Is Racism still in the church?

[Ian Gentles]

No, I honestly beleive it isnt in the Nazarene church, it would go wholly agains out vision. But i wonder, thinking of UK, you can talk for your country, region, is it still lingering in the evangelical church? It certainly dosent in my mission I'm glad to report! But do wonder, in nice middle class, white areas, all over, are folks of none white colours as important, welcomed, in as many prominent positions, as they should be?
Noooooo, I'm not seeking to raise the subject of racism, more the subject of intigration. Would welcome your feed back.

[Bruce Carriker]

Oh, Ian...perhaps not in the UK.

The CofN in the US is pretty much a white, middle- to upper middle-class church. In some of our major metropolitan areas, the Church of the Nazarene designated "First Church" is no longer located in the city whose name the church bears. In Kansas City, First Church is located as far west and nearly as far south as it can be, and still be within the city limits. It is located across the street from one of the very wealthiest housing developments in the KC metro area.

"White-flight" is alive and well in the Church of the Nazarene and in the church in general in the United States. HOWEVER, there is also reverse racism, as well. A number of African-American Nazarenes drive past one or more "white" Churches of the Nazarene in the KC metro area to worship at Dr. Larry Lott's church.


There is an excellent book (now I forget the authors) called "Divided by Faith". It is all about racism in the church in the United States, and is very fair and balanced in its treatment of the issue. There is also an outstanding book by John Perkins called, "Beyond Charity", in which he challenges the church growth movement and its "principle of homogeneity" (which basically excuses racism) as an affront to God.

I wish it were not so. I agree with you that it should not be so in a Christian church.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Unfortunately, there is prejudice in our church. I am not sure if racism and prejudice are the same thing. But we live on the old imaginary Mason-Dixon Line of the Civil War era. We have a large black population.

If you sit around our congregation very long you will know which people are prejudiced against the black community.

I would love to have some black families begin attending our church. I would love to see God teach some of our people to love in spite of color.

Barb

[Bruce Carriker]

Here is the bibliographic info on the two books I mentioned earlier. They are both really outstanding.

Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America (Paperback) by Michael O. Emerson, Christian Smith, 2000, Oxford University Press

also,

Beyond Charity: The Call to Christian Community Development (Paperback) by John Perkins, John M. Perkins, 1993, Baker Book House

[Ron Davis]

I recently attended a seminar at MNU where Brian McClaren was speaking. He made the point that integration usually helped white churches more than black churches. I had never thought of it that way before.

Aside from that how do we confront racism, especially in the church? What do we do when a someone in leadership of a local church begins showing signs of racism?

Beyond that what is the church's responsibility to work for racial justice in this world?

[Billy Cox]

Oh, Ian...perhaps not in the UK.

In Kansas City, First Church is located as far west and nearly as far south as it can be, and still be within the city limits. It is located across the street from one of the very wealthiest housing developments in the KC metro area.



Interesting that you would mention KC First... They are on the Kansas/Missouri state line which is a stark dividing line by class. While some of the wealthiest Kansans live across the street from the church, 'suburban decline' is quickly creeping into KC First's backyard on the Missouri side. The area on the Missouri side is still affluent but is slipping for the same reasons that anything within the Kansas City school district boundaries is slipping.

[Billy Cox]

Here's the definition I operate by:

Racism is the tendency to form opinions about a person based primarily on a person's ethnicity or culture.

Racism has a foothold in the heart of every person. The question is whether we will allow it to morph into feelings of superiority, suspicion, fear, or hatred.

[Ian Gentles]

Agreed, it is there, so we affectivly deal with it as christians.

[Bruce Carriker]

Interesting that you would mention KC First... They are on the Kansas/Missouri state line which is a stark dividing line by class. While some of the wealthiest Kansans live across the street from the church, 'suburban decline' is quickly creeping into KC First's backyard on the Missouri side. The area on the Missouri side is still affluent but is slipping for the same reasons that anything within the Kansas City school district boundaries is slipping.

You know, of course, that the area around KC 1st Church is not in the Kansas City school district, and that a good many of the kids who live in that area attend the private and expensive Barstow School, which is pretty much next door the church. From Wornall Road west is still a pretty good part of town, as KCMO goes, but a far cry from what's directly across the street from the church in Hallbrook.

[Mark Metcalfe]

Well, I admit to having a problem with the French, but the Lord is working on me.

[Hans Deventer]

That's great, Mark! The French have enough problems of their own right now, I'd say :basic03

[Ian Gentles]

Poor old French, they have suffered enough!

[Jeff Scott]

I've got a lot of thoughts on this topic- most of which I will keep to myself. However, I would contend that there is quite a lot of racism in the church today.

I also think that for the most part, even if our church was void of all racism, we would still have white churches and black churches. This is a result of cultural differences and traditional preferences. People go to places where they feel comfortable- where they fit in. I think it is possible to feel loved yet different and uncomfortable. I have attended church at a "black" church and felt loved, but not comfortable because the culture was different than mine. I enjoyed my visit and truly love the experience, but I prefer to worship differently. I might compare this to the music style (hymns vs. contemporary choruses) debate. Some churches have separate services just for this reason. It is a cultural concern not a racial concern. People just prefer to worship in different styles. Fortunately, God likes all styles of heartfelt worship.

I can't tell if any people of color (other than white) have read this thread. I doubt it. I also think they would probably skip participating in the thread rather than being the single voice for another group of people. There is a significant shortage of white people that can speak with any amount of authority as to whether racism exists in the church. We have not experienced it like as minority groups have.

We also need to define two different types of racism. Typically, when white people discuss racism, it is largely in terms of overt racism. However, I believe members of minority groups are much more frustrated by covert racism that goes largely unnoticed and that is very difficult to eradicate. We can love a group of people and still hurt them by unintentionally committing racist acts.

[Ian Gentles]

Good post, especialy part about "Covert racism". Yes, we look foreward to folks from many different races and cultures one day joining us on NazNet, would be great to hear their views. My feeling is, only when we all, races, cultures, discuss these matters openly will we come to a better understanding. Bye the way, there is a cultural divide in NazNet that most folks would deny, between Europeans and North Americans. ;)

[Barbara Moulton]

Good post, especialy part about "Covert racism". Yes, we look foreward to folks from many different races and cultures one day joining us on NazNet, would be great to hear their views. My feeling is, only when we all, races, cultures, discuss these matters openly will we come to a better understanding. Bye the way, there is a cultural divide in NazNet that most folks would deny, between Europeans and North Americans. ;)

There is a cultural divide in North America as well.

Or hadn't you noticed that I am a wee bit different then my friends to the south :)

[William Hunter]

No, I honestly beleive it isnt in the Nazarene church, it would go wholly agains out vision. But i wonder, thinking of UK, you can talk for your country, region, is it still lingering in the evangelical church? It certainly dosent in my mission I'm glad to report! But do wonder, in nice middle class, white areas, all over, are folks of none white colours as important, welcomed, in as many prominent positions, as they should be?
Noooooo, I'm not seeking to raise the subject of racism, more the subject of intigration. Would welcome your feed back.

Yes, we have people in local churches who are racist, racist whites and racist blacks. But one thing that is not mentioned in this thread is the fact of personal culture preference in the style of worship. I have a blakc Nazarene pastor friend in Detroit. I took my family to his Sunday morning service one time and we were they only whites there. They did not use the hymnal but sang black spirituals, none of which we knew, but we enjoyed the atmosphere and watching people dancing in the aisle as they sang, etc.

After the service we went to luch at Po Folks and had southern fried chicken for lunch. During the lunch Bob asked me what I thought of his service. I told him that he convinced me to beleive in reincarnation. He nearly chocked on the piece of chicken he tried to swollow. He asked in the world I got that out of his service (where he preached a sound holiness message)? I said: "Have you ever preached to white folks? They just sit there. You convinced me that I want to come back as a black preacher." Sometimes what we call racism is nothing more than cultural preference, when in fact, we enjoy those times we get together in larger settings in racial mix.

[Barbara Moulton]

Yes, we have people in local churches who are racist, racist whites and racist blacks. But one thing that is not mentioned in this thread is the fact of personal culture preference in the style of worship. I have a blakc Nazarene pastor friend in Detroit. I took my family to his Sunday morning service one time and we were they only whites there. They did not use the hymnal but sang black spirituals, none of which we knew, but we enjoyed the atmosphere and watching people dancing in the aisle as they sang, etc.

After the service we went to luch at Po Folks and had southern fried chicken for lunch. During the lunch Bob asked me what I thought of his service. I told him that he convinced me to beleive in reincarnation. He nearly chocked on the piece of chicken he tried to swollow. He asked in the world I got that out of his service (where he preached a sound holiness message)? I said: "Have you ever preached to white folks? They just sit there. You convinced me that I want to come back as a black preacher." Sometimes what we call racism is nothing more than cultural preference, when in fact, we enjoy those times we get together in larger settings in racial mix.

We have had two multicultural congregations. Orangeville is not very multicultural (only an hour nort of Toronto and very different).

We do miss the affirmation during the messages that you would get. We found primarily that the folks from Jamaica were the most vocal, in a wonderful soul inspiring way.

Amen...preach it.

[Audrey Hanson]

Is there racism in the church? Probably. It bothers me most at the higher levels. I think the Nazarene church has a terrible time deciding what to do with its black seminary grads. There aren't enough successful minority churches in which to place them. They often do not want to return home, for a variety of reasons. I've seen very few successful cross-cultural placements. Typically, the new black pastor goes out to take over a failing white church in an area of white flight. The CoN is traditionally "white" and not exactly known among black Americans. Often the pastor is West Indian or African, another cultural, though not racial, issue. So, the pastor faces almost insurmountable struggles and, too often, fails.

A good friend of mine is going through this right now. My advice--switch over to the Methodists and get an associate pastor job in a fairly successful church and go from there. But, his heart is Nazarene and he won't do it. I think his experience is tragic, for him at least. My heart breaks--but his story is too typical. I have other friends who have left the CoN for Brethren or non-denom churches and have been very successful. Those who have stayed continue to struggle.

I agree that cultural, not racial, issues are paramount. Kids today are not growing up with segregation typical of previous generations. But, cultural issues are valid, and all races/ethnic groups have them. Just quick thoughts.

[Bruce Carriker]

Is there racism in the church? Probably. It bothers me most at the higher levels. I think the Nazarene church has a terrible time deciding what to do with its black seminary grads.

I just graduated from the seminary, and I don't know that this is a pressing problem. We had exactly ONE African-American graduate last year. Even counting Africans and those from the Caribbean, I'm pretty sure I can count the number of seminary graduates of color on the fingers of both hands.

Our "white, upper middle-classness" is nowhere more evident than at the seminary.

[Larry Osweiler]

I think we overlook the fact that most whites, african-american's, and hispanics prefer to worship in their own environment with their own music and preaching tailored to their own cultural preferences. I don't see anything wrong with that at all. And I certainly don't call it racist. Just because I am a white, middle class minister who would not prefer to worship at a black or hispanic church doesn't mean I'm a racist. If you asked most black people, they prefer to worship in black churches.
But I also laugh when our denominational leaders who make a big splash about how multicultural our churches are and how we "welcome" diversity. If we took a secret poll, most whites like to worship with whites, most blacks prefer to worship with blacks, and most hispanics like to worship with hispanics. There are racist whites, blacks, and hispanics. Every church has some form of racism, but there needs to be a distintction between racism and a preference to worship within the boundaries of your own cultural preferences.
I pastor a white flight church now. We moved out of the "city" in 1969. And I'm sure there are those in my church who you could label as racist. But the vast majority are not.
I am trying to deterimine the definition of racist.

[Hans Deventer]

Larry,

www.dictionary.com says:

racist, n: a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others

Does that work for you?

[Bruce Carriker]

I think we overlook the fact that most whites, african-american's, and hispanics prefer to worship in their own environment with their own music and preaching tailored to their own cultural preferences.

Ah, the Homogeneity Principle. Some folks would see nothing wrong with this. The Church Growth Movement embraces it as the 11th Commandment.

Others call it racism. John Perkins says that it "mocks God." And it isn't just a white problem.

[Ian Gentles]

I actualy beleive races should be intigrated in worship, and this is goal we all should be heading towards.