The moving of God's Spirit within us...divine or humane motivated?

[Ian Gentles]

I know lots of christians that wish for God's spirit to move within their lives.....folks who going through dry periods cry to God for His Spirit to move upon them. But does God move on us, according to our pleas, or according to His divine will?
I over many years have read many books on this subject, many of them saying, "Oh its God's will but you may be hindering God". Now I havent met a person who is perfect, and of whome it couldent be said, in some area, they are hindering. My own view is, "Isnt that why we call upon the Lord?". Hey, wish I could give an easy answer! Some folks beleive if they are in a location where God's Spirit is moving we are more likely to come under greater influence of His Spirit. Now that my friends dosent really help if you live in the UK! :(
OK subject is open for discussion. :fav18

[Hans Deventer]

Ian, I had to think of John Wesley's sermon on the Means Of Grace http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/016.htm, because it specifically deals with the question what God does in us and what we should do to receive it.

[Ian Gentles]

Oups, connection wont open for me, will find it elswhere, thanks Hans!

[Hans Deventer]

My mistake! The ")" at the end caused it. Now it should work.

[Ian Gentles]

Thank you so much Hans, your a gem off a man...have bookmarked it to read later...again many thanks!




Us Europeans got to stick together!

[Stephen Kerr]

I think it is interesting that Jesus believed that through perseverance we could receive the Holy Spirit-- but that it was through perseverance in our prayers-- a pleading. Of course, Scripture is clear we can grieve the Spirit a way-- and even the image of the dove seems to indicate that. At the same time, the dry periods may be for our benefit. Numerous Christians throughout time have experienced these dry spells-- John Cassian calls it the Dark Night of the Soul whereas others have called it the Desert Experience. God is faithful to complete the work He has started-- but it is a relationship. He isn't always at my beck and call just like I don't expect that to be the case with my other relationships. Their is giving and taking-- no magic formula here-- just a journey, a progression from "grace to grace" and "glory to glory." I think it is interesting, however, that in Scripture, the Spirit of God is specifically linked to regeneration at baptism. That, I find, may be something that needs more reflection.

[Barbara Moulton]

I know lots of christians that wish for God's spirit to move within their lives.....folks who going through dry periods cry to God for His Spirit to move upon them. But does God move on us, according to our pleas, or according to His divine will?
I over many years have read many books on this subject, many of them saying, "Oh its God's will but you may be hindering God". Now I havent met a person who is perfect, and of whome it couldent be said, in some area, they are hindering. My own view is, "Isnt that why we call upon the Lord?". Hey, wish I could give an easy answer! Some folks beleive if they are in a location where God's Spirit is moving we are more likely to come under greater influence of His Spirit. Now that my friends dosent really help if you live in the UK! :(
OK subject is open for discussion. :fav18

I have some personal feelings on this subject, that I know others might not share. But here it goes...

It is true, many Christians "wish" for God's spirit to move upon them. And they feel that it doesn't happen for them. But are they truly wishing for God's spirit to move or are they wishing for God's spirit to move in a certain way? My ministry has brought me into contact with many people who have decided that a true spiritual movement of God in their lives must look a certain way. They look for that to happen in their life. That expectation keeps them from realizing the truth that God never stopped working.

Six years ago, I went through a period of time that taught me something about everday faith. The faith to believe that God was there and God was working whether I felt it or not. The faith to believe that God was working, even if that working didn't look like what I was expecting.

Some might recall the crisis my family went through at that time. From my standpoint, things were dry and desperate. And I wanted God to move. It was then that I began to wonder if faith simply meant accepting that God was moving, whether I felt it or not. I decided to put this idea to the test. I decided to simply start acknowledging that God was already doing what I used to keep pleading for him to do. And it was incredible the peace I began to experience.

You asked if God moves according to our pleas or according to His divine will.

I believe that God is moving in the lives of all Christians, all the time. The variable that changes the result of that divine movement, is not whether we have pled enough or are in the right location or have examined the minutae of our life to determine if there is something we are doing that is hindering His movement.

The variable (for me) is whether or not I affirm by faith that God is moving and simply surrender.

To be honest, the past six years have required a spiritual reprogramming of my thought patterns. My former reaction when I felt a dry spell was to think that something was wrong in my life that was hindering the movement of God. Now, when I feel dryness or separation of God, and I start to feel that there must be something wrong in my life, I choose to think otherwise. That God is still there, God is still moving. I will affirm to God, "I believe you are there God and I surrender to your willl."

Sometimes, during difficult periods, I have to make this statement of faith several times a day.

And as I do, I do become aware of God's presence, God's peace and God's movement.

When I was younger, I used to love to go to revival type meetings, retreats and special services to feel the outpouring of God's spirit on my life. And I would have some wonderful experiences.

The reality is, I don't feel the need for this anymore. I might not have those wonderfully uplifting experiences anymore but I also don't have the incredible low valleys anymore. There is a spiritual eveness that has come into my life and it is largely a result of consistent affirmation and surrender.

Much of Scripture seems to affirm this. Paul speaks often of praying that the hearts and minds of his readers might be opened up to understand the glorious riches in Christ.

There are words in Scripture about being still before God but we often fill our prayers with so many pleas that I wonder if it is those very pleas the deafen us to the voice of God?

As C.S. Lewis implies in "A Grief Observed", we can't hear when we ask, seek and knock because we are kicking and screaming at the door instead of quietly seeking and knocking.

Has the evangelical Church made it too hard? Have the created this expectation of Christian living which causes us to blame ourselves when we don't experience it?

I can only say that right now...God is more real to me and I am more conscious of His divine presence than I was when I was constantly pleading for more of his divine presence.

[Ian Gentles]

I agree that most want a certain thing, experiance, when they seek the Holy Spirit.

[Barbara Moulton]

I agree that most want a certain thing, experiance, when they seek the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. Have you ever watched two and three year olds open their presents on Christmas morning? Last night, we watched a video of such an event in our home, Christmas 1988.

Lindsay and Leisha were so happy with every gift that they opened. They were excited about the new clothes. They were thrilled with cheap dollar store items in their stockings. They were delighted and surprised with the larger gifts.

Christmas is wonderful with little ones. But something happens as kids get older. It's the big "E" word.

Expectations. Commercials and peer pressure suddenly mean that they have a list of "must have" gifts. And Christmas morning, that's the gift they are looking for. Their joy in all the other gifts is not quite as intense, because each one they open, they are hoping that THIS will be that one particular gift they really wanted.

I sometimes wonder if we do the same with God. We build up expectations of how God should move in our lives and we are so intent on looking for that, we forget to immerse ourselves in the joy of all the other ways He is moving in our lives.

Commercials and peer pressure shape our children's Christmas expectations. Sometimes its "Christian commercials" that shape our expectations of how God should move in our lives. That's one reason I stopped going to Christian "events" that promised the moving of the spirit. I intentionally chose to live my life one day at a time...celebrating all the things, big and small, that God was doing.

I try to concentrate on the many blessings of the moment, rather than the expectation of something else.

[Grandma Carolyn]

Barbara I just voted and rated this thread as excellent. Thanks for your contributions to it and to NazNet. You often shed light and express things in your spiritual life that I have, also, come to discover in mine. So, it is good to read your contributions. It is like it is an affirmation of my own journey.

**GC**

Exactly. Have you ever watched two and three year olds open their presents on Christmas morning? Last night, we watched a video of such an event in our home, Christmas 1988.

Lindsay and Leisha were so happy with every gift that they opened. They were excited about the new clothes. They were thrilled with cheap dollar store items in their stockings. They were delighted and surprised with the larger gifts.

Christmas is wonderful with little ones. But something happens as kids get older. It's the big "E" word.

Expectations. Commercials and peer pressure suddenly mean that they have a list of "must have" gifts. And Christmas morning, that's the gift they are looking for. Their joy in all the other gifts is not quite as intense, because each one they open, they are hoping that THIS will be that one particular gift they really wanted.

I sometimes wonder if we do the same with God. We build up expectations of how God should move in our lives and we are so intent on looking for that, we forget to immerse ourselves in the joy of all the other ways He is moving in our lives.

Commercials and peer pressure shape our children's Christmas expectations. Sometimes its "Christian commercials" that shape our expectations of how God should move in our lives. That's one reason I stopped going to Christian "events" that promised the moving of the spirit. I intentionally chose to live my life one day at a time...celebrating all the things, big and small, that God was doing.

I try to concentrate on the many blessings of the moment, rather than the expectation of something else.

[Joel Merrill]

In the thread, "Our Distinctive Doctrine," http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=338 I gave some of my testimony of how it took me 22 years before I became sanctified. I could see that it was scriptural and that it was the Lord's will but I just couldn't get a handle on it myself. I had a confused idea of what sanctification was. I had mistaken expectations because of that. Many people would have fallen away in that much time. Others would go on out of habit but not have the joy or power that the Lord intended for us to have. That was me.

The time that I became a Christian was a very real and life changing moment for me. I wasn't about to go back. I had been to the alter many times seeking sanctification. I don't know why I didn't receive it. I could be wrong here but here is what I think. I had areas in my life that I knew were not pleasing to the Lord but I didn't have the power to give them up. I wanted the Lord to take them from me. Like I said, I could be way off here but now my thinking is that God doesn't take things away from us. We have to give them up first. This can be VERY hard to do. That is why the old timers called it "dying out" or "praying through". There is still a lot I don't understand. Could it be that we have to be ready or at a certain point before we can be sanctified? I don't know.

Anyhow, I told the Lord, several times, that I was going to serve him whether he sanctified me or not. And even if I went to Hell over the things I couldn't give up, I would still do the best I could to live a Christian life because it was a better life. During that 22 years God did answer many prayer and I felt his presence many times but I just couldn't get complete victory. I finally gave up trying to become sanctified.

I went into a long dry spell. I went to church because I was supposed to and did my best to be a Christian but I was not happy. In the fall of 1994 chemicals started getting off balance in my brain and I started acting strange and to make a long story short, I went into a severe depression. This went on for 2 months before I found out what I had. It was the most awful time of my life. It is hard to even tell you about it. I would start crying for no reason. Good things were happening in my life. There was no reason to be that sad. I would break down crying at work and have to go home. That was very embarrassing! I would lay across my bed and cry as hard as I could for hours and I couldn't stop. My wife and kids didn't know what to think. All I could do was pray. I begged God to help me. I couldn't feel him at all. I just knew that he was out there so I kept trying. I was in so much emotional pain that I just started giving God everything. I even had a fire out in the garden of things that I thought displeased him. I gave him everything. There was nothing left to give.

It didn't happen right away or quickly but I finally got help and started my slow recovery. It was by far the most painful awful time of my life. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Looking back though, I can see that that was when the Lord sanctified me. I am a completely different person now and I have freedom from those things I couldn't give up before. I could still go back to them and they still tempt me but now I can just say no. I am also a more loving and compassionate person now I have have been changed in many other ways. At the time it was horrible but now I can see that it was of the Lord.

I think both the Lord moves and we move. Since we are all different we are all going to have a different experience. Of course a dry spell doesn't always mean that we are not sanctified or not pleasing the Lord. Think of Job. He did nothing to bring those troubles onto himself and he knew nothing of the conversation between God and Satan. God uses trials to make us strong and he often times uses dry spells. On the surface it seems mean but he is watching us closely even if we can't feel him and he knows how much we can take. Our trials are for our good. Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the matter.

Joel

[Ian Gentles]

I think expectations regards the Holy Spirit are ok, as long as we hold to reality as well.

[Barbara Moulton]

How do you all define a "dry spell"? (I have a reason for asking but I would like to read some answers first.)

[Jill Mickelson]

MOST often, when the Holy Spirit has moved in my life I have been very SURPRISED! Just the journey of being born again. I was very annoyed by two women who were helping me teach Childbirth Classes. All they talked about was Jesus! Long story short, I was walking down our steps and thinking that "I am good, so I don't have anything to worry about. I'll go to Heaven." A thought popped into my head/mind and it was "If you love Me, you will obey Me." Wow! I wasn't reading the Bible but I knew that I was in trouble. Lots more to that story and I did get Born Again.

Another time, I was worrying about my brother. Drugs and he had a terrible life growing up. I was riding our Lawn Mower and I told the Lord that I couldn't stand it worrying about my brother anymore. I surrendered him to the Lord. He died some months later. And the LORD reminded me that I had surrendered my brother to Him!

Another time, I was at an Evangelism Conference. The LORD moved mightily in my heart. I was being so blessed. Something was happening there and I didn't know what. When it was time to leave, most of the people left. I couldn't leave. A handful of people, like me, were crying and praying. I KNEW that they had been touched by the Lord. His Glory came down and only a few knew it.

This is only a little bit of how the Holy Spirit has moved in my life. But each time I have been surprised by what He was doing! Divine or humanly motivated? I'd like to think Divine....