NazNet Community Forum - General Theology http://www.naznet.com/community/ Theology oriented discussions en Sat, 18 May 2013 11:23:45 GMT vBulletin 60 http://www.naznet.com/community/images/misc/rss.png NazNet Community Forum - General Theology http://www.naznet.com/community/ Paedobaptisms...play-dough baptisms... same thing. http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12160-Paedobaptisms...play-dough-baptisms...-same-thing.?goto=newpost Fri, 17 May 2013 18:23:37 GMT This isn't the first time I've found myself in this position of arguing for something when I'm not a hard-core proponent of it. But this is the first time I'm fighting for something which I slightly disagree with, in practice anyway. I've defended Calvinism in the past (both four and five point), but this was different.


I'm currently in a debate (which I hoped to be more on a mature level than it turned out to be) over whether infant baptism was practiced in the Early Church (1st-3rd centuries) and whether there is Biblical basis for the practice. I don't reject infant baptism, and I'll support anyone who wants to do it. However, I don't baptize my children and I don't know if my opinion will change.


How often, if ever, have you been in the position where you were called on to defend a position which you consider viable but don't hold to yourself? ]]> General Theology Benjamin Hobbs http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12160-Paedobaptisms...play-dough-baptisms...-same-thing. Talking about Atonement http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12078-Talking-about-Atonement?goto=newpost Wed, 08 May 2013 11:49:47 GMT Since there is currently a GA resolution attempting to address the issue, let's have some good theological conversation regarding the Atonement.

While a superficial treatment, this may be a good place to start:

http://m.ipost.christianpost.com/new...pulpit--10677/

While I struggle with any of the Satisfaction theories of the Atonement (going so far as to re-write or avoid hymns and worship songs that explicitly proclaim them), it is quite difficult to get folks raised with them to think about alternative understandings. They have no great difficulty dealing with the mystery of "God of the OT" vs. "God who is like Jesus," but even beginning to think about the idea that "God doesn't need blood to save," as I have often said from the pulpit, is a bridge too far. ]]> General Theology Mike Schutz http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12078-Talking-about-Atonement <![CDATA[Yet another "chicken or egg" variant: Religion or Morals?]]> http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12070-Yet-another-quot-chicken-or-egg-quot-variant-Religion-or-Morals?goto=newpost Tue, 07 May 2013 21:10:09 GMT I don't plan to buy the book but I thought this was interesting...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/07/health...html?hpt=hp_t5

For the sake of discussion, if his research observation/data is correct, I say the phenomonon is one aspect of what we call "prevenient grace" (as opposed to indicating that morals don't come from God/religion).

What say you?

Wilson ]]> General Theology Wilson Deaton http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12070-Yet-another-quot-chicken-or-egg-quot-variant-Religion-or-Morals <![CDATA[Tom Oord's article on sanctification]]> http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12049-Tom-Oord-s-article-on-sanctification?goto=newpost Mon, 06 May 2013 14:37:40 GMT Opinions on this? ... Opinions on this?

http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/...%2520Paper.pdf



I agree with his views expressed in this article. If sanctification was defined by the church the way he would like to see it defined, I could accept it that way. ]]> General Theology Wil Wrenn http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12049-Tom-Oord-s-article-on-sanctification talking today with a missionary to central american sex trade workers http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12040-talking-today-with-a-missionary-to-central-american-sex-trade-workers?goto=newpost Sun, 05 May 2013 20:43:40 GMT One of the older ladies in the church where my husband is a member is a missionary to sex trade workers in central America. We were standing in... One of the older ladies in the church where my husband is a member is a missionary to sex trade workers in central America.

We were standing in the church kitchen cleaning up after fellowship and discussing her ministry. She was sharing how the workers are so deeply ashamed of what they do to keep themselves and their children alive. She shared how they come to open air church, afraid to enter a church building. They weep openly and hesitate to come to communion, feeling lower than dirt for what they have to do to survive.

She shared also how some decide they would rather starve than ever do that again.

And the worst culture shock for her is coming back to the USA to a college town where the same acts happen voluntarily on a regular basis, just for recreation or because it feels good or because everyone is doing it. No repentance, just constant rationalization of why what they are doing is just a-ok, fine and dandy.

We covanted together to pray for and do what we can to minister to these people caught in this horrific way of life.

And to also pray for those without the simple conscience to know what they do is wrong here in our town.

Truly, I do believe God will look kindly on those heartbroken sex workers when they stand before Him with the attitude of "God be merciful to me a sinner."

And probably quite harshly on those that openly and defiantly reject His statements of what is right and wrong, preferring to make the rules themselves.

Another eye opening Sunday at church. ]]> General Theology Sarah Smith http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12040-talking-today-with-a-missionary-to-central-american-sex-trade-workers Christian Life A question about marriage and divorce http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12027-A-question-about-marriage-and-divorce?goto=newpost Sat, 04 May 2013 02:05:50 GMT Here's a question which I might have to wrestle with in the future?!

Suppose a person marries a person of another religious faith overseas according to the particular cultural and religious milieu of that country, but the government of the person's country doesn't recognise that marriage as legitimate; are they then really married?

This needs to be established because if sometime later the person in question "wises up" and decides that they don't really want to be a part of that relationship, do they then need to engage in some form of divorce from the other person?

Perhaps to clarify this matter I could use a hypothetical illustration.
A young Christian lady meets a Muslim man on line, falls in "love", goes overseas to meet him, and then converts to Islam and marries the man in a Muslim marriage ceremony that is not recognised by the e.g. Australian Government. The lady returns home, and after several months of infrequent contact with the "husband" decides she wants out. According to Australian civil society she needs to do nothing but break the relationship and move on with her life. But as a rededicated Christian what might her responsibilities be before God and the "husband"?

The other fact that might need to be taken into consideration is that while the lady is in Australia she is protected from Sharia law, but if the lady goes to the "husband's" homeland, she is not!

Any thoughts? ]]> General Theology David Graham http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12027-A-question-about-marriage-and-divorce Clergy Funeral of a 2 year old http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12016-Funeral-of-a-2-year-old?goto=newpost Fri, 03 May 2013 15:39:41 GMT Monday one of our young families lost a 2 year old. The church is pretty emotionally involved because we prayed her through heart surgery 9 months... Monday one of our young families lost a 2 year old. The church is pretty emotionally involved because we prayed her through heart surgery 9 months ago. They have elected to do a funeral. I am dreading this. The tiny coffin is so hard. Sadly over the years I've done several of these. The father is in the Navy and so it will probably be a very large funeral with a literally a ship load of people.

Okay pastors (or others) - thoughts, material resources, words of wisdom?

I am honored to journey with them but it is a hard journey. ]]> General Theology Craig Laughlin http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12016-Funeral-of-a-2-year-old <![CDATA["the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one"]]> http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12013-quot-the-one-who-has-no-sword-must-sell-his-cloak-and-buy-one-quot?goto=newpost Fri, 03 May 2013 11:56:16 GMT
Luke 22:36-38

He said to them, ‘But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, “And he was counted among the lawless”; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.’ They said, ‘Lord, look, here are two swords.’ He replied, ‘It is enough.’
I've always been puzzled by this command. But the main commentary we're using for the study of Luke (Sacra Pagina) makes sense of this:
This misunderstanding of Jesus' statement about swords reveals just how "unready" the disciples are to follow where Jesus must go - in fact they will use the swords violently in the garden (22:50); they do not understand the meaning of the Scriptures despite Jesus' instruction (cf. 9:45). Jesus' exasperated termination of this discussion ("enough", hikanon estin) here is matched by his chagrin when the sword is actually used (eate eos toutou, "enough of that")! Jesus speech about being "reckoned among the lawless" and being arrested as a lestes is ironic; they are not meant to act like such people! (Luke Timothy Johnson - The Gospel of Luke, p 347)
]]> General Theology Hans Deventer http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/12013-quot-the-one-who-has-no-sword-must-sell-his-cloak-and-buy-one-quot Interview with NT Wright http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11974-Interview-with-NT-Wright?goto=newpost Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:44:08 GMT Nice short interview: http://vimeo.com/54601664 Disclaimer: posting this video does not mean I agree with everything Wright has ever said or... Nice short interview: http://vimeo.com/54601664

Disclaimer: posting this video does not mean I agree with everything Wright has ever said or written or will say or write in the future. ]]> General Theology Hans Deventer http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11974-Interview-with-NT-Wright Curriculum for adult new believers http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11970-Curriculum-for-adult-new-believers?goto=newpost Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:21:59 GMT We recently have had a group of completely unchurched adults come to Christ. We are at the point where we need to create a formal class to deliver... We recently have had a group of completely unchurched adults come to Christ. We are at the point where we need to create a formal class to deliver the head knowledge part. The biggest issue is that most curriculum for new believers is really written for people who has some church background. They don't bother to explain a lot of words that seem very normal to us but are meaningless to someone who is completely unchurched.

Any thoughts? ]]> General Theology Craig Laughlin http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11970-Curriculum-for-adult-new-believers License to modify lyrics? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11959-License-to-modify-lyrics?goto=newpost Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:26:05 GMT Today in worship, we sang a chorus entitled "My Redeemer Lives," written by Reuben Morgan. The first verse says:

"I know he rescued my soul,
His blood has covered my sin,
I believe, I believe."

Now, I realize there is biblical support for the idea of our sin being covered. Ps. 32:1 comes to mind:

"Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered" (NIV).

Yet as Wesleyans, we believe that our sins can be washed away, cleansed. 1 John 1:9 is the most obvious instance: "...and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanses us from all sin" (KJV).

If our sins are merely covered, does that not leave the impression that whatever we do, we need not worry, since God will cover our sin? I'm reminded of Martin Luther's illustration (as given by Dr. Morris Weigelt of NTS), that when God looks at us, we are like a pile of dung, but one on which pure white snow has fallen. Whatever might be underneath, the righteousness of Christ covers us like that blanket of snow, and the pure whiteness is all God can see. Of course, this illustration tends toward antinomianism. We can do what we want, it would seem, since Jesus has us covered!

SO...

Do you think it's legitimate to modify the lyrics of worship songs like the one cited above? Can we sing:

"I know he rescued my soul,
His blood has cleansed all my sin,
I believe, I believe."

And can we do the same when other songs contradict our theology? Can we take such license? Do you? ]]> General Theology Greg Crofford http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11959-License-to-modify-lyrics A mini U.N. in my closet, but at what price? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11958-A-mini-U.N.-in-my-closet-but-at-what-price?goto=newpost Sun, 28 Apr 2013 07:24:49 GMT Systemic evil has always seemed to me like the unsolvable Rubik's cube. The tragic news of the factory collapse in Bangladesh, killing 350, brought this home to me once again.

Here are a few thoughts on what my own guilt is in such a tragedy:

http://gregorycrofford.com/2013/04/2...at-what-price/

But what do you think? Can we overcome systemic evil, and if so, how? ]]> General Theology Greg Crofford http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11958-A-mini-U.N.-in-my-closet-but-at-what-price Church Paedocommunion? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11883-Paedocommunion?goto=newpost Fri, 26 Apr 2013 20:33:17 GMT Since I presume that this question is too tangential to remain it its original thread and since it is theological I'll ask it here.

In another thread this was stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Malcolm View Post
My wife and I co-pastor a church plant that has tended to run about seven people (including us and our 2 yr old)....

Receiving communion every week has been really formative for my daughter, she gets that even if she has no idea what else is going on, so regular participation in the sacraments will continue to be a staple of our service.
Given this; the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene advises the use of 1 Corinthians 11:23-29

Quote:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
And the Manual states:

Quote:
Let all those who have with true repentance forsaken their sins, and have believed in Christ unto salvation, draw near and take these emblems, and, by faith, partake of the life of Jesus Christ, to your soul’s comfort and joy. Let us remember that it is the memorial of the death and passion of our Lord; also a token of His coming again.... May we come before You in true humility and faith as we partake of this holy sacrament. Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
The question then remains how does a two year old examine him/herself in order to partake of the sacrament?

Since when has the CotN endorsed Paedocommunion? or Does it? ]]> General Theology George Wallace http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11883-Paedocommunion Did Jesus baptize? http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11863-Did-Jesus-baptize?goto=newpost Fri, 26 Apr 2013 19:10:34 GMT I'm having a go around on this. I don't believe Jesus baptized anyone and I think the text is clear on that point. However there are a few of my friends who believe He only baptized his disciples or baptized sometimes but not at other times.

Here are the texts in question. What do you guys think? (Not that this is a really important problem)

After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. (John 3:22 ESV)

Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), (John 4:1-2 ESV) ]]> General Theology Benjamin Hobbs http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11863-Did-Jesus-baptize Christian Politics http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11783-Christian-Politics?goto=newpost Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:03:20 GMT I'm in a preaching series we are calling "Failed, how the church failed you and what we are going to do about it" - It has been interesting and fun so far and has drawn a lot of visitors.

This week I'm looking at how the church has failed by being "too political". This got me thinking about success and failure. - As far as I can see the conservative churches involvement in politics has been an unmitigated disaster. The liberal church has done a little better with with wins on civil rights and women's suffrage.

So what are the issues the church has taken on in the last 150 years?

alcohol - Lost
gambling - lost
Entertainment - (speakeasies, movies etc) - lost
abortion - lost - some would say this isn't over but if not then we are losing badly
gay rights - losing badly

civil rights - won - at least politically, certainly not people's hearts.
suffrage - Won

Okay you historians -- what other issues? ]]> General Theology Craig Laughlin http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php/11783-Christian-Politics