Poltical correctness, Free speech and the Gospel

[Dale Cozby]

I am wondering how many people here perceive the move into ever larger circles of PC speech as a good thing? or a bad thing? or does it have no effect on the Church and its ministry?

How much does the move toward PC speech influence the way we present the Gospel, teach our Sunday School classes and minister to the lost of the world?

For a definition(which is hard to find) we can say that PC speech is when only certain social and political viewpoints and the words and ideas that support them are acceptable in public discussion AND it is enforced by social and political influence using the power of laws, and/or itimidation, fear, and guilt to create conformity of speech AND thought.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I am wondering how many people here perceive the move into ever larger circles of PC speech as a good thing? or a bad thing? or does it have no effect on the Church and its ministry?

How much does the move toward PC speech influence the way we present the Gospel, teach our Sunday School classes and minister to the lost of the world?

For a definition(which is hard to find) we can say that PC speech is when only certain social and political viewpoints and the words and ideas that support them are acceptable in public discussion AND it is enforced by social and political influence using the power of laws, and/or itimidation, fear, and guilt to create conformity of speech AND thought.

My personal concern is not that I avoid offending people who only want to hear certain views of current events and might come down hard on me if I do. It is that I will come across as harsh and demanding and thus take away from the gospel I want to proclaim to them.

Paul put it this way: "we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ." With that in mind, I remember that I need to avoid using "loaded words" just because I feel strongly about something.

In other words, I don't need for people with "power" to force me to not use words and phrases they don't like when I describe them or their issues. I am constrained by Christ and the gospel to not offend so that the message of the gospel not be hindered. Above all else, I must properly represent Christ.

[David Cash]

I think that in general Christian speech should be gracious. Of course we still have to call sin sin and stand up for truth, but even then being as gentle as possible is a plus.

I'm not sure how far the PC thing is going to go. I hope it doesn't become an actual abridgement of our American concept of free speech.

David Cash

[Scott Daniels]

I think civility can be a Chrisitian virtue.

What counts as PC? Gender inclusion? Avoiding derogatory ethnic slurs? Being wary of using ethnic stereo-types? Sensitivity to what a people group prefer to be called as a social descriptor? Caution at creating unnecessary us/them dichotomies? Refusing to use inflamatory terms to describe people groups?

I would see those as positive (even Christian) forms of civility that would be interpreted by some as being "PC". What potentially negative forms do you see as dangerous to the gospel?

[Dale Cozby]

What counts as PC? Gender inclusion? Avoiding derogatory ethnic slurs? Caution at creating unnecessary us/them dichotomies?

What potentially negative forms do you see as dangerous to the gospel?

Perhaps, I should rephrase the question.

Do you think the church has joined the PC movement in alienating people who are NOT PC? Are we itimidating people into conforming to our version of PC?

Are the dichotomies(us/them) we create alienating people who are UN-PC? Say, if a person comes into our church and they have been raised in a church that does not allow women in the pulpit. Do we respect thier opinion even though we disagree?
OR
A person comes into the church and they are what would be called "homophobic" or "old school" are they marginalized because they aren't our version of PC?

How much conformity do we require to allow a person to be part of the church? How PC do they need to be before they are allowed to participate?
OR what happens if they are "too PC" and alienate people that are not?

How do we reconcile the opposing opinions and attitudes between the various aspects of the PC battle within the church?
Do we sometimes take the route of remaining silent on issues because what we might say would offend ? Are members cowed in speech because of fear of being labeled "PC" or "Not-PC". Is the church having difficulty accepting people that are outside its version of PC?

That is why I had a hard time giving a definition of "PC" in my first post.

Does that make sense?

[Brad Mercer]

Good question, Dale.

In the earliest days of NewStart-Frisco, we started a men's Bible study. Two of the men were from very different worldviews. One was unchurched and suspicious of church. Expecting it to be condemning and controlling, he deliberately tried to provoke us with views he was certain (frequently rightly) that we'd disagree with. He'd make morally questionable assertions, make broad brush attacks on church and Christianity, embrace new age ideas and look for anger, control or rejection.

The other guy was everything the first guy expected the church to be. His background was hardcore KJV charismatic Calvinist. He was constantly attacking various sins and heresies.

It was easy to love them individually and separately. They really were both great guys. The new age guy was intelligent and funny and fun. The loud fundamentalist was, underneath his gruff exterior, just as soft as mush, and a fiercely faithful friend.

The challenge was to love them together, when they were in the same room at the same time, each representing everything the other feared and loathed. Every week when we got to the end of another Bible study and they were both still hanging in there with us, it felt like a major triumph.

Our favorite Bible verse in those days was: "Above all, love each other deeply, fervently, warmly, constantly, unfailingly, earnestly, as if your life depended on it, because love covers over a multitude of sins." I Peter 4:8 (with the translation of that key modifier listed from ever version of the Bible in my software program)

My own epiphany came when a dear Swedish friend was talking peace and neutrality on 9/11 as we watched the twin towers collapse. I reacted with vicious words and instantly retracted them, realizing for the first time that my friend was more important to me than my opinions -- even my correct and important opinions.

We loved those two guys so deeply that they couldn't walk away from it. Eventually they both became softer, gentler, more humble, and learned to love each other more than their opinions. They are good, sweet, strong men, and precious friends to us.

There is room in the true church for anyone who wants to be loved. See my "signature" line below.

[Scott Daniels]

Personally, I don't like the term PC.

We speak truth in love. So our speech should be truthful and loving and we should encourage those who belong to the fellowship of Christ to speak that way.

So to say that God has certain intentions for our sexuality is truthful and can be said in a loving way. Saying, "God hates 'fill in whatever derogatory term you want to use for gay persons'" - is neither truthful nor loving.

We don't say those things because we are trying to adhere to some cultural politic but because we are shaped by a Kingdom politic. I think it should concern us some when the culture is giving the church lessons in civility.

[Barbara Moulton]

A person comes into the church and they are what would be called "homophobic" or "old school" are they marginalized because they aren't our version of PC?

If someone comes to our church who speaks hatefully and harshly against homosexuals, it would not be our intent to marginalize them but they simply wouldn't find any likeminded person in the congregation to join them in their verbage.

If someone comes to our church who regards homosexual behaviour as sin but who seeks to treat all with love and grace then they would find themselves at home.

OUr goal is to lift Jesus up, not to condemn people. I don't believe that's being PC...unless PC stands for the "pattern of Christ".

[Dale Cozby]

Brad, That is esentially what I am trying to get to. As you know I am in the heart of SBC country, but also a very diverse city.

So we get people who come and spend time trying to figure out where we stand on the "PC" issues concerning the church ministry and society as a whole. As you know, the mention of the name Nazarene is like a foreign word down here.

The challenge is to blend the "Old School" with the "New Agers"(for lack of better terms) into a church that is unified and able to speak without fear of the subtle shunning that takes place to the apparent non-conformists who ever they may be.

Sorry Scott, I am aware that in intellgencia circles there is some sensitivity to the use of that term.:basic03 It has been thown around to describe college campuses alot. Perhaps the professors here can give us a better term to describe this idealogical struggle so "PC" can be left to the media and political canidates.:fav03

[Bob Carabbio]

The way it WILL work -

Is through the medium of taxation - like the prohibition of certain types of political presentations both from the pulpit and in literature displays - which cause the Church to be re-categorized out of it's tax exempt status.

However with the EU push toward "tolerance" will likely be the larger problem.

The Christian church is fundamentally INTOLERANT toward many things that the EU considers "normal" - like various religions, racial discrimination, sexual preference, etc.

The very core of what we stand for will eventually be illegal to proclaim, because in doing so we broadcast our intolerance of those things that are opposed to the teaching of the Bible. You can't get much MORE INTOLERANT (in thw world's perspective) than proclaiming that Jesus is the ONLY way.

Simply put, the businesses will be forced to adhere to the EU standards in order to participate in the world economy, and people IN the businesses will have to support the corporate mandate of tolerance (the trend is already in motion kicked off by the various "harrassment" movements). Make no mistake, the "Hate crimes" bill was only the beginning of the slippery slope toward domination.

[Billy Cox]

The very core of what we stand for will eventually be illegal to proclaim, because in doing so we broadcast our intolerance of those things that are opposed to the teaching of the Bible. You can't get much MORE INTOLERANT (in thw world's perspective) than proclaiming that Jesus is the ONLY way.


In my reading of the Gospels, I am still amazed that one verse so often trumps the inclusiveness of the overall Gospel...and then we make the unfounded presumption that 'Christianity' is the only way.

[Dale Cozby]

I am still amazed that one verse so often trumps the inclusiveness of the overall Gospel...and then we make the unfounded presumption that 'Christianity' is the only way.

1. If the sacrificial death and atonement of Jesus on the cross is NOT needed for salvation, Then Christ died in vain.
2. If God made another way to be in heaven than to believe in the sacrifice and atonement of Jesus, then Jesus died for nothing.

Please define what you mean by unfounded. My definition for that word means to have no foundation. I believe Jesus is the cornerstone, "The" foundation. IF we take the foundation out of Christianity then we have nothing.

I also think the Bible is God's word. His message to mankind.
Which verse in the Bible do you feel we need to throw out or dismiss to be inclusive of other religions?

[Billy Cox]

Perhaps I should say that we are too quick to believe that 'institutional evangelical Christianity' is the sole vehicle of salvation based on Jesus' statement that 'No one comes to the Father except through me.' This is the unfounded assumption of which I speak.

I am not saying that atonement through Christ is unnecessary.

Christianity makes some exclusive claims, but exclusivity is not the same as intolerance unless we neglect the inclusive flavor of the Gospel.

[Randy Wise]

Perhaps I should say that we are too quick to believe that 'institutional evangelical Christianity' is the sole vehicle of salvation based on Jesus' statement that 'No one comes to the Father except through me.' This is the unfounded assumption of which I speak.

I am not saying that atonement through Christ is unnecessary.

Christianity makes some exclusive claims, but exclusivity is not the same as intolerance unless we neglect the inclusive flavor of the Gospel.


No JESUS makes it plain HE is the way to the Father. I follow Him. Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead and all come before HIM not you. Many will be told "I don't know you", which isn't the full message of the gospels but a very important message that needs to be preach to unbelievers. You are not helping by hinting they can live without jesus or reject Jesus and live.
Randy

[Barbara Moulton]

You are not helping by hinting they can live without jesus or reject Jesus and live.
Randy

One of the problems I have realized about evangelicals is not that we tell people they can't have eternal life unless they have Christ, we imply that they can't have eternal life unless they have accepted Christ in a form that we have.

There are many wonderful Christians who have never wept at a prayer rail during a salvation meeting. They can't point to the moment when they asked Jesus into their heart. (In fact that phrase seems very strange to them).

When I was in my early 20's...even in my early years of ministry, I honestly thought that they weren't "real Christians".

How I've learned different in the years since. How God convicted me of my former attitudes.

[Randy Wise]

One of the problems I have realized about evangelicals is not that we tell people they can't have eternal life unless they have Christ, we imply that they can't have eternal life unless they have accepted Christ in a form that we have.


This statement implies different from what you are stating:
I am still amazed that one verse so often trumps the inclusiveness of the overall Gospel

The one verse states Jesus is the only way to the Father not how those who have already come to Christ choose to worship God. If Billy meant otherwise than I misunderstood his message.

Randy

[Martijn van Beveren]

This statement implies different from what you are stating:
I am still amazed that one verse so often trumps the inclusiveness of the overall Gospel

The one verse states Jesus is the only way to the Father not how those who have already come to Christ choose to worship God. If Billy meant otherwise than I misunderstood his message.
...
Many will be told "I don't know you", which isn't the full message of the gospels but a very important message that needs to be preach to unbelievers. You are not helping by hinting they can live without jesus or reject Jesus and live.

Randy

Sorry Randy, but I think that this way is just to linear thinking. Though Christ is the way to the father, I wonder, did he give us a certain method, or a "how to" book? You might wanna try the navigators, they have some of these methods just written out....
And with a statement that only Christians goto heaven and leave the rest out of the party is just a narrow minded way of thinking I rather see as a sinking ship. Didn't God so love the world? Including all of the people. I don't think that God has meant it in just this way.
the "I don't know you" part hasn't got to do with the unbelievers. Have you ever considerd there might be a different way of interpretation here? This verse has to do with seeing your neighbor, our friend in need, the people of the street, the hungry, the poor, the needy. Give them food, clothing, a warm place, love them. If you fail to see that Jesus points us towards the people in need, friendship, love, a hope and grace that is beyond human pain, then I am very worried.

marty

[Randy Wise]

Sorry Randy, but I think that this way is just to linear thinking. Though Christ is the way to the father, I wonder, did he give us a certain method, or a "how to" book? You might wanna try the navigators, they have some of these methods just written out....
And with a statement that only Christians goto heaven and leave the rest out of the party is just a narrow minded way of thinking I rather see as a sinking ship. Didn't God so love the world? Including all of the people. I don't think that God has meant it in just this way.
the "I don't know you" part hasn't got to do with the unbelievers. Have you ever considerd there might be a different way of interpretation here? This verse has to do with seeing your neighbor, our friend in need, the people of the street, the hungry, the poor, the needy. Give them food, clothing, a warm place, love them. If you fail to see that Jesus points us towards the people in need, friendship, love, a hope and grace that is beyond human pain, then I am very worried.

marty

Marty, I have read where Jesus stated "I tell you the truth" many times.
When someone is offended by His teachings does His message than become a lie? Those that listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus and He will raise them up on the last day. Perhaps you can't point me to the scriptures that show that it is OK with Jesus to reject him and live?

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you

Randy

[David Cash]

We are definitely to love everybody and minister to their needs. This will help bring them to Christ because God loves them also and our efforts to help are an outworking of His love. This doesn't change the fact that when God loved the world He made one way and only one way for people to experience eternal life. That one and only way is Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection. God has also clearly stipulated that the only way to access this salvation that Jesus offers is through faith. This package, this historical Christian gospel, is God's greatest expression of love for all mankind. When we start to suggest that one can somehow find eternal life and peace with God through any means other than direct faith in Jesus we are suggesting that God's love is inadequate.

I think a common misperception among religious people is that somehow our faith is the good thing we do to earn our way with God. The truth is, however, that faith isn't the good thing we do, but the helpless thing with which we grasp His saving power. I don't have to look at nonevangelicals and say "Are they nice enough?" or "Are they holy enough?" I have to ask whether they have been saved through faith in Christ. (In which case I'd think of them as evangelical whether they belonged to a proffessing evangelical church or not.)

I can recognize that there are saved people in churches that don't accurately preach salvation. I can recognize that some people might have come to saving faith while thinking in terms other than the ones that we use. I could not accept the idea that there are people who aren't trusting in Jesus for their personal salvation who are really saved. Am I right in thinking that this is what you people are saying too?

David Cash

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him.

I think we all accept that. The disagreement is on exactly what it means to come "through" Jesus.

Jesus made it possible for Abraham to be saved even though Abraham never even heard of Jesus. The same could be said of Noah, Moses, Job, etc. You get the idea.

Did that kind of grace have to cease with the ressurection? In other words, if Job was "saved," is it not possible that a guy just like him in 35 A.D. could also be "saved" even though he never heard of Jesus, either? Is it not possible that there are those alive today who do not have an understanding (or even knowledge) of Jesus, but through God's grace have also exercised faith just as Abraham did? It remains true that salvation is dependent on Jesus but that salvation isn't necessarily reserved only for those who know and understand the historical Jesus.

(Given this line of thinking, the question always come up, "If that is true, then why evangelize?" The answer lies in the idea that the Kingdom of God is not simply a matter of heaven and hell. Christianity offers a better life here and now!)

Wilson

[David Cash]

Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him.

I think we all accept that. The disagreement is on exactly what it means to come "through" Jesus.

Jesus made it possible for Abraham to be saved even though Abraham never even heard of Jesus. The same could be said of Noah, Moses, Job, etc. You get the idea.

(Given this line of thinking, the question always come up, "If that is true, then why evangelize?" The answer lies in the idea that the Kingdom of God is not simply a matter of heaven and hell. Christianity offers a better life here and now!)

Wilson

I'm not so sure that Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc. were totally ignorant of Jesus. Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day. Moses prophecied of a coming prophet. Job had that famous line about knowing that his redeemer lives and will stand at the last day on the earth. The Old Testament did look ahead to Christ, even though there were many details they didn't know about Him.

I agree that Christianity offers a better life here and now, but the only way into that better life is to be born again through faith in Jesus Christ.

David Cash

[Hans Deventer]

Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him.

I think we all accept that. The disagreement is on exactly what it means to come "through" Jesus.

I think it means living your life like Jesus, having His priorities. That's how I read Matt 25:31-48. the Sermon on the Mount and the rest of His teachings.

Contrary to any religion, in Christianity, the truth is not a set of statements or dogma's but it is a Person, our Lord Jesus. The Bible also makes clear that a faith that merely consists of believing the truth as in accepting certain things as reality won't save you, for the demons know reality too and they tremble. (James 2:19).

I am getting more and more convinced that Jesus did not come to die for our sins in order to get us to heaven while we could carry on with business as usual. He came to show the way, His entire life is the way.

I think we will be surprised to find who is and who is not in the Kingdom. Though we should not, for He warned us:

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Doing the will of the Father is exactly what Jesus' life was all about. It was incomprehensible from any other viewpoint. I pray mine will be too. One may call that holiness indeed.

[Randy Wise]

I think it means living your life like Jesus, having His priorities. That's how I read Matt 25:31-48. the Sermon on the Mount and the rest of His teachings.



I think we will be surprised to find who is and who is not in the Kingdom. Though we should not, for He warned us:
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'Doing the will of the Father is exactly what Jesus' life was all about. It was incomprehensible from any other viewpoint. I pray mine will be too. One may call that holiness indeed.

It is the Fathers Will to believe in the Son. I often wonder why the Lord said "I never knew you" about that group of people.
Randy

[Barbara Moulton]

Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him.

I think we all accept that. The disagreement is on exactly what it means to come "through" Jesus.



Not only that, I think about the fact that Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father"

Faith in Christ brings us into a relationship with our Abba Father through adoption by His spirit. The only way to have that relationship is through Jesus Christ. What a blessed reality in my life...that I have my Heavenly Father cheering me on.

But although people from other faiths might not havea relationship with Abba Father...can't they in some way know God?

[David Pettigrew]

In my reading of the Gospels, I am still amazed that one verse so often trumps the inclusiveness of the overall Gospel...and then we make the unfounded presumption that 'Christianity' is the only way.

A much bigger issue than PC (at least in the USA) is EC, or evangelical correctness. I think Billy's statement and the strong reaction to it are a good example of this.

There are certain things that are "safe" to say, and certain things that are "unsafe" (lest you be thought theologically errant, or offend those that are more "old school", to use Dale's term.)

Here are a couple of more examples of what I'm talking about. Again, what I say mostly applies in the USA:

If the '08 election came down to say, Mike Huckabee, former Arkansas governor and Southern Baptist preacher, vs. Hillary Clinton, which bumper sticker could I, as a pastor, put on my car and offend the least people in my church? (before anyone goes nuts, I never put political bumper stickers on my vehicles of any kind.)

A man left our church a while back because another layman said that he didn't think prayer in school should be something we as Christians support.

Here's my favorite: a member of my community informed me last December that my Christmas cards should say "Merry Christmas" and NOT "Happy Holidays." Is that EC speech gone wild or what? :basic03

[Martijn van Beveren]

I think it means living your life like Jesus, having His priorities. That's how I read Matt 25:31-48. the Sermon on the Mount and the rest of His teachings.

Contrary to any religion, in Christianity, the truth is not a set of statements or dogma's but it is a Person, our Lord Jesus. The Bible also makes clear that a faith that merely consists of believing the truth as in accepting certain things as reality won't save you, for the demons know reality too and they tremble. (James 2:19).

I am getting more and more convinced that Jesus did not come to die for our sins in order to get us to heaven while we could carry on with business as usual. He came to show the way, His entire life is the way.



So let me rephrase this for a minute.. out goes the concept of original sin.... The whole building bridge theory collapses. Though we are short coming, we should focus on our next kindred and live how Jesus lived. we are not aiming on forgiveness of sin, we are working on our way of life.
Which gives me a sudden idea, also triggered by Wilson who mentioned something similar in a message or so earlier. This might mean that being someone who does not really know Christ in person, or not at all, or has a different(twisted,wrong,garbled) view of Him (or the Father, since we are not able to see the whole pic), can still get to the Father, through Christ, becauce of the way of life which is giving, humble, loving, honest, selflessness, sharing, supporting, and so on. Living the life of Christ is being the life of Christ. Am I going good so far?
Just one year of bible school does not make me a theologian, but I like to wrestle with my thought over these concepts (and everybody else's if you don't mind ;) LOL ).


I think we will be surprised to find who is and who is not in the Kingdom. Though we should not, for He warned us:

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Doing the will of the Father is exactly what Jesus' life was all about. It was incomprehensible from any other viewpoint. I pray mine will be too. One may call that holiness indeed.

Yup....
Marty

[Barbara Moulton]

I could not accept the idea that there are people who aren't trusting in Jesus for their personal salvation who are really saved. Am I right in thinking that this is what you people are saying too?

David Cash


I am content to leave it in the hands of God. He is a God of ultimate justice and ultimate grace. He knows the heart of everyone who approaches him and I can trust Him to sort it all out.

In the meantime, my responsiblity is clear, to live so that Christ will be exulted in my life and the gospel will be attractive.

One of the things that I find interesting about the Matthew 25 passage is that we always pull out verses 41-46 to prove that there will be people who don't "make it". They are the goats.

But we seem to overlook the fact that some of the "sheep" seem surprised to learn that when they were doing acts of compassion, they were actually doing it for Christ.

[Hans Deventer]

So let me rephrase this for a minute.. out goes the concept of original sin.... The whole building bridge theory collapses. Though we are short coming, we should focus on our next kindred and live how Jesus lived. we are not aiming on forgiveness of sin, we are working on our way of life.

Wait a minute, mister Van Beveren! :basic03 You're going a little too fast.
First, you cannot live like Jesus apart from His presence and grace.
You cannot love, unless you understand you are deeply loved yourself, despite your sins. So we are not aiming for forgiveness of sin anymore because that is what God already gave us! But without that forgiveness, that grace, there is no going one single step in the right direction.

Second, living like Jesus is what the meaning of "faith" is. It is not some mental assent to a doctrine. It is not even believing the right things about God. It is "taking up your cross and following Jesus".

Which gives me a sudden idea, also triggered by Wilson who mentioned something similar in a message or so earlier. This might mean that being someone who does not really know Christ in person, or not at all, or has a different(twisted,wrong,garbled) view of Him (or the Father, since we are not able to see the whole pic), can still get to the Father, through Christ, because of the way of life which is giving, humble, loving, honest, selflessness, sharing, supporting, and so on. Living the life of Christ is being with Him. Am I going good so far?

Well, all we have is the word of the Lord Himself in this, Matt 25:31-48. And the fact that the Lord is a righteous judge and that it is HIS judgement and not mine. So I am not going to say who is in and who is out, I am saying you need to trust Jesus.

[Martijn van Beveren]

Wait a minute, mister Van Beveren! :basic03 You're going a little too fast.
First, you cannot live like Jesus apart from His presence and grace.
You cannot love, unless you understand you are deeply loved yourself, despite your sins. So we are not aiming for forgiveness of sin anymore because that is what God already gave us! But without that forgiveness, that grace, there is no going one single step in the right direction.


Well, sorry mister Deventer... ;) Maybe I used the wrong metaphor or said it the wrong way. We all are limited by what we say and what we interpretate. So yes, I agree with you on what you say. And I do reflect on the deep and everlasting love and forgiveness of the Father for us. And without this Grace we would not last a day, minute, second, or whatever time frame/dimension your used to.
I consider the idea of a "original sin" as something to be a part of theology that just doesn't fit anymore. But is this so, or am I messing things up here?



Second, living like Jesus is what the meaning of "faith" is. It is not some mental assent to a doctrine. It is not even believing the right things about God. It is "taking up your cross and following Jesus".


True again... I will not yield any more mental power to this, for I believe that it's more than just shear thought or contemplation. I believe that through the Grace of the Father and through the life of Jesus the Holy spirit Guides me and shows the way to be Christlike. (not that I will stop responding in NazNet):basic05


Well, all we have is the word of the Lord Himself in this, Matt 25:31-48. And the fact that the Lord is a righteous judge and that it is HIS judgment and not mine. So I am not going to say who is in and who is out, I am saying you need to trust Jesus.

When I read this part of scripture, it sort of stings... Do I clothe? do I give food? Do I make better? Do I give shelter? Do I do these things?
It makes me feel inadequate to the need I see in the world. Words are stuck in my throat. Sadness overshadows me, it hurts, pain.
I believe that God works in all good ways, still many people are blinded and almost all are selfish (including me). A part of us is not willing to let go of pride, stubbornness, ego. And many still forget to look at history. The force of total destruction if we take it the selfish way against the overpowering force of Love if we trust in Him.
When do we let go? Pick up our cross, and let the Holy spirit guide us, give us peace, grace, love and forgiveness. Through (and with) Him we can do anything.

In His Grace
Marty

PS: I think about seeing the movie "amazing grace"... not just a movie but a whole campaign behind it too.:fav18 (talking about righteousness)

[Randy Wise]

Not only that, I think about the fact that Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father"

Faith in Christ brings us into a relationship with our Abba Father through adoption by His spirit. The only way to have that relationship is through Jesus Christ. What a blessed reality in my life...that I have my Heavenly Father cheering me on.

But although people from other faiths might not havea relationship with Abba Father...can't they in some way know God?


It is not for us to choose how to forgive sin. It is for God to choose how sin is forgiven by Him. The forgiveness of sin is found in Jesus alone. One part of the new covenant message is that God will hold all people accountable for their own sin as the law came down from Moses to the children of abraham not the whole world. The gospels are sent to the whole world both blessing and curse depending on which path you choose. Unforgiven sin brings judgment so its not just rejecting Jesus that sends people to hell it's peoples own sin.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

A much bigger issue than PC (at least in the USA) is EC, or evangelical correctness. I think Billy's statement and the strong reaction to it are a good example of this.

There are certain things that are "safe" to say, and certain things that are "unsafe" (lest you be thought theologically errant, or offend those that are more "old school", to use Dale's term.)

:basic03

Jesus must be old school when it comes to salvation through Him alone as He is the gate. :basic01 On a more serious note since Jesus is the gate don't you think we should be united in that message to the unsaved receiving our warnings prompted by love of the eternal consequences of their choice regarding rejection of Jesus as Lord and savior? You do have the Lords own words on the matter. It's hard enough as it is with those in Judaism without those in Judaism claiming that the Pope ruled they have a special relationship with God regardless of Jesus. A Jesus who preached to the nation of Israel as a Jew. We are only taking those same words to all nations.

Randy

[Kevin Rector]

Jesus must be old school when it comes to salvation through Him alone as He is the gate.

When I read this I didn't like it. I didn't know exactly what it was so I mused on it for a bit. I realized that I really really don't like the analogy of Jesus as a gate. I think that it is not even close to what is meant by "no one comes to the father but through me."

No, I think a much better analogy is that of Jesus as the guide to the Father or that Jesus is an "example" of the Father. No one comes to the father unless they are guided there through the life (revelation) of Jesus.

Problems with a gate analogy:

1. Gates can close. Jesus is always open to us.
2. Jesus and the Father are the one and same God (in our doctrine of Trinity we must be careful that we don't become tri-theists). Perhaps this verse is more about how we can see God (God in the flesh) and so know God and less about how we "get in" to Christianity.
3. Gates are passive. That is a gate is just there, it doesn't do anything on its own unless acted upon by an outside force. This analogy leads to an implication that getting to the Father is something that we do when we choose to open the gate and walk through it. But if Jesus is guide that is active - we still must choose to follow the leading of Jesus, but he is the one who is showing us the way rather than just sitting there waiting for us to pass through him.
4. A gate implies a fence. It implies that our faith is about "getting into" where God is at. If we see Jesus as guide rather than gate we can see that life and faith is not about getting from "out here" to "in there". Rather it is about a path and it is about walking on this path. A path does eventually have a "there" that we want to get to and Jesus guides the way. But there is value in the journey and that is far too often overlooked. There are many different paths, and Jesus happens to know the way to where we want to go, but he also know the path that provides the best life.
5. Perhaps the worst part of a gate analogy is that it leads the church to believe that we are gates too (as such far too often we presume to know who is on which side of what fence). But we're not gates, we are guides. We've found the master guide and we want to help people to get where they are going, so we point the way to the master guide. We've walked further down the path and so when people are lost (hmmmm) we save them (double hmmmm) from their wanderings and show them the way to the one who is the Way.

[Billy Cox]

2. Jesus and the Father are the one and same God (in our doctrine of Trinity we must be careful that we don't become tri-theists). Perhaps this verse is more about how we can see God (God in the flesh) and so know God and less about how we "get in" to Christianity.


Well, God has obviously delegated salvation to Jesus, so the salvation by faith that Abraham benefited from is no longer available. :basic03


5. Perhaps the worst part of a gate analogy is that it leads the church to believe that we are gates too (as such far too often we presume to know who is on which side of what fence).

Yep, this is what I have been saying in this thread. If we are confused about the difference between the Bride and the Bridegroom, it's won't be long before we start acting like salvation comes through us. Maybe we are already there.

[Hans Deventer]

I consider the idea of a "original sin" as something to be a part of theology that just doesn't fit anymore. But is this so, or am I messing things up here?

The interesting thing is that from a Wesleyan point of view, that really doesn't matter all that much. Wesley said that no one would go to hell because of original sin, but because of the sins we committed ourselves. The famous "all have sinned" says more about actual sinning than about original sin.
I consider original sin to be mainly a bent towards sinning, a tendency. We are no longer like Adam once was: completely free to chose right or wrong. Our predicament is that apart from the grace of God, we can do nothing right. I guess that predicament can be called original sin.

But Wesley also said that there is no one without grace, and we sin, not because there is no grace available, but because we don't use the grace that is! So man without grace, to Wesley, was a logical construction you would not meet in real life.

When I read this part of scripture, it sort of stings... Do I clothe? do I give food? Do I make better? Do I give shelter? Do I do these things?
It makes me feel inadequate to the need I see in the world. Words are stuck in my throat. Sadness overshadows me, it hurts, pain.
I believe that God works in all good ways, still many people are blinded and almost all are selfish (including me). A part of us is not willing to let go of pride, stubbornness, ego. And many still forget to look at history. The force of total destruction if we take it the selfish way against the overpowering force of Love if we trust in Him.
When do we let go? Pick up our cross, and let the Holy spirit guide us, give us peace, grace, love and forgiveness. Through (and with) Him we can do anything.

Just made me think of an old Roxy Music song:

In every dream home a heartache
And every step I take
Takes me further from heaven
Is there a heaven?
I`d like to think so
Standards of living
They´re rising daily
But home oh sweet home
It´s only a saying
From bell push to faucet
In smart town apartment
The cottage is pretty
The main house a palace
Penthouse perfection
But what goes on
What to do there
Better pray there

Open plan living
Bungalow ranch style
All of its comforts
Seem so essential
I bought you mail order
My plain wrapper baby
Your skin is like vinyl
The perfect companion
You float my new pool
De luxe and delightful
Inflatable doll
My role is to serve you
Disposable darling
Can´t throw you away now
Immortal and life size
My breath is inside you
I´ll dress you up daily
And keep you till death sighs
Inflatable doll
Lover ungrateful
I blew up your body
But you blew my mind

Oh those heartaches
Dreamhome heartaches


We build our dream homes, and indeed "All of its comforts seem so essential", but it ultimately "blows your mind".

I'm slowly on trying to understand and learn that my dream home is Jesus' love. And have that love take the place of all my "essential comforts". But it isn't easy. As I wrote elsewhere, God doesn't seem particularly interested in providing the safety and comforts I would like, He seems to be much more into spiritual development, into growing in Christlikeness. So the very surrendering to Him is already a huge step when you realize this is so.

[Randy Wise]

Jesus is the gate - no one gets the Father except by Him.

When I read this I didn't like it.

But that doesn't make it a lie.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

Well, God has obviously delegated salvation to Jesus, so the salvation by faith that Abraham benefited from is no longer available. :basic03

Who sent Jesus to us? Those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to Jesus. That is God's plan for our salvation. It is the Spirit of Christ that is in us. Jesus gave those that believe in Him the Gift the Father gave Him. As the Father is in Him so He shall be in us. As Jesus lives because of the living Father so we shall live because of Him. These statements are the Lords teachings. The circumcision of the Spirit on our hearts is not a act of man but of the Lord. Who did you go to, to receive that circumcision?

Randy

[David Pettigrew]

Jesus is the gate - no one gets the Father except by Him.



But that doesn't make it a lie.

Randy

I've searched the gospels and can't find a scripture where Jesus refers to Himself as "the gate". Shepherd, door, way, truth, life, but no gate.

[Billy Cox]

Yes, and Abraham and those who by faith followed God in the Old Testament also had the spirit of Christ although their brain didn't have a category labeled 'Jesus Christ'.

I believe that salvation by faith is synonymous with salvation by Christ...whether one has heard an evangelistic presentation or not. We tend to distort the gospel when we reduce 'faith' to 'intellectual assent'. Such a distortion replaces faith with dogma and a checklist of theological propositions.

[Kevin Rector]

But that doesn't make it a lie.

I have responded by starting a new thread here:

http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=9982

[Randy Wise]

I am content to leave it in the hands of God. He is a God of ultimate justice and ultimate grace. He knows the heart of everyone who approaches him and I can trust Him to sort it all out.

In the meantime, my responsiblity is clear, to live so that Christ will be exulted in my life and the gospel will be attractive.

One of the things that I find interesting about the Matthew 25 passage is that we always pull out verses 41-46 to prove that there will be people who don't "make it". They are the goats.

But we seem to overlook the fact that some of the "sheep" seem surprised to learn that when they were doing acts of compassion, they were actually doing it for Christ.

Either way it doesn't affect your salvation since you accepted Jesus, but are you really willing to make a guess, which goes against what Jesus said about anothers soul? Don't you feel that it would be a act of love to warn against rejecting Jesus?
Randy

[Randy Wise]

Yes, and Abraham and those who by faith followed God in the Old Testament also had the spirit of Christ although their brain didn't have a category labeled 'Jesus Christ'.

I believe that salvation by faith is synonymous with salvation by Christ...whether one has heard an evangelistic presentation or not. We tend to distort the gospel when we reduce 'faith' to 'intellectual assent'. Such a distortion replaces faith with dogma and a checklist of theological propositions.

Does the new testament teach its ok with Jesus to reject Him and convert to Judaism because God made a covenant with Abraham? We aren't distorting anything. We have the teaching of Jesus and Jesus is the judge.

Randy

[Kevin Rector]

Does the new testament teach its ok with Jesus to reject Him and convert to Judaism because God made a covenant with Abraham? We aren't distorting anything. We have the teaching of Jesus and Jesus is the judge.

Randy

Randy, did you actually read what Billy wrote?

He did not say that it is ok to "reject" Jesus. He said (sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth Billy) that those who are saved are saved because of Jesus even if they never hear the name Jesus or knew about him in an intellectual way.

That is, Abraham was saved by faith in Jesus even though he died before Jesus was born.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I've searched the gospels and can't find a scripture where Jesus refers to Himself as "the gate". Shepherd, door, way, truth, life, but no gate.

John 10:7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

I do not, however, agree with Randy's interpretation of "the gate."

Wilson

[Randy Wise]

Randy, did you actually read what Billy wrote?

He did not say that it is ok to "reject" Jesus. He said (sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth Billy) that those who are saved are saved because of Jesus even if they never hear the name Jesus or knew about him in an intellectual way.

That is, Abraham was saved by faith in Jesus even though he died before Jesus was born.


How can a loving God hold people accountable for sin they haven't been warned of as the law came down from Moses to the children of Abraham? Apart from law there isn't accountable sin. Even those who died in the flood were judged according to the flesh that they may live according to the Spirit. God isn't unfair or unjust. I would state innocence for the young who die as well, but that doesn't change the message of the gospels and it doesn't change the fact that all will come before Jesus who is the judge. Thats why the gospel is being preached to the whole world. That being said that is not a excuse for rejecting what people have heard. What about the great many who have heard and rejected Jesus? What criteria are you using for getting around Jesus in this day? We can't change the past no matter what the outcome was, but we can warn the living about the eternal consequences of a persons choice to willfully reject Gods offer of salvation through Christ Jesus.
Randy

[David Pettigrew]

John 10:7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

I do not, however, agree with Randy's interpretation of "the gate."

Wilson


Guess I didn't look at that Strong's Concordance closely enough. Thanks, Wilson!

[David Pettigrew]

How can a loving God hold people accountable for sin they haven't been warned of as the law came down from Moses to the children of Abraham? Apart from law there isn't accountable sin. Even those who died in the flood were judged according to the flesh that they may live according to the Spirit. God isn't unfair or unjust.
Randy


So what about the approx 2 billion people in the 10/40 window, the majority of whom will likely live and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus, let alone the gospel? Is God unfair or unjust to treat them differently than those who perished in the flood? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see how we can have it both ways...

[Kevin Rector]

What criteria are you using for getting around Jesus in this day?

Randy, God bless you man, but you are practically impossible to have a dialog with. I'm gonna say it again, perhaps you'll hear it now as it's the third time it's being said (I'm even going to bold it for emphasis):

Everyone who is saved is saved because of Jesus.

There, that's about the end of it. NOBODY here is tying to "get around Jesus". Please hear that, it's the last time I'm gonna say it.

-Kevin

[Randy Wise]

Randy, God bless you man, but you are practically impossible to have a dialog with. I'm gonna say it again, perhaps you'll hear it now as it's the third time it's being said (I'm even going to bold it for emphasis):

Everyone who is saved is saved because of Jesus.

There, that's about the end of it. NOBODY here is tying to "get around Jesus". Please hear that, it's the last time I'm gonna say it.

-Kevin


Well Kevin if you preach Jesus to say someone currently in another religion and you explain the gospel and they say no thank you I don't need your Jesus or I don't need a middle man what will the outcome be for that person according to Jesus? (I think you will find that who Jesus is taught to be is well known too many who reject Him)

Randy

[Randy Wise]

So what about the approx 2 billion people in the 10/40 window, the majority of whom will likely live and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus, let alone the gospel? Is God unfair or unjust to treat them differently than those who perished in the flood? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see how we can have it both ways...

I haven't found any yet that hasn't heard of who Jesus is. Those people you claim to be ignorant will come before Jesus and a judgment will be made by Him not me and nothing is hidden from Him.

Randy

[Kevin Rector]

Well Kevin if you preach Jesus to say someone currently in another religion and you explain the gospel and they say no thank you I don't need your Jesus or I don't need a middle man what will the outcome be for that person according to Jesus? (I think you will find that who Jesus is taught to be is well known too many who reject Him)

Randy

I once heard a very wise person say that the worst thing a Christian can do is agree to answer a badly worded question. You have asked me to discern a person's "outcome". This is a badly worded question because it presumes that I could possibly have a clue as to the condition of a person's relationships to God, as if I could see into their heart.

Having said that, if I encountered the situation mentioned I do have a few thoughts:

1) Hopefully I faithfully represented who Jesus is... God forgive me if I did not. It may not be that the person rejected Jesus, only Jesus as I described him.
2) I will pray that God will work in their heart and in their life and that God will continue to draw that person unto himself.
3) I will continue to love that person to the best of my ability by the power of God's Holy Spirit.
4) I will trust that God can work in their life (this is somewhat implied by #2 I suppose).
5) I will never decide who is "in" and who is "out", I will just love them and leave the judgment to God.
6) I will hope and pray that they attain to eternal life.

[Randy Wise]

I once heard a very wise person say that the worst thing a Christian can do is agree to answer a badly worded question. You have asked me to discern a person's "outcome". This is a badly worded question because it presumes that I could possibly have a clue as to the condition of a person's relationships to God, as if I could see into their heart.

Having said that, if I encountered the situation mentioned I do have a few thoughts:

1) Hopefully I faithfully represented who Jesus is... God forgive me if I did not. It may not be that the person rejected Jesus, only Jesus as I described him.
2) I will pray that God will work in their heart and in their life and that God will continue to draw that person unto himself.
3) I will continue to love that person to the best of my ability by the power of God's Holy Spirit.
4) I will trust that God can work in their life (this is somewhat implied by #2 I suppose).
5) I will never decide who is "in" and who is "out", I will just love them and leave the judgment to God.
6) I will hope and pray that they attain to eternal life.

You didn't answer the question about the outcome of one who willfully rejects Jesus and you continue to make broad statements in bold that Jesus is the only way to be saved. One of us has the correct understanding. One of us has a good teacher. There seems to be two different groups on this board and we continue to be split on like issues. Many religions preach repentance,but we also preach forgiveness is found only in Jesus.

Their "relationship" with God is established only through the Son, which in the case above in my question the person rejected the Son. If they reject the Son they reject the Father as well. Jesus also stated the outcome of those who do believe in Him. "good news" Both of those conditions are evangelically correct based not on our words but the Lords words. "I tell you the truth..."

Randy

[Billy Cox]

He did not say that it is ok to "reject" Jesus. He said (sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth Billy) that those who are saved are saved because of Jesus even if they never hear the name Jesus or knew about him in an intellectual way.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I was shooting for.

[Kevin Rector]

You didn't answer the question about the outcome of one who willfully rejects Jesus and you continue to make broad statements in bold that Jesus is the only way to be saved.

Here you go, I'm gonna say it so we can move on: people who reject Jesus don't go to heaven.

Of course that was not the actual point of the original post that led us down that rabbit trail. The point of the original post was that a person need not have our particular formulations, creeds, words, and intellectual understanding to know Jesus.

[Dale Cozby]

Here you go, I'm gonna say it so we can move on: people who reject Jesus don't go to heaven

Ok, But you need to define "reject" so we can tell if what you mean is what they mean?:basic05

Let's get on the same page here people, get our terms "correct"

I mean if we can goof up what "Jesus"means then we better be careful with a loaded term like "reject".:fav03

[Hans Deventer]

I mean if we can goof up what "Jesus"means then we better be careful with a loaded term like "reject".:fav03

Dale, we can goof up a lot, because ultimately we only know 2 things: we need to believe in Jesus in order to be saved, and the judgement is God's. Beyond that, it's all speculation and probably none of our business anyway.

[Randy Wise]

Here you go, I'm gonna say it so we can move on: people who reject Jesus don't go to heaven.
Good enough thanks. I think this is very important for people to understand.

Of course that was not the actual point of the original post that led us down that rabbit trail. The point of the original post was that a person need not have our particular formulations, creeds, words, and intellectual understanding to know Jesus.

I understand the message of the new testament and the deep truths of the faith, but I must admit sometimes I have trouble understanding your message.

Randy

[Dale Cozby]

we need to believe in Jesus in order to be saved
I agree, but in this day of post-modern thought we may have some trouble with what it means to "believe"

Seems like everytime we turn around, we are being misunderstood or misunderstanding.

I like the term "Evangelically correct" to describe what we encounter these days. We run the gambit of either being too inclusive or too exclusive by definitions we choose.

and the judgement is God's And I am so thinkful it is! For He alone is worthy to sit in judgement of men's souls.

[Hans Deventer]

I agree, but in this day of post-modern thought we may have some trouble with what it means to "believe"

Trust

[Dale Cozby]

I have preached whole sermons just on what that one word means.

I figure how can I ask someone to "believe" or trust if they aren't really sure what I mean by that.

[Hans Deventer]

I have preached whole sermons just on what that one word means.

I figure how can I ask someone to "believe" or trust if they aren't really sure what I mean by that.

I'm sorry, then I guess we need an English dictionary. When words don't have a clear meaning anymore, we may need to look for others. I thought "trust" was pretty clear. If it is not, then another word must be found. I have not noticed in my country that I needed to choose another word though.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I'm sorry, then I guess we need an English dictionary. When words don't have a clear meaning anymore, we may need to look for others. I thought "trust" was pretty clear.

I love this story: A Sunday School teacher taught a lesson about walking on water and how you have to have faith. She asked, "Who can tell me what faith means?" A young boy replied, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." :basic05

I do think, that like, the word "love," many people seem to think that faith (or believing or trust) is a static emotion that "just happens" to you. They don't seem to get it that even faith is an act of the will (OK, technically a gift from God that he seems to activate according to our will). That is why you hear people say things like, "I can't believe it," or, "I want to believe." Prevenient grace has given us all a capacity to have faith (or trust) if we will choose to.

Wilson

[Dale Cozby]

I often define my terms when speaking with people or ask them to define thier terms so I can know if we are speaking about the same thing.

Often things get lost in "translation" between speaker and hearer in the postmodern world.

[Hans Deventer]

I often define my terms when speaking with people or ask them to define their terms so I can know if we are speaking about the same thing.

Often things get lost in "translation" between speaker and hearer in the postmodern world.

Ok, so what do you find people mean when they talk about trusting someone?

At www.dictionary.com I find for trust as a verb

13. to rely upon or place confidence in someone or something (usually fol. by in or to): to trust in another's honesty; trusting to luck.
14. to have confidence; hope: Things work out if one only trusts.
15. to sell merchandise on credit.
–verb (used with object)
16. to have trust or confidence in; rely or depend on.
17. to believe.
18. to expect confidently; hope (usually fol. by a clause or infinitive as object): trusting the job would soon be finished; trusting to find oil on the land.
19. to commit or consign with trust or confidence.
20. to permit to remain or go somewhere or to do something without fear of consequences: He does not trust his children out of his sight.
21. to invest with a trust; entrust with something.
22. to give credit to (a person) for goods, services, etc., supplied: Will you trust us till payday?
—Verb phrase
23. trust to, to rely on; trust: Never trust to luck!



Just taking the first one would hardly create a lot of difference in opinion, would it? So I am really curious to hear what you find people coming up with. The word seems so obvious to me.

I'm not all to keen on the word believing. It can be very non-personal, very much some mental thing. Like believing the world is not flat but like a ball. Such believing doesn't change a thing for my daily life. But when I am "to rely upon or place confidence in" Jesus, we're talking about a whole different thing. That changes everything, if I really do so.

[Dale Cozby]

I was more concerned with the use of "believe". It is the one that gets abused the most between the two.

Believe:
a: to have a firm religious faith b: to accept as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>
2: to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>
3: to hold an opinion : think <I believe so>
transitive verb
1 a: to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> b: to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>
2: to hold as an opinion : suppose <I believe it will rain soon>

Some people are like this:

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder" James 2:19

[Hans Deventer]

I was more concerned with the use of "believe". It is the one that gets abused the most between the two.

That's why I immediately named"trust" in stead of "believe". See my objections against "believe" below. But still, I understand "trust" isn't good enough. I don't know an other word though. What do you use in stead of "trust" and "believe" to communicate this concept?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

That's why I immediately named"trust" in stead of "believe". See my objections against "believe" below. But still, I understand "trust" isn't good enough. I don't know an other word though. What do you use in stead of "trust" and "believe" to communicate this concept?

Apparently, it will only be possible to get people saved if we preach in Greek. :basic05

Wilson

[Randy Wise]

Would it be beneficial to look to the Apostles instruction in acts and
Pauls writing in Romans 10 to find a answer to what it means to believe and be saved? I mean why would it be different in this day and age?

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

Would it be beneficial to look to the Apostles instruction in acts and
Pauls writing in Romans 10 to find a answer to what it means to believe and be saved? I mean why would it be different in this day and age?


Yes, it would be beneficial and no, it would not look so different. But then again, yes, it would probably be different from a whole lot of ideas about believing and salvation, starting with the "Sinner's prayer".

[Randy Wise]

Yes, it would be beneficial and no, it would not look so different. But then again, yes, it would probably be different from a whole lot of ideas about believing and salvation, starting with the "Sinner's prayer".

Jesus taught His disciples how to pray which isn't in conflict with coming to Christ by outward confession, baptism, and repentance as was taught by the Apostles. If there were ideas that conflicted with that teaching it would be those ideas I would tend to reject and question the need for. Though I havn't seen any ideas presented just general broad statements. I may be misunderstanding again so if I am please let me know.
Thanks
Randy

[Hans Deventer]

Randy, in general, you will find the in the New Testament from Acts on, that people who come to believe in Jesus enter a completely different world, so to speak. It has already been mentioned in this thread that believing was not a process that merely replaced old information, it was a complete new orientation of one's life. That is why formulas like the "sinner's prayer" are found lacking. To believe in Jesus isn't merely being forgiven (though it is certainly that too!), it is much more. That's what I meant.

[Paul Whitaker]

I there a group working on the PCV (Polically correct version) of the Bible?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I there a group working on the PCV (Polically correct version) of the Bible?

I read a parody of this idea some years ago...

It was called the NOV, Non-Offensive Version.

It was actually quite funny.

On a serious note, I have heard tale of a gender neutral version but I've not actually seen it.

Wilson

[BobHunt]

what possibly is a stupid question, referring to your earlier post, if there are some who never weep at an altar or who never ask Jesus into their heart, then how do they come into a relationship with the Lord?

[Billy Cox]

Kneeling at an altar and praying a sinner's prayer is a cultural formula, not a means of having a relationship with Jesus Christ.

The way to have a relationship with the Lord is and has always been a matter of faith. We are in danger when we emphasize conversion/repentance formulas as though one can be saved simply by casting the correct magical incantation.

[Randy Wise]

Kneeling at an altar and praying a sinner's prayer is a cultural formula, not a means of having a relationship with Jesus Christ.

The way to have a relationship with the Lord is and has always been a matter of faith. We are in danger when we emphasize conversion/repentance formulas as though one can be saved simply by casting the correct magical incantation.

To establish a relationship and to have a ongoing relationship are two different terms. To establish a relationship the apostles did instruct their fellow jews when asked, "what should we do?", to repent in the name of Jesus and be baptised and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (a new creation) Paul wrote in romans it is with our heart we believe and it is with our mouth we confess Jesus is Lord that saves us. I see no danger or expiration date for these teachings to come to Christ. There was however no altar used if that was your intent of your message.

Randy

[Dale Cozby]

"Cultural formulas" haha..... Magical incantations...hehe... Emergent Church....hoho....

Repent: 1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

Baptized: to immerse; dunk, quench; dip into; cover with

Confess:1: to tell or make known (as something wrong or damaging to oneself) : admit <he confessed his guilt>
2 a: to acknowledge (sin) to God or to a priest b: to receive the confession of (a penitent)
3: to declare faith in or adherence to : profess
4: to give evidence of
intransitive verb
1 a: to disclose one's faults; specifically : to unburden one's sins or the state of one's conscience to God or to a priest b: to hear a confession
2: admit, own <confess to a crime>

Sin:1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Old School thought: "If it works, you can't fix it" and "The wages of sin is still death"
Emergent School thought: "It works for you, but might not for somebody else" and "Sin is what you make it"

How to be saved("cultural formula"): Repent and be Baptized
"Magical Incantation" = confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - St. Paul to the Romans

Am I wrong to believe that every person, everywhere, down through history, has at some time, used the same cultural formula to be saved? Repentence and Baptism?

Paul further defined this process for those who heard the Gospel message with his "magical incantation."

I know that the emergents hate it when someone quotes the Bible for proof, but that is sadly, all I know how to do when comes to proclaiming God's will.

Bible quotes: Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

"unless you repent, you too will all perish" - Jesus

"saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" - Paul

"The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

[Hans Deventer]

"Cultural formulas" haha..... Magical incantations...hehe... Emergent Church....hoho....

It's good to see you are enjoying yourself so much. I'm not in such a happy mood today, so I can't join you.

[Dale Cozby]

I am sorry to hear that Hans. I hope things get better for you.

[Hans Deventer]

I am sorry to hear that Hans. I hope things get better for you.

I'm OK. I'm praying Brad will be too.

[Billy Cox]

Religion operates within culture. We must keep in mind that cultural expressions of repentance and confession may look very different depending on one's culture.

[Randy Wise]

"Cultural formulas" haha..... Magical incantations...hehe... Emergent Church....hoho....

Repent: 1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

Baptized: to immerse; dunk, quench; dip into; cover with

Confess:1: to tell or make known (as something wrong or damaging to oneself) : admit <he confessed his guilt>
2 a: to acknowledge (sin) to God or to a priest b: to receive the confession of (a penitent)
3: to declare faith in or adherence to : profess
4: to give evidence of
intransitive verb
1 a: to disclose one's faults; specifically : to unburden one's sins or the state of one's conscience to God or to a priest b: to hear a confession
2: admit, own <confess to a crime>

Sin:1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Old School thought: "If it works, you can't fix it" and "The wages of sin is still death"
Emergent School thought: "It works for you, but might not for somebody else" and "Sin is what you make it"

How to be saved("cultural formula"): Repent and be Baptized
"Magical Incantation" = confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - St. Paul to the Romans

Am I wrong to believe that every person, everywhere, down through history, has at some time, used the same cultural formula to be saved? Repentence and Baptism?

Paul further defined this process for those who heard the Gospel message with his "magical incantation."

I know that the emergents hate it when someone quotes the Bible for proof, but that is sadly, all I know how to do when comes to proclaiming God's will.

Bible quotes: Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

"unless you repent, you too will all perish" - Jesus

"saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" - Paul

"The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

I think we should stick with helping the living who do hear the message. Your thoughts?
Randy

[Martijn van Beveren]

"Cultural formulas" haha..... Magical incantations...hehe... Emergent Church....hoho....



So, santa, :cs01 Should I take this serious business, or shal we continue without laughing at these statements... Maybe it's just a term for the development of new ways, but it would not be so neat to just put them down.


Repent: 1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

Baptized: to immerse; dunk, quench; dip into; cover with

Confess:1: to tell or make known (as something wrong or damaging to oneself) : admit <he confessed his guilt>
2 a: to acknowledge (sin) to God or to a priest b: to receive the confession of (a penitent)
3: to declare faith in or adherence to : profess
4: to give evidence of
intransitive verb
1 a: to disclose one's faults; specifically : to unburden one's sins or the state of one's conscience to God or to a priest b: to hear a confession
2: admit, own <confess to a crime>

Sin:1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Old School thought: "If it works, you can't fix it" and "The wages of sin is still death"
Emergent School thought: "It works for you, but might not for somebody else" and "Sin is what you make it"


I don't know what kind of emergent school you've been to, but as far as I know it, sin is still the way to death. Even though I might experience things differently than you.
And well what works for me, might indeed not work for somebody else, but that doesn't mean we throw the essentials overboard. Though it doesn't hurt to put them under critical examination...



How to be saved("cultural formula"): Repent and be Baptized
"Magical Incantation" = confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - St. Paul to the Romans

Am I wrong to believe that every person, everywhere, down through history, has at some time, used the same cultural formula to be saved? Repentence and Baptism?

Paul further defined this process for those who heard the Gospel message with his "magical incantation."

I know that the emergents hate it when someone quotes the Bible for proof, but that is sadly, all I know how to do when comes to proclaiming God's will.


I don't think that quoting the bible is the issue here. It's more the way you use it when you quote. The danger is in our interpretation of the scripture. The way we take out one part of the story and leave it's historical, cultural, storyboard, scene and listeners out. Then applying it into the today situation is just too narrowminded. We'll have to take all of these things into consideration before drawing any conclusion to a sentence.
It's doing more damage proclaiming a certain truth by just swaying with a loose end of story...



Bible quotes: Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

"unless you repent, you too will all perish" - Jesus

"saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" - Paul

"The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

Goto go to work,
I'll be back ;)

MArty

[Randy Wise]

Religion operates within culture. We must keep in mind that cultural expressions of repentance and confession may look very different depending on one's culture.

Who Jesus is taught to be doesn't change. I will always teach you must go to Him for life. Maybe in a strange culture more of who Jesus is and why He came might need to be explained. Prayer in general doesn't have a formula. We just need to point the people to who they need to go to for eternal life. Of course this answer deals with coming to Christ for salvation.

Randy

[David Pettigrew]

Emergent School thought: "It works for you, but might not for somebody else" and "Sin is what you make it"...
...I know that the emergents hate it when someone quotes the Bible for proof, but that is sadly, all I know how to do when comes to proclaiming God's will.


Well, my fellow Dallas District brother:basic03 , I consider myself a freshman in the emergent school. The church I pastor is not emergent, and in many ways I'm still "old school". Many emergent ideas take me further than I am comfortable going just yet. But here's my thoughts on this broad paintbrush we've been painted with here.

The old school Nazarene Wesleyan definition of sin is one of the narrowest in the theological spectrum. "A willful transgression of a known law of God." It has to be willful, and it has to be known. The "orthodox" view of sin in Christianity, and the one generally accepted in the post-modern movement, I would speculate, involves missing the mark. It's anything that falls short of God's glory. So, an emergent Christian would actually call more things "sinful" than a good old Nazarene evangelist. However, if I go to China as a missionay, walk up to the first "native" I see, and say, in the king's english, "you, my friend, are a sinner," they will stare at me blankly. We don't speak the same language, so I would be wasting my breath. It's the same reason that the average COTN uses the NIV instead of the KJV today. Language changes as culture changes.

This is all the emergents in the Church of the Nazarene are saying. We can no longer assume that people in our communities understand what "repent", "sin", "salvation", or "baptism" even mean. Our words and actions as western Christians are as alien to them as trying to follow a Russian Orthodox worship service would be to us. So we must go where they are and speak their language if we are to share the gospel. Some people call it missions.

I'm not afraid to call a sin a sin for fear it is offensive. The cross is always offensive, and will be in any culture. I just want people to listen to our message.

Of course, it's hard to have hope that the world will hear when my own brothers and sisters in the church whose bosom has given me succor all these thirty five years (nice word picture, eh?) won't even listen to what we're saying.

And I don't hate quoting the Bible. I tend to quote from at least four portions of it every Sunday. I just hate the way many evangelicals use it - as a weapon to prove themselves right and trump all arguments and show people how they don't measure up (Jesus called the pharisees hypocrits when they did this), rather than as a never-ending, living, breathing, Story that transforms us from self-centered, self-destructive creatures of hell to serving, loving children of God.

Love and peace to you my brother,
dp

[Roland Hearn]

Am I wrong to believe that every person, everywhere, down through history, has at some time, used the same cultural formula to be saved? Repentence and Baptism?


It would be wrong to the extent that you defined what those looked like in terms of the cultural experience of grace that is currently is considered the norm. People in the Salvation Army even today, for example, argue, with some weight, that baptism refers to spirit baptism not water baptism. Repentence can take on many different cultural applications and adaptations.
I think that what Billy is saying is that faith and not activities is the key. Faith will always include an element of repentence and baptism but that may not look the same from one culture to the next.
We need to be real careful when we are talking condemingly that we actually understand all that is being said and all that is meant by what is being said. Many times we filter things through our own experience and fears and come up with something that is not addressing issues as other people are looking at them.

[Randy Wise]

Emergent School thought: "It works for you, but might not for somebody else" and "Sin is what you make it"...
...I know that the emergents hate it when someone quotes the Bible for proof, but that is sadly, all I know how to do when comes to proclaiming God's will.


Well, my fellow Dallas District brother:basic03 , I consider myself a freshman in the emergent school. The church I pastor is not emergent, and in many ways I'm still "old school". Many emergent ideas take me further than I am comfortable going just yet. But here's my thoughts on this broad paintbrush we've been painted with here.

The old school Nazarene Wesleyan definition of sin is one of the narrowest in the theological spectrum. "A willful transgression of a known law of God." It has to be willful, and it has to be known. The "orthodox" view of sin in Christianity, and the one generally accepted in the post-modern movement, I would speculate, involves missing the mark. It's anything that falls short of God's glory. So, an emergent Christian would actually call more things "sinful" than a good old Nazarene evangelist. However, if I go to China as a missionay, walk up to the first "native" I see, and say, in the king's english, "you, my friend, are a sinner," they will stare at me blankly. We don't speak the same language, so I would be wasting my breath. It's the same reason that the average COTN uses the NIV instead of the KJV today. Language changes as culture changes.

This is all the emergents in the Church of the Nazarene are saying. We can no longer assume that people in our communities understand what "repent", "sin", "salvation", or "baptism" even mean. Our words and actions as western Christians are as alien to them as trying to follow a Russian Orthodox worship service would be to us. So we must go where they are and speak their language if we are to share the gospel. Some people call it missions.

I'm not afraid to call a sin a sin for fear it is offensive. The cross is always offensive, and will be in any culture. I just want people to listen to our message.

Of course, it's hard to have hope that the world will hear when my own brothers and sisters in the church whose bosom has given me succor all these thirty five years (nice word picture, eh?) won't even listen to what we're saying.

And I don't hate quoting the Bible. I tend to quote from at least four portions of it every Sunday. I just hate the way many evangelicals use it - as a weapon to prove themselves right and trump all arguments and show people how they don't measure up (Jesus called the pharisees hypocrits when they did this), rather than as a never-ending, living, breathing, Story that transforms us from self-centered, self-destructive creatures of hell to serving, loving children of God.

Love and peace to you my brother,
dp

1:Jesus called hypocrites those people in authority who strained out a gnat but swallowed a camel.
2:We had a person in our office from China and He had heard of Jesus. He was a engineer so I brought up a drawing of the eye on the internet and showed the drawing to Him. I asked Him to look at the design of the eye and tell me if such a thing could come about all by itself. After a few moments He said no it was too complex. I built from there about God. I wonder what the answer would be on this board?
3:Jesus hasn't changed and neither has HIS message not ours.
4:People understand the concept of sin and repentance. They may not believe they are guilty or Jesus is who He is taught to be.
5:The gospel you read in your new testament was preached to a world with many false Gods with many different customs. We preach to a world with a church on every corner that preaches Christ Jesus. Why would people in this day and age not understand the same message?

Randy

[David Pettigrew]

1:Jesus called hypocrites those people in authority who strained out a gnat but swallowed a camel.
2:We had a person in our office from China and He had heard of Jesus. He was a engineer so I brought up a drawing of the eye on the internet and showed the drawing to Him. I asked Him to look at the design of the eye and tell me if such a thing could come about all by itself. After a few moments He said no it was too complex. I built from there about God. I wonder what the answer would be on this board?
3:Jesus hasn't changed and neither has HIS message not ours.
4:People understand the concept of sin and repentance. They may not believe they are guilty or Jesus is who He is taught to be.
5:The gospel you read in your new testament was preached to a world with many false Gods with many different customs. We preach to a world with a church on every corner that preaches Christ Jesus. Why would people in this day and age not understand the same message?

Randy

Randy, thank you for proving my point. You and I are speaking two different languages. Your five points had no more to do with what I was talking about in my post than the price of tea in China.

Let me ask you this: is the worship service at your church in Latin? If the answer is "no, they speak english", (or spanish, or korean, or whatever), then that means that somewhere along the way in the last 1600 years, they adapted to the culture around them in order to make THE UNCHANGING MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL understandable to people in their neck of the woods.

You've already decided the answer, so no use confusing you with the question.

God bless you, my brother

[Randy Wise]

Randy, thank you for proving my point. You and I are speaking two different languages. Your five points had no more to do with what I was talking about in my post than the price of tea in China.

Let me ask you this: is the worship service at your church in Latin? If the answer is "no, they speak english", (or spanish, or korean, or whatever), then that means that somewhere along the way in the last 1600 years, they adapted to the culture around them in order to make THE UNCHANGING MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL understandable to people in their neck of the woods.

You've already decided the answer, so no use confusing you with the question.

God bless you, my brother

Ok, maybe I pushed too hard in regard to your last post.

Sorry,
Randy

[David Pettigrew]

np:basic01

dp

[Billy Cox]

Let me ask you this: is the worship service at your church in Latin? If the answer is "no, they speak english", (or spanish, or korean, or whatever), then that means that somewhere along the way in the last 1600 years, they adapted to the culture around them in order to make THE UNCHANGING MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL understandable to people in their neck of the woods.


You just haven't experienced the Bible unless you have read it in the original Klingon.

[Kevin Rector]

Emergent School thought: "It works for you, but might not for somebody else" and "Sin is what you make it"


As a self-proclaimed emergent Nazarene I have to say that what you say we say is not what we actually say.


Am I wrong to believe that every person, everywhere, down through history, has at some time, used the same cultural formula to be saved? Repentence and Baptism?


You are wrong is in thinking that repentance and baptism are cultural formulas. Those are things that all people do on their journey to salvation in Jesus Christ. Cultural formulas are things like singing 15 verses of Just As I Am while an Evangelist begs you to come to an altar.


I know that the emergents hate it when someone quotes the Bible for proof, but that is sadly, all I know how to do when comes to proclaiming God's will.


Hmmm, I'm rather fond of the bible actually and so is every other emergent Christian I know.

Peace to you.

[David Pettigrew]

You just haven't experienced the Bible unless you have read it in the original Klingon.

Be careful what you ask for...

http://www.kli.org/wiki/index.php?Klingon%20Bible%20Translation%20Project


This version would be effective in reaching the culture of Bible quizzers.:basic03

[Dale Cozby]

HaHa... I sent this link to some of my trek friends and they loved it. :basic05

[Billy Cox]

Be careful what you ask for...

http://www.kli.org/wiki/index.php?Klingon%20Bible%20Translation%20Project


This version would be effective in reaching the culture of Bible quizzers.:basic03

Someone I used to work with had downloaded a program that would state the time in Klingon (of course) every five minutes. Interestingly, he was also sympathetic to the theory that the moon landing in 1969 was actually filmed in a studio.

I meet all kinds of people in the field of software development.

[John Kennedy]

"....the theory that the moon landing in 1969 was actually filmed in a studio."

You tellin' me there are people that haven't found out about the truth of that yet?

In somewhat the same vein, or maybe not:

I can remember when missionaries used to come and show us slides of people in Africa. Did anyone else ever wonder whether missionaries showed people in Africa slides of people in America?

[David Pettigrew]

I can remember when missionaries used to come and show us slides of people in Africa. Did anyone else ever wonder whether missionaries showed people in Africa slides of people in America?

Ah, yes, the missionary slides. What memories! This would be the only service where all the kids would rush to sit on the front row.

My theory has always been that there were actually only one set of missionary slides, issued by KC to all furloughed missionary for deputation services. No matter who the missionary was, the slides always included the following:
a) "Here's the view from our plane as we landed at the airstrip"
b) "Here's my wife on a tractor"
c) "Here's a close up of the spider we found in the kitchen"
d) "Here's a close up of a smiling medical clinic patient showing off the runny sore on his leg"
e) "Here's my wife in a native head dress"
f) "Here are the local Bible college students in their American clothes that don't fit. Notice how all the tie knots are as big as their heads"
g) "Here's the witch doctor. You can see we still have a lot of work to do"
h) "Here we are with the cheif and his twelve wives eating the local delicacy, monkey and vulture stew"

I can remember my aunt getting upset one time because the women in the pictures from one African country didn't adopt American dress and hair styles upon conversion. Even as a seven year old, I knew that was crazy.

[Billy Cox]

Ah, yes, the missionary slides. What memories! This would be the only service where all the kids would rush to sit on the front row.

My theory has always been that there were actually only one set of missionary slides, issued by KC to all furloughed missionary for deputation services. No matter who the missionary was, the slides always included the following:
a) "Here's the view from our plane as we landed at the airstrip"
b) "Here's my wife on a tractor"
c) "Here's a close up of the spider we found in the kitchen"
d) "Here's a close up of a smiling medical clinic patient showing off the runny sore on his leg"
e) "Here's my wife in a native head dress"
f) "Here are the local Bible college students in their American clothes that don't fit. Notice how all the tie knots are as big as their heads"
g) "Here's the witch doctor. You can see we still have a lot of work to do"
h) "Here we are with the cheif and his twelve wives eating the local delicacy, monkey and vulture stew"

I can remember my aunt getting upset one time because the women in the pictures from one African country didn't adopt American dress and hair styles upon conversion. Even as a seven year old, I knew that was crazy.


I think that missionary speakers should have just shown the slides, and cut out all the droning on about the three ways that we support missions - the most important of which is obviously MONEY.

[Hans Deventer]

I think that missionary speakers should have just shown the slides, and cut out all the droning on about the three ways that we support missions - the most important of which is obviously MONEY.

Wow! That would have saved us so many prayers, since that was obviously a waste of time. As long as we send money, our souls are save. Didn't that idea ignite the Reformation, BTW?

[Billy Cox]

Wow! That would have saved us so much prayer time, since that was obviously a waste of time. As long as we send money, our souls are save. Didn't that idea ignite the Reformation?

If the Roman Catholic clergy had not become an institution unto themselves, drunk with power, there would have been no Reformation. The whole indulgences thing was just the spark that set aflame centuries worth of accumulated underbrush.

[Hans Deventer]

If the Roman Catholic clergy had not become an institution unto themselves, drunk with power, there would have been no Reformation. The whole indulgences thing was just the spark that set aflame centuries worth of accumulated underbrush.

That was hardly the main point of my post.

[Barbara Moulton]

It would be wrong to the extent that you defined what those looked like in terms of the cultural experience of grace that is currently is considered the norm. People in the Salvation Army even today, for example, argue, with some weight, that baptism refers to spirit baptism not water baptism. Repentence can take on many different cultural applications and adaptations.

Thanks for posting this. As a former Salvationist, I lived 35 years of the Christian life without benefit of baptism.

I still have many friends within the ranks who are not baptized.

[Hans Deventer]

Thanks for posting this. As a former Salvationist, I lived 35 years of the Christian life without benefit of baptism.

Barbara, what would you say that benefit is, from your experience?

[Barbara Moulton]

what possibly is a stupid question, referring to your earlier post, if there are some who never weep at an altar or who never ask Jesus into their heart, then how do they come into a relationship with the Lord?

The reality is that I know many Christians who have never wept at an altar nor "asked Jesus into their heart". You sure don't find that latter phrase in the Bible anywhere.

I have one dear friend who serves as one of my volunteer chaplain. The spirit of Christ is evident in her life and in her walk. When you talk to her...you experience the love she has for God and the faith she has in Christ. She has a gift for spiritual care and she brings God's presence into the hospital. I have seen her give extra hours to simply stay with a dying patient and respond to calls at 2:00 in the morning for multi vehicle accidents. She has encouraged me in my work and in my personal life with her prayers.

Her Christian experience is one that began with baptism, continued as a child in her church...up through her confirmation experience. She once said to me, "I don't understand when people ask me if I have accepted Jesus. I never rejected Him."

For many Christians, that is their testimony. They have simply moved through their lives with a faith that gradually enveloped more and more of the Christian message that they were taught.

One thing I have noticed about Christians from these traditions is that they are very peaceful to be around. They don't seem to have as much angst as some evangelicals who feel they need to define the "steps" by which someone comes to a knowledge of Jesus Christ. They simply believe in Christ.

[Barbara Moulton]

Barbara, what would you say that benefit is, from your experience?

For me, the only real benefit I experienced from baptism, was a sense of unity with the majority of the Christian world. That was kind of nice.

I didn't feel that I had missed the testimony of faith that baptism implies. I had spent my entire life adult life, publically testifying to my belief in Jesus Christ, everytime I put my uniform.

Edited to add: Maybe being raised in a non-sacramental church has made me less willing to judge what makes someone a "true Christian". I know that I was a true Christian, long before I was baptized.

[Dale Cozby]

To be a Christian you must:
1.Be Baptized as a infant
2. Dedicated as an infant by your parents
3. Say the "sinners prayer" at least once and mark the date down.
4. Be confirmed
5. Be re-baptized after the age of reason( say 12 to 15)
6. Make a public testimony of your faith by coming to an altar of prayer during a worship service or revival/camp meeting
7. Speak in tongues at least once preferably when you are
Sanctified and/or baptized with the Holy Ghost
8. Then you must lead at least one other person to the Lord and give a cup of water to a thirsty person in Jesus name of course.
9. Confess your sins to another Christian, a priest/minister would be better
10. Take communion when it is offered
11. attend church regularly there after
12. When you die make sure your body isn't cremated as you will be needing it later during the rapture or resurrection or second coming of Jesus so you will have something to put your white robe on.

Hows that for some steps?:eek:

Funny in a sad sort of way isn't it?

[Martijn van Beveren]

To be a Christian you must:
1.Be Baptized as a infant
2. Dedicated as an infant by your parents
3. Say the "sinners prayer" at least once and mark the date down.
4. Be confirmed
5. Be re-baptized after the age of reason( say 12 to 15)
6. Make a public testimony of your faith by coming to an altar of prayer during a worship service or revival/camp meeting
7. Speak in tongues at least once preferably when you are
Sanctified and/or baptized with the Holy Ghost
8. Then you must lead at least one other person to the Lord and give a cup of water to a thirsty person in Jesus name of course.
9. Confess your sins to another Christian, a priest/minister would be better
10. Take communion when it is offered
11. attend church regularly there after
12. When you die make sure your body isn't cremated as you will be needing it later during the rapture or resurrection or second coming of Jesus so you will have something to put your white robe on.

Hows that for some steps?:eek:

Funny in a sad sort of way isn't it?

Well Dave,

It makes me more sad :basic04 to read it and realize that there are places where a lot of these regulations are the norm. I hope that more and more people search out their hearts and go back to just essentials as Grace, mercy, love, hope, salvation. Not being blinded by all the barriers that are invented... Not exclusivism, but embracing.

It definitely saddens me to see so many people go and leave the church and God because they couldn't keep up with the "rules":fun12 . They are disappointed in the church and God. I pray that the love of God may always be the overcoming power no matter what people(we) make of it.
I long to be as loving as I can to my fellow person, my neighbor, friend, stranger. That's what counts most! Even when I mess up big time...
Then maybe we deal with all the other stuff. Even then in a loving relationship that focusses on brotherly/sisterly love. Not condemning, violating, intruding....

In Christ: my salvation, hope, guide...
:rolleyes: Marty

[Martijn van Beveren]

Who Jesus is taught to be doesn't change. I will always teach you must go to Him for life. Maybe in a strange culture more of who Jesus is and why He came might need to be explained. Prayer in general doesn't have a formula. We just need to point the people to who they need to go to for eternal life. Of course this answer deals with coming to Christ for salvation.

Randy

Hi Randy,

I must admit that I agree with most what you say here. Yes we should look at Jesus and yes we should definitely look at cultural circumstances. I'm just tr