What Priorities Should Be Placed Above Church?

[Pete Vecchi]

What priorities should be placed above church? I'm not saying above christianity, but above church (i.e., regular attendance at Sunday school worship services, Bible studies, church outreach ministries, church fellowships, etc).

I have some ideas, but I'm curious what some other people think, so I'm not going to put mine in here right now.

What do you think?

[Ian Gentles]

1.Family.
2.Needs of others.
3.Nations needs.
4.Personal need of physical rest.
5.Duty to employer.

[Pete Vecchi]

1.Family.
2.Needs of others.
3.Nations needs.
4.Personal need of physical rest.
5.Duty to employer.

Interesting list, Ian. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I appreciate the response.

Just to clarify, are you saying that if a person has a need in his/her family that conflicts with church attendance, if a person knows of a need that someone else has that helping to meet would conflict with church attendance, if a person has is scheduled to work by an employer and it is in conflict with church attendance, or if a person is simply tired, that those are all legitimate things that should take priority of church attendance?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

What priorities should be placed above church? I'm not saying above christianity, but above church (i.e., regular attendance at Sunday school worship services, Bible studies, church outreach ministries, church fellowships, etc).

Priority lists are highly over rated because life is fluid, not static. Christians have only one priority, and that is to live an a constant relationship with God. Everything else is constantly shuffling based on a thousand and one circumstances in life.

Church is one of the concerns of life that sometimes moves temporarily to the second slot, but before long it is replaced by another pressing concern.

In fact, most of the time church isn't even on the radar because there is nothing happening at the church to give priority to.

Again, life is in a constant state of flux.

For instance, it is Sunday morning at 10:00. Normally, you would place a priority on being in church. However, your child has the flu. On this particular Sunday morning, your child has priority.

The next Sunday morning comes, and today, your child is healthy and wants you to take her to the park to play. You say no because church has priority in your life on a typical Sunday morning.

A few hours later on that same Sunday, you will have to make another priority decision -- watching the football game our taking your child to the park.

Again, there are no set priorities aside from the Main One. That is why we have to live in constant touch with God, making our decisions in ways that are consistent with his purposes on our lives.

[Dana Grant]

Interesting question, Pete.

Well, if you had asked this question a year ago, I would have answered NOTHING. I would have said that church would be the most important thing.

However, having gone through an interesting year -- we left the Nazarene church in January 2005 to attend a Wesleyan church, and we have since gone back to the Nazarene church as of about a month ago -- very long story there -- but we have learned a lot over the past year. First of all, the Wesleyan church did not have Sunday night services. The first few weeks of that made me wonder if the Lord approved of that!! Since we've gone back to the Naz church, though, we haven't really started going back on Sunday nights yet -- we rather grew to enjoy having that family time on Sunday evenings. Believe me, this is a HUGE change for a family who was so overly involved in the church and never missed a service without being SICK or something -- for 28 years! I never dreamed that I would be responding to a question like this!

However, now that we've been through the fire, so to speak, it has changed our attitudes somewhat. Will we stay this way? Who knows; but for now, our priority is our family. If we decide that we need to take a weekend away from church, we do it. We can do that right now because we have no other obligations, such as Sunday school teacher, etc., and of course, if we committed to that, we wouldn't just stay home from church. But for now, the first time in 28 years, we have no "jobs" at church, and we are actually feeling a sense of freedom for the first time. And when the time comes, and I'm sure that it will, when we have jobs again at the church, I can tell you that my family will still come first. Putting God first does not mean putting CHURCH above your family, in my new opinion. Somehow, we feel that the Lord has directed us in more ways than just changing churches this year. We've made some radical changes in our lives. For the better, I would say.

Now, let me just say that church is STILL on the top of our list of priorities as a family, and we don't just hang out at home when we feel like it every Sunday, believe me, that would never happen. But if we have been under some pretty heavy stress during the week, or if we want to go out of town for some relaxation, we DO take a Sunday off here and there, whereas before we pretty much never did that because I was in charge of this or Bert was in charge of that. Things are different right now; how long that remains so is yet to be seen.

[Dana Grant]

Every once in a while, as much as I avoid it whenever possible, I do have to work on a Sunday. Rarely, but as Scott said, priorities do shift for one reason or another. I did like his response to your question.

Interesting!:fav18

[Larry Osweiler]

As a pastor who was used to Sunday night services, it was hard for me to come to a church where there was nothing going on on Sunday nights. I am now in my fourth year and to be honest, I would not go back to having church on Sunday nights. At least in a small church. Our people enjoy the time with their families.
I think the most tragic thing I've seen in all my years of ministry is burnout. I'm talking burnout of the saints. I don't know about your church, but ours is basically a 90/10 church. And my wife has taught Sunday School every month for 12 years. She loves not having to go back to church on Sunday nights. In all my churches I've pastored, it's usually the same bunch doing the same work because no one else will do it. And after a while you do get burned out. And when burnout occurs, the entire Lord's work suffers.
We seem to have this notion that Sunday Night services is somehow ordained of God. In some churches it may be, but for the vast majority of them they do it because "we've always had Sunday night services." And many times the ones who fight against doing away with Sunday nights are the one's who don't attend. We do alot of "things" in the church because of tradition. And many of those "traditions" are simply the church spinning it's wheels in useless or non-effictive endeavors.
I agree with one of our Conference Supt's who said that it's high time we "shoot some of our sacred cows in the church." I know more Sunday School teachers, board members, church cleaners, etc. who are just plain tired because of the demands the church places on them.
How can we ask people who work 50+ hours a week in a secular job to come and basically spend all day
Sunday at the church? And many times we get the third degree if we decide to be gone for a weekend. It does happen in the church.
My advice, don't beat yourself up over the fact that you don't go to Sunday PM services. Enjoy that time with your family. And if you are not active in the church, consider that a God-given sabbatical where you can get your spiritual energy renewed. And if you don't get involved for another ten years, if the Lord is directing you that way, then so be it. :basic07

[Dana Grant]

As a pastor who was used to Sunday night services, it was hard for me to come to a church where there was nothing going on on Sunday nights. I am now in my fourth year and to be honest, I would not go back to having church on Sunday nights. At least in a small church. Our people enjoy the time with their families.
I think the most tragic thing I've seen in all my years of ministry is burnout. I'm talking burnout of the saints. I don't know about your church, but ours is basically a 90/10 church. And my wife has taught Sunday School every month for 12 years. She loves not having to go back to church on Sunday nights. In all my churches I've pastored, it's usually the same bunch doing the same work because no one else will do it. And after a while you do get burned out. And when burnout occurs, the entire Lord's work suffers.
We seem to have this notion that Sunday Night services is somehow ordained of God. In some churches it may be, but for the vast majority of them they do it because "we've always had Sunday night services." And many times the ones who fight against doing away with Sunday nights are the one's who don't attend. We do alot of "things" in the church because of tradition. And many of those "traditions" are simply the church spinning it's wheels in useless or non-effictive endeavors.
I agree with one of our Conference Supt's who said that it's high time we "shoot some of our sacred cows in the church." I know more Sunday School teachers, board members, church cleaners, etc. who are just plain tired because of the demands the church places on them.
How can we ask people who work 50+ hours a week in a secular job to come and basically spend all day
Sunday at the church? And many times we get the third degree if we decide to be gone for a weekend. It does happen in the church.
My advice, don't beat yourself up over the fact that you don't go to Sunday PM services. Enjoy that time with your family. And if you are not active in the church, consider that a God-given sabbatical where you can get your spiritual energy renewed. And if you don't get involved for another ten years, if the Lord is directing you that way, then so be it. :basic07

Preach it, brother!!! (oops, who said that?)

My parents were just horrified that our Wesleyan church did not have Sunday night services. My father said that he would not attend a church that didn't have a Sunday night service. Why? What goes on in the Sunday night service that is so sacred? Is it because we've always done it, and we should never change anything? What about family? Isn't family important? Whose idea was it to have church on Sunday night, anyway?

My parents seem to think that Nazarene churches ALL have Sunday night services -- haven't many Nazarene churches done away with the Sunday night service? Can we take a poll on that?

It would be interesting.

[Hans Deventer]

At your service, mylady. See http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=957

[Ian Gentles]

Yes exactly what I'm saying.

[Ed Phillips]

The only things I can think are something of an emergecy Type. Not just say I don't feel like going or I am to Tired. Church Board members should set the example of Faithfull Attendnce.

Ed Phillips
Mid-Atlantic District
Baltimore MD

[William Hunter]

Interesting question, Pete.

Well, if you had asked this question a year ago, I would have answered NOTHING. I would have said that church would be the most important thing.

However, having gone through an interesting year -- we left the Nazarene church in January 2005 to attend a Wesleyan church, and we have since gone back to the Nazarene church as of about a month ago -- very long story there -- but we have learned a lot over the past year. First of all, the Wesleyan church did not have Sunday night services. The first few weeks of that made me wonder if the Lord approved of that!! Since we've gone back to the Naz church, though, we haven't really started going back on Sunday nights yet -- we rather grew to enjoy having that family time on Sunday evenings. Believe me, this is a HUGE change for a family who was so overly involved in the church and never missed a service without being SICK or something -- for 28 years! I never dreamed that I would be responding to a question like this!

However, now that we've been through the fire, so to speak, it has changed our attitudes somewhat. Will we stay this way? Who knows; but for now, our priority is our family. If we decide that we need to take a weekend away from church, we do it. We can do that right now because we have no other obligations, such as Sunday school teacher, etc., and of course, if we committed to that, we wouldn't just stay home from church. But for now, the first time in 28 years, we have no "jobs" at church, and we are actually feeling a sense of freedom for the first time. And when the time comes, and I'm sure that it will, when we have jobs again at the church, I can tell you that my family will still come first. Putting God first does not mean putting CHURCH above your family, in my new opinion. Somehow, we feel that the Lord has directed us in more ways than just changing churches this year. We've made some radical changes in our lives. For the better, I would say.

Now, let me just say that church is STILL on the top of our list of priorities as a family, and we don't just hang out at home when we feel like it every Sunday, believe me, that would never happen. But if we have been under some pretty heavy stress during the week, or if we want to go out of town for some relaxation, we DO take a Sunday off here and there, whereas before we pretty much never did that because I was in charge of this or Bert was in charge of that. Things are different right now; how long that remains so is yet to be seen.


I led my congregation to stop having evening services 4-5 yrs. ago. We do small groups and encourage family time for our people.

As I read your post I began to wonder that since each Christian has been gifted for some ministry to advance the cause of Christ, what ministry are you involved in that uses your spiritual gift/s? I do not see any instruction in the Word that gives us the ok to retire from what God has called each one of us to do for Him in the way of ministry. If we read Eph. 4:11-16, we see that the church and those who make it up, can never reach spiritual maturity and wholeness and Christlikeness and unity until all are involved in ministry. In Paul's teachings he would say that all the parts of the body must be active in the body is to be healthy.

Yes, there are times for withdrawl so that we have time to recharge, but it has been my experience that the goal for too many is not a time for spiritual renewal and recharging, but quitting what God has gifted them to do.

[Judy McDonald]

When a friend who had grown up in the Nazarene Church in Oklahoma found out our church no longer had Sunday night services, or even traditional Sunday School classes in the morning, she quipped, "The next thing you know, you'll be dancing!"

[Ron Davis]

When a friend who had grown up in the Nazarene Church in Oklahoma found out our church no longer had Sunday night services, or even traditional Sunday School classes in the morning, she quipped, "The next thing you know, you'll be dancing!"

The first thought that crossed my mind as a response was "I certainly hope so."

[Carol Kane]

Pete:

Rick and I use the three prong theory: 1. God, 2. Family and 3. Church.

[Ron Davis]

Pete:

Rick and I use the three prong theory: 1. God, 2. Family and 3. Church.

What does that look like in our daily life. I guess I am asking for an example of putting God ahead of family. Many people are unable to distinguish between God and church but by your list I believe you recognize the distinction. But if we exclude the church, family, and our neighbors what is left to do for God?

[Bruce Carriker]

Interesting question, Pete.

First of all, the Wesleyan church did not have Sunday night services. The first few weeks of that made me wonder if the Lord approved of that!!

I can't find anything that indicates that the early church met Sunday mornings and Sunday evenings. In fact, I can't find anything that really nails down time at all...just the first day of the week. Since they were Christians meeting in a Jewish culture and NOT on the Sabbath, I'm guessing they probably met in the evenings, since they would have been about their work during the day.

I find it curious that we sanctify our habits and practices, without any Biblical support for them, and then question others when they don't adhere to the "norms" we've invented.

[Carol Kane]

Ron, as a PW in the Naz I do recognze the distinction between church and God. Sadly all too often a lot of Ministers do not. As to the question as to where neighbors fall, in our home we view neighbors and friends as extended family. In the Pastorate there has to be balance. I have seen far too many PK's out in the world because dad and mom were far too busy or had their priorities messed up putting church work far too often above the needs of their children. I have seen good lay men and women devote all their time to church and their families suffer to the point of breaking up. One has to question is that of God? My answer is definately not.

If we live as those called by God and are part of His family then our lives are ordered differently.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

my life is serving Christ. That means that no matter where my feet step - i am His hands and His feet. i serve Him in the hospital the same as i serve Him in His Sanctuary.

Ah - yes - church? No - church has no importance in my life. Church in and of itself has caused me more pain and heartache than any other institution or place on the planet. The wars, politics, angers, - the negatives that can be found in *church* - i have no place in my life - ever.

If it were *church*..........i would never go back.

It isn't church to me - it is His Sanctuary. That is a huge difference to me. Yes, my life is His Sanctuary and He speaks to me in my *hot date* time with Him regarding many issues. (Some issues are so painful i intentionally shut it out so i won't hear.....i am trying to learn to listen to all things.) But, in His Dwelling place -that is where i want to be.

His Sanctuary is the highest priority in my life. His Sanctuary is the axis upon which my world evolves. When His axis isn't in place other things that seem proper become selfish and bend/warp the very thing that puts all things in balance.

It is so interesting to me that people will try to arrange church to their own definition. When one joins a debate team, cheerleading club, band, soccer team - whatever- you join because you want to be a part of the group and you don't pick and choose which game you will play, which song you will play, which subject you will debate --- you become part of the team and want the team to win.

Don't want to *live* there?

Well - speaking as a sports mom - you *live* there.

Where do you want to *live*???

We all do what we really WANT to do....

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

i want to address the issue of *pastor families* getting things out of balance, thus causing major problems.

i am a pastor's kid.
i am a pastor's wife.

i have seen thousands of families during my lifetime - struggle with having a healthy marriage/family.

People bury themselves in careers, churches, Lions Clubs, Soup Kitchens, sports, hobbies - ect ect ect.....

It comes down to communication and affection - not getting things out of balance and not having time for each other.

Why do i say this?

Well, the southern roots dig deep and i know the hours spent in the fields, milkig those cows - only to come home at night and continue shelling those peas until sometimes 3:00 in the morning.... Many times the wife and husband see each other - - to ride in the buggy on Sunday Morning.

Times of restlessnes, mid-life crisis, rebellion - should not be times where the church or other such organization gets blamed for the problems. If it wasn't the church or other such organization - it would have been something else.

The real story comes back to the axis of life - what is your axis??? We all havea one - -

Just because you attend church doesn't mean you enter His Sanctuary.

[Carol Kane]

Belinda,

You are right the church as a whole is not to blame, however, the blame rests on how Pastors and leadership view the Pastors Role. I have seen Retired Elders who have had great ministry....but their children are anywhere else but Saved and Sanctified. I have seen laymen and women who because over over involvement in the church have had their marriages break-up.

As the granddaughter of a Nazarene Elder I have seen my Aunts and Uncles not get saved till they were on their death bed. Now I realze that is their choice, but when asked for a reason why, they quip, " I was raised in the church and had my fill of it for a long time". Sadly they have equatted "church" with a relationship with Jesus. As a Pastors Wfe, I have seen the good and the ugly. If we all do an honest examination in our hearts, Jesus calls us to BALANCE in how we minister and where our priorites need to be.

[Pete Vecchi]

His Sanctuary is the highest priority in my life. His Sanctuary is the axis upon which my world evolves. When His axis isn't in place other things that seem proper become selfish and bend/warp the very thing that puts all things in balance.

It is so interesting to me that people will try to arrange church to their own definition. When one joins a debate team, cheerleading club, band, soccer team - whatever- you join because you want to be a part of the group and you don't pick and choose which game you will play, which song you will play, which subject you will debate --- you become part of the team and want the team to win.

Don't want to *live* there?

Well - speaking as a sports mom - you *live* there.

Where do you want to *live*???

We all do what we really WANT to do....

Very well said!

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Belinda,

You are right the church as a whole is not to blame, however, the blame rests on how Pastors and leadership view the Pastors Role. I have seen Retired Elders who have had great ministry....but their children are anywhere else but Saved and Sanctified. I have seen laymen and women who because over over involvement in the church have had their marriages break-up.

As the granddaughter of a Nazarene Elder I hve seen my Aunts and Uncles not get saved till they were on their death bed. Now I realze that is their choice but when asked for a reason why, they quip, " I was raised in the church and had my fill of it for a long time". Saldly they have equatted "church" with a relationship with Jesus. As a Pastors Wfe, I have seen the good and the ugly. If we all do an honest examination in our hearts, Jesus calls us to BALANCE in how we minister and where our priorites need to be.

Hi Carol,

i appreciate your response. You have a lot of emotion/experience and feeling regarding this subject.

i took a long hot bath as i contemplated and prayed regarding my response. my response comes from a heart that has been injured more than once over the expectations of *leadership*. Putting myself, my family on a level that Jesus Himself couldn't obtain. In fact, thinking of Jesus and this subject- hmmm.....He didn't get married. So, on this subject He can't be the scriptural role model about balancing marriage/children/ministry. Perhaps, the Catholics have something here.

So, i wandered my thoughts over the Old Testament - thinking of Abraham, Jacob, King David, King Solomon. i thought of their marriages, children and ministry. i thought of their approval ranking with God Almighty. The only modeling/training i see in the Old Testament for a child is Samuel. But - he was abandoned/orphaned/given as a slave, if you please.

Yes, once - a priest was killed because of his sons behavior. But, that was Old Testament times. Someone was killed because they touched the 'holy of holies', too. We are in New Testament grace/mercy times, now.

Then, i come to the New Testament - the only modeling for raising/training children that i see is in Timothy - where he was trained at the knee of his mom and grandmother. Even so, i don't really see a model for marriage/children/ministry balance. (Did Timothy marry, have children?)

What i do see throughout scripture is mercy and grace for mistakes and rebellions. What i do see over and over is the accountability of each person for themselves.

So, i then wander my thoughts over to the godly men whom i have been honored and blessed to walk along side my journey of life. i'll always treasure my days in Kansas City for this main reason - and reason alone. You see, there are many tears shed in Kansas City because of choices and decisions that the generations have made that don't coincide with the wishes/dreams/training/beliefs of their parents - and leadership of our beloved Church. Many of the stories are tucked in special private corners for protection, because the general public can't handle the truth of life. Being giving access to some of their hearts - and even greater honor of equal access to the following generations, as well - - i witnessed mercy and grace on a level that still astonishes me. i never wanted to leave the place because - i was finally free to be human - first.

Being sanctified doesn't take my humanity away. Oh Father God - i wish -i groan with all my being - i wish it did. But, it doesn't. It does magnify my need of His mercy and grace in greater ways.

i saw first hand how there there the ones who had children who never had a rebellious moment until they hit mid-life crisis. Oh BOY - - it would take hours and hours to post the pain this causes. God was faithful - but it took a LONG time for all the pieces to be cleaned up again.

i saw first hand how there were some who hit rebellion in teen years or young adulthood - - broke many hearts - - but later were able to get things right with God.

Some of the pieces are never cleaned and made right.

As for balance and priorities - - i tried to think of a class in seminary or universities that is on this subject. No - spiritual reformation is taught but not this. i wondered why - but then i think i know why - - it isn't about balancing in a way that pleases man but pleases God.

Yes - spouses are *men* - - and children are *men*, too. Does this make the minister the master and the children/spouse -slaves? Maybe in some situations, but rather i think that we are all human within a family. i think that means that needs/desires/wishes have to be continually communicated. Sometimes they are heard and sometimes they aren't. Not because we are Sanctified more than others, but because we are frail humans and have moments of weakness (years of weakness??)

i worked for a time in a funeral home. i learned the stories of the sacrifices that those families made. Oh yes - - what i hear more from the general public is anger over high prices and the rich lifestyle of the funeral directors. What you don't hear is:

1) living in an apartment in the basement of the funeral home - or above the funeral home - in the early years of launching after school. Oh man, i know that as pastor's wife i have lived in the annex of a church below with two wee ones. My home was children's church and my bedrooms were peeked in and explored upon each and every week. i would rather live in the annex of a church than the basement of a funeral home. Interesting enough - the customers of the funeral home/people of the local congregations - neither respected the private living quarters of the *leaders*.

2) Holidays - rarely is the funeral home ever closed. Many times as we dined as friends, the director would be called out. Death isn't respector of time. Death isn't respector of marriage. Death isn't respector of children.

3)You can't act like that - you are the funeral director's son - - oh yeah, that promoted accountability. *smiles* NOT.

4) The children of funeral directors, doctors, pastors, factory workers, school teachers - all play together - and all influence each other.

The blame game - - -

i can't go there.

i have yet to find a perfect marriage or raising of children or balance of life. For you see, what is seen isn't always what is behind the closed doors. i see ones who are having to flex. i see ones who are demonstrating mercy and grace. i see ones who run when they have no support that allows them to be human. i see when those aren't given room to be human, they learn well how to put on a mask.

David - even as the annointed one - had questions and rebellious moments.
Job - even as the one chosen by God - had questions and doubt.
Elijah - in a cave ready to die.

If the greatest among us has moments that are reflective of perfect balance and leadership - found in caves of tears -

Who am i to ask, expect a different portion.

edited to add that my post doesn't reflect that i feel my thoughts are the only acceptable or honorable thoughts out there. In fact, i am sure they can be the opposite - however, they are the only thoughts that give me peace today.

[Carol Kane]

Belinda, well said my friend.:)

[William Hunter]

Since day one in the pastoral ministry, as a Chaplain, and then back in the pastoral ministry, the priority has always been God, my family, my local church, and then down the list somewhere was the district, etc.

I've taken some serious heat from a couple of DS's over my 32 plus years in the ministry because my agenda was not theirs/the dictirct agenda. I never missed the things my daughters were involved in or birthdays, etc. to attend some district function, etc. The only thing that did interrupt that was a genuine emergency and their have not been very many of those keeping me from family thngs. At times, some lay person thought my agenda should place me at their disposal any time of the day or night. Boy, have a few of them gotten heated when they found what was an emergency to them was not to me, and those few times really were not emergencies.

The result is hearing from my daughters in word and in written form that they always new they were first before the church and how much they appreciate that now as they look back. They said it has helped them find their own way in dealing with God, family, church, district now that they are pastor's wives. They found living in the "parsonage" a joy and enjoy it now as pastor's wives.

When you have been raised in a dysfuctional family and have learned what a well balanced family looks like, I was not going to let anything keep that balance from being a life expereince for my wife and daughters. God has given the wisdom needed, added His rich Presence and blessing, and now I look back with joy at the decisions I made as a husband and family. the only thing I want is to remembered as a Godly husband and a Godly father, one who lived out a deep love and commitment to his family. We are seeing so many good things as God blesses my congregation, but when it is all done, I want them talking about Jesus and not me.

For me, the greatest life I could live is to honor God, and do so in my family relationships. Jesus and my family have been everything to me.

[Mark Metcalfe]

Priority lists are highly over rated because life is fluid, not static. Christians have only one priority, and that is to live an a constant relationship with God. Everything else is constantly shuffling based on a thousand and one circumstances in life.

Church is one of the concerns of life that sometimes moves temporarily to the second slot, but before long it is replaced by another pressing concern.

In fact, most of the time church isn't even on the radar because there is nothing happening at the church to give priority to.

Again, life is in a constant state of flux.


Scott's answer is the best, IMHO.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Scott's answer is the best, IMHO.

You are a wise and perceptive man!

:)

[Bruce Carriker]

As for balance and priorities - - i tried to think of a class in seminary or universities that is on this subject. No - spiritual reformation is taught but not this. i wondered why - but then i think i know why - - it isn't about balancing in a way that pleases man but pleases God.



I felt compelled to respond to this particular portion of Belinda's reply, because someone heard and and responded. I'm guessing its been some time since Belinda was at the seminary. I was there from 2000-2005 and don't recall her name. (Of course, with our commuter-campus, non-community that doesn't mean we weren't there at the same time...but I digress.)

Dr. Judy Schwanz joined the faculty four or five years ago as professor of Pastoral Care and Counseling. One of the classes she teaches is Clergy Self-Care, and it deals with the things that are being discussed in this thread...how pastors prioritize their lives, how to balance competing demands for attention between family, church, district, etc. It is still an elective course, but it probably ought to be required, for all the reasons people have raised here.

There is hope. Things can get better. NTS realizes this problem among our clergy and is trying to respond.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Thank you for responding, Bruce...for indeed, i wasn't aware of this new addition to the staff of NTS.

Now, the big question would be -will the church allow the pastors to apply what they are being taught.

i well remember being told in very strong language at one of our seminary wives retreats - to *hang on the door of our Pastor's office* - - to not let another woman close.

Practice that one - and many times you will burn. They are determine to move past you - one way or another.

[Carol Kane]

Yup Belinda, you are so right on that point. After all we a just a Pastors Wife.:rolleyes:

[Gary Swartzlander]

The son of a lady that works for us is attending a Baptist Bible College, we were looking over the student handbook and found this regarding church attendance.

Church Involvement

"Though the intensive study of God’s Word and the regular spiritual
endeavors during the week are very valuable, we believe God desires that
the local church be a primary place of worship, instruction, fellowship,
and service for Him (Acts 2:42-47; Heb. 10:24-25). BBC views your
participation in a local church as a crucial element of your preparation
for future ministry. Therefore, we find it healthy and appropriate for
our students to attend a local church whose doctrine and teachings are
compatible with what we teach in the classroom. To those ends, the
following guidelines have been established for all students.

1. Students should be faithfully involved with their local church and
should attend all corporate worship gatherings, small group Bible
studies, Sunday School, etc., as provided by their local church. It is
assumed that such attendance will take precedence over homework,
socializing, or employment."


I'll refrain from giving my feelings on this.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

For a host of reasons this thread is on my mind a lot these days.

i have been reflecting on the days when the expectations of church were such as what Gary posted in his post. i don't think we need to go back to those days. However, as i take a honest look back at the strength of churches in general - across the board- - were they stronger back then?

i think of marriages? Are marriages stronger when expections are in place or when there is a swing mentality??

Extremes - i hate extremes no matter how they are colored.

i think in the era of moving away from being in church 5x a week -we have swung until church has become very low on the ladder of priorities. To declare that family is higher than the church - i wonder what is the church?

Oh, i agree - family is higher. God made Adam and Eve before He instituted the Church - -

But, i can color everything *family*.

After a while - where is God???

Is God and the Church the same thing?

i don't know.

Is family and the home the same thing?

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Yup Belinda, you are so right on that point. After all we a just a Pastors Wife.:rolleyes:

*smiles to you* Most of the time it is no big deal, but sometimes it is a burden. A burden that isn't wise to talk about cause we will be accused of that terrible word - whining.

i'll never forget another *official's wife* telling me (during seminary days) that she found peace when she reconciled that the church and all its functions and peoples were her husband's mistress. That she would support her husband's mistress with a smile or develop another life completely and far away from it.

[Billy Cox]

i think in the era of moving away from being in church 5x a week -we have swung until church has become very low on the ladder of priorities. To declare that family is higher than the church - i wonder what is the church?

Oh, i agree - family is higher. God made Adam and Eve before He instituted the Church - -

But, i can color everything *family*.

After a while - where is God???

Is God and the Church the same thing?

i don't know.

Is family and the home the same thing?


Do family and church have to be mutually exclusive?

Is our 'focus' on families really just an excuse to take more weekends off from church?

Why can't church be a family activity?

Are age-segregated church programs undermining families participation in the local church?

So full of questions I am...

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Do family and church have to be mutually exclusive?

Is our 'focus' on families really just an excuse to take more weekends off from church?

Why can't church be a family activity?

Are age-segregated church programs undermining families participation in the local church?

So full of questions I am...

Billy, i agree with you 100%. When churches were strong was when the church was the focal family activity center. Why is this important in my opinion? Because as much as i love my secular friends, their views don't always match with the heart of God - but it sounds so very good. If i am not careful i can become selfish pretty fast. The selfishness is cloked in terms that justifies my distancing from my Creator.

Balancing the scale becomes tricky.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

Billy - i feel the need to piggy back to our discussion.

For someone to read my responses, as a pastor's wife, it may seem that my responses are for selfish church growth reasons.

i feel it imperative to explain a portion of why i believe that there is still a great need for strong churches in our economy, communities and society structures.

One of the first things that real estate companies research is the quality of churches and schools in a given area. Why would this be important? Because it speaks of the moral fiber of the community. Why is morals important? Because no society can finanically afford to police a community that has no moral fiber within it.

We are in an era that is driving to be holistic as a person. Empowering people to say no. To take care of oneself. To stop being a push over and stand up for your rights. All of this is good and has a place in the balance. But, the push becomes too far to the other side if one isn't careful.

We all love holidays and vacations. But, social analysis are examining how the structure of our communities are changing and are discovering that there is a great desire and thirst for holidays everyday kind of mindset. The responsibilities of life, disciplines of life, committments in life - are things that are taking a back seat.

It is wonderful to learn to *lovingly and willingly letting go with those things that no longer support me and profit me positively* - if those things are not our families, churches and communities.

Sometimes the support and profit are things we need to examine on a deeper level than the immediate of how *i* have selfishly benefited from the structure.

Divorce
Abandonment
Unrest deep inside a person is on a rampage.

Security
Stedfastness
Faithfulness
Tolerance
Cooperation
Trust
Willingness
Flexibility
Commitment
Sacrifice

Words -words - words

What do we do with just words?

It is wonderful to have a seeker church, but the seeker church must be set upon a firm foundation. That firm foundation must be Jesus Christ - and we must be His hands and feet.

What can my church do for me? Hmmm......that is what the world wants us to think and analyze.

What can i do for my church? But, first -we need to know why that question would be important. Otherwise, it is duty.

[Pete Vecchi]

So full of questions I am...

Keep asking the questions, Billy -- they need to be asked...


...and honestly answered!

[Hans Deventer]

Do family and church have to be mutually exclusive?

"Have to", perhaps not. If you would ask, "are they", I'd say, mostly, yes.

Is our 'focus' on families really just an excuse to take more weekends off from church?

Of course people can only answer that for themselves, but in general, I wonder if this is so. May I ask another question instead?

Does serving God and spending time with your family have to be mutually exclusive?

I always get the impression we somehow value church services so highly as if that is the ultimate way to serve God. I think it is not. I think it isn't even the best way to be church. I lead a Bible Study group (together with a friend) that meets every 2nd and 4th Tuesday. I attend our neighbourhood cell group every 1st and 3rd Wednesday. Those groups are far more church to me than the weekly service.
Others have prayer meetings that are church to them. Again others have different meetings or activities. Church is where ever people follow Jesus together, I would say.

Why can't church be a family activity?

In that case, taking a weekend off with the family is church?

Are age-segregated church programs undermining families participation in the local church?

Don't think so.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

In that case, taking a weekend off with the family is church?

i think it is vital to take a weekend off here and there.

i think habitial taking off is harmful.