Nazarene, or "Baptarene"?

[Greg Crofford]

Well, we wrapped up a thread on another topic today, so I decided to do some reflecting on my dual heritage, Nazarene and Baptist. How do the two inter-relate? Besides our emphasis upon sanctification, is there any other part of our Methodist heritage that is being blunted today? If so, why?

Here's the link to my article on my weblog, "Theology in Overalls.""

http://gregorycrofford.com/2012/10/2...tions-collide/

You can engage here, or discuss over on the blog.

Grace and peace,

Greg

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Excellent. Thank you.

[Greg Farra]

Thanks, Greg! This goes onto my Facebook page.

[Cam Pence]

Thanks, Greg! This goes onto my Facebook page.

As well as mine....thanks for this Greg

[Susan Unger]

I liked these quotes the best -

Her most vocal critics were those Nazarenes who used to be Baptists. They may have bodily left the Baptist fold, but they brought their dismissive attitude toward female pastors with them. I wonder: How often is this story repeated in other Nazarene settings?

A major concern of mine for quite sometime now..

When we re-baptize an individual, we are making ourselves exceptional, thereby denying that we are a constituent part of the larger Body of Christ.

Love that imagery. For someone who values being a part of that community, this is a good point.

The communion ritual in the Nazarene Manual states that the Lord’s Supper is a “memorial” of the death and passion of our Lord. The language of “memorial,” however, is not the language of means of grace. Rather, it is closer to Ulrich Zwingli’s (1484-1531) low view of Eucharist, a view that is more at-home in Baptist circles than Nazarene....It was clear from the conversation that – for him – communion was merely remembering that Jesus had died on the Cross. If that’s all that communion is, then who can fault a church for wanting to celebrate communion only annually? Such a service becomes funeral-like in demeanor. But if Eucharist (from the Greek word for thanksgiving) is instead a joyous occasion for us to celebrate not only what Christ did then but the gracious activity of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and lives now, then can we take it too much?

I highlighted the parts that I have realized the last decade. Being in the "funeral service" type communion was so utterly depressing that I was glad that pastor only served it on a quarterly basis. Being in a service service that believed it was a means of grace, was a joy and I was glad the pastor served it every week.

[Jon Bemis]

Excellent! Thanks!

[Sarah Smith]

We moved so much my nazarene roots became nazarene/baptist/methodist/lutheran/nondenom.

But the more I study, and learn, the more I appreciate those tenets of the AHM part of my roots. They came actually from the more Quaker/Methodist Protestant groups than from the Methodist Episcopal side, which would be more Anglican.

My personal conviction (and I am NOT looking to change anyone else's mind!) is that water baptism saves no one. That being the case, I see it as reserved for believers, and then only if they so choose. The real saving baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit at regeneration in my thoughts.

I resonate strongly with the Phoebe Palmers, the Hannah Whiteall Smith's, and much of the early Salvation Army teachings.

I believe what matters is the inner reality, not the outward symbols of it.

But all that said, I do also resonate strongly with services in more liturgical, sacramental churches. I think that is because the focus remains on Christ and what He does for us rather than trying to work up a frenzy of making Peterlike promises we may not keep.

But I also remind myself my views are also affected by experience in the Wesleyan quadrilateral. When you've spent much of your life in small rural churches unable to afford clergy, or unable to find clergy willing to serve such small numbers, and yet witnessed a vibrant, cleansing, serving group that appears to lack nothing for their lack of officiants and rites, it does skew your view of how important they are. You do begin to see them as the wonderful, beautiful, icing on the cake of faith rather than as the cake itself.

[Ian Gentles]

Though in no way strict on baptism, I never did see the value of infant baptism, or have been convinced of it from scripture. I was emmersed due to Biblical conviction.
As to the AHM that is for Americans. Please understand that we Europeans arent AHM, prefering to be Wesleyan.

[Lucas Finch]

As to the AHM that is for Americans. Please understand that we Europeans arent AHM, prefering to be Wesleyan.

Some of us Americans are the same way.

[Greg Crofford]

UPDATE: The post, "Nazarene or 'Baptarene'?"generated the second largest number of views on my weblog since "Theology in Overalls" began in May 2011. It seems to have struck a chord.

[Doug Ward]

I linked to it - it was well done!

[James Johnson]

I enjoyed the article, I will admit though that one line caught my attention. "Eucharist is the high moment of worship, following a meaty sermon." Could I please get a definition of "meaty sermon"?

[Greg Crofford]

Not one to a vegetarian's liking?

I guess that really depends on your point of view. For me, a "meaty sermon" is one that is expository, really digging into a text and carefully explaining its meaning. Lengthwise, it more than a 10-12 minute speech filled with platitudes, but will last 20-25 minutes, generally.

[James Johnson]

Not one to a vegetarian's liking?

For me, a "meaty sermon" is one that is expository, really digging into a text and carefully explaining its meaning. Lengthwise, it more than a 10-12 minute speech filled with platitudes, but will last 20-25 minutes, generally.

Anyway I could get you to send that to my pastor, especially the part about 20-25 minutes?

[Eric Frey]

Not one to a vegetarian's liking?

I guess that really depends on your point of view. For me, a "meaty sermon" is one that is expository, really digging into a text and carefully explaining its meaning. Lengthwise, it more than a 10-12 minute speech filled with platitudes, but will last 20-25 minutes, generally.

One of the difficulties of doing good liturgy is the time constraints. If congregations are tied into an hour mindset, it is nearly impossible to spend 25 minutes with the sermon. You've really only got about 20-25 for the three readings and whatever is used between them, usually songs of some sort. So in general, out of an hour service, you have 5-10 minutes for the call to worship, a welcome, an opening hymn and an invocation. You've got 20-25 minutes for 3 readings, two songs and a sermon. You've got 20-25 minutes for the creed, the prayers of the people, the peace, the offering and the Communion. You've got 5-10 minutes for announcements, benediction, and a closing hymn. That's a pretty tight schedule!

[Greg Farra]

Eric,

Back in my Lutheran days we knew that having communion would take longer, so the people just went with the flow.

[Eric Frey]

Eric,

Back in my Lutheran days we knew that having communion would take longer, so the people just went with the flow.

Yes, we have done some stretching as well so that the service now probably runs closer to 80-90 minutes, but it moves along pretty quickly. I only say that to say that quality is much more important than quantity. Some of the most thought provoking sermons I've heard have been at Roman Mass or Anglican HC when the sermon was 10 minutes or less...

[Sarah Smith]

At the local Lutheran church, the services on non communion Sundays run about 50 minutes, about an hour and 10 on communion Sundays.

Sermons run 10-20 minutes.

And when we attend there, we usually exit thinking "wow--sure did pack A LOT into that brief time."

Services at the CotN run about an hour now, down from an hour and a half under the previous pastor. But we seem to be learning a lot more now.

Visit the local SBC church and expect the "talk" before the sermon to be 30-45 minutes, the sermon itself 45-60 minutes. And you walk out thinking "sure wish he had said something that needed saying."

We've learned a meaty sermon may be a compact filet mignon, and a lengthy sermon may just be a lot of warmed up leftovers. If our eyes, collectively as a congregation, glass over the first time you give us your 11 points, repeating them twice more isn't likely to get them through our thick skulls either!

[Benjamin Burch]

Yes, we have done some stretching as well so that the service now probably runs closer to 80-90 minutes, but it moves along pretty quickly. I only say that to say that quality is much more important than quantity. Some of the most thought provoking sermons I've heard have been at Roman Mass or Anglican HC when the sermon was 10 minutes or less...

My previous priest rarely preached 20 minutes. Yet he was one of the best preachers I've had the privilege of hearing regularly. Haven't made it since we got our new priest. Work has been tough and I've been walking to a nearby Episcopal Church instead of driving on 3.5 hours of sleep. Hoping to get back to St. Paul's soon to meet our new priest.

[Mike Schutz]

Greg - Just thought you'd like to know that your article has been disseminated and is the topic of conversation in one of our adult Sunday school classes that is concluding their study of the Articles of Faith. It is an interesting mix of senior adults who have been in the church for decades, and new believers for whom the CotN is a new experience. Thanks.

[Greg Crofford]

Greg - Just thought you'd like to know that your article has been disseminated and is the topic of conversation in one of our adult Sunday school classes that is concluding their study of the Articles of Faith. It is an interesting mix of senior adults who have been in the church for decades, and new believers for whom the CotN is a new experience. Thanks.

Mike, that's tremendous! Glad to hear it. Thanks for the good word, brother.

[Billy Cox]

Well, we wrapped up a thread on another topic today, so I decided to do some reflecting on my dual heritage, Nazarene and Baptist. How do the two inter-relate? Besides our emphasis upon sanctification, is there any other part of our Methodist heritage that is being blunted today? If so, why?

Interesting question. I've been musing on this as well, although from a different angle. As you are surely aware, Methodism is not even the only 'heritage' in play within the CotN. Before Baptists began making inroads, verily from day one of the denomination or even earlier, Methodist heritage has been blunted by the American Holiness Movement and the amalgam of religious influences that accompanied it. The CotN was a lovable theological mutt from the start, and time has not made it more purebred.

I have a theory that Wesleyanism is by nature a way of believing that sows seeds of its own dissolution. The via media as practiced in the CotN is not really a middle way, but is 'both-and', especially as it relates to sacraments. The catholic spirit makes us theologically generous (at least compared to vigorously sectarian fundamentalists), which leads us to engage and assimilate visitors of other denominations thinking that we are converting them, when in reality a mutual exchange of theological DNA takes place.

If Methodist heritage is blunted in the CotN, it's because our Methodist heritage doesn't allow us to chase away those scary non-Methodists with a stick.