Lessons from James Kim's Death

[Dave McClung]

For those of you who may not get news from the Northwest, James Kim, his wife and 2 babies left the wife's parents in Oregon to return to their home near San Francisco, CA just after Thanksgiving. When James didn't arrive at work a search was initiated. Last week, the wife and children were rescued. James Kim's body was found deep in the woods about 8 miles from the car. So far, no cause of death has been revealed, but there are enough details to be a lesson for the rest of us.

Here is a link to the most recent story: http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_120706WABjameskim_autopsyLJ.6504834.html

Here are some notes I made:

1. When you take a trip during the winter, be sure to have survial gear in your car. The gear should include plenty of warm clothing, rain gear, food for several days, footwear that will allow walking in snow, matches, a compass, detailed maps, and water.

2. When using gps navigation, don't stow your common sense. If the computer shows a route that doesn't make sense, override the computer. A few years ago, Linda and I found ourselves in someone's pasture in Colorado at midnight because the gps map had an error in it. Reports are that the Kim's were on the impassable road because their gps sent them that way.

3. When it is snowing, it is worth extra miles to stay on Interstate Highways.

4. Before you leave on a trip, make sure that someone knows your intended route. If you decide to take a different route, call and tell where you are going.

5. If you do get stuck, stay with the car!!!

6. Never for any reason leave the road. When searchers come looking for you, they will look on the highway. (Apparently James Kim left the highway because bears were following him. He should have climbed a tree rather than leaving the highway.)

7. Stay dry!! Don't allow your clothing to become wet. Wet clothing won't provide insulation.

8. After a car runs out of gas, you can still keep some heat in the car by making an emergency heater. Remove a hub cap. Drain some engine oil into the hub cap. Use cloth for a wick. Place the hub cap on the floor board of the car and light the wick. An engine has enough oil to burn for hours. (Don't try it with gasoline.)

9. Don't gamble with the lives of your children!! I can think of several times I have been on mountain roads in the winter where I could have slid off of the road, but I would never expose little children to that kind of risk.

[BobHunt]

Dave, they said on the news, that they burnt the tires for warmth? How did they start those tires on fire?

[Dave McClung]

Dave, they said on the news, that they burnt the tires for warmth? How did they start those tires on fire?

I heard that report too, but it has been dropped from later news pieces. I didn't mention that, because I don't think it would be practical. One can't lite a tire with a match. Besides that, they were in forest area. Gathering wood would have been a much better option that burning tires.

[Gina Stevenson]

Perhaps they found the wood to be so wet, it kept going out? So, they turned to tires as an alternative, rather than a first choice? Anyway, I was also hoping he'd be found alive, though I tho't of the old warning to stay with one's car, "no matter what." Had he done that, he'd be here now, too.

HOWEVER, 'cannot imagine the frustration of being lost out in the cold for as long as they were; who knows how one's frustration might overcome their common sense at a time like that? From reports that he knew how to survive in the out-of-doors---which helped give them hope of his being found alive---I'd guess he'd also, more than once, heard that warning to stay with one's car. Apparently gave up hope that the car would be found, going to find the help himself, instead. :(

I heard that report too, but it has been dropped from later news pieces. I didn't mention that, because I don't think it would be practical. One can't lite a tire with a match. Besides that, they were in forest area. Gathering wood would have been a much better option that burning tires.

[Bruce Carriker]

Dave, you forgot another really good rule:

When the weather report says it could get bad, stay home.

[Dave McClung]

Perhaps they found the wood to be so wet, it kept going out? So, they turned to tires as an alternative, rather than a first choice? Anyway, I was also hoping he'd be found alive, though I tho't of the old warning to stay with one's car, "no matter what." Had he done that, he'd be here now, too.

HOWEVER, 'cannot imagine the frustration of being lost out in the cold for as long as they were; who knows how one's frustration might overcome their common sense at a time like that? From reports that he knew how to survive in the out-of-doors---which helped give them hope of his being found alive---I'd guess he'd also, more than once, heard that warning to stay with one's car. Apparently gave up hope that the car would be found, going to find the help himself, instead. :(

About the same time as this search was going on a man was missing in Washington's mountains. He stayed with his car. He had to wait for two whole weeks before he was found. When he was found, only an inch or two of his vehicle was still visable above the snow. He had warm clothing and some snacks in his car. He survived. Staying with the car made the difference.

[Dave McClung]

Dave, you forgot another really good rule:

When the weather report says it could get bad, stay home.

That is a good rule, but it really wasn't the factor in Kim's case. The weather was simply "winter" in the mountains. During this time of the year, we have snow almost every day in the mountains.

[Sara Sheppard]

Dave,

I have been in San Francisco this week, where the Kim's are from, so this story has been everywhere. I was my praying for this man's safe return and was so saddened when I heard he was not found alive.

Your tips are good ones.

Thanks!
Sara

[Cindi Hammons]

He had two lighters.

[David Cash]

I tried driving home from work just after the state took the road closed warnings off the radio during a spring blizzard early this year. Don't think I want to get out in bad weather again anytime soon.

Had I gotten stranded on my particular 21 mile commute, I could have found my way to a house for shelter if needed. I was dressed for it, on a well-travelled highway, in very familiar territory and in populated country. It would be a whole different ballgame in the west or in mountainous terrain. As it was, the whole scenario was kind of an idiot move on my part, and my normal half hour commute ran to more like an hour and a half just to get to my driveway. It was longer than that before I got my car far enough in to allow the snowplow access.

Stay home in bad weather.

David Cash

[Gina Stevenson]

About the same time as this search was going on a man was missing in Washington's mountains. He stayed with his car. He had to wait for two whole weeks before he was found. When he was found, only an inch or two of his vehicle was still visable above the snow. He had warm clothing and some snacks in his car. He survived. Staying with the car made the difference.

Oh, I heartily agree about staying with one's car! It's shelter. 'Sounds like this other guy you mentioned may have been alone, tho', no? Perhaps it was a situation where -- in spite of being a reasonable man (from what we've heard; it's been news nationwide for days, I guess, not just out there) -- his "position" coerced him into overriding his common sense. Perhaps "macho" kicks in with a guy, after a week or so, feeling like he's "doing nothing to help his family" if he "just sits there in the car," waiting for help, rather than actively going for help himself? If so, that's so sad ... losing one's life, due to feeling overly responsible enough to risk one's life, to be "doing SOMETHING" about getting help.

So, let's pray that whether alone or with one's family, guys won't feel like they have to trek out by themselves, while their family waits; it's more than once happened just like this ... the ones left behind are OK, and the one who set out alone didn't make it. :(

[Dave McClung]

Oh, I heartily agree about staying with one's car! It's shelter. 'Sounds like this other guy you mentioned may have been alone, tho', no? Perhaps it was a situation where -- in spite of being a reasonable man (from what we've heard; it's been news nationwide for days, I guess, not just out there) -- his "position" coerced him into overriding his common sense. Perhaps "macho" kicks in with a guy, after a week or so, feeling like he's "doing nothing to help his family" if he "just sits there in the car," waiting for help, rather than actively going for help himself? If so, that's so sad ... losing one's life, due to feeling overly responsible enough to risk one's life, to be "doing SOMETHING" about getting help.

So, let's pray that whether alone or with one's family, guys won't feel like they have to trek out by themselves, while their family waits; it's more than once happened just like this ... the ones left behind are OK, and the one who set out alone didn't make it. :(

I found it interesting that last night on the evening news a law enforcement spokesman said, "Mr. Kim did nothing wrong. He did what any other father would have done in the circumstance. He tried to go for help."

I think he was reacting to folks, like me, who have pointed out the mistakes Mr. Kim made. I don't think it is being critical when we attempt to learn form the mistakes of others. I agree that we all make mistakes. I have made several that could have resulted in my death. I hope if I die due to a mistake, people won't be hesitant to learn from the mistake.

[BobHunt]

(the hiker....I do this for Belinda's sake! LOL) you would get along with my moherinlaw just fine, she has always told us "kids" that when its snowy and icy, keep on the main roads even if it is the long way home!

[Jim Franklin]

I remember in the winter of 1951-52 the four-three day blizzards we had in the Dakotas that winter. Human lives were lost and hundreds of cattle. We hunkered down and played table games, read and listened to the neighbor-neighbor communications on the radio which was common in the Dakotas in that time frame.

[Jim Franklin]

I remember in the winter of 1951-52 the four-three day blizzards we had in the Dakotas that winter. Human lives were lost and hundreds of cattle. We hunkered down and played table games, read and listened to the neighbor-neighbor communications on the radio which was common in the Dakotas in that time frame.

A few years ago a lady was found after several days in northeastern South Dakota, not far from Watertown, where we had lived, she had stayed with her vehicle. Triangulation of cell phone signal was what helped searchers find her. It was even made a special in one of those TV magazine reports.

[Gina Stevenson]

Yes, it is sad that --- to be a "responsible father" --- he may have felt that is what he had to do. Yes, this law enforcement spokesman was definitely replying to those wanting to point out lessons. BUT those lessons aren't meant to make Mr. Kim look bad (tho' this spokesman sounded like he wanted to make sure of that), but so that the next "responsible father" will be "responsible" enough to stay with his family, rather than trekking out alone.

I found it interesting that last night on the evening news a law enforcement spokesman said, "Mr. Kim did nothing wrong. He did what any other father would have done in the circumstance. He tried to go for help."

I think he was reacting to folks, like me, who have pointed out the mistakes Mr. Kim made. I don't think it is being critical when we attempt to learn form the mistakes of others. I agree that we all make mistakes. I have made several that could have resulted in my death. I hope if I die due to a mistake, people won't be hesitant to learn from the mistake.

[Bruce Carriker]

That is a good rule, but it really wasn't the factor in Kim's case. The weather was simply "winter" in the mountains. During this time of the year, we have snow almost every day in the mountains.


That's why I don't go the mountains this time of year, unless it's to ski. And I let someone else drive...like the shuttle service that picks me up at the closest airport. :basic01

[David Cash]

I struggle with this story, because even as an old bachelor with no family to be responsible about I'd really consider walking. I work outside in cold weather. I've been known to walk recreationally when it was cold. I used to walk my dog, when I had one, in snowstorms. Of course I was on an established road, and stayed within a half mile of home. But when I factor it all in, if I was here in Wisconsin instead of a remote mountain region, I'd be really tempted to try walking, and I realize that it would probably be a foolish move.

My one fear is that this post will encourage somebody else to go out and freeze to death when they should have stayed with the car.

David Cash

[Beth Larpenter-Shurbutt]

I read this morning that the road they were found on had been closed since November 1. Vandals had cut the locks on the gates that had closed the road! They are now looking for those responsible for cutting the locks.

The article also said that they were only a mile from a fishing camp that had been closed for the winter but was stocked with food. I'm sure there was no way they could have known that.

The saying is, "If foresight was as good as hindsight, we'd all be out of sight!" We can learn (and should) from the mistakes of others.

I pray for this young mother and precious children who no longer have their dad!

Beth

[Barbara Moulton]

I have heard that it is good to have candles in the car (and matches) as well. I know one night that the girls and I were stuck just outside of town in an icy parking lot. We drove in but could not get out. The event had been cancelled but nobody had told us that.

I had a cell phone and while waiting the 40 minutes for the tow truck, we lit the candles.

Now...I am not sure that they did anything for warmth...we weren't there long enough to really know. But they did add a nice warm touch and light to the car as we sat there in the dark.

Are candles a good thing to have?

[David Cash]

I have heard that it is good to have candles in the car (and matches) as well. I know one night that the girls and I were stuck just outside of town in an icy parking lot. We drove in but could not get out. The event had been cancelled but nobody had told us that.

I had a cell phone and while waiting the 40 minutes for the tow truck, we lit the candles.

Now...I am not sure that they did anything for warmth...we weren't there long enough to really know. But they did add a nice warm touch and light to the car as we sat there in the dark.

Are candles a good thing to have?

I think somebody said when I was a kid that if a candle were to go out in a partially buried car it would indicate you're oxygen supply was failing and you'd better get some air flow. I don't know if the candle would go out before the people passed out or not. I also don't know if it would tend to use up oxygen or be a serious fire hazard. So for whatever it's worth.

When I was very young, my parents carried a double sleeping bag and a large chocolate bar as a winter emergency insurance policy. My sister and I got in trouble when I opened and she tasted the chocolate bar during non-emergency conditions. We were still small enough that a family of four could have fit inside the double sleeping bag in a pinch.

David Cash

[Bruce Carriker]

I have mixed feelings on this whole issue, and I feel for this guy's family. And I don't want to judge to harshly, especially when the guy isn't here to explain himself. but...

I don't know all the details, but from what I've seen this was a rather remote road. As the father of two kids, I can't imagine what motivated him to travel travel across a road he didn't know; a road that was POSTED as a snowdrift danger area; in the middle of a snowstorm. However valiant his efforts to find help for his family, it was his own extremely poor judgment that placed them in danger in the first place.

[Bruce Carriker]

In my trunk there are wool army blankets, an old army poncho,and a couple of small bottles of water...no food, or candles. In my glove box are matches, a butane lighter, and a flashlight with an extra set of batteries.

I don't know if a candle will warm the interior of a car. However I do know that a candle WILL provide a little bit of warmth if you are sitting "Indian-style", beneath an army poncho lean-to, with the candle between your legs. It's not exactly a fireplace, but when it's below zero outside, it helps a little.

[Jim Franklin]

Today's paper said that they would not have branched off on the road they were on if someone had not cut a lock and left the gate open that was supposed to remain closed after Nov. 1. The authorities are now trying to find out who cut the lock and left the gate open. I suspect if they do find out who did it there will be a charge of criminal negligence.

[Bruce Carriker]

Yes, I saw that story. And whoever did that ought to be flogged. But I saw pictures of the turn-off on the morning news. There's a sign that says it's a snowdrift danger area. Why would you drive there, especially if you weren't ABSOLUTELY SURE where you were going?

It was late at night. The terrain he was driving into was very rugged. He was going UP...into more weather. When he left I-5, he was still at least a couple of hours from his destination, IN GOOD WEATHER.

Why would you drive over mountain passes, through a remote National Forest, on secondary roads (or worse) with which you were unfamiliar, late at night, in a snowstorm? When for eighty bucks or so you can hole up at the Holiday Inn Express in Grant's Pass?

[Gina Stevenson]

"Why would you drive over mountain passes, through a remote National Forest, on secondary roads (or worse) with which you were unfamiliar, late at night, in a snowstorm? When for eighty bucks or so you can hole up at the Holiday Inn Express in Grant's Pass?"

Possibly because things like this happen to "other people, not me?" [TIC]

[Joel Merrill]

McClung[/left];64013]
8. After a car runs out of gas, you can still keep some heat in the car by making an emergency heater. Remove a hub cap. Drain some engine oil into the hub cap. Use cloth for a wick. Place the hub cap on the floor board of the car and light the wick. An engine has enough oil to burn for hours. (Don't try it with gasoline.)



I agree 100% with everything you said but I don't know how practical this is. If they were in a ditch or stuck in the snow it might be pretty hard to get to the drain plug under the engine. I do not think it is smart to crawl under a car that is just held up with a ordinary jack. A large rock or log might work but they would probably be frozen to the ground. Putting the spare tire under the car probably wouldn't be high enough. Most people don't carry any tools with them. They should carry at least a few basic tools. Most hub caps now days are plastic. Burning oil is very smoky and smelly. They would have to open a window to get fresh air in which would also let a lot of cold air in.

Human bodies huddled together will help a lot. If you are putting together a survival kit, Coleman make a little heater that runs on a little propane cylinder. Even a Coleman lamps gives off quite a bit of heat for it's size. Of course no matter what you burn, you have to be careful of carbon monoxide.

People are told to keep their tanks at least half full in the winter because of condensation in their tank but it is also a good idea not to let your tank get less than half full when you are traveling. I know you would have to stop twice as often but it could make a big difference if you got stranded.

Joel

[David Cash]

About why they took that route--is it possible that people from urban California might not be fully aware of what a winter in the mountains really means? I'm from the snowy upper midwest, but have to admit that winter in the mountains is a whole different package--and I've had only very limited exposure to it.

David Cash

[David Cash]

ABC News has an interesting article on how to survive on its website. Try http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2705076. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2705076)

David Cash

[Dave McClung]

I agree 100% with everything you said but I don't know how practical this is. ...

It may not be practical, but I know some people who are still alive because they did exactly what I described.

[Dave McClung]

ABC News has an interesting article on how to survive on its website. Try http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2705076. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2705076)

David Cash

Did you see the helicopter in the picture? That is a civilian version of the one I flew in Vietnam. I didn't realize that there were any of them still around. Helicopters don't usually last 40 years.

[Lee Branum]

according to the news tonight. He had a pickup camper that was stuck in snow, he journaled his time of over two months. His last notes were that he probably had lost 140 pounds, and they found him and his camper as the spring thaw had begun. It's just not a good idea to venture into unknown mountainous areas during winter months. The risks are certainly there. Your preparations for winter driving are great Dave!

LeeB

[Bruce Carriker]

Possibly because things like this happen to "other people, not me?" [TIC]

I guess I'm more of a chicken than most people. At the first sign of bad weather, if I'm traveling, I head for the nearest town, find a hotel, and wait for the snow to stop and the plows to do their thing. I also rarely travel off the interstate at night, unless I'm in an area with which I'm familiar.

[Dave McClung]

I guess I'm more of a chicken than most people. At the first sign of bad weather, if I'm traveling, I head for the nearest town, find a hotel, and wait for the snow to stop and the plows to do their thing. I also rarely travel off the interstate at night, unless I'm in an area with which I'm familiar.

That is a wise position considering where you live. If you lived out here in the Seattle area, you wouldn't leave home for half the year. It seems that we are always just 50 miles from a blizzard.

[Bruce Carriker]

That is a wise position considering where you live. If you lived out here in the Seattle area, you wouldn't leave home for half the year. It seems that we are always just 50 miles from a blizzard.

I've been skiing several times when I had to drive between Spokane and Missoula; or Salt Lake City and Missoula. Until I hit the Missoula exit, I never left the interstate. One year I got into a blizzard at night in Monida Pass. I got off at the next exit and checked into a motel. It wasn't a very nice motel, but it was better than driving in whiteout conditions.

[Dave McClung]

I've been skiing several times when I had to drive between Spokane and Missoula; or Salt Lake City and Missoula. Until I hit the Missoula exit, I never left the interstate. One year I got into a blizzard at night in Monida Pass. I got off at the next exit and checked into a motel. It wasn't a very nice motel, but it was better than driving in whiteout conditions.

Yes, I have had similar experiences. A few years ago I left Rawlings, Wy after a snow storm. The storm had already passed, but the roads were still unplowed. I thought that because I had a 4 wheel drive truck, I wouldn't have a problem.

My truck did well, but the factor that I didn't consider was the 18 wheelers. The first one that passed me caused a total white out. I couldn't see beyond the windshield. Before I could see again I was off the highway and the first thing I saw was a highway marker right in front of me. I managed to pass it on the right.

The 18 wheeler that caused the white out wound up in a ditch a few miles farther along.

My point is simply to agree with you that when the weather is bad, it is best to get off the highway. Even if you can handle it, you can't control the other drivers.

[David Cash]

Did you see the helicopter in the picture? That is a civilian version of the one I flew in Vietnam. I didn't realize that there were any of them still around. Helicopters don't usually last 40 years.


Yeah, I saw the big helicopter in civilian paint. So is it the one they called the Jolly Green Giant or the one they acronymed as BUFF or something else? I dreamed of flying those things as a kid.

Never got past Cessna 150's before running out of money as a teenager.

David Cash

[Bruce Carriker]

I know what you mean about the truckers, Dave. And I think the guys out west drive much faster than they do in the eastern half of the country, probably because the distances are so great and the traffic is less dense. So they just drive like maniacs. No, wait...the truckers back here drive like maniacs, so I'm not sure what word describes how they drive out there.

One time I was driving through Independence Pass and it was snowing a little. Not bad, but enough that the plows and salt trucks were out. I don't think the truckers even slowed down. Rather than fight with them, I just dropped in behind a snow plow truck and drove about 40 MPH till we got out of the worst of it.

[Dave McClung]

Yeah, I saw the big helicopter in civilian paint. So is it the one they called the Jolly Green Giant or the one they acronymed as BUFF or something else? I dreamed of flying those things as a kid.

Never got past Cessna 150's before running out of money as a teenager.

David Cash

That is called the "Jolly Green Giant" in the Air Force Version. I don't know what they call it when they paint it orange. I have not seen one flying in years. The last time I visited Tucson, quite a few were sitting in the Air Force boneyard. One of the ones I flew is in the Pima Air Force Museum in Tucson.

[Bruce Carriker]

That is called the "Jolly Green Giant" in the Air Force Version. I don't know what they call it when they paint it orange. I have not seen one flying in years. The last time I visited Tucson, quite a few were sitting in the Air Force boneyard. One of the ones I flew is in the Pima Air Force Museum in Tucson.





Jolly Orange Giant??

[Gina Stevenson]

Ask Charlie Brown & Snoopy ... they'll tell you:

"The Great Pumpkin!" ;)


That is called the "Jolly Green Giant" in the Air Force Version. I don't know what they call it when they paint it orange. I have not seen one flying in years. The last time I visited Tucson, quite a few were sitting in the Air Force boneyard. One of the ones I flew is in the Pima Air Force Museum in Tucson.

[Bruce Carriker]

That's it, Gina!! Good job.