Did Jesus set aside his divinity?

[Zach Wingo]

The thread that I started asking what criteria you use to determine if something is heresy was in response to a struggle I've had with a particular pastor/church that many friends and loved ones are influenced by. I'll try to give a very brief overview of what is being taught and I'm curious if you would label these teachings as heresy.

The pastor/church in question is a hyper-charismatic church that teaches Dominion(ism) and Kingdom Now theology. The pastors believes/teaches that Jesus set aside his divinity and lived wholly as a man empowered by the Holy Spirit and was incapable of doing anything apart from the empowerment of the Spirit. Thus he suggest that the same power is available to us just as it was to Jesus. We should seek to be empowered by the spirit as Jesus was in order to exercise authority over demons, sickness, disease, poverty, etc., and seek to establish God's kingdom on earth.

In one particular quote he says that if Jesus performed his miracles, signs, and wonders as God that's awesome. But, if he performed them as a man anointed and empowered by the Holy Spirit than the same power is available to us and we should seek after it.

Any thoughts?

Also, can someone please remind me of the theological term for the belief that Jesus set aside his deity and/or power to live as a man?

[Hans Deventer]

I don't know but thank you for the explanation, I think we're dealing with the same problem.

[Ian Gentles]

No Jesus was God come in the flesh Imanuel. He showed His divinity in His miracles.
Sounds like typical charrismatic teaching, if you have the faith etc. A teaching I find quite heretical.

[Randy Wise]

The pastor/church in question is a hyper-charismatic church that teaches Dominion(ism) and Kingdom Now theology. The pastors believes/teaches that Jesus set aside his divinity and lived wholly as a man empowered by the Holy Spirit and was incapable of doing anything apart from the empowerment of the Spirit.


Any thoughts?

Also, can someone please remind me of the theological term for the belief that Jesus set aside his deity and/or power to live as a man?

The Father is in the Son as Jesus taught. By whose Spirit were miracles performed? Jesus willed and the HS acted according to Jesus's commands. Jesus taught who gave Him that authority. How is that any different from God in heaven? The Father wills and His Spirit acts.

"Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit says the Lord."

I don't believe that man or any man has authority to have the God's Holy Spirit follow their will and commands. Only the One and Only who God was pleased to share His fullness with before the world began. Jesus is that One and Only the first and last. No man nor angel of God has all the "treasures of wisdom and knowledge" So God gave the One and Only all that He is. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The Holy Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit and carries out those thoughts and that will even now. That doesn't take away from Jesus the one and only at the Fathers side

Jesus was anointed at His baptism. As Jesus read from Isaiah "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me....." As God foretold, "I shall put my Spirit upon Him and He shall proclaim justice to the nations.."

No matter what body Jesus wears (all the fullness of God in bodily form) the Father is still in the Son. They are one in that respect as Jesus taught. So that's not just a man. The Father came down to us through His Son. I think what Jesus had to learn was to learn to depend on the Fathers help and walk in this world in a human body experiencing all that we experience. "Man does not live on bread alone" Jesus didn't perform miracles to exist. He put His faith in God and walked as we walk in this world. Went to work, did chores etc...

Randy

[Zach Wingo]

Here are some quotes from the pastor's book:


Jesus could not heal the sick. Neither could He deliver the tormented from demons or raise the dead. To believe otherwise is to ignore what He said about Himself, and more importantly, to miss the purpose of His self- imposed restriction to live as a man.

Jesus Christ said of Himself, "The Son can do nothing." ... While He is 100 percent God, He chose to live with the same limitations that man would face once He was redeemed. He made that point over and over again. Jesus became the model for all who would embrace the invitation to invade the impossible in His name. He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, as a man in right relationship to God ... not as God. If He performed miracles because He was God, then they would be unattainable for us. But if He did them as a man, I am responsible to pursue His lifestyle. Recapturing this simple truth changes everything... and makes possible a full restoration of the ministry of Jesus in His Church.

...

In redeeming man, Jesus retrieved what man had given away. From the throne of triumph He declared, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore...."10 In other words: I got it all back. Now go use it and reclaim mankind.

...

We were born to rule—rule over creation, over darkness—to plunder hell and establish the rule of Jesus wherever we go by preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. Kingdom means: King's domain. In the original purpose of God, mankind ruled over creation. Now that sin has entered the world, creation has been infected by darkness, namely: disease, sickness, afflicting spirits, poverty, natural disasters, demonic influence, etc.

Jesus lived His earthly life with human limitations. He laid his divinity aside as He sought to fulfill the assignment given to Him by the Father: to live life as a man without sin, and then die in the place of mankind for sin.

[Hans Deventer]

Jesus could not heal the sick. Neither could He deliver the tormented from demons or raise the dead. To believe otherwise is to ignore what He said about Himself, and more importantly, to miss the purpose of His self- imposed restriction to live as a man.

To believe otherwise is heresy, as condemned by the eucumenical councils of the Church.

Jesus Christ said of Himself, "The Son can do nothing." ...

He actually said: "Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." Obviously, since the Son is God. As He walked this earth.

While He is 100 percent God, He chose to live with the same limitations that man would face once He was redeemed. He made that point over and over again. Jesus became the model for all who would embrace the invitation to invade the impossible in His name. He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, as a man in right relationship to God ... not as God. If He performed miracles because He was God, then they would be unattainable for us. But if He did them as a man, I am responsible to pursue His lifestyle. Recapturing this simple truth changes everything... and makes possible a full restoration of the ministry of Jesus in His Church.

It is an old, old story. People try to tear apart Christ. In itself, I am sympathetic to what he is trying to say, but he does not need a heresy to state this. Simply follow Jesus' own words:

John 14:12 - Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these.

In redeeming man, Jesus retrieved what man had given away. From the throne of triumph He declared, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore...."10 In other words: I got it all back. Now go use it and reclaim mankind.

Actually, He was still standing on this earth, though risen from the death. But before He ascended to heaven.

We were born to rule—rule over creation, over darkness—to plunder hell and establish the rule of Jesus wherever we go by preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. Kingdom means: King's domain. In the original purpose of God, mankind ruled over creation. Now that sin has entered the world, creation has been infected by darkness, namely: disease, sickness, afflicting spirits, poverty, natural disasters, demonic influence, etc.

Plunder hell??? But the rest seems solid.

Jesus lived His earthly life with human limitations. He laid his divinity aside as He sought to fulfill the assignment given to Him by the Father: to live life as a man without sin, and then die in the place of mankind for sin.

Heresy, as simple as that. And totally unecessary too.

The sad thing is that people who appear to be well meaning, have so little historical knowledge about several centuries of Christological discussions, and then present their ideas as if they are new. While the Church already wrestled with the issue so long ago. That is sad.

[Cam Pence]

Plunder hell???

Yeah, like as Jesus pirates! That's somewhere in the Bible right?

[Marsha Lynn]

Here are some quotes from the pastor's book:

Having no formal theological training, my response isn't worth much, but I really don't have a problem with the basic premise. I think we too often go the other way, robbing Jesus of his humanity by presuming supernatural powers he never claimed to possess. For example, when the gospel writers tell us Jesus knew what the Jewish leaders were thinking, many presume his divinity made him a mind-reader, but that's not necessary. Surely, it didn't require supernatural talent to interpret the raised eyebrows and dark glances exchanged after he told the paralytic that his sins were forgiven. He saw people and looked into their souls in the same manner we all can -- by interpreting the look in their eyes and the expressions on their faces.

Beyond the basic premise, however, I am reminded again that I'm not part of the charismatic movement. This man calls us to heal the sick, give sight to the blind, cast out demons, raise the dead, etc. But the "greater work" I see before us is to lift the fallen from out of the pit in which they find themselves. We have amazing medical options that work miracles on physical bodies every day as if it were no big deal. It's the soul-sick who fail to find healing apart from a touch of God. I think that's where the Spirit wants to work through us to do amazing things in the lives around us. And that's not so much a matter of striking people up side the head with spiritual force as practicing incarnation by entering into the world of the broken-hearted and walking alongside them, even as Jesus did.

Just some thoughts.

Marsha

[Benjamin Hobbs]

The thread that I started asking what criteria you use to determine if something is heresy was in response to a struggle I've had with a particular pastor/church that many friends and loved ones are influenced by. I'll try to give a very brief overview of what is being taught and I'm curious if you would label these teachings as heresy.

The pastor/church in question is a hyper-charismatic church that teaches Dominion(ism) and Kingdom Now theology. The pastors believes/teaches that Jesus set aside his divinity and lived wholly as a man empowered by the Holy Spirit and was incapable of doing anything apart from the empowerment of the Spirit. Thus he suggest that the same power is available to us just as it was to Jesus. We should seek to be empowered by the spirit as Jesus was in order to exercise authority over demons, sickness, disease, poverty, etc., and seek to establish God's kingdom on earth.

In one particular quote he says that if Jesus performed his miracles, signs, and wonders as God that's awesome. But, if he performed them as a man anointed and empowered by the Holy Spirit than the same power is available to us and we should seek after it.

Any thoughts?

Also, can someone please remind me of the theological term for the belief that Jesus set aside his deity and/or power to live as a man?

Check out Colossians.

"For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him" (1:19)

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (2:9)

I think this idea comes from a very literal and cherrypicked reading of the Carmen Christi.

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:5-11)

I could also wonder what these people do with all the addresses of Christ being God? One would wonder why Thomas called Jesus "my Lord and my God" if he were then just a man?

And I'm not aware of a term for it, I'd assume it would be a construct of kenosis.... or kenosis-ism or the like.

[Jon Bemis]

Yeah, like as Jesus pirates! That's somewhere in the Bible right?

I think it is from the Veggie Tales Inspired Version (VTIV)

[George Wallace]

I think it is from the Veggie Tales Inspired Version (VTIV)

Nice thought, but it cannot be! Everyone knows that those Pirates don't plunder, ... they don't do anything!

We are the pirates who don’t do anything
We just stay at home and lie around
And if you ask us to do anything
We'll just tell you we don’t do anything

[Susan Unger]

Beyond the basic premise, however, I am reminded again that I'm not part of the charismatic movement. This man calls us to heal the sick, give sight to the blind, cast out demons, raise the dead, etc. But the "greater work" I see before us is to lift the fallen from out of the pit in which they find themselves. We have amazing medical options that work miracles on physical bodies every day as if it were no big deal. It's the soul-sick who fail to find healing apart from a touch of God. I think that's where the Spirit wants to work through us to do amazing things in the lives around us. And that's not so much a matter of striking people up side the head with spiritual force as practicing incarnation by entering into the world of the broken-hearted and walking alongside them, even as Jesus did.

Just some thoughts.

Marsha

This is the conclusion I came up with years ago when confronted with this issue. It seemed like such an obsession with some folks. I would listen to this stuff on tv or from a few friends and feel so unbalanced. Balance came back when I focused on the basics - feeding the poor, strengthening the downcast and being his hands, feet and ears to those around me.

[Greg Farra]

What happens when the blind are not given their sight, the dead are not raised, etc.? Does that mean I don't have enough faith? Or can I blame the victim? I'm in favor of letting God be God, and put it in his hands.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Originally Posted by pastor
Jesus lived His earthly life with human limitations. He laid his divinity aside as He sought to fulfill the assignment given to Him by the Father: to live life as a man without sin, and then die in the place of mankind for sin.

Heresy, as simple as that. And totally unecessary too.

The sad thing is that people who appear to be well meaning, have so little historical knowledge about several centuries of Christological discussions, and then present their ideas as if they are new. While the Church already wrestled with the issue so long ago. That is sad.

I guess as written by Pastor this could be taken to say that Jesus was only human while here (which is heresy) but I don't see it. I see him saying that Jesus, being fully human and fully God, didn't invoke His divinity to help Him through. How is that heresy? It seems to me that the temptations in the wilderness are to get Jesus to do just that, invoke divinity.

[John Reilly]

NO. The doctrine of Christ throughout church history has been affirmed by church councils, Nicea, Chalcedon, that Jesus is two natures in one person. Jesus is fully God and fully human. His ultimate work of atonement could only be possible if He was fully God because only God can be the perfect sacrifice for sin. At the Council of Chalcedon, the church affirmed the hypostatic union of Jesus, being fully God and fully human. Jesus is unique having two natures in one person. All of the miracles performed by Jesus point to his ultimate work of atonement, salvation and sanctification. The ultimate miracle being atonement for our sins paving the way for our resurrection and eternal life. The church must rise up and protect and preach the truth and miracle of Emmanuel, God with US in Jesus. Any religious belief contrary to the cardinal doctrine of an eternal existing Jesus as fully God and becoming incarnate as fully human, is heresy.

[Susan Unger]

What happens when the blind are not given their sight, the dead are not raised, etc.? Does that mean I don't have enough faith? Or can I blame the victim? I'm in favor of letting God be God, and put it in his hands.

Greg, that is exactly what happens - the victim gets blamed. Been there done that. In the worst times of my life I got told that oh so many times.

[Rich Schmidt]

Jesus did not "set aside" his deity or divinity or Godhood or whatever label you want to put on it. He was (and ever shall be) fully God and fully human.

It sounds like this pastor is trying to emphasize the "fully human" part by diminishing the "fully God" part. I don't think there's any need to do that. Jesus certainly did live his life here as "fully human," dependent on the power of the Spirit and his relationship with our heavenly Father. We need to keep the pendulum in the center, not letting it swing to one side (diminishing his humanity) or the other (diminishing his divinity).

I've said similar things (emphasizing Jesus' humanity, his modeling dependence upon the power of the Spirit, just like we do, etc)... but without the whole "setting aside his deity" part.

[Ryan Scott]

It seems like the Pastor is running up on the illogic of the incarnation. All of the things said about Christ as human have basis in scripture - his true and full humanity.

The problem is when we take Jesus's humanity as a preclusion of his divinity. Human cannot be divine. While that makes sense for the most part, we have an exception here in Christ.

[Marsha Lynn]

I guess as written by Pastor this could be taken to say that Jesus was only human while here (which is heresy) but I don't see it. I see him saying that Jesus, being fully human and fully God, didn't invoke His divinity to help Him through. How is that heresy? It seems to me that the temptations in the wilderness are to get Jesus to do just that, invoke divinity.

That was my take as well, Paul.

[Benjamin Burch]

Technically I'd say Rich is correct here. I wouldn't say there's really anything wrong with what this Pastor is saying except that he "laid aside his divinity."

God took on human form and the limitations that come with that. Yet, as God, Jesus lifted humanity from its previous state of filth. Jesus trusted the Father and relied on the Spirit in the Kenotic Hypostatic Union, yes. Absolutely. As a model for us and what we can accomplish? Sort of.

It isn't because we as humans have the HS like Jesus as a human had the HS. No. It is because we are being made one with God through the mystical union offered to us in the Sacraments of the Church, and as Peter says, we are becoming partakers/participants in the divine life.

The pastor seems to be saying all the right things, just sorta the wrong way. The history of Christian tradition is full of such things. When we try to say too much, we end up wrong.

[James Diggs]

The thread that I started asking what criteria you use to determine if something is heresy was in response to a struggle I've had with a particular pastor/church that many friends and loved ones are influenced by. I'll try to give a very brief overview of what is being taught and I'm curious if you would label these teachings as heresy.

The pastor/church in question is a hyper-charismatic church that teaches Dominion(ism) and Kingdom Now theology. The pastors believes/teaches that Jesus set aside his divinity and lived wholly as a man empowered by the Holy Spirit and was incapable of doing anything apart from the empowerment of the Spirit. Thus he suggest that the same power is available to us just as it was to Jesus. We should seek to be empowered by the spirit as Jesus was in order to exercise authority over demons, sickness, disease, poverty, etc., and seek to establish God's kingdom on earth.

In one particular quote he says that if Jesus performed his miracles, signs, and wonders as God that's awesome. But, if he performed them as a man anointed and empowered by the Holy Spirit than the same power is available to us and we should seek after it.

Any thoughts?

Also, can someone please remind me of the theological term for the belief that Jesus set aside his deity and/or power to live as a man?

Depends what you mean by "set aside" his deity. I agree with Philippians 2:6-8, and I think he did set aside the implications of what we typically think of when it comes to wielding the power of God and operated as as a servant that was led much like we can in Him. But this does not mean that as he humbled himself and completely embraced humanity he ever gave up being God; in fact it may be the opposite as in this Jesus also shows us what God is really like. We can only see God for who he really is and be reconciled to him through Jesus Christ who humbled himself even to the point of the cross.

I think the lesson for us as far as who God is and how we are made in his image is that we are reconciled to God by identifying with Christ's humility through the Way of the cross (which is God identifying with us) rather than thinking that having power is what being God is all about and thus having power is how we are to be like him. The gospel is completely opposite to how the world (and a worldly version of Christianity) thinks about God.

[Benjamin Hobbs]

Technically I'd say Rich is correct here. I wouldn't say there's really anything wrong with what this Pastor is saying except that he "laid aside his divinity."

God took on human form and the limitations that come with that. Yet, as God, Jesus lifted humanity from its previous state of filth. Jesus trusted the Father and relied on the Spirit in the Kenotic Hypostatic Union, yes. Absolutely. As a model for us and what we can accomplish? Sort of.

It isn't because we as humans have the HS like Jesus as a human had the HS. No. It is because we are being made one with God through the mystical union offered to us in the Sacraments of the Church, and as Peter says, we are becoming partakers/participants in the divine life.

The pastor seems to be saying all the right things, just sorta the wrong way. The history of Christian tradition is full of such things. When we try to say too much, we end up wrong.

Because I don't know the pastor I'm gonna have to agree with you. But at the same time I wouldn't put a tritheism bent past an ultra charismatic group.

Btw, the NASB translates part of the Carmen Christi as "laid aside his privileges". So "laid aside his divinity" could be said to be somewhat biblical, but only in the light of the clear statements of Colossians.

[Zach Wingo]

If it helps to know the pastor is Bill Johnson from the Bethel church in Redding, CA. I didn't mention the name at first because it's not about him. The Bethel church left the AoG churches despite please from the denomination to remain. The particular book these quote came from was "When Heaven Invades Earth." I was hesitant at first to use the term heresy but as I read his books it seemed as if it were deliberate and necessary to reduce Jesus to a mere man in order to fit their theological agenda of Dominion(ism) theology. He states in the book that God cannot be accurately represented to the world apart from signs and wonders. He believes it is necessary for believers to exercise authority over this world in order to take back the Kings Domain and accurately represent God. In order to justify this position he has to say, "Jesus was a man and he did it so you can too." He regularly cites his friends/mentors as being the likes of Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, and Rodney howard Brown.

I want to share a quick thought on some previous comments. I was reading some older commentaries and most are in agreement that it wasn't his power or divinity He set aside. Instead they seem to believe Jesus humbly chose to set aside his own will in obedient subjection to the will of the father so much so that he could do nothing of his own accord.

Anyways, thanks for all the comments, it give me some things to think about as I discuss this theology with my friends.
(If anyone wants me to email a pdf copy of the book just let me know.)

[Randy Wise]

Did Jesus set aside his divinity?
Well to me the Son that was occupied that human body. The Father was still in Him and it was the Father doing His work. It was the Father teaching Him what to state and how to state things. How is that not God with us? Keep in mind their is only One Spirit who is God. We know that is the Father. Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit" So if that Spirit is God you have two Gods. If that Spirit isn't God then what part of Jesus was God?

Randy

[Zach Wingo]

As mentioned earlier i was reading some commentaries today and found a few statements helpful. Every commentary I've read so far maintains that Jesus did not set aside or give up any of his power, or divinity when he became a man. (Sorry for the length).

Daniel D. Whedon Phil. 2:7-8

We may observe, (1) That the incarnate Christ alone is here spoken of ought to be beyond all question. He existed in the form of God before he took the form of a servant. His becoming man was preceded by a self-divestiture, and this again by thinking a certain thing no robbery. It is, then, the pre-existent Christ whose action in self-humiliation is here described; and we have before us, in succession, his ante-mundane glory, his voluntary abasement, and his subsequent exaltation. (2) The form of God cannot mean his divine nature or essence, although its possession is implied, because in taking humanity he did not put off his Godhead; nor his extraordinarily miraculous powers, for he retained them in his incarnate state; nor yet again his attributes of omnipotence and omniscience, for he did not divest himself of them. It is rather the majesty and glory in which God dwells and appears to the eyes of the angels, manifesting his infinite perfections, the splendor and visible "light which no man can approach;" (1 Tim 6:16); The glory which Christ had with the Father "before the world was," (John 17:5) with the myriads of attending angels, the worship and honor paid him, and his whole state of heavenly royalty. (3) That Christ is equal with God is here an asserted fact. He who has the form of God must be on an equality with him in every respect, and especially in the possession of this form, which is the particular thing in contrast with the form of a servant which he chose instead. (4) Thought it not robbery, This clause is better translated, he deemed not his being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped at, that is, grasped and exclusively retained for himself. Christ had a clear right both to his Godhead, and the glorious mode of manifesting himself in which the inhabitants of heaven were wont to see him. Equally clear was his right to retain that glory and to appear the God forever. Had he been moved by selfishness instead of love — had he looked only on his own things and not also on the things of others — he would have held fast his glorious state, and appeared on earth in all his majesty. This is just what he did not do. Conceive him as deciding whether he will retain his glory or become a man, and we see him thinking the glory a thing not to be seized and firmly held, if by laying it aside he can better save men. His self-denying motive is thus apparent. (5) Instead of an eager clinging to his right of his majestic glory in appearance among men, he, on the contrary, made himself of no reputation, or, better translated, he emptied himself. But of what did he empty himself? Not his divine nature — not his essential equality with God — not his attributes — not his absolute right to his glory; of these he could not divest himself. He did not cease to be God, but he laid aside, phenomenally, form of God, veiling his ineffable glory, hiding his awful majesty, and foregoing the exhibition of himself to men as God. (6) The mode and extent of this self-divestiture appear in the contrast of his assumed previous condition. He had the form of God, he took the form of a servant of God instead. His appearance before men was as a servant who obeys, and not the Infinite King who commands. Still further, he was made in the likeness of men. Jesus of Nazareth was true man, but the eternal Logos took that humanity upon him. (7) The description thus far is of the condescension of our Lord from his pre-mundane glory to his self-emptying in his incarnation. It is now of his self-humiliation after having taken humanity and veiled his glory, that is, as the incarnate Logos. In this state, with all the outward semblance of a man, he humbled himself yet further, by becoming obedient to the will of God unto the suffering of death; and as if this were not going sufficiently low, even to the death of the cross, the severest in pain and the most revolting in its shame. Higher than he was he could not be; to a lower depth of humiliation he could not go. A more powerful argument against "strife," "vainglory," and all self-seeking could not be framed.

JFB - Phil. 2:8

"...rather in Greek, "emptied Himself, taking upon him the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." The two latter clauses (there being no conjunctions, "and.." in the Greek) expresses in what Christ's "emptying of Himself" consists, namely, in "taking the form of a servant" and in order to explain how He took "the form of a servant," there is added, by "being made in the likeness of men." His subjection to the law (Luke 2:21; Gal. 4:4) and to His parents (Luke 2:51), His low state as a carpenter, and carpenter's reputed son, His betrayal for the price of a bond servant, and slave like death to relieve us from the slavery of sin and death, finally and chiefly, His servant-like dependence as a man on God , while His divinity was not outwardly manifested (Isa 49:3,7), are all marks of His "form as a servant." This proves: 1) He was in the form of a servant as soon as He was made man. 2) He was in the form of God" as "in the form of a servant"; and was so in the form of God as "to be on an equality with God"; He therefore could have been none other than God; for God saith, "To whom will ye like me and make Me equal?" (Isa. 46:5). His emptying Himself presupposes His previous plentitude of Godhead. He remained full of this; yet He bore Himself as if He were empty."


Barnes New Testament Notes - Phil. 2:8

...He assumed all the innocent infirmities of our nature. He appeared as other men do, was subjected to the necessity of food and raiment, like others, and was made liable to suffering, as other men are. It was still He who had been in the "form of God" who thus appeared; and, though his Divine glory had been for a time laid aside, yet it was not extinguished or lost. It is important to remember, in all our meditations on the Saviour, that it was the same Being who had been invested with so much glory in heaven that appeared on earth in the form of man."

...when he became a man, he "emptied himself," or laid aside the symbols of his glory; now, when a man, he humbled himself. That is though he was God appearing in the form of man -- a Divine person on earth -- yet he did not assume and assert the dignity and prerogatives appropriate to a Divine Being, but put himself in a condition of obedience.

[Bob Carabbio]

Jesus REPEATEDLY said that He DIDN'T do things "of himself, but DID do those things that he was led to do by Father.

Re: John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

And Jesus BEGAN his ministry when the Holy Spirit came and dwelled on Him.

The "Charismatic outpouring" (1966-1978 or so) was the time during which I STOPPED "envisioning Jesus" as "God almighty hiding inside a "Man suit" pretending to be human", and began to recognize Him as a ADAMIC HUMAN MAN - who walked, and ministered NOT as "God almighty", but as a MAN with all the intrinsic limitations common to mankind, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and supported in life by His constant communion, and prayer life with Father God.

In fact my OPINION is that Jesus had to accept his very "God-Hood" as the very incarnation of the WORD who was with God and WAS God - by FAITH. The SAME faith, in fact with which WE have to accept our PERFECT STANDING before God through the Blood of Jesus - faith in God's WORD to us. Satan's "If thou be the Son of God" would have no effect on one who was, in fact, totally AWARE of what He was. but Jesus WAS TEMPTED in EVERY WAY as we are - and if HE was not "walking as a MAN" - none of that would even be true, and he WOULDN'T have been "Touched by our infirmity" at all.

SO I'd PERSONALLY have no issue with either the pastor's "Opinion" about Jesus, NOR of the obvious ramification for US and our POTENTIAL ministries in the Power of the Holy Spirit..

Mark 11:22-24 is essentially a statement of the POTENTIAL inherent in "Having FAITH in God", and the "Mountain" is a statement of "Magnitude".

The Bible says that we ALL have "Measured", of "Metered" faith - i.e. "Faith that's given to us according to the need", and it also says that Jesus had Faith "Without measure" - i.e. "Unlimited"/"Unbounded".

Seems that "Kenosis" (Gr. Emptying) is the term.

[Billy Cox]

Jesus did not "set aside" his deity or divinity or Godhood or whatever label you want to put on it. He was (and ever shall be) fully God and fully human.

It sounds like this pastor is trying to emphasize the "fully human" part by diminishing the "fully God" part. I don't think there's any need to do that. Jesus certainly did live his life here as "fully human," dependent on the power of the Spirit and his relationship with our heavenly Father. We need to keep the pendulum in the center, not letting it swing to one side (diminishing his humanity) or the other (diminishing his divinity).

I believe there is no pendulum. This is one of those so-called tensions that we hold on to because we lack the faith to accept the incarnation at face value. We cannot therefore say with certainty what Jesus did or did not know, or what Jesus could or could not do.

[Rich Schmidt]

I believe there is no pendulum. This is one of those so-called tensions that we hold on to because we lack the faith to accept the incarnation at face value. We cannot therefore say with certainty what Jesus did or did not know, or what Jesus could or could not do.

I'm trying to figure out where you disagree with me... Sounds like we both believe in the incarnation, fully God, fully human, etc.

[Billy Cox]

I'm trying to figure out where you disagree with me... Sounds like we both believe in the incarnation, fully God, fully human, etc.

I don't know that I disagree in principle, but the pendulum is a grossly overused metaphor that seems to suggest that there is a window within which speculative analysis is constructive.