NazNet Community Forum - Theology http://www.naznet.com/community/ Theology oriented discussions en Thu, 09 Sep 2010 00:17:36 GMT vBulletin 60 http://www.naznet.com/community/images/misc/rss.png NazNet Community Forum - Theology http://www.naznet.com/community/ total good news, or the grandma on a mission http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1967-total-good-news-or-the-grandma-on-a-mission&goto=newpost Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:35:50 GMT It's been a reflective afternoon for me.

The aunt who's changed life and cleansed heart were part of my coming to Jesus was killed in a wreck last week at the age of 90. Her funeral is today. It is simply too many hundreds of miles away for me to leave responsibilities here and go.

So I sat for a while at my keyboard, playing old distinctively American Holiness movement tunes without the backup, just a lush organ sound.

And I realized that in my town at least (criticizing myself here most of all) we holiness Christians seem to have lost our faith that God can and most certainly will cleanse the yielded heart.

And I have to yield my own again......repenting of withholding that good news from folks I fear will reject it. I need to give out the total good news, not fire insurance.

And determining this grandma needs to get busy spreading that news as fast and as far as I can.

Maybe hearts will be cleansed. Maybe they won't.

But I won't answer for neglecting the truth when I stand before Jesus.

So pray for me as I need to openly own my own faults and seek that cleansing in front of those I seek to win.

And pray I live purely and stand for purity lovingly in a very sin soaked community. ]]> Theology Linda Schroller http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1967-total-good-news-or-the-grandma-on-a-mission The evolution debate: and on it goes http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1941-The-evolution-debate-and-on-it-goes&goto=newpost Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:25:24 GMT An interesting exchange between Al Mohler, the self proclaimed fundamentalist (which he often refers to as "evangelical") president of Southern Seminary (Southern Baptist), and Karl Giberson, biology professor at ENC who has authored several books on science, evolution, and Christianity. It is also interesting that some "Nazarenes" have endorsed Al Mohler's Southern Baptist fundamentalism.

Albert Mohler: "Why Does the Universe Look So Old?"

Karl Giberson: "How Darwin Sustains My Baptist Search for Truth"

Albert Mohler: "On Darwin and Darwinism: A Letter to Professor Giberson"

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B. ]]> Theology Dennis Bratcher http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1941-The-evolution-debate-and-on-it-goes why we were vanishing visitors http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1902-why-we-were-vanishing-visitors&goto=newpost Thu, 02 Sep 2010 20:36:42 GMT I'm not sure this belongs in theology, but since there is a preaching/teaching/singing content focus I am putting it here.

And I will say right up front that what I am going to share is JUST, AND ONLY JUST, personal opinion and experience. I fully recognize other parts of the body of Christ have differing needs, callings, and skill sets. I just want to type that once and not preface every sentence with "it seemed to us" or "imho".

I've shared how much we love our local Naz church and how the rock concert setting in worship didn't work for our particular family.

We've done lots of visiting, and lots of pondering, and last Sunday almost made a decision to be part of a local independent church.

We know lots of the folks--good, friendly people. How they do church (hymn sandwich) works for us, as would liturgical. However, while I will share in a minute what appealed to us, suffice it to say going over their statement of faith I realized I couldn't in good faith join with a hyperfundamentalist group.

But for what it is worth, I will share what we have learned and what we plan to do.

When it comes to format of the service, we have learned that block format doesn't work for us. Maybe we are attention deficit, I don't know, but standing and singing for 20-40 minutes (depending on the church) and then praying for 15-20 minutes straight, and then a 40-90 minute sermon (again, depending on where) just doesn't work for us.

That eliminated most of the evangelical churches for us.

We are not into Word Faith theology, which is very popular around here and eliminated a bunch of churches.

That left a few doing either liturgical or hymn sandwich with either contemporary music, blended, or hymns and gospel songs.

At most we still felt something was missing. All were warm and friendly and just packed with fellowship.

After our experience last Sunday we've tried to analyze why we were so attracted to that church. What do they have the other churches in town don't seem to have?

And what we came up with is this: they have a conversion focus.

Whether it is initial conversion (salvation) or the second crisis of faith (sanctification), our town is a pauper when it comes to churches with a conversion focus.

I fully believe sometimes the church does need to focus the service on learning about Christ, or on the application of scripture to our lives, or joyfully celebrating Jesus.

But that needs to be building upon the bedrock foundation of conversion.

Instead we seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker the idea that it is somehow just not nice to talk about law and gospel, since an unbeliever might hear us and be offended. I'm not advocating fire and brimstone preaching. You can communicate the offensive message of the cross without being offensive.

I've felt so beaten down in this town: six years of working with people and averaging midwifing at one new birth about once a year is pretty abysmal. And I don't even want to talk about lack of success seeing believers go on in holiness.

Why should they? If they do attend church, most here at least appear to carefully craft a service so that an unbeliever living in rank sin can come, join in and feel right at home just having an emotional experience.

So--we are going to select carefully. The plan is to return to the Naz SS in two weeks. It is awesome. And while I would sure rather hear the Naz preacher, the rock concert before the sermon means we will leave after SS and go over to the Meth. church.

It will have liturgy-lite format and the songs are pretty conversion focused even if the preaching isn't.

Not a perfect plan, but best we can do for now.

Our experience has taught me something I never thought of before.

If visitors come a few times and then disappear, it might be they came looking for something the world doesn't offer and didn't find it.

I can find lots of fellowship in the world. I can find lots of emotional experience in the world. I can find lots of therapy and truly good advice in the world.

But the world can never address the really crucial issues.

And it can't give me Jesus.

The church should. ]]> Theology Linda Schroller http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1902-why-we-were-vanishing-visitors Rules, freedom, or something in between? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1881-Rules-freedom-or-something-in-between&goto=newpost Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:43:13 GMT There is a thread in Naznet about homosexual Nazarenes and I am
reading NT Wright's "After You Believe" and I got to thinking.

The idea of Wright's book, up to page 30 something, is that there must
be something to the Christian life that is somewhere between rule
keeping and doing what makes one happy or feels good.

Regarding rules. Rules are great as long as the things those rules
are based on do not change. If something changes in culture, the rules
for the 'old' way of doing things are less effective, or even
ineffective, to deal with the 'new' way of doing things. If this is
true, and that is a big if, maybe that would explain why some folks
dream, or demand, that things go back to the way they used to be.

Freedom isn't much help either. Unlimited freedom, indulging in every want and desire, doesn't produce much that is helpful either. Freedom is found in restriction and discipline such as in losing weight or stopping harmful drinking. Unlimited freedom isn't really freedom (I think).

Our faith is not culturally dependent, is it? Shouldn't the faith be
able to 'work' in any culture? I understand the need for cultural
savvy and all, but really, the freedom of Christ isn't dependent upon
rules, laws, political parties, or economic systems, is it? ]]> Theology David Gerber http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1881-Rules-freedom-or-something-in-between Keith Drury insists oft-misused Wesley quote be put back into context. http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1876-Keith-Drury-insists-oft-misused-Wesley-quote-be-put-back-into-context.&goto=newpost Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:39:47 GMT http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/no...20Holiness.htm

Wesley said it. "There is no holiness but social holiness." Those who use it to sanction social action do so with good intentions and Wesley would surely be proud of most of their good works. I don't hear Dr. Drury condemning those who use it this way, but merely pointing out their well-intended error. ]]> Theology Scott Sherwood http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1876-Keith-Drury-insists-oft-misused-Wesley-quote-be-put-back-into-context. How to talk about !@#$%? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1874-How-to-talk-about-!&goto=newpost Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:15:40 GMT Made you look :ihe_cowboy:

How to talk about sin?

I recently came across these descriptors of sin. Don't know the origin, but find them very helpful.

1. Something is wrong with the world, and maybe I'm part of it.
2. I'm in pain, and I inflict pain too.
3. I did it my way, and now I feel empty.
4. I have power, and now it has me.

Many lament to inability of our culture to blush. The traditional lists of convicting behaviors no longer convict. Some believe our task is to convince people of their sin in an effort to prepare them for good news. But I wonder if we simply are starting with the wrong lists. Perhaps we are beginning the conversation in the wrong place.

Thoughts? ]]> Theology Brian Postlewait http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1874-How-to-talk-about-! Collective Salvation http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1859-Collective-Salvation&goto=newpost Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:25:59 GMT Does anyone Know anything about collective salvation that our presindent is talking about when he speaking to college students. Do you think that he... Does anyone Know anything about collective salvation that our presindent is talking about when he speaking to college students. Do you think that he made mean if one who is born in a Chistian home or in Christian culture that you are saved?
Thanks
Larry ]]> Theology Larry Parsons http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1859-Collective-Salvation Homosexual Nazarenes http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1843-Homosexual-Nazarenes&goto=newpost Sat, 28 Aug 2010 03:18:14 GMT I had a pastor friend recently ask my advice about a situation in his church. I thought I'd share it with Naznet to get your opinions. I admit, I'm not sure what this pastor should do.

What should a pastor do when he or she realizes that members of her or his church are in a committed lesbian relationship? Is this reason for disciplinary action? Should their membership be revoked? Should the pastor have a "don't ask, don't tell" approach. Should the pastor only intervene if the pastor is confident homosexual behavior is involved? (The Manual does not denounce homosexual orientation, as far as I can tell.)

I read sections of the Manual today, and it's not clear to me what should be done. In fact, it's not clear to me what should be done when members violate other code of conduct standards in that section of the Manual. Do we expel women who get abortions? Do we expel or discipline others who are out of step with other items mentioned in the code?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. I may pass them on to my friend...
Tom ]]> Theology Thomas Oord http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1843-Homosexual-Nazarenes Born Again Mormons? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1842-Born-Again-Mormons&goto=newpost Sat, 28 Aug 2010 01:57:11 GMT I happened on this website of a ministry, apparently, based on a book "I was a born again Mormon." Their statement of faith is an interesting mix in which evangelical Christianity is being as friendly as possible with LDS.

I don't know anything else about this group and I don't know a whole lot about that religion but I thought it might be interesting to some here: http://www.bornagainmormon.com/about-faith.htm ]]> Theology http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1842-Born-Again-Mormons Do you utilize classic or formal prayers? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1840-Do-you-utilize-classic-or-formal-prayers&goto=newpost Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:34:00 GMT Although spontaneous, original prayer has always been the norm for me, I have grown fond over the years for classic prayers or formalized prayers... Although spontaneous, original prayer has always been the norm for me, I have grown fond over the years for classic prayers or formalized prayers such as those found in prayer books, matins or vespers. As a matter of fact, during my desert times, I have willed myself to pray such prayers, when my own thoughts and words either were dry as dust or simply would not come. How many of you include classic prayers in your dialogue with God? If so, what are some of your favorites?

Secondly, in your opinion and understanding of scripture, what theological precedence might support daily use of these meditations? ]]> Theology Tami Kuenning http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1840-Do-you-utilize-classic-or-formal-prayers Looking for a quote from Hybels http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1833-Looking-for-a-quote-from-Hybels&goto=newpost Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:59:18 GMT I seem to recall reading once that Bill Hybels stated that they had not done a good job in producing mature Christians. But, I can't find anything on the internet stating this. Is my memory correct? Can someone find this article or quote for me? ]]> Theology Susan Unger http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1833-Looking-for-a-quote-from-Hybels Moralistic Therapeutic Deism http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1832-Moralistic-Therapeutic-Deism&goto=newpost Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:47:24 GMT Any thoughts on this?

From a CNN article:
Dean says more American teenagers are embracing what she calls "moralistic therapeutic deism." Translation: It's a watered-down faith that portrays God as a "divine therapist" whose chief goal is to boost people's self-esteem.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/08/27...ex.html?hpt=T2

Wilson ]]> Theology Wilson Deaton http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1832-Moralistic-Therapeutic-Deism <![CDATA[Brian McLaren & Particpatory Eschatology]]> http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1825-Brian-McLaren-amp-Particpatory-Eschatology&goto=newpost Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:23:09 GMT In his book "New Kind of Christianity" It seem that McLaren think that we humans should be participating with God to bring about better future.I think the Post-Millennist would go along with this joint venture is it was between the Christians and God. But isn't true if we are going to have better future it will mostly be left up to church to get the job done. When Jesus Christ said it is finished, now, the most natural interpretation would be that he had accomplish His mission.He also prayed to the Father" I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do" After the cross Jesus said to His disciples, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. There fore go and make disciples of the nation. What this sound like to me Christ has finish his work and the rest of it up to his church. what do you think of this idea?

Thanks

Larry P. ]]> Theology Larry Parsons http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1825-Brian-McLaren-amp-Particpatory-Eschatology Florida Megachurch Ends Age-Segregated Worship http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1824-Florida-Megachurch-Ends-Age-Segregated-Worship&goto=newpost Thu, 26 Aug 2010 23:42:00 GMT Seems that although this is a current event and is general in nature yet it really is a Theological topic; and has been discussed here. Florida... Seems that although this is a current event and is general in nature yet it really is a Theological topic; and has been discussed here.

Florida Megachurch Ends Age-Segregated Worship

Does separating into Traditional and Contemporaryreally classify as age-segregated worship? (In Fort Lauderdale FL it probably does! :o)
The megachurch pastor also said he doesn't view separate worship services by style or age as any different from racial segregation, except that it's more subtle.

"Generational appeal in worship is an unintentional admission that the Gospel is powerless to join together what man has separated," he explained to thousands of worshippers at Coral Ridge.

"Since the Gospel is the good news that God reconciles us not only to Himself but also to one another, the church should be breaking down barriers of separation and not erecting them," he added. "[B]uilding the church on stylistic preferences or age appeal is just as contrary to the reconciling effect of the Gospel as building it on class race or gender distinctions."
Blessings
George ]]> Theology George Wallace http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1824-Florida-Megachurch-Ends-Age-Segregated-Worship Preaching the hard bits http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1820-Preaching-the-hard-bits&goto=newpost Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:51:00 GMT I've been toying with the idea of preaching the hardest five passages of scripture. I preached Psalms 137 at my last church (verse 9 is a doozy). What do you think are the hardest texts to get your brain around? I'm not looking for the hardest to live out (the Sermon on the mount has plenty of that). I'm talking about texts that sound offensive, atrocious, or downright wrong to our modern ears. ]]> Theology Kevin Rector http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1820-Preaching-the-hard-bits