Does your job require too much Education?

[Shea Zellweger]

My perception is that there are certain jobs out there which require more education than is actually necessary to do the job. Coming immediately to mind is our own Jim Chabot, who is a very experienced builder. Because he doesn't have all of the necessary formal educational requirements, Jim cannot be an architect, and is limited in the size of the building he can construct. Given the amount of experience and the number of licenses Jim has in the field of building, I imagine that he is entirely capable of being an architect, and I'm guessing the requisite degrees would be a bit redundant at this point.

I feel as though there are multiple professions, such as architect, which require a degree of formal education that is not necessary to be a daily practitioner. An architect needs an engineering degree, which would be very useful if the person is planning on going into research or experimental architecture. But if the person is planning on staying within the existing norms of architecture, it seems like the ability to be a researcher is a bit superfluous. My guess is that there are other professions where the formal education prepares a person to be both a researcher and a practitioner, but as a result, those who want to be practitioners are forced to spend more time in school learning to do things (like conduct studies, or design experiments), which they never intend to do. But without gaining this additional education, they can't be fully licensed in their field. They could go out and get on the job training, and be fully capable of doing everything that a practitioner does, but because they haven't learned to be a researcher as well, they're considered ineligible to practice.

On the other hand, many people feel an MDiv is too much education for a pastor, and I disagree with such a claim. So I could be way off

Do you feel that the requisite education for your field is too much, too little, or just about right?

[Benjamin Hobbs]

My perception is that there are certain jobs out there which require more education than is actually necessary to do the job. Coming immediately to mind is our own Jim Chabot, who is a very experienced builder. Because he doesn't have all of the necessary formal educational requirements, Jim cannot be an architect, and is limited in the size of the building he can construct. Given the amount of experience and the number of licenses Jim has in the field of building, I imagine that he is entirely capable of being an architect, and I'm guessing the requisite degrees would be a bit redundant at this point.

I feel as though there are multiple professions, such as architect, which require a degree of formal education that is not necessary to be a daily practitioner. An architect needs an engineering degree, which would be very useful if the person is planning on going into research or experimental architecture. But if the person is planning on staying within the existing norms of architecture, it seems like the ability to be a researcher is a bit superfluous. My guess is that there are other professions where the formal education prepares a person to be both a researcher and a practitioner, but as a result, those who want to be practitioners are forced to spend more time in school learning to do things (like conduct studies, or design experiments), which they never intend to do. But without gaining this additional education, they can't be fully licensed in their field. They could go out and get on the job training, and be fully capable of doing everything that a practitioner does, but because they haven't learned to be a researcher as well, they're considered ineligible to practice.

On the other hand, many people feel an MDiv is too much education for a pastor, and I disagree with such a claim. So I could be way off

Do you feel that the requisite education for your field is too much, too little, or just about right?

Yes, I believe there are some careers out there that practical experience is enough or even better than a degree. But the two you have listed (i.e. pastor and architect) are ones that I believe should have the education they currently require.

As I see it the education is part of the experience a person needs to prevent them from really messing up. Yes, an architect will probably not use Mulitvariable Calculus later in life and will probably never again use manual finite element analysis, but they will know how the information they need later is acquired. A builder with years of experience building houses and two level structures will be fine just doing what they know. But that is not to say that they will be able to carry that experience over to a structure of 5 levels. Experience only gets you so far.

The same goes with Pastors. I think an MDiv is perfectly reasonable and for the same reasons why an architect should have a degree.

On the other hand things like RF engineering (radio frequency) are still considered "black magic". I work in the RF field and I know of two guys who are masters at building microwave filters (bandpass, passband, diplexer, etc) who don't even have a HS diploma. They are on par with their colleagues who have Master's degrees, and depending on the filter, can even do it better/quicker.

[Greg Crofford]

Shea, whether an M.Div. is necessary will depend upon the setting. There were times when the M.Div. seemed like too much for the congregation of GED and high school grads that I pastored straight out of seminary. On the other hand, a church filled with white-collar professionals -- teachers, nurses, doctors, etc -- would want their pastor to at least have the M.Div. and probably would encourage him/her to enroll in a D.Min.

[Billy Cox]

On the other hand, many people feel an MDiv is too much education for a pastor, and I disagree with such a claim. So I could be way off

When I was in school, I worked part-time as a school bus driver. Part of the licensing test included parallel parking a school bus...something that one would NEVER do in real life. Although the particular skill would never be used, it was a test to demonstrate control over the bus and ability to use mirrors.

Perhaps the average pastor will never again translate a New Testament book from Greek into English, but the process of doing so in school (hopefully) gives them firsthand appreciation of what is lost in translation and perhaps makes them think twice about placing undue faith in a 'plain reading' of an English translation. So a particular skill may not be used, but it may very well open doors to formerly unknown fields of inquiry.

Do you feel that the requisite education for your field is too much, too little, or just about right?

My field (Information Technology) has a mix of people with computer science degrees, those with degrees in unrelated fields (like me), and those with no degree at all. Each one has its pluses and minuses.

[Steven Burton]

My field of training is Marketing. I actually think that I did not get enough education due to all the aspects this field encompasses. There is buying and selling. There is the design of ads and ad campaigns. There is market research in forms of polling.

[Eric Frey]

Shea, whether an M.Div. is necessary will depend upon the setting. There were times when the M.Div. seemed like too much for the congregation of GED and high school grads that I pastored straight out of seminary. On the other hand, a church filled with white-collar professionals -- teachers, nurses, doctors, etc -- would want their pastor to at least have the M.Div. and probably would encourage him/her to enroll in a D.Min.

If this is true, and I am not convinced that it is, then I wonder why so many seminary grads get mismatched with such congregations? If it is about finding the right fit, then surely we could be doing better.

OR, and I think this is closer to the case, it is actually more beneficial in the long run to have the seminary experience in the kinds of places you mention. The more difficult the situation, the more important for a solid foundation. Which is why I am more convinced than ever that the MDiv really should be the educational standard for ordination. And now that such a degree is becoming ever more accessible, perhaps we should revisit the issue.

[Ryan Scott]

I'd want to make a distinction between traditional education (ie the liberal arts - or those courses of study focusing on helping people learn how to learn and analyze the world) and technical education (those skills necessary for a specific task).

Ideally, you'd get a bit of both. I suspect the latter is necessary for just about anything and the former, while extremely helpful, is technically necessary in few.

Additionally, I find the former invaluable and would suggest it's worth is beyond whatever it costs.

[Billy Cox]

If this is true, and I am not convinced that it is, then I wonder why so many seminary grads get mismatched with such congregations? If it is about finding the right fit, then surely we could be doing better.

Maybe some DSes think that the pastor with an MDiv needs to be 'reconnected' with the real world while also paying one's dues. There is still a persistent anti-intellectualism within the denomination at all levels of the hierarchy.

[Bob Carabbio]

I'm an Engineer - Chief engineer of my present company. I've been either the Manager of Engineering, or the Chief Engineer in both electrical, and Mechanical fields since 1980, and held a variety of engineering titles before then. I'm also a High School dropout with a High School Equivalency Certificate, but no College under my belt - some short courses in various specific fields, of course. I've got my name of about 8 patents in various fields, and at the age of 70 I'm still working full time, and doing some consultation on the side. I couldn't be a "Licensed Professional Engineer", of course, but that's O.K. as long as the paychecks keep on a-com'in.

If anybody asks about my education I just tell 'em I attended The Knox school - hard division. In fact I'm still going there -

But I really WOULD feel better knowing that the next Doctor who saws my chest cavity open, graduated successfully from an accredited medical college.

[Jim Chabot]

Thanks for the compliment Shea, but no I am not qualified to be an Architect, not by a long shot. While at the same time, I have no doubts that I could learn that trade easily without a formal course of study. Similarly, the young pup fresh out of a five year architecture program isn't qualified to be an architect either, an internship period is required, much the same as is required in many engineering and medical fields. These are fields where a lack of competency is a life safety issue, I think that it's recognized that while education is needed, it's only the precursor to an education that may only be obtained through internship or apprenticeship. My son graduated with a degree in Civil Engineering, he has passed the required testing to begin his internship period and is now in his fourth year of a six year internship. While I can't even begin to grasp the mathematical calculations required to properly design a stormwater management system, still I get calls from time to time where he will ask me for advice as I've built these things and fixed these things for thirty years now. We need sufficient education to begin our journey, we need experience to become competent.

As related to ministry, I think the principle transfers. So many times I've heard "that's something they don't teach you in seminary" from experienced pastors, they realize that it's their experience that has trained them, especially in people skills. I've heard it said here that "people are messy" and I've observed that it's always the young guys who say this, the old timers have learned how to deal with folks of every shape, color, and disposition, it's something that can't be learned in a classroom.

At the same time, I think that we do require too much education for the job. I'm of the persuasion that says that a course of study is sufficient to start, a Mdiv is a ridiculous requirement for someone beginning in the pastorate. I'm reminded of Robert Schuller's story as he relates in his autobiography. In his senior year at school, his class went on a trip to the largest church in his denomination. On the way back, they spent their time ridiculing the simpleton preacher who pastored this church. They were incredulous at the ignorance that this man appeared to possess. Surely if this simpleton could pastor their largest church, they would be setting the world on fire.

After seminary Schuller found that his first pastorate turned out to be a hard landing. Week after week he would prepare sermons that would plumb the depths of his extensive education and beyond. He noticed that folks were bored, some actually fell asleep and other left, his church was in decline under his leadership. Fortunately, he began to muse on why it was that he, with his fine education, was failing, while a simpleton in New York City could lead their largest church. And he looked to him for guidance. With Dr. Peale's mentoring, Schuller's church began to grow, in fact within a short time it had doubled and they were on the move. Of course the cheapskates on his board wouldn't give him a raise and he left for California, but that's just another thing that they don't teach in seminary.

A friend of mine has just celebrated his 25th year in ministry, if I recall he spent eleven years as a music guy and fourteen in the pastorate. He is enrolling in a Mdiv program shortly, his congregation is growing, their church also has a school and they are in the middle of a building program. His duties have changed over time, and I think that this educational endeavor will benefit him greatly at this point in his career. Much more so that at the beginning.

I see the value in theological education, I don't see much wisdom in front loading it. What good is an Mdiv, if you find that your first church is overwhelming you and you need to find another line of work?

[Bob Hunter]

My wife is an Occupational Therapist and specializes in Pediatrics. Her continuing ed requirements are rigorous. New grads are now encouraged to have a Master's degree or pursue a Doctorate. My wife has 20+ years of experience. She can work circles around the new grads and has more expertise and experience in the field. While the new grads have a lot of theory and some great ideas, they often have to be brought down to reality. If she were to add up the amount of continuing education via conferences, workshops, trainings, etc., she would easily have earned one of those degrees. We often think the additional educational requirements for an O.T. are ridiculous. Experience in the field is needed.

This is why most D.Min programs require 3 or more years of full-time ministry. The D.Min professors at George Fox noted that students returning to the classroom after several years in ministry were hungry for education and less likely to have a "know-it-all" attitude. There was little need to deconstruct because ministry has a way of taking a wrecking ball to our egos and all of those great ideas we learned in Seminary.