a gift from my boss: wine [Archive]

Doug Kitchen

25th December 2006, 04:22 PM (16:22)

Yes, cook with it! It lends such an unusual flavor to some things that you just don't get with spices. Long ago I acquired some somehow (decades ago), and it gave beef a really different flavor. No idea what kind it was.

Then, years later, the nursing home meal given to volunteers was chicken merlot (merlot is some sort of wine, too, I believe). That chicken was really good!

If it is white wine, try chicken marsala (garlic, mushrooms, and wine). If it is red, I think we tried beef burgundy.

Somehow it seems appropriate that a boss give wine, since many employees whine the rest of the year. ;)

Doug

Gina Stevenson

26th December 2006, 01:03 AM (01:03)

Thanks. You found my "oops" ... had not had it in so long (it was in Phoenix) that I forgot its name, and remembered the wrong name of a wine I'd seen in grocery ads (one store here constantly "features" them with various menu items in their ads). It was, I do believe, chicken "marsala" we had for lunch at the nursing home, not that other name I picked out of the air with the right first letter. ;) 'Boy, am I hungry for something like that again ... love garlic, anyway ......................

If it is white wine, try chicken marsala (garlic, mushrooms, and wine). If it is red, I think we tried beef burgundy.

Somehow it seems appropriate that a boss give wine, since many employees whine the rest of the year. ;)

Doug

Diane Likens

26th December 2006, 04:18 AM (04:18)

Shrimp scampi, too! Loads of garlic, tons of butter and a splash of wine (I use white zin).

Yum!

Wilson L. Deaton

26th December 2006, 11:08 AM (11:08)

maybe I will cook with it.

Bob,

This was an evangelistic opportunity missed... Just think about it. You could have refused the gift outright, or better yet, ceremoniously dumped it out in front of him. Either way you could have ranted about how this gift is proof he is going to hell, etc. Surely after such a display and lecture he would want to get saved.... ;)

It's sad but I've known Christians who would have handled it exactly that way and felt very smug and proud of themselves for it! :basic04

Wilson

Billy Cox

26th December 2006, 02:11 PM (14:11)

Bob,

This was an evangelistic opportunity missed... Just think about it. You could have refused the gift outright, or better yet, ceremoniously dumped it out in front of him. Either way you could have ranted about how this gift is proof he is going to hell, etc. Surely after such a display and lecture he would want to get saved.... ;)

It's sad but I've known Christians who would have handled it exactly that way and felt very smug and proud of themselves for it! :basic04

Wilson

Wilson,

Are you being sarcastic? I know lots of people that just needed a little more judgment and condemnation in order to spur them to repentance.

-Billy

Andrea Larabee

26th December 2006, 02:13 PM (14:13)

maybe I will cook with it.

If it is a red wine cook a roast in it. It's very, very good and tender!

Wilson L. Deaton

26th December 2006, 05:23 PM (17:23)

Are you being sarcastic?

First paragraph: Yes. (That was the meaning behind the winking smiley.)

I know lots of people that just needed a little more judgment and condemnation in order to spur them to repentance.

We must not know many of the same people... :basic05

Wilson

John Kennedy

27th December 2006, 01:09 AM (01:09)

Bob,

This was an evangelistic opportunity missed... Just think about it. You could have refused the gift outright, or better yet, ceremoniously dumped it out in front of him. Either way you could have ranted about how this gift is proof he is going to hell, etc. Surely after such a display and lecture he would want to get saved.... ;)

It's sad but I've known Christians who would have handled it exactly that way and felt very smug and proud of themselves for it! :basic04

Wilson

It's reassuring that in these days of compromise and drift, some are still sticking resolutely to the old paths.

Jerry Frank

27th December 2006, 11:25 AM (11:25)

Billy Cox

27th December 2006, 02:01 PM (14:01)

OK, I will be the one to turn this into a theological discussion from that of recipe suggestions.

You could serve it to family and friends along with your turkey leftovers. We served ours at the Christmas meal. No one was forced to partake. No one got drunk. Everyone enjoyed the entire meal.

Jerry

The Nazarenes were very much in the center of the temperance movement which had absolutely zero tolerance for alcohol. The temperance people would have even avoided the brand of root beer that comes in brown glass bottles because it 'looks like' a beer.

Even today, you can hear the echoes of the temperance movement in some of these threads.

Jerry Frank

27th December 2006, 03:19 PM (15:19)

I am a former Free Methodist, though from the days after that of the temperance movement. My wife however grew up with it. She excitedly repeated the songs and sayings and took "the pledge" at age 5. Of course at that age she had no idea what a pledge was or what alcohol was or what it could do to her or to others. While I can understand the underlying principals behind it, such activity with children on the part of the temperance movement is incomprehensible to me.

My wife feels no obligation of course to stand behind that useless pledge and today feels free to have a glass of wine with her meal.

I respect those who believe that abstinence is the correct path to follow but if this is to be a theological discussion, I must say that I find no direct Biblical foundation for it any more than I can find basis for not wearing jewellry and other such works based excesses of the Holiness Movement in the 30s, 40s, and 50s, and to some extent, I suppose, even now.

Of course there are arguments that can be made in favour of abstinence but these are better made from a social view rather than a Biblical one.

Jerry

Bob Carabbio

27th December 2006, 03:42 PM (15:42)

Gee - and all I got was a turkey and a box of grapefruit (Which, since I'm on Tricor I can't eat - shazbot!).

It was actually the charismatic period - '67-'79 or so that got me loose of the old Baptist/Holiness/AoG total abstinance hang-ups. And since I'm not "tempted" by alcohol it's never been an issue.

My Maiden aunt and my mother were both members in good standing of the WCTU. Natually, lips that touched alcohol would never TOUCH THEIRS!!!

On the other hand, My uncle Joe was in the Liquor commission in Boston and got a LOT of "tips" - some of which he'd pass on to my father who was a Christmas and Easter Catholic like most of the Carabbios.

So, obviously the "bottled goods" weren't coming into the house - but they found homes in the garage rafters in unmarked boxes. A LOT of unmarked boxes. Dad spent quite a bit of time in the garage. I never saw him tipsy, though. I don't know to this day if Mom or her sister ever knew what was out there.

Of course now I'm a Deacon, and deacons in the AOG are STILL "expected" to avoid demon rum like the plague. SO it'll be a while until my next beer, I guess. Oh well.

Joyce Miller

27th December 2006, 03:56 PM (15:56)

Of course there are arguments that can be made in favour of abstinence but these are better made from a social view rather than a Biblical one.

Jerry

I can think of a Biblical view for abstinence for those of us in the ministry and who teach at the Nazarene institutions. We promise not to drink, and keeping one's word is a Biblical principle.

Jerry Frank

27th December 2006, 04:31 PM (16:31)

Certainly I agree with the substance of your point. However, the theological / Biblical principal in this case has to do with not lying rather than not drinking.

My wife made a vow to NEVER allow alcohol to touch her lips but she did so at age 5, not understanding what alcohol was or what the pledge meant. I think you would agree that she is not bound by that pledge nor living in sin because she now has a glass of wine on occasion. (I use her as an example simply because she lived through and experienced the Temperance Movement but I did not.)

As an aside, I find it interesting that the very word in the name of the Movement, "temperance" implies moderation, not total abstinence.

Jerry

Anita F. Henck

27th December 2006, 04:32 PM (16:32)

I'm confused.

Why is use of wine a theological principle?

No, I don't drink. The use of alcohol has never been of particular interest to me. Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing!

Yes, by choice I joined the Nazarene church, a denomination with "no alcohol" guidelines as a special rule. I honor my word on this, as a member of my denomination and as someone who tries to keep her word. And, when I was employed by a Nazarene college, I honored it as a member of that community. And, in fact, part of my duties including enforcing it for students who were members of our community (most of whom were underage and for whom drinking was also illegal). It was in that role that I found out just how conflicted the people of our denomination are on this. And, I was pained to observe just how much difficulty we create for our young people by seeing their parents drink while members of a church that has a stance against it. Somehow we expect our colleges and universities to enforce rules that aren't practiced in many local churches.

But, I don't see it as a theological principle as I understand theology. What am I missing on this discussion and its inclusion on the theology board?

==anita==

Barb Bouldrey

27th December 2006, 04:42 PM (16:42)

The temperance movement was before my time. It saddens me to think that anyone would consider a Christian who believes it is best not to drink alcoholic beverages as having a hang-up. And it saddens me to see the holiness church put down for taking a stand against alcohol in the past.

We have had this discussion so many times in the previous years, but there are always new Naznetters who have not been a part of that discussion. So it needs discussed again.

Yes, there are more practical, social reasons not to drink. And abstinence is not mentioned in the Bible.

My father was an alcoholic and I have some very bad memories of how he acted and how we lived and things he did because of his drinking. That, alone, is reason enough to avoid all acohol for me and to advise others to do so.

Personally, I cannot stand the smell or taste of any wine or drink. As a teenager I babysat for families who would fix mixed drinks before they went out for the evening and ask me to clean up after they were gone. As a curious teen, I would sip the leftovers and found it distasteful and useless. When is Germany I sipped the wine served with a meal in a restaurant and had the same reaction. I did not like even the smell of it sitting on my table, so moved it.

But back to the original post....

When we arrived in Germany, the girl Stephen was dating gave John a bottle of white wine made in her village. We graciously accepted it and brought it home. I found a recipe using white wine and made it. It only called for 1/4 cup so there was not much taste to the dish because of the wine.

The funny story is: I do not have a core screw. I tried using a steak knife to pull it out but succeeded in pushing it into the wine. AND THE WINE SPLASHED OUT AND GAVE ME A SHOWER!!!

I had to take a shower while the dish cooked since it was in my hair and we were going to a school concert that night. It was really funny.

The cork broke into pieces inside the wine, so I dumped the rest of it down the drain, washed the bottle and kept it until Stephen and Anja broke up. Then I pitched it.

If I were Bob, I would write the boss a note and say, "Thank you for the Christmas gift. Since I do not drink alcoholic beverages I will find recipes to cook or give it to a friend who will enjoy it."

When Stephen was home last week he wanted to cook for us. He bought white wine. I did not like the taste of the dish...the wine taste was too strong. He dumped the rest down the drain after one meal because he knew we would not drink it and he does not either. He knew I really did not want it in my house and he too had pushed the cork down into the wine. LOL

Barb

Jerry Frank

27th December 2006, 04:45 PM (16:45)

Why is use of wine a theological principle?

<SNIP>

But, I don't see it as a theological principle as I understand theology. What am I missing on this discussion and its inclusion on the theology board?

==anita==

I guess that Bob will have to answer that one. Because of the posting in this forum, I assumed he was after some discussion regarding the Biblical principals of how to deal with the wine rather than obtaining recipes for same. :)

Jerry

Jerry Frank

27th December 2006, 05:30 PM (17:30)

It saddens me to think that anyone would consider a Christian who believes it is best not to drink alcoholic beverages as having a hang-up. And it saddens me to see the holiness church put down for taking a stand against alcohol in the past.

Barb

I hope you didn't interpret my comments as suggesting that people are hung-up with the issue. In fact I stated that I respected such decisions made by others. I do however still believe that the historical stand of various churches on the issue, Nazarene or other, was a reflection of their stand on other legalistic issues that were also going on at the same time.

In that context, I think it is wrong for any church to make abstinence a prerequisite for membership. I think it is pefectly acceptable for churches to take formal positions on issues - alcohol, gambling, abortion, etc. and to make this clearly known to potential members. I also think that it is OK to stipulate conditions for use of facilities such as no alcohol to be served in a church auditorium or none to be on a church college campus. But I think it is wrong to make compliance a standard for membership. That's not intended as a put-down. It is just my opinion.

My mother was an abstainer because of what she saw in her alcoholic step-father, not because her church obligated her to conform.

Jerry

Hans Deventer

28th December 2006, 12:52 AM (00:52)

In that context, I think it is wrong for any church to make abstinence a prerequisite for membership. I think it is perfectly acceptable for churches to take formal positions on issues - alcohol, gambling, abortion, etc. and to make this clearly known to potential members. I also think that it is OK to stipulate conditions for use of facilities such as no alcohol to be served in a church auditorium or none to be on a church college campus. But I think it is wrong to make compliance a standard for membership. That's not intended as a put-down. It is just my opinion.

Agreed. We must be very careful regarding prerequisites for membership anyway. I think there are really only two: adherence to the basics of the Christian faith, and a sincere willingness to practice this faith in the world and among this specific group of believers.

Wilson L. Deaton

28th December 2006, 01:07 AM (01:07)

I think there are really only two: adherence to the basics of the Christian faith,

A good idea... But there is a problem identifying what is "basic" and what is not.

The other day in a Bible study I mentioned, "Suppose we disagree on a minor issue like ... " The first response was, "I would have thought that to be a major issue."

Wilson

Hans Deventer

28th December 2006, 01:22 AM (01:22)

A good idea... But there is a problem identifying what is "basic" and what is not.

What about our Articles of Faith? They are in our Constitution for a reason, right? Or would you want to narrow it down even more?

Hans Deventer

28th December 2006, 01:32 AM (01:32)

The other day in a Bible study I mentioned, "Suppose we disagree on a minor issue like ... " The first response was, "I would have thought that to be a major issue."

Sure. My first question would be, so you believe someone goes to hell unless (s)he has a right opinion about this? Because that is what distinguishes a major from a minor issue.

I'm always surprised that the church isn't clearer about this.

Mike Schutz

28th December 2006, 08:35 AM (08:35)

What about our Articles of Faith? They are in our Constitution for a reason, right? Or would you want to narrow it down even more?

I know that this is taking this thread down a different path, but...

we have many members who would not accept every statement in the articles of faith - even those statements that come directly from the ancient creeds. The one that comes to mind is that on the virgin birth from article II.

Anita is correct in her post. Many of our young people reach young adulthood conflicted about the alcohol issue. Even moreso conflicted about the holiness issue: is holiness about behavioral restrictions (such as this), or about being separate from the world (which, for the most part seems to them just as arbitrary when it comes to where we draw the line), or Christlikeness (which seems impossible), or agape love in relationships (which they have not seen demonstrated in their home or their local church).

And what about all the folks these young people have seen who testify claiming sanctification, yet who do not live accordingly?

Sorry for the rant.:o

Grace and peace,
Mike

Hans Deventer

28th December 2006, 09:10 AM (09:10)

I know that this is taking this thread down a different path, but...

My fault. I'll start a new one because I do believe it is an important question!

Jerry Frank

28th December 2006, 11:26 AM (11:26)

Anita is correct in her post. Many of our young people reach young adulthood conflicted about the alcohol issue.

Part of your questioning has been taken on with Hans' new thread. However, I wanted to deal with this comment here.

There was a time historically when Christians were not conflicted about the alcohol issue. I was trying to find some good historical material on this on the Internet and came up with the following link. It is a chapter from a book whose overall theme is not related to this thread and may be controversial. However, if you get past that through to the relation of the history of how the church has dealt with alcohol in the past, you will get some good insights.

http://www.ccel.us/missingfromaction.ch7.html

The Holiness Movement (and its connections to the Temperance Movement) as we know it today is quite different from its Wesleyan Methodist roots. I don't know if John Wesley was a social drinker but I do know that he would have used alcoholic wine for communion. Many of our Christian "heroes" such as Martin Luther and C.S. Lewis are known to have been social drinkers.

So, with an understanding of the history of these movements, one can see why young people might be conflicted by the teachings of churches who are are part of the modern Holiness Movement. Is that the fault of the church doctrine or is it the fault of those of us who will have a drink now and then? Or is it just something that is and that we should each deal with on a personal level in educating the young people?

I hope I have made sense with this. I have kind of rambled a bit.

Jerry

David Cash

1st January 2007, 02:25 PM (14:25)

Agreed. We must be very careful regarding prerequisites for membership anyway. I think there are really only two: adherence to the basics of the Christian faith, and a sincere willingness to practice this faith in the world and among this specific group of believers.

You're probably including this in the above, Hans, but I feel strongly about one other requirement. There must be the reality of a Christian experience. No one is qualified for membership in any church unless he or she has been born again.

David Cash

Hans Deventer

2nd January 2007, 02:18 AM (02:18)

You're probably including this in the above, Hans, but I feel strongly about one other requirement. There must be the reality of a Christian experience. No one is qualified for membership in any church unless he or she has been born again.

David Cash

Yes. But how will you tell one has been born again but by an "adherence to the basics of the Christian faith, and a sincere willingness to practice this faith in the world and among this specific group of believers"?

Dennis M. Scott

2nd January 2007, 04:57 PM (16:57)

The church changes. In those olden days, the COTN was primarily a collection of missions to the poor, and especially among those whose lives had been ruined by alcoholism. Although less than ten years old, the church I pastor now has as its primary ministry target group individuals transitioning back to society from drug and alcohol programs. I don't think there are many of us who are especially legalistic about drinking, but neither am I aware of any who do, out of respect and support of those with whom we work, and whom we love. I wish our not drinking took care of the issue for those with whom we work. If I were to point to scripture, it would be more along the lines of not causing one's brother to stumble, and being my brother's keeper.

Were I the chastizing type - ok, maybe I am from time to time - I would ask why it is that so many "holiness" people don't bother to work with the oppressed and down-trodden anymore? Why have the hearts of God's people turned cold to those whose lives are messed up with drugs and alcohol? How is it that my "freedom in Christ" to imbibe also give me freedom to turn away those Christ came to set free?

I recognize that when I point a finger at someone else there are at least three of my own fingers pointing back at myself, and it wouldn't take a genius to discover inconsistencies in my own life. I just don't find that a lot of those who work with recovering alcoholics spend much time or energy ranting on about how you can't prooftext abstinence. Come work with us in the alleys and smack houses of America, and there might be a different intellectual pursuits.

Alcoholism is hardly confined to the poor and disenfranchised - but that's a different thread.

Drink to you heart's content. My prayer is that your heart will discover higher contentment.

Bob, I wouldn't say anything to your boss except thanks for his kind gift, and that you are grateful for the opportunity to work with him.

David Cash

2nd January 2007, 06:55 PM (18:55)

Yes. But how will you tell one has been born again but by an "adherence to the basics of the Christian faith, and a sincere willingness to practice this faith in the world and among this specific group of believers"?

Good point, Hans. That is how we recognize other Christians. I also would like to hear a personal testimony prior to taking someone into the church. (And I agree, the testimony without the lifestyle and beliefs to back it up doesn't prove much.)

David Cash

Hans Deventer

12th January 2007, 03:42 PM (15:42)

maybe I will cook with it.

Or follow the word of God:

Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.

Laurie Florence

12th January 2007, 06:21 PM (18:21)

Or follow the word of God:

Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.

Thank you Hans. What wonderful advice for a rainy Friday evening! :basic05

Wilson L. Deaton

12th January 2007, 06:28 PM (18:28)

Or follow the word of God:

Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.

As I and all my Sunday School teachers, youth leaders, pastors, professors, etc., used to say, "But--"

Wilson

Lindsay Martin

12th January 2007, 06:41 PM (18:41)

As I and all my Sunday School teachers, youth leaders, pastors, professors, etc., used to say, "But--"

Wilson

But... What Wilson??:basic02
- Lindsay

Wilson L. Deaton

12th January 2007, 06:46 PM (18:46)

But... What Wilson??:basic02
- Lindsay

There are dozens of variations but the bottom line is, "But there must be some reason that verse doesn't mean what it says!" ;)

Wilson

David Cash

15th January 2007, 09:12 PM (21:12)

Hans Deventer

16th January 2007, 01:10 AM (01:10)

Before you drink too much of that wine with gladness, I'd recommend that you do some historical research and make sure that the alcohol content isn't significantly higher than the stuff Ecclesiastes 9:7 speaks of.

I'm sorry guys, but I'm still not convinced that drinking alcohol pleases God.

I'm glad you are apologizing. Apology accepted. :basic05

You see, the Bible has warnings against getting drunk and stories of people that got drunk form wine. Now it seems to me this means we are talking about stuff one can get drunk from, which implicates there is enough alcohol in it to produce that effect. So it will be more or less the stuff we know. We probably won't be able to tell the exact alcohol percentage, but that is hardly the point.

Now of course this Scripture verse was posted by me rather jokingly. I don't think anyone should start drinking because of this verse, not at all. Especially considering the damage the abuse of alcohol has caused and is still causing.

I'm just contending that there is not only abuse, there can also be proper use of something God has given to enjoy. But as with almost anything in this life, it can easily be abused if we seek happiness from it rather than from our Creator, be it food, work, sex, alcohol, relationships, positions, whatever.

Freedom comes from making God's love for us the centre of our being. That is the "truth that will set us free". As long as we build on other stuff, we are still in slavery and it will be our downfall, but for the grace of God.

The other day there was an article in our newspaper that wine, when used in moderation, is good against heart diseases and lowers the blood sugar level for diabetics. The latter is interesting for me, being a diabetic.

Dennis M. Scott

16th January 2007, 10:22 PM (22:22)

When Al came to faith, it was a huge miracle. He was a changed man. He had been abusive, a womanizer, and a bully. He had worked his way up the corporate ladder and become VP of an international bank. He was led to the Lord one of his underlings who simply had a quiet sweet testimony. When Jesus came into his life, it was like night and day. He became a tender, compassionate, gentle teddy bear for Jesus. He began to attend church, loved his pastor (me!), and was passionate about sharing his faith. He was of substantial body mass, and most of us will forever remember his baptism, which took place in the pool at his very upscale home.

Al and Sue, his wife, began membership classes. During discussions he brought up drinking, and it was like he hit a stone wall. He said he didn't have a problem with any other of the special rules - as they were called then - but that he just couldn't see anything wrong having an occasional glass of wine at dinner. He said that as long as the church maintained that position, he just couldn't join the church. I was crushed - and yes, I know it's not all about me, but I really enjoyed Al and Sue, and I wanted them to be a part of our new church. This hurt, but Al was pretty set in his decision. Just a few weeks later, Al told me he had taken a super retirement package, and they were moving to Canada, where he was owner of a hockey team. As they left, they promised to keep in touch, and to visit twice a year in their motor home. They professed their continued love for "our little church."

About a year later, Linda and I visited them while we were on vacation, and we had a blast. The first evening we were together, Al said, "Pastor, I need to talk with you about why we didnt' join the church. I wasn't honest with you. It wasn't just an occasional glass of wine at dinner. It usually started at dinner - every night - but it never stopped there. It never stops with just a bottle of wine. I don't remember the last evening I haven't had at least two bottles. As much as I loved our little church, and wanted to be a member, I couldn't give it up. I'm a man of my word, and I wasn't going to join the church when down deep I knew I had a problem. We've joined a church in our community where even the priest drinks, but it's just not the same."

That story doesn't exactly wrap up this thread, but for several years now, I never hear someone talk about the right to have an occasional glass of wine without thinking about Al and Sue. What he initially said to me was right - there's nothing wrong with it, but it represented something terribly wrong. It was bigger than he was, and stronger than his walk with the Lord.

I don't for a minute think that Al's problem is true for all free thinkers, but somehow it seemed perinent here.

Hans Deventer

17th January 2007, 02:14 AM (02:14)

I don't for a minute think that Al's problem is true for all free thinkers, but somehow it seemed perinent here.

What always comes up in my mind is the why. Why was he drinking? People who drink that much, drink for a reason. If that hole in your life isn't filled by Christ (no matter how great your testimony looks), you have a problem of which alcohol is only a symptom. And indeed that is what he says:

As much as I loved our little church, and wanted to be a member, I couldn't give it up. I'm a man of my word, and I wasn't going to join the church when down deep I knew I had a problem.

Had he been so honest as to share his problem with you AND had he been willing to let Christ's love heal him at even that deep level of personal pain, he would have been able to let the alcohol go and join the church.

I guess this is one of the main reasons for me to keep writing on the subject. It is good to warn about the dangers of alcohol, and by all means, we should!

But we should not fool ourselves. Holes need to be filled. Pain seeks medication. And it will find it in some destructive way UNLESS Jesus is allowed to heal us. So it is not about putting up "don't ..... " signs, as needed as they are. It is about daring to become vulnerable and having Jesus bring healing.

Dennis M. Scott

17th January 2007, 07:28 AM (07:28)

we should not fool ourselves. Holes need to be filled. Pain seeks medication. And it will find it in some destructive way UNLESS Jesus is allowed to heal us. So it is not about putting up "don't ..... " signs, as needed as they are. It is about daring to become vulnerable and having Jesus bring healing.

Al's conversion experience was obviously dramatic, but the Lord's continuing work was equally evident. Tragically, rather than deal with underlying issues, he moved into a setting where his symptoms weren't interpretted as anything of concern.

Hans Deventer

17th January 2007, 09:09 AM (09:09)

Al's conversion experience was obviously dramatic, but the Lord's continuing work was equally evident. Tragically, rather than deal with underlying issues, he moved into a setting where his symptoms weren't interpretted as anything of concern.

I don't know, Dennis. Anyone would consider 2 bottles a day as a problem. But he kept it secret, as they mostly do, trying to fool themselves above all. That is why AA meeting start with "Hi, I am George and I am an alcoholic".

Gina Stevenson

17th January 2007, 09:11 AM (09:11)

What always comes up in my mind is the why. Why was he drinking? People who drink that much, drink for a reason.

< ................. >

I guess this is one of the main reasons for me to keep writing on the subject.

< ................. >

But we should not fool ourselves. Holes need to be filled. Pain seeks medication. And it will find it in some destructive way UNLESS Jesus is allowed to heal us. So it is not about putting up "don't ..... " signs, as needed as they are. It is about daring to become vulnerable and having Jesus bring healing.

"Thanks" wasn't strong enough. An "Amen!" is needed here.

Roland Hearn

17th January 2007, 04:25 PM (16:25)

What always comes up in my mind is the why. Why was he drinking? People who drink that much, drink for a reason. If that hole in your life isn't filled by Christ (no matter how great your testimony looks), you have a problem of which alcohol is only a symptom. And indeed that is what he says:

As much as I loved our little church, and wanted to be a member, I couldn't give it up. I'm a man of my word, and I wasn't going to join the church when down deep I knew I had a problem.

Had he been so honest as to share his problem with you AND had he been willing to let Christ's love heal him at even that deep level of personal pain, he would have been able to let the alcohol go and join the church.

I guess this is one of the main reasons for me to keep writing on the subject. It is good to warn about the dangers of alcohol, and by all means, we should!

But we should not fool ourselves. Holes need to be filled. Pain seeks medication. And it will find it in some destructive way UNLESS Jesus is allowed to heal us. So it is not about putting up "don't ..... " signs, as needed as they are. It is about daring to become vulnerable and having Jesus bring healing.

Boy you sure said that well Hans - that is great stuff.

Hans Deventer

17th January 2007, 05:01 PM (17:01)

Boy you sure said that well Hans - that is great stuff.

Roland, even the other day I was saying to Hannie, I have spent all my life in church, I'm 49 years old and it seems as if it is only in the last few years that I'm finally starting to get it. With much thanks to Philip Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace", Henri Nouwen, Brennan Manning, a weird Texan called Brad Mercer and some guy named Roland Hearn that you may have heard about :basic05

David Cash

17th January 2007, 09:41 PM (21:41)

As you can tell, Hans, this is one of my hot button issues.

But I agree, we need to help people come to the place where Jesus takes away the need for drunkenness. In my case, I suspect that if I really thought he wanted me to drink at all, I'd get carried away.

David Cash

Hans Deventer

18th January 2007, 01:04 AM (01:04)

As you can tell, Hans, this is one of my hot button issues.

As it is one of mine :basic03

But I agree, we need to help people come to the place where Jesus takes away the need for drunkenness. In my case, I suspect that if I really thought he wanted me to drink at all, I'd get carried away.

By all means, then don't! It was really kind of jokingly, I don't believe we must drink at all. If anything, Jesus came to set us free, not to bind us to that kind of rules and regulations. Paul is pretty clear about this:

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Rom 14:7)

Dennis M. Scott

18th January 2007, 05:40 PM (17:40)

As it is one of mine :basic03

By all means, then don't! It was really kind of jokingly, I don't believe we must drink at all. If anything, Jesus came to set us free, not to bind us to that kind of rules and regulations. Paul is pretty clear about this:

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Rom 14:7)

I think that I'm pretty free on this issue, but most of my good wine illustrations come down on one side of the matter. Likely I'd do well to preach a little more on the wedding miracle.

John Kennedy

18th January 2007, 10:11 PM (22:11)

That'll be OK as long as you make it quite clear that the wine in question was, as the Dakes Bible tells us, quite clearly non-alcoholic.

Jerry Frank

18th January 2007, 10:54 PM (22:54)

That'll be OK as long as you make it quite clear that the wine in question was, as the Dakes Bible tells us, quite clearly non-alcoholic.

According to many apologists, the Dakes Study Bible is not very highly rated for accurate commentary. See for example http://www.equip.org/free/JAD100.htm

If his comments are questionable in some areas, I assume it could be (at least in an authoritative sense) in this area as well. His commentary comes under attack from many directions - so much so that there is even a web forum similar to Naznet designed to counter such attacks.

Jerry

John Kennedy

19th January 2007, 01:05 AM (01:05)

Jerry -

My bad. I failed to put a TIC after my post. I'm well aware of Dakes" deficiencies (that's one of those wonderful alliterative phrases that sort of roll easily off the tongue).

Brad Mercer

19th January 2007, 03:05 AM (03:05)

It feels incredibly valuing to find my name in this list, so my mind has gone back to it a time or two in the last couple of days. It occurred to me again today how much I owe to NazNet. I discovered Yancey through Emmy Hearn, whom I met on NazNet. She recommended "What's So Amazing About Grace" to Karen, to Karen's great profit, during a very difficult time in Karen's life. I first became familiar with the writings of Henri Nouwen through Hans, whom, of course, I met on NazNet. He gave me a copy of Nouwen's book on the prodigal son and this Sunday I'm re-preaching a sermon I wrote on that story, borrowing some of Nouwen's themes. It speaks to my core fears and aspirations. I first heard of Brennan Manning when Nelson Bradford, whom I met on NazNet, sent me a cassette tape of a message Manning delivered at Olivet. I started listening to it on the way over to Roland's house when we still lived in Texas, and I had to sit out in front of Roland's house in the car and delay going in, because tears were just streaming down my face as Manning talked about God as an Abba Daddy, and I needed to hear the end of the message. And of course, I met Roland on NazNet.

It's funny. When we're young and really utterly dependent we tend to think we're utterly self-sufficient and owe no one anything. All grown up and middle-aged, now, I more and more recognize myself to have a whole mountain range of debts, especially emotional and spiritual, that I can never hope to repay. And somehow it seems good.

Love,
Brad

With much thanks to Philip Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace", Henri Nouwen, Brennan Manning, a weird Texan called Brad Mercer and some guy named Roland Hearn that you may have heard about :basic05

Hans Deventer

19th January 2007, 03:21 AM (03:21)

It feels incredibly valuing to find my name in this list

LOL! Well, you know that love sometimes expresses itself in strange ways. :basic03 But seriously, you are incredibly valued, us you know. For some reason, the discussion Erik and I had in your kitchen still stands out. Don't even remember what was said (though I know it has shaped me), but the moment itself was so precious.

It's funny. When we're young and really utterly dependent we tend to think we're utterly self-sufficient and owe no one anything. All grown up and middle-aged, now, I more and more recognize myself to have a whole mountain range of debts, especially emotional and spiritual, that I can never hope to repay. And somehow it seems good.

Amen! I and find myself wondering why it took me 48 years to come to see the heart of the gospel.

Randy Wise

19th January 2007, 09:11 AM (09:11)

a gift from my boss: wine
maybe I will cook with it.

And maybe we will talk about it <g>

Interesting thread that went from the above original statement to cooking then to drinking pro's and cons.

I hope thank the boss was "thanked" for his gift.

Randy

Anne and Dwayne Hood

19th January 2007, 11:55 PM (23:55)

I really am not sure how I ended up double posting. So, I wrote this note since I did not know how to delelte one of the post--and removed the post from this form.

Anne and Dwayne Hood

19th January 2007, 11:57 PM (23:57)

Grape juice also does the same as wine--so let's stick to that for our health. We never know if we are one of the people that has a propensity
to become an alcoholic. Also, if one cooks with wine, I think the alcohol would evaporate, but the flavor would remain. RIGHT?

Anne and Dwayne Hood

20th January 2007, 02:09 AM (02:09)

All of us know the destructiveness of alcohol, so it is best to shun every appearance of evil. Also, we have to be very careful what kind of example we are setting for younger or weaker Christians. There may be things that we feel we could do with a clear conscience, but if it offends another Christian, it does not hurt for us to avoid these things. Something as simple as minature golf offended a young Christian friend of ours years ago. Later, when that person felt differently, I felt it was OK to take our children to play minature golf. But, what was a little amusingwaas what she said. "Now, I don't think it is wrong to play minature golf, but he plays REAL golf." But, there are so many more things than trite things like golf that allure our young people these days. We don't want to drive them away from God and the church. We do not need to go too far either way.
God is able to give us wisdom, as He promised to make decicisions concerning His will for our life. But, we may need to be willing to abstain from some things, "if it hurt our brother or sister in Christ." We can tell if they are truly hurt, or just being picky to cause problems and confusion.