project for a long time that you were finally starting to get some green lights on - is that right and how is that going?
My sarcasm was intended to reflect my frustration with the pre-millennialist position and not on you personally. My issues with the whole concept aren't limited to pre-trib, I do not believe that pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, as you appear to be, are sustainable in the final analysis. I do not believe that there will be a literal tribulation that will be linked to a Christian rapture, not before, during or after.
The amillenial and post millenial positions don't include a last days tribulation in them. Tribulation is a likely human experience anywhere in the world at any time.
I certainly recognize that you are being very gracious in the way you are stating your perspective and I may not be returning that in kind. If that is the case please accept my apology.
I agree with you on your assesment of the return of Christ, however it all comes together the only biblically sustainable position I can see is the one that includes his unforseen and utterly revealed return.


I do see prophecies as not having been all fulfilled. The Lion has not laid down with the Lamb yet. But trying to put all this stuff into a perfect timeline is just silly.

All of this stuff is to help us have faith and hope. To make us stay ready for meeting Jesus.

I honestly think that a pessamistic view of what grace has achieved in our culure it less likely to make us truly ready for his return. The more we see a culture that is increasingly falling away as being inevitable the more secure we feel about our failure to transform it. We tend to think our labors are in vein because it has been declared that the world will get worse and worse until he comes. I don't think that is helpful as we pursue ways of reaching our world for Him.


But I still belive that the current western culture has peaked and is sliding the wrong way, morally, and eventually economically and politcally. Will it hit bottom? No, but it won't be the beacon it once was to the world. I think this is also evident within our denomination as we see the rest of the world take a more prominent place within the CoN.

Dale this is the part that I simply cannot get. Why do you think western culture has peaked and sliding down. What evidence is there beyond the fact that there is bad news in the papers.



People are basically the same as they always have been. Technology is the single greatest improvement driving all our quality of life gains. Governmental systems come and go. Being a democracy is a delicate balance held in place by the morality of the people. When that morality fails so does the freedom the people enjoy within that democracy. As morality wanes in the west we will see us realign with a less free world system.

I will certainly grant you some of this paragraph. People are in fact basically the same, they certainly aren't worse. Technology does play its part in the imporvements of life but it is much more than that.
How is the morality of any democracy anywhere in the world worse today than it was say 200 years ago or even 50 years ago? There are sins that are much more publicised now but there were sins of by gone eras that are just amazing to us in today's culture.


Jesus said that people would be doing the same stuff we have always done right up til he comes back. "Like the days of Noah"

20 yrs or 20,000 years from now, man will still have the same problems with sin and immorality. "Til Jesus comes back."as the saying goes.

Yup mankind will always struggle with sin and always need a saviour. The pre-millenial position hinges on the world getting worse and worse as we apporach dooms day. It doesn't matter whether you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib that is going to be a part of the overall view. I think such a concept is counter grace, I think it is a pessimistic view of humanity, I think it lulls the church into feeling good about failing to be what God has called us to be, and I do not think it is observable in reality. In short I think it is a distructive view point. I think that prophecy will all be fulfilled and most of it in ways that weren't considered.
However, I believe that God is at work in the world, I think that His word will not return to Him void, I think if we open our eyes we will see a vista of glory all around and be swept up in an enthusiastic rallying together to see countless millions ushered into His kingdom. That is why I am not a pre-millennialist.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans the issue can't ever be about needing a saviour less or being more naturally moral.

That's right.

However, it is not possible to look at the world around us and not see the influence of the church for good across the centuries.

But ashamed, I have to say the influence of the church has been bad more often than not. People have been and still are being manipulated, abused, and when the church got involved in politics, the results were frequently disastrous.

Are children still working in mines? Is slavery and racism tolerated to the same extent? Is it possible for children to eat well and have an education these days.

As to child labour, in 1874 the law against it was adopted in the Dutch Parliament, introduced not by one of the members of the Christian parties but one of the classical liberal parties. It had little effect until in 1900, the education law was adopted that made schooling obligatory for children from 6-12. The law was adopted 50-49 because one of the no-voters had fallen of his horse. Actually, Christian parties voted against it because they wanted to have Christian education subsidized by the government as well, which they managed to get done by a constitutional amendment in 1923. The socialist parties were in favour, but felt the law did not go far enough.

Slavery of course has been abolished, but it was as much thanks to the church, as despite the church. Racism even more so. It kind of illustrates my point. In the battle against these evils there have very clearly been Christians who, inspired by the Holy Spirit, have "fought the good fight" in a very brave and grace filled manner. That speaks about what God's grace can do in people, and I certainly believe and see this.
Yet is also clearly shows that even those that carry His name have worked against it, and often none Christians have supported the change.

I'm not sure how you see the essential issue of humanity apart from the grace of God needing to create His kingdom on earth. That certainly isn't what I am saying. I do believe however that God's grace will increasingly impact the whole of humanity.

I wish I could believe it. I wish I could see signs of that. But for the sake of a suffering world, I sure hope the Lord will not wait to return until we finally allowed that grace to work through us to such an extent that the Kingdom will be ready for the arrival of the King. For that is going to take millennia of more suffering, bloodshed, poverty, hunger, rape, torture and abuse. I truly hope God will say "enough" before that time.

[Brad Mercer]

I sure hope the Lord will not wait to return until we finally allowed that grace to work through us to such an extent that the Kingdom will be ready for the arrival of the King. For that is going to take millennia of more suffering, bloodshed, poverty, hunger, rape, torture and abuse. I truly hope God will say "enough" before that time.

Well, of course, I have no idea when Christ will return, or what -- if any -- circumstances on earth will prompt that return. I do know there is less slavery, less war, less poverty and less disease in the world today than in the world 100 years ago, and less 100 years ago than 2000 years ago. There is a greater attempt to show compassion and respect for the worth of the individual today than in the past, and that tendency has been progressive over a long period of time. Surely it must also be true that a higher percentage of the total population of the world voluntarily, individually calls itself Christian today than at any previous time.

The issue isn't whether the institutional church or self-proclaimed Christians have been monolithically supportive of those trends. The fact is, all of those trends have radiated out to the rest of the world from the "Christian" west. Even those in the west who have been most scornful of the church have been immersed in it's ideals. That's where the scorn comes from. A religion that didn't make such professions would not be despised for failing to realize them. When Thomas Jefferson was rejecting "priestcraft" and "superstition" he still thought it worthwhile to write an abridged version of the New Testament to propogate the ethical teachings it contained. All religions and philosophies aren't created equal. Islam stresses duty and Buddhism stresses detachment. The church, even at its worst, continues to pay at least lip service to the notion of mutual self-sacrificial love as its core value.

That is the yeast that leavens the culture, "Christian" and "anti-Christian" alike.

There's plenty to be discouraged about, but this age is closer to a golden age than any previous age when looking at the planet as a whole, and it's not coincidence that it doesn't radiate first from China or India or the other great centers of civilization.

At the very least, I would declare that, even if we're not on the verge of the millenial reign, the world's not going to hell in a handbasket either. At the very least, the wheat is growing up with the tares. Don't grow weary in well-doing, and be not dismayed. We aren't just waiting in our fortress. Grace is always on offense; it doesn't know how to play defensively and run out the clock.

Love,
Brad

[Roland Hearn]

But ashamed, I have to say the influence of the church has been bad more often than not. People have been and still are being manipulated, abused, and when the church got involved in politics, the results were frequently disastrous.

Yes Hans the church as an organization has failed miserably time and time again. The glorious view of the church that I maintain is not built upon the performance of the church organized it is of the church as an organism, the vehicle of God's grace that has been at work in the world sometimes at the opposition of the church as an organization. I separate the two completely.



As to child labour, in 1874 the law against it was adopted in the Dutch Parliament, introduced not by one of the members of the Christian parties but one of the classical liberal parties. It had little effect until in 1900, the education law was adopted that made schooling obligatory for children from 6-12. The law was adopted 50-49 because one of the no-voters had fallen of his horse. Actually, Christian parties voted against it because they wanted to have Christian education subsidized by the government as well, which they managed to get done by a constitutional amendment in 1923. The socialist parties were in favour, but felt the law did not go far enough.

Slavery of course has been abolished, but it was as much thanks to the church, as despite the church. Racism even more so. It kind of illustrates my point. In the battle against these evils there have very clearly been Christians who, inspired by the Holy Spirit, have "fought the good fight" in a very brave and grace filled manner. That speaks about what God's grace can do in people, and I certainly believe and see this.
Yet is also clearly shows that even those that carry His name have worked against it, and often none Christians have supported the change.


Yes once again you are right but here is the thing: Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. Those good deeds done by men and women who do not profess Christ have been done precisely because God is God and grace is grace. God will do His will and His will is to pour out his love on humanity.
Slavery was stopped in England as much due to the work of John Wesley as any other, yet even in those places where the church has resisted the changes necessary to revel grace, grace has still been revealed. That is what makes me so optimistic. If the evil one can not stop the move of the grace of God through those that do not profess Christ how much more can we the church do if we will fall in tune with His gracious endeavors.



I wish I could believe it. I wish I could see signs of that. But for the sake of a suffering world, I sure hope the Lord will not wait to return until we finally allowed that grace to work through us to such an extent that the Kingdom will be ready for the arrival of the King. For that is going to take millennia of more suffering, bloodshed, poverty, hunger, rape, torture and abuse. I truly hope God will say "enough" before that time.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." We serve a great and glorious God that has not done yet pouring out His love upon us. Hang around a bit it gets better yet.

[Hans Deventer]

At the very least, the wheat is growing up with the tares.

Yes.

Don't grow weary in well-doing, and be not dismayed. We aren't just waiting in our fortress. Grace is always on offense; it doesn't know how to play defensively and run out the clock.

I know, Brad. Again, I'm not dismayed at a personal level. Even yesterday, we had a sermon about "one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."

And I believe it and I'm trying to follow it to the best of my abilities. I still, I guess more than ever, believe that God's grace can do miracles. I just lack the world wide vision. In fact, I do believe that God is not so much interested in personal salvation as in saving the world. It's "For God so love the world" for good reason.
My only problem is that I cannot see it happen at that level.

So I'm pressing toward the goal, and at the same time waiting for answer to the questions we find in the Psalms:

Psalm 74:10
How long will the enemy mock you, O God? Will the foe revile your name forever?

Psalm 82:2
"How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?

Psalm 94:3
How long will the wicked, O LORD, how long will the wicked be jubilant?

[Brad Mercer]

I know, Brad. Again, I'm not dismayed at a personal level. Even yesterday, we had a sermon about "one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."

So I'm pressing toward the goal, and at the same time waiting for answer to the questions we find in the Psalms:

The Psalms are such a great place to spend some time when we need permission to be honest with God about our questions and suspicions and our pain and discouragement. The psalmist doesn't usually get answers, he just winds up praising and expressing confidence in God again anyway.

Most of the time when I write or preach, including in my previous post in this thread, I'm primarily writing or preaching to myself and only secondarily to anyone else who might be dealing with the same issues.

Nobody is more inclined to cynicism than the idealist. I've seen so many cynical, bitter, alienated old people. I'm just determined, in the teeth of all evidence to the contrary, to remain a naive, radical optimist.

I want abundant life and joy unspeakable and grace beyond measure, and to stand on the mountaintop and look out over the promised land, and believe the best of people who've given me every reason to believe the worst. I want to be like Jacob wrestling with the angel, saying "I will not let thee go except thou bless me."

You just have such a special place in my heart, I deeply want the same things for you. It's our job as brothers and sisters in the church to keep the dream alive in each other's hearts, to refuse to let the light grow dim or the fire grow cold in each other.


Love,
Brad

[Hans Deventer]

You just have such a special place in my heart, I deeply want the same things for you. It's our job as brothers and sisters in the church to keep the dream alive in each other's hearts, to refuse to let the light grow dim or the fire grow cold in each other.

Brad, there will always be disappointments. But I am not generally disappointed. Yesterday, I walked home from church with a big smile on my face. A story I had read some time ago in a Brennan Manning book all of a sudden came to mind. Brennan, as a youngster, had been visiting an uncle who lived in Ireland. He spent some time with the old man and noticed how there was always some kind of joy in his eyes. Upon asking him about that joy, the old man answered, "Yes, well, you know, my Father is very fond of me".

That sentence kept resonating through my head, and even right now, it brings a smile to face. So I am not depressed or desperate, not at all. I am closer to God than I have been for a long time. Or perhaps I'm just more aware of it :basic01

And I am always hopeful regarding the future because if you believe in God, there is always hope, there is always a future, and evil will NOT have the last word.

So the whole discussion is not about what future there will be, or whether or not God will bring it about. The question is, HOW will He bring it about. Now the Bible has both images that speak about a growth model of the Kingdom of God, and about judgement and direct action from God, a non-linear model. I guess it is not so much the theology than it is one's character and outlook on life that decides here, for both have their Biblical support. Even Jesus Himself was not always optimistic: "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" I am generally more optimistic than that, I think He was too. But I can relate to Him and I want to follow Him, as it says in Hebrews 12:

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

[Randy Wise]

Many believe that Christ’s Kingdom came and separated itself from the OT “order” on 70 AD for not one sacrifice has been offered in almost 2000 years from this date. Hebrews 8:13 “By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” This “old order” was not gone at the time that Hebrews was written. The transition from the OT to the NT had some overlap. Not for salvation of course, it has always been by faith from first to last, but God in his great patience sent the message first to the Jew and and they had 3.5+3.5 years to avoid God's judgment (3.5 years- Jesus ministry – the cross - 3.5 years of ministry to only Jews = 7 years; with the judgment coming at 70AD). The sole outreach to the Jew ended and at the end of the 7 years. From the time of Steven’s great message and martyrdom (end of the 70th week) the Gospel message began to go to the Geniles.

How do you interpret Matthew 16:27-28 literally? - as you do Mark 13:24-27?

Matthew 16:27-28
28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." NIV

This is not the Holy Spirit coming. That interpretation makes the “some” and “death” part meaningless.

Matthew 24:30
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

This is hard to understand, but from a Middle Eastern cultural understanding, they say that when the vengeance of a King would come he came not “from the sky”, but like a cloud “towards” the cities that were going to be destroyed (Jerusalem). God came to judge Jerusalem (Sodom & Egypt - Rev 11:8) and those who rejected his son. From that day on the gospel spread like a wild fire. (Read Adam Clark)



I believe this: This can have a double fulfillment as the prophecies of the OT had a double fulfillment. Here is the difficulty. We have no way to know what prophecies will have a future fulfillment and what one will not. Look at Paul when he quotes the OT and gives a NT fulfillment. He pulls out quotes from the OT that if you look at the whole text it does not apply but only what Paul quotes. Look at the context of some of the passages quoted about Jesus as the messiah. If you were alive in the OT and taught that the whole context of the verses will be fulfilled by Jesus you would come up with some really strange Models of Christ first advent.

Case in Point -

Micah 5:1-6

Marshal your troops, O city of troops,
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel's ruler
on the cheek with a rod.

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."

3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
5 And he will be their peace.

When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men.
6 They will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrian
when he invades our land
and marches into our borders. NIV

So here if you had an OT Hal Lindsey predicting the place where the Messiah will be born, then after his birth, he will Sheppard his flock, and the Assyrians will invade the land and Jesus will deliver the Jews from the Assyrians.

This has to literally happen because it has to happen exactly as this whole text states. Right? Wrong.

Take at look back at matt24 put vs 33 when these things happen with vs 34 this generation - in other words not the generation Jesus was teaching but the generation alive when those events take place.

Now as to the new covenant God made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel the descendants of Jacob that preached the introduction of this new covenant are known in this day and age as Christians as Jesus who is called Christ is the mediator of this covenant. Remember Cephus and the others were surprised that God had then offer the circumision of the Spirit even to the gentiles. One part of the new testament message is that a day of judgement has been set by God. How can a loving God hold people accountable for sin they havn't been warned about, (as the law was not sent to the gentiles but to the children of Abraham). The gospels must be sent to the whole world first. The first covenant had curses and blessings and so there are also blessings and curses with the new covenant. The eternal consequences are for those that reject God's Christ who was made judge of the living and the dead All will come before Jesus(the gate) We have testimony that better explains the absence of a high priest on earth then those that teach Jesus is not the Christ. We have testimony that explains how God writes this new covenant on our hearts. The entire new testament speaks to us of this new covenant and those events didn't take place in a