God, theology, and murder

[David Gerber]

Forgive me for being amped up.

The shooting in Aurora, Colorado (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/colorado-theater-shooting/index.html)

Maybe there will be a great deal of debate as to how and why this happened. Maybe not.

We have been killing each other on a relatively consistent basis for eons for a variety of reasons with a variety of theological and atheological permissions. We have had adultery, murder, greed, envy, and jealousy for millenniums. Perhaps that has caused us to retreat to a position of trying to minimize and manage the evil that resides in our hearts. Perhaps that is even worked out in our theologies of heaven and hell.

I just know I feel weak and powerless. Not in the good sense like "God's strength is perfected in my weakness" but in the "Lord, Lord did we not do all these things in your name? And Jesus responds with "Depart from me..."

I can cut off my hand and gouge out my eyes and still have lust in my heart. The actions just keep me from committing the offense physically but does nothing for me spiritually.

How do I engage people with the Kingdom of God, its promises and mission, and not devolve into a people that are waiting for a spiritual airlift?

Certain theologies will drive me to distraction and anger me. I pray that my theology will drive me to my knees to seek and know God's will for MY life and how I am to be a minister of reconciliation. To weep with those who weep and carry the burdens of my family members.

I want a theology that will not let me off the hook from loving my enemies. I want a theology that looks, sounds, and acts like Jesus...not a Jesus with whom I am comfortable and lets my darkness masquerade as light. I want to be light and let the Light shine in the darkness.

Anyway....thanks for listening.

[Todd Erickson]

"How do I engage people with the Kingdom of God, its promises and mission, and not devolve into a people that are waiting for a spiritual airlift?"

This speaks to a specific assumption, doesn't it, that the Kingdom of God can only materialize after we die, and only among Christians?

Nothing about the contents of the Sermon on the Mount promise an airlift. It's almost entirely focused on "here and now".

[Billy Cox]

I want a theology that will not let me off the hook from loving my enemies. I want a theology that looks, sounds, and acts like Jesus...not a Jesus with whom I am comfortable and lets my darkness masquerade as light. I want to be light and let the Light shine in the darkness.

Is it possible that even the teachings of Jesus should be interpreted in light of the culture that shaped those who eventually wrote it down?

Love your enemies was/is a 'stay alive' ethic. Against an immovable force like Rome, it made no sense to spread the gospel by way of political conquest.

[David Gerber]

"How do I engage people with the Kingdom of God, its promises and mission, and not devolve into a people that are waiting for a spiritual airlift?"

This speaks to a specific assumption, doesn't it, that the Kingdom of God can only materialize after we die, and only among Christians?

Nothing about the contents of the Sermon on the Mount promise an airlift. It's almost entirely focused on "here and now".

I agree. Maybe it is the overwhelming level of violence to which we have 24hr access to through television and the internet that has me/us singing "I'll Fly Away." The Scriptures don't speak of the Kingdom coming in its fullness out there somewhere, but here on this earth.

[David Gerber]

Is it possible that even the teachings of Jesus should be interpreted in light of the culture that shaped those who eventually wrote it down?

Love your enemies was/is a 'stay alive' ethic. Against an immovable force like Rome, it made no sense to spread the gospel by way of political conquest.

You raise a good question, and it has given me something about which to think. Loving my enemies seems more to me like a 'get yourself killed' ethic. Perhaps to hijack a phrase, "The lover of my enemy is my enemy." I don't know what to do with "even pagans love those who love them." Or, Jesus death on the cross and asking for forgiveness for those that I think were sure they knew what they were doing.

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[Nate Pruitt]

Is it possible that even the teachings of Jesus should be interpreted in light of the culture that shaped those who eventually wrote it down?

Love your enemies was/is a 'stay alive' ethic. Against an immovable force like Rome, it made no sense to spread the gospel by way of political conquest.

Weird- it didn't seem to keep Jesus alive (granted death couldn't hold Him), or many in the early church and even today's persecuted church. Perhaps it's just a bit deeper than a wise "stay alive" philosophy?

[Larry Parsons]

Some people may ask if the Kingdom is here now, why we are having so much ungodliness. First of all the Kingdom will never be perfect before the Second Advent. Even so the kingdom of Christ is growing stronger more powerful as time goes on. The Kingdom was established when Christ came. But it has not reached it full development and this is the reason we see the ungodliness in the world.
thanks
Larry

[Mike Smiley]

So did I commit murder in Vietnam when I killed? I certainly did not go overseas with murder in my heart. It was actually fear in my whole being. But it ended up being kill or be killed. After awhile I adjusted to the reality of it. I have since been told that God was watching over me. Was He really?

[Benjamin Burch]

Is it possible that even the teachings of Jesus should be interpreted in light of the culture that shaped those who eventually wrote it down?

Love your enemies was/is a 'stay alive' ethic. Against an immovable force like Rome, it made no sense to spread the gospel by way of political conquest.

This just simply doesn't even touch the ground of reality in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, where the Church universally interpreted these passages in a way that led to their death.

So, the short answer? No. It is not a "stay alive" tactic, and cannot be interpreted "in context" to mean such. Not at all.

[Benjamin Burch]

So did I commit murder in Vietnam when I killed? I certainly did not go overseas with murder in my heart. It was actually fear in my whole being. But it ended up being kill or be killed. After awhile I adjusted to the reality of it. I have since been told that God was watching over me. Was He really?

I mean no offense, but I really cannot stand personal appeals, as they seem to be an attempt to gain the upper hand. That is, someone won't actually tell me I murdered, will they? That seems to be the only real reason for bringing up such a question.

As a Christian, killing is always wrong, in any context, even when necessary, and is something we should weep and repent of. That applies to anyone and everyone. This is why we serve a God of mercy who loves us and died for us. One who is gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love, eager to relent from punishing.

Lastly, yes, I believe God was watching over you, equally the same as God was watching over those you killed.

[Paul DeBaufer]

So did I commit murder in Vietnam when I killed? I certainly did not go overseas with murder in my heart. It was actually fear in my whole being. But it ended up being kill or be killed. After awhile I adjusted to the reality of it. I have since been told that God was watching over me. Was He really?

I am sorry you had to kill. I can imagine the torment and pain. When we would pray for our young people going off to the various wars around the world, mine were less that they would not get killed, and more that they would not have to kill.

[Ian Gentles]

Seems that having to kill, military, benefits many. American war of independance was about killing, yet American friends rejoice it happened. We kill terrorists, to prevent them killing. Most people who have had to kill didnt like it, for many it was the enemy or their own friends.
The world is a violent place. I wouldent kill to save myself, maybe to protect my family? Seems there is defensive killing. But and killing for killing sake, for greed, etc is wrong.
My enemy is my enemy by his own decision, not mine. To kill him just because he is my enemy is wrong. To kill him to defend others probably isnt?

[Eric Frey]

My enemy is my enemy by his own decision, not mine. To kill him just because he is my enemy is wrong. To kill him to defend others probably isnt?

I think Ben makes an important point
killing is always wrong, in any context, even when necessary, and is something we should weep and repent of. It allows that killing may be necessary is some instances, but is clear that even necessary evils are still evil. I would love to be able to stand up and say I would never kill, and there was I time when I would have, but now I have a family -- a wife and three kids -- and I'm a fairly certain I would kill to protect them. And I think I love them enough that I would kill to protect myself to spare them the pain of growing up without a father. Its just so messy. But I am 100% certain that no matter what the situation, it would be followed by alot of weeping and repentance. I will not condemn those who kill with their back to the wall. I have not been in their shoes. But I think confession would be the only appropriate response to doing so.

[Ian Gentles]

I think Ben makes an important point It allows that killing may be necessary is some instances, but is clear that even necessary evils are still evil. I would love to be able to stand up and say I would never kill, and there was I time when I would have, but now I have a family -- a wife and three kids -- and I'm a fairly certain I would kill to protect them. And I think I love them enough that I would kill to protect myself to spare them the pain of growing up without a father. Its just so messy. But I am 100% certain that no matter what the situation, it would be followed by alot of weeping and repentance. I will not condemn those who kill with their back to the wall. I have not been in their shoes. But I think confession would be the only appropriate response to doing so.

When Bin Laden (sp) was killed i felt no joy. It was probably a neccesity, but not a matter to bring joy. I wouldent rejoice in killing any who attacked my family, but would rejoice is protecting them. Killing is always the last resort. A soldier kills to survive mostly. Without killing in ww2 the Nazies would have gone on killing Jews. But I agree, killing is always wrong, the last resort. Killing shows the sinfull failure of humane society.

[Mike Smiley]

I attend a PTSD group 2 times a month. Everyone in that group struggles with the same question I asked. I am sorry you cannot stand personal appeals. Don't know what you really mean by that. But that being said we all can only ask questions about things we have personally experienced. I am 69 years old and still have these experiences in my mind as though they just happened. Kinda like the same experience you never let go of when you are first saved. But that does not mean you never have any follow up questions.

[Billy Cox]

This just simply doesn't even touch the ground of reality in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, where the Church universally interpreted these passages in a way that led to their death.

So, the short answer? No. It is not a "stay alive" tactic, and cannot be interpreted "in context" to mean such. Not at all.

Well, let's say that love your enemies was first century code for not trying to do the Kingdom by means of armed insurgency. But it turns out that Rome didn't need the pretext of an insurgency to declare war on the Christians. The 'Jesus is Lord' mantra was more than enough reason.

Fortunately, Jesus also said some really cryptic things about not fearing those who can destroy the body and losing one's life to gain it. This was an ethic beyond stay alive, and when the Christians were being roasted alive, it came in handy.

I suspect that many of Jesus' more difficult sayings made far more sense as the Pax Romana was beginning to unravel.

[Randy Wise]

Is it possible that even the teachings of Jesus should be interpreted in light of the culture that shaped those who eventually wrote it down?

Love your enemies was/is a 'stay alive' ethic. Against an immovable force like Rome, it made no sense to spread the gospel by way of political conquest.

Well to obey the governmental authorities as Paul wrote in Romans is wise both to bring glory to God when people note your behavior and also as you wrote to keep safe. But what Jesus gave as commands in regard to Love was in the law long before Rome entered Israel and also applies as a way of life in dealing with people not just governments. Jesus taught us to be like our Heavenly Father in words and deed. So since we are all still working towards the mark Jesus set in behavior towards others I uphold Him as the example for He alone other then the Father is worthy of that praise and honor. Now if someone takes issue with the Jesus in the NT then I perceive the fault lies within that individual not God.

I noted in the NT the one who sows weeds and leads the whole world astray (a liar and murderer from the beginning) but even that enemy will not prevail for the Lord has built His church. (body of Christ)

Randy

[Mike Smiley]

What about the Christians that joined the Roman army? Even though an entire Christian legion was put to death for refusing to worship the emperor, they did carry out the orders of the Romans. Slay every man, woman, child when they entered into battle. That was a common Roman tactic to pacify areas they subjugated. Kinda like what happened in Jericho and Ai.

[Paul DeBaufer]

What about the Christians that joined the Roman army? Even though an entire Christian legion was put to death for refusing to worship the emperor, they did carry out the orders of the Romans. Slay every man, woman, child when they entered into battle. That was a common Roman tactic to pacify areas they subjugated. Kinda like what happened in Jericho and Ai.

What about them? They aren't excused, forgiven, not excused.

[Mike Smiley]

Really? So the Nazi death camp administrators are not excused, they are forgiven? After all they did what was necessary to survive in serving that government. Which by the way was democratically elected by the German people.

[Benjamin Burch]

Really? So the Nazi death camp administrators are not excused, they are forgiven? After all they did what was necessary to survive in serving that government.

(1) We don't know whether they're forgiven or not. Only Christ does.

(2) What do Nazi's have to do with what Paul said about Romans in the question you asked?


Which by the way was democratically elected by the German people.

What does that have to do with God or forgiveness?

[Steven Martinez]

Host Post

I am closing this thread. No one really to blame. I think David was expressing his thoughts and received so dialogue. There is no need to keep going for there is no desire to have the violence versus non-violence debate yet again. Lets try to remember the purpose of this forum. If you forgot please read the sticky thread.

The Host with the Most
Steve Martinez