Evangelism and the Sinner’s Prayer, Altar Calls, Etc.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I just read a very interesting article and want to discuss one of the points made in the article. The article was called, “Deepen Your Understanding of Conversion.” It was written by Mark Harris and appeared in Mission Maker Magazine 2007.

Harris deals with the idea of the conversion moment from the perspective of how we do evangelism (and how we count converts). He states that you can’t count conversions based on people responding or not responding to the conversion rituals we practice and teach. He further states that he believes that the use of such rituals can actually do more harm than good. Here are some of his words on the topic:

“Many instructions given to unbelievers are not in Scripture, and are based on the desire to give a person something to ‘do’ in order to complete the conversion transaction. But no external action, including a prayer, can bring about internal reality or force God’s hand. Instructions to ‘accept Jesus into your heart’ or ‘pray to receive Christ’ place the seeker’s attention on his own actions, as if by some activity he can open a gate and the Lord will be required to enter in.

Instead, new life depends on the action of God, and a person must seek the Lord Himself rather than perform a man-made ritual…. For this reason, instructions for particular actions are less critical in leading a person to Christ than are general explanations of the truth of the general call of God to repent and believe in Christ.
…
… Although people often come to faith coincident with a prayer or an act of commitment, conversion rituals are more likely to abort the process than to induce it. No body truly coming to faith needs a ritual. No human force can prevent a soul from pressing in to God, once the Holy Spirit has enlightened it. But unbiblical means of salvation can leave people complacent though still lost…”

He points, out for example, that someone might repeat a sinner’s prayer to please you, and then your assurance that they are saved, can abort their seeking process…

We always point to the classic example of the thief on the cross when we say you don’t have to have an altar… But review all the rest of those Jesus encountered. Zacchaeus, woman caught in adultery, etc. It wasn’t just the thief. Jesus did not give formulaic instructions to any of them! Nor did he give an altar call at the end of the Sermon on the Mount.

Let’s look at it concretely. Imagine a guy in an evangelistic service who decides to respond. He goes to the altar where he is led in the sinner’s prayer by an altar worker and is gloriously saved. But when was he saved? Was it as he prayed? What if he had a heart attack and died instantly as he walked down the aisle? Was he saved when he decided to walk up there? If so, why bother walking up there? There is a sense in which a “decision” for Christ is all that is needed. Anything we attach to that could actually be a hindrance. Jesus didn’t make people come up front and kneel so why should we? For that matter, Jesus didn’t even lead people in the sinner’s prayer….

What does this say about the way we do evangelism? For example, we are constantly urged to “close the deal” when we evangelize but in reality, our job is to witness and let the Holy Spirit do the converting on the seeker’s inside on his timetable, his way.

This is fortunate for us because our worship space (middle school cafeteria) doesn't have an altar!

Wilson

[Jerry Frank]

I agree wholeheartedly with Harris's ideas, at least the part you presented to us.

1. Why are we counting anyway? Are we trying to fulfill a quota? Is it a quota for God or one for denominational headquarters? God knows who is in and who is out. God knows where the saved will go on to service, whether in our local church or some other. So I repeat, why are we counting?

2. The count, in part is a reflection of Calvanism. Once saved, always saved. Once you pray the sinner's prayer, you are in. Lets count them. Is that really what we expect? Is that really part of the ministry that scripture directs us to? Is that how we want to present Christ?

3. a) Based on the verbal commitment, we often expect to see assurance on the part of the individual. Is that Biblical? Is not assurance a gift that helps an individual in his Christian walk and growth? I know of people that did not have such assurance yet I expect to see them in heaven. Assurance is NOT a prerequisite for salvation.

3. b) As people on a mission for Christ, we want assurance for ourselves about the people we minister to. We want to be assured that our parents, our children, etc. are going to be in heaven. And so we look for that act of commitment that will assure us of that event. But I don't know that such assurance is our gift to have. Ultimately, God knows the answer and we must learn to leave it in His good hands.

Just some random thoughts. Hope I am not distorting the thread topic.


Jerry

[Billy Cox]

Let’s look at it concretely. Imagine a guy in an evangelistic service who decides to respond. He goes to the altar where he is led in the sinner’s prayer by an altar worker and is gloriously saved. But when was he saved? Was it as he prayed? What if he had a heart attack and died instantly as he walked down the aisle? Was he saved when he decided to walk up there? If so, why bother walking up there? There is a sense in which a “decision” for Christ is all that is needed. Anything we attach to that could actually be a hindrance. Jesus didn’t make people come up front and kneel so why should we? For that matter, Jesus didn’t even lead people in the sinner’s prayer….



Great topic Wilson

It is also interesting that the closest thing to a 'personal evangelism visit' in the Gospels is Jesus' secret meeting with Nicodemus - and Jesus didn't even close the sale. I'm so glad that we have better methods now. :cool:

Long ago when I participated in Christian chat rooms, I could easily set off a firestorm by asking at what point the 12 disciples experienced conversion. Those were the days...

[Kevin Bowser]

Wilson,

I am not sure if what we ask is closing the sale or just asking them to respond publicly and openly to God's call in their life. I do see lot's of Clavinism creeping in to the tenor and tone of the piece that you cut and pasted. That may not accurately reflect the whole article. But it does certainly give that sense.
… Although people often come to faith coincident with a prayer or an act of commitment, conversion rituals are more likely to abort the process than to induce it. No body truly coming to faith needs a ritual. No human force can prevent a soul from pressing in to God, once the Holy Spirit has enlightened it. But unbiblical means of salvation can leave people complacent though still lost…” And I don't understand the paragraph above at all. "abort the process..." What does this mean?

[Billie Goodson]

Wilson,

Your post raises some excellent points. I remember a conversation once with someone that the church should always be open so people can go in and pray at the altar whenever they want. They were almost offended when I said the altar had no significance in prayer to me. Let me repeat "TO ME."

I have always felt that I can pray to God at any time, in any place. I do understand that some hold to the altar as they place they found God, and no problem that they feel compelled to return to there for comfort in times of trouble/special need.

I realize in our denomination that many hold the altar as a special place -- and it is to me. But, the altar to me is where I go to God, not the only place where He is to meet with me. It is not in front of the first row, but, wherever I carry my prayers to God -- that could be in a dumpster if I should happen someday to be in need of prayer there.

I do wonder about some of the language of the author you quoted. If you told me he was a Calvinist, I would not be surprised.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Kevin, you asked about this paragraph;

"… Although people often come to faith coincident with a prayer or an act of commitment, conversion rituals are more likely to abort the process than to induce it. No body truly coming to faith needs a ritual. No human force can prevent a soul from pressing in to God, once the Holy Spirit has enlightened it. But unbiblical means of salvation can leave people complacent though still lost…”

First, "people often come to faith..." He means it is true that often times when people make a decison in their heart to accept Christ they also at that time pray or make an "act of commitment" such as going to an altar. However, those are just simultaneous events and not a "work" that does the "saving." God does the regenerating in response to what is in a person's heart.


Second, the idea of "aborting the process." Suppose I'm the kind of guy that can talk you into buying a timeshare even though you don't really want one. Well suppose I can also talk you into going to altar and repeating the sinners prayer. One day you come seeking and I work my magic so the next thing you know you are getting up from an altar. While a judge might uphold the timeshare contract, God decides when and where and who to regenerate. It might be that you came to altar out of an emotional response due to my manipulation but actually remain unregenerate. However, since I am drilling into that this is how you get saved and I drill it into you that if you followed those steps (kneeling and repeating) you should "take it by faith," you may stop seeking. Thus the "ritual" actually aborted your journey toward salvation. After all, if you keep seeking that means you aren't taking it by faith... [This is actually my testimony with regard to entire sanctification. As a student seeking it I went to an altar and before anything happened I was told to take it by faith so I started claiming it, testifying to it, and stopped seeking it for several years.]

Concerning the "No human force can prevent," part: I've ended a service before to be told later that I should have an altar call after that sermon. If my sermon introduced someone to Christ in such way that they made a decision to accept Christ then my lack of giving them an altar opportunity certainly doesn't stop God from regenerating them anyway.

Wilson

[Jerry Frank]

That's odd. We appear to be interpreting differently.

I thought the author was speaking out against the typical Calvanist / Billy Graham formula.


Jerry

[Wilson L. Deaton]

That's odd. We appear to be interpreting differently.

I thought the author was speaking out against the typical Calvanist / Billy Graham formula.


Jerry

Billie and Kevin both noted some Calvinism... Jerry sees it differently....

I don't know, but I think the overall context of the article tends to support Jerry.

This is what I can tell you... He works for the non-denominational US Center for World Mission. The article appeared in a missions-oriented magazine published by STEM International. (Short-Term Evangelical Missions).

I think part of the perceived Calvinism is due to the "counting converts" aspects (though we are guilty of that, too). Further explanation: In the introductory paragraph he talked about moving to Russia and quickly discerning that the number of existing "converts" seemed to be much fewer than would be indicated by the number of conversions being reported. He was saying that we have been counting how many people followed our conversion rituals which is not a true picture of who is actually converting.

Wilson

[Kevin Bowser]

Wilson,

However, those are just simultaneous events and not a "work" that does the "saving."
I wholeheartedly agree that the act of going to an altar is a work of grace. Far be it. However I think there is great value in the public act of repentance and salvation in terms of the local church. It is in this public act that we as mature Christian can come along side the new convert and encourage them and build them up.

Brothers and sisters, we urge you to warn those who are lazy. Encourage those who are timid. Take tender care of those who are weak. Be patient with everyone. I Th 5:14 NLT

God does the regenerating in response to what is in a person's heart.
I think this is a clear example of prevenient grace. I am not sure what is actually in my heart milliseconds before I ask for forgiveness and accept His infinite grace.

I am not necessarily at odds with you or the author. I just wonder about the salvation experience in solitude. Who is there to rejoice over the lost sheep? Who is there to encourage them and tell them that tomorrow may bring temptation like they have never seen before as Satan seeks to reclaim what he has lost? Those are some of the things that we used to do at the altar as we helped someone "pray through."

[Billie Goodson]

The "Calvinistic" content I was referring to was partially due to the statement:

But no external action, including a prayer, can bring about internal reality or force God’s hand.

This seemed to speak to me of election. However, I stated I would not be surprised to hear he was a Calvinist, but, not really "condemning" if he was. I find it interesting to discuss Calvinism, but, not relevant to my salvation. There are great theologians on the side of Calvin and Wesley, I am just a humble person that seeks to understand God. I cannot question the theology of those around me, just the application of it in my faith.

In regards to Kevin's comment -- I think there are great reasons for the public proclamation of faith that happens at the altar. But, there is only one soul that needs to rejoice in salvation - and that is mine (or whoever else is the receiver of grace). As for the encouragement part -- that is one of the reasons why we are commanded to fellowship. I do not question the good work at the altar, just who is doing it.

[Jerry Frank]

I think part of the perceived Calvinism is due to the "counting converts" aspects (though we are guilty of that, too).


I think a lot of non-Calvanist denominations are "guilty" of using Calvanist practices without carefully thinking through the theological impact on what their own positions really are. I recall my Lutheran sister thinking I was nutty for attending / supporting a Billy Graham Crusade. She had thought through the theology of the event. I hadn't. I think some of that has occurred because of so call non-denominational crusades or the work of groups like Youth for Christ, YWAM, etc. I certainly do not belittle the work of these groups but I approach them a little differently now that I understand the theology.

But again I suppose I digress from the thread topic.

Jerry

[Wilson L. Deaton]

However I think there is great value in the public act of repentance and salvation in terms of the local church. It is in this public act that we as mature Christian can come along side the new convert and encourage them and build them up.
...
Who is there to rejoice over the lost sheep? Who is there to encourage them and tell them that tomorrow may bring temptation like they have never seen before as Satan seeks to reclaim what he has lost? Those are some of the things that we used to do at the altar as we helped someone "pray through."

I think you are right that these are valuable and beneficial but to some extent I think we have to admit they are psychological (we are told that if we want to diet that we should tell all our friends, etc.) and cultural more than necessary.

Suppose you are witnessing to someone at work and they "convert" at home one evening. You will soon know! Your being with them to encourage, read Scripture with, pray with at lunchtime or after work, etc., on an on-going basis (just like your on-going long-haul witnessing before their conversion) will be far more beneficial than a warning you might give them at the altar after a service.

Furthermore, we have to remember that when you say, "we used to do at the altar as we helped," you are talking about a tradition that has been going on since before you and I were born but yet one that is relatively new in the history of Christianity. We have to get over the idea that the way we've done things is the one right way.

Wilson

[Kevin Bowser]

We have to get over the idea that the way we've done things is the one right way.
I agree.

But, we also need to get over the fact that just because it is old it is wrong, outdated and in need of a new modern way of doing it.

OK, enough from me. I am sounding like the old fuddy-duddy that I feel like sometimes! ;)

[Roland Hearn]

Some of the article phrasing left me wondering exactly what his starting point was although it was worded well enough for me to read exactly what I agree with into it. :)
John Wesley's conversion experience of feeling his "heart strangely warmed" to me is exactly the issue. Conversion is in fact an encounter of faith. It does not need any kind of formula to be successful. I have a wonderful friend who found Christ the first time she prayed, she prayed: "God help my children at school today," at a women's Bible study that she was attending out of interest, and was miraculously transformationaly saved in that second never to be the same again. God cannot be limited by our formulas.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

But, we also need to get over the fact that just because it is old it is wrong, outdated and in need of a new modern way of doing it.

Get over the "fact"?

Freudian?

I hope you mean we need to "get over the MYTH" ... ? :basic05

Wilson

[Roland Hearn]

I agree.

But, we also need to get over the fact that just because it is old it is wrong, outdated and in need of a new modern way of doing it.

OK, enough from me. I am sounding like the old fuddy-duddy that I feel like sometimes! ;)
Kevin,
As Wilson pointed out, however, that altar calls are a very new tradition. If we want to support the traditional way of bringing people to Christ we will be much more process oriented. Much of what the modern church is discovering is a balancing out of the excesses of the 19th century church. It is being hailed as the emerging church and condemned, often, as wanting to change for change sake but in fact much of the change is a "return" not an "abandoning."

[Kevin Bowser]

I hope you mean we need to "get over the MYTH" ... ?

Aha! So you admit it... It is a myth!!! :basic05

OK, OK. It was a slip! ;)

[Kevin Bowser]

Roland,

The "altar call" may be modern. But the concept is as old as the days when Jesus walked the Earth.

And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. Matthew 4:19
And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him. Matthew 9:9
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Matthew 16:24
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. Matthew 19:21
And as he passed by, he saw Levi the [son] of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. Mark 2:14
The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. John 1:43

I am not saying that these Scriptures are formulaic. I do, however, say that they are indicative of an act or a calling or a response from us that the Saviour is seeking. Jesus was calling Matthew, James and Philip in a visible and tangible way. Can it happen other ways? Absolutely! But, we are close to throwing out an act of commitment or visible response with the dirty bathwater of some traditions and convert counting.

In light of this, what is "returning" and what is "abandoning"?

[David Cash]

There is truth to the idea that if one believes in his heart, he is saved whether he takes any outward forms or not. There is also value to what this author calls "conversion rituals." The New Testament includes at least two of them. In the Jewish setting, they talked about believing and being baptized. Paul wrote to the Gentiles in Rome that if they believed in their hearts and confessed with their mouths they would be saved. In other places we see the word "believe" without any baptism, confession, prayer, etc.

It is the personal faith that counts, and salvation happens in the heart. At the same time, the "ritual" can become part of the faith. For instance, those of us who occasionally look at our own faith and think, "This weak little faith can't be enough to save me," can fall back on the promise that if we believe the facts of the gospel and confess with our mouth (Romans 10:9-10), we have saving faith.

And if you've ever been involved in evangelistic work, you've probably seen people pray the sinners prayer then continue in a life of deep sin as if nothing had happened. It isn't a matter of whether it's right or wrong to pray the sinner's prayer with someone. It's a matter of making sure that everybody has a chance to put their faith in Jesus alone for peace with God and eternal life. The circumstances surrounding that miracle are less important than the miracle.

David Cash

[Mike Schutz]

We count numbers because we desire a way to "keep score."

I watched for years as my pastor friends gritted their teeth and rose in district assembly to give their report. No matter what they said, in front of each delegate sat a booklet with the naked truth. Were budgets paid? Was there an increase in Sunday AM attendance? How many new members (especially by profession of faith)? It didn't matter what narrative you offered; the numbers told the "truth" of the effectiveness of your ministry.

I sat there wondering how it must feel. In my ministry role at the time, there were no numbers offered. I had no idea if I was effective as a college chaplain or not, but then, neither did anyone else. Chapel attendance was mandatory - so I had no way of measuring effectiveness there. And for every student who participated in a Bible study or compassionate ministry or missions trip there were two who did not. So, without any solid numbers to measure how well I was doing (and fully aware that any number of my faculty and administrative colleagues were of the opinion that every breath I took was a great waste of oxygen) I kept going, believing that the main thing was to be obedient and try to show God's love and grace.

Once we offer some way of keeping score, we offer a bottom line to know how we stand. And we also offer a bottom line for every believer. How can I know if I am "in" or "out?" Can't measure discipleship in a modern world of quantifying everything. So, we turn a real, personal response into a hoop to jump through to make sure you are IN the kingdom. Do this ONE thing and you are an INSIDER in the kingdom of God. And we get to count you!:rolleyes:

This may have seemed to work in the modern world, in the world of church culture. But what about the postmodern world where measuring is not as important as relationships? What do we count now?:eek:

[Kevin Bowser]

This may have seemed to work in the modern world, in the world of church culture. But what about the postmodern world where measuring is not as important as relationships? What do we count now?

In the words of Peter Scholtes:
We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love

or, it could be said like this:
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. -- John 13:35 KJV

[Marsha Lynn]

or, it could be said like this:
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. -- John 13:35 KJV

So do you have a good measuring stick for love? How about spiritual growth? How about movement toward the kingdom? If some of the 'out' people are less 'out' now than a year ago can they offset the 'in' people who somehow appear to be more 'out' than 'in' when set against the 'love' and 'spiritual growth' measuring sticks?

Maybe we should quit worrying about those who measure us by the wrong standards and be glad that they have yet to discover how to measure our true effectiveness in ministry? (Easy suggestion for one who is never personally associated with the numbers that go to district ass'y.)

:)

Marsha

[Kevin Bowser]

So do you have a good measuring stick for love?
I could probably come up with one if I wasn't so judgemental. :o

[Wilson L. Deaton]

So do you have a good measuring stick for love?

Someone thinks they have good measuring stick...

Our church took a survey on our health.

These are the questions the survey used to measure our "loving relationships":

How much time do you spend with friends from the church?
How often have you been invited by church members for dinner or coffee?
How often have you Invited church member for dinner or coffee?

These followed were answered with a scale of 1 to 5 (basically ranging from never to all the time):

I find it easy to tell other Christians about my feelings
Possible to talk about feelings and problems
There is a lot of joy and laughter in our church
The atmosphere is strongly influenced by praise and compliments
When someone in our church does a good job I tell them
When someone has a different opinion from me, I prefer to be silent

Wilson

[Marsha Lynn]

Someone thinks they have good measuring stick...

Our church took a survey on our health.

These are the questions the survey used to measure our "loving relationships":

How much time do you spend with friends from the church?
How often have you been invited by church members for dinner or coffee?
How often have you Invited church member for dinner or coffee?

These followed were answered with a scale of 1 to 5 (basically ranging from never to all the time):

I find it easy to tell other Christians about my feelings
Possible to talk about feelings and problems
There is a lot of joy and laughter in our church
The atmosphere is strongly influenced by praise and compliments
When someone in our church does a good job I tell them
When someone has a different opinion from me, I prefer to be silent

Wilson

Well, there you go then! You now have a baseline assessment. At the close of every church year you can do a fresh assessment and report whether your love numbers have gone up or down.

"Yes, our attendance is down 10% from last year, but note that our love is up 2.7%. Obviously, it was the unloving people who left."

:rolleyes:

Marsha

[Walter Palmer]

guys i'm not going to argue about the method of salvation. i simply remember the night of my conversion. it was july of 197 i had just graduated high school. i knew if i did not go to the altar that i would be walking away from God's invitation. but when was i saved this is an interesting question. i remember very well th efirst step to the altar, it is the hardest then the Spirit seemed to appear and took over then i could not get there fast enough. at this point i'm not sure if i was even aware of anyone else still in the sanctuary, i know there were others there. but, i do remember needing to pray before i was aware of forgiveness.

as for the heart attack issue on the way to the altar i know if that were to happen that our Lord is big enough to know the intent of the person's heart.

oh by the way did i mention i was saved in a nazarene church but the young man preaching was a Baptist ministeral student. i'm so glad our Lord is not hindered by the demominational lines we draw.

[Billie Goodson]

I hope that no one read into my posts that I have any issues with the altar....been to it myself. Sometimes that is where I feel God wants me to prey, but, at other times I don't think it is appropriate to wait until I can get to the altar. There is a lot to be said for the altar and the public profession that is made when one steps out and moves to it. I just don't think it is the only place people find salvation. I agree with Walter, God knows the heart.

[David Cash]

I read an interesting book for a class a few years ago about evangelism through small group Bible studies. The author recommended using the gospel of John. His approach was to let the people study and he was just there as the "expert" to fill in the background. (Not sure he used the word expert, but you get the idea.) In that context, people were getting saved quietly, maybe at home, then telling him or the rest of the group what had happened later.

Sorry. I loaned out the book and it hasn't come back. Can't remember the title or the author's name. I'm not knocking altars or other common evangelistic approaches, but this also sounds valid.

David Cash

[Meghan Schoonover]

But what about the postmodern world where measuring is not as important as relationships? What do we count now?:eek:

My pastor was talking about this recently...counting conversations instead of conversions (since, as we know, that's not a fixed number no matter HOW you count!). I believe he was quoting Brian MacLaren, but anyways, it's really got me thinking lately about my conversations.

[Larry Wilson]

“Deepen Your Understanding of Conversion.” by Mark Harris

What does this say about the way we do evangelism?

I've had many discussions along this line with a young man who is preparing for the evangelistic ministry. And, it is absolutely crucial.

As I recollect, the great commission says nothing about going into all the world to make converts, but to make disciples. I suppose conversion is implied in the making of disciples and in baptizing, but they are not the same. See how the results of the Jesus Film showings are reported. Number of viewers, number of "decisions," number in serious follow-up. The number that is not given is those who become committed followers of Christ -- disciples. That may be measured in part by those who are incorporated into church membership, but is not exactly the same. This is the number I'm most interested in.

I have long been captivated by the way Jesus dealt with each person, or group of people, as he presented the gospel. No two encounters are the same, which says to me that we cannot rely on any single method, expect a universal response, or demand a particular act or expression of faith. "Follow me," seems to be common which is quite different from most altar calls or personal evangelism presentations. Even the oft given standard, "Ye must be born again," was given only to Nicodemus. What about the "rich young ruler?" I haven't heard that in any altar calls recently? How about, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more?" Or, how could Jesus forgive the thief on the cross without saying the sinner's prayer?

Then there are the other conversions. When did the Ethiopian Eunuch come to faith? Somewhere, in the explanation of the scriptures, the Holy Spirit engendered faith in his heart! Wow. And then there was that guy from Tarsus on his way to Damascus. Where was his repentance? What a model for evangelism, huh? How about the Philippian jailer and his household?

We'll never succeed in putting the Holy Spirit into a box or reducing his work to a formula or ritual. The church altar, the summer camp fire side, the living room couch, the car, the office break room, the log in the woods -- a blast of holy light, a heart strangely warmed, a long counseling session, a shouting spell at the front of the church, a quiet prayer with a friend or parent -- the Four Spiritual Laws, the Roman Road, the Jesus Film, fiery preaching, sound teaching, passionate testimony, the sinner's prayer -- YES to them all.

Oh, and lest I forget -- the second balcony of a theater in San Francisco! Yes, personal to me.

That said, I do think that we can abort the Holy Spirit's work in our thrust to press for a decision or settle for a superficial expression of faith. I've led people in the sinner's prayer and seen it as shallow, and with others very deep and profound. I've seen useless, self-centered tears at the altar and I've also seen them come up in glory on their face! Genuine faith cannot be measured by any particular emotional response.

Well, this does need to be discussed continually as we seek the best way to bring the gospel to people and to bring them to the point of saving faith and nurture them into mature disciples.

[Billie Goodson]

I have long been captivated by the way Jesus dealt with each person, or group of people, as he presented the gospel. No two encounters are the same, which says to me that we cannot rely on any single method, expect a universal response, or demand a particular act or expression of faith. "Follow me," seems to be common which is quite different from most altar calls or personal evangelism presentations.

A couple of years ago I read the book, "How to Be Like Jesus" by Pat Williams. I was impressed by two things in the book; 1)Jesus "went" to people, both spiritually and physically. He met them where they were, and he met their physical/emotional need - then addressed their spiritual need. 2) Jesus was a great listener -- something that many do not take enough time to apply themselves too.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Timing is everything. I just threw out my copy of John Engels, "What's Gone Wrong with the Harvest," in which he constructs an evangelism scale on which every person can be spiritually placed, whether that person has no concept of God, to that person who has crossed over into eternal "reward", having fully faced by faith his Creator. Years later, the late Paul Orjala put forward his "modified Engels' scale", in his NPH church growth book, "Get Ready to Grow".

Engels - and Orjala - maintain that evangelism is taking place way before a person "gets saved", as well as following. It's simply that historically there is a time when a major realization occurs and a decision is either made or embraced. That event us often called conversion. Their point is that all the process is evangelism, but more easily humanly recorded when one is "saved" or "joins the church".

Typically we celebrate those churches and movements that "collect" the most of those decisions. Seems like our imperative is more along the lines of making disciples than counting decisions. While it would be possible for us to selfishly take our own blood pressure to the extent that we let others around us keep on dying, it also is appropriate to occasionally monitor growth or health, especially in the context of decades or clusters of churches.

There still seems to be some import to the "adding to the kingdom" somehow similar to the day of Pentecost. Are we now - or is somebody - thinking that becoming a part of the kingdom is less important than it used to be?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Are we now - or is somebody - thinking that becoming a part of the kingdom is less important than it used to be?

Somebody might be thinking that, but not me!

I just think we have been too rigid in defining how and when that happens.

I simply believe that we can usher people into the Kingdom (yes I know that God saves people, not me) without insisting on altar calls or begging people to "repeat this prayer after me." Those methods are simply "tools."

Wilson