Does anyone else find these vaguely idolatrous?

[Shea Zellweger]

In the pledge to the Christian flag, you are pledging yourself to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. The flag is a symbol, just like your wedding ring is a symbol of your love for your wife and your constant fidelity.

No,
The text of the pledge is:
"I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe."
It is a pledge to both the Christian Flag AND "the Savior for whose kingdom it stands," just as the American pledge is a pledge to both flag and country. It is a pledging of oneself to a symbol in addition to the person which it symbolizes. If we want to cut out the "middleman" and pledge ourselves to Jesus, I'm fine with that, but pledging to the flag is indeed just that.
Your point about the wedding ring is not analogous to the matter at hand. At no point have I pledged my troth to my wedding ring, nor fidelity to it. There is a vast difference between having a symbolic representation of your devotion (a ring, a cross, what have you), and pledging allegiance to that symbol. In the first case, it is a representation of where your true allegiances lie. In the latter case, it is pledging yourself not only to the person or ideal, but also to the symbols which represent them.

[Lorie Hatcliff]

No,
The text of the pledge is:
"I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe."
It is a pledge to both the Christian Flag [b]AND[b] "the Savior for whose kingdom it stands," just as the American pledge is a pledge to both flag and country. It is a pledging of oneself to a symbol in addition to the person which it symbolizes. If we want to cut out the "middleman" and pledge ourselves to Jesus, I'm fine with that, but pledging to the flag is indeed just that.
Your point about the wedding ring is not analogous to the matter at hand. At no point have I pledged my troth to my wedding ring, nor fidelity to it. There is a vast difference between having a symbolic representation of your devotion (a ring, a cross, what have you), and pledging allegiance to that symbol. In the first case, it is a representation of where your true allegiances lie. In the latter case, it is pledging yourself not only to the person or ideal, but also to the symbols which represent them.

Shea, there are several versions of the pledge and the one that I stated is the one that we have said for years.

If you are concerned that the piece of material that has a cross sewn into the fabric is idolatry to you, then you probably shouldn't pledge to it. I, for one, do not bow or worship, or think of this piece of fabric as anything but a symbol of what it stands for, and I know of NO ONE that has ever thought that either. ....No one until Naznet, that is.

[John Kennedy]

I'm just sitting here thinking about the post by Mark Metcalfe about the 'new legalism'. Apparently there's a new set of no-no's that determines whether or not one is numbered among the sheep or the goats. I now hear people unloading about the idolatrous nature of a pledge of allegiance with the same fervor I used to hear from people about makeup or movies.

Let me say at the outset that I don't think a church service is a place for pledging allegiance to the US flag. I'm likewise troubled by the concept of a military or quasi-military drill team posting the colors in a worship service. My chief concern is that stuff like this is but another example of one of the chief problems facing corporate worship today - the loss of focus. But idolatrous....?

Both the American flag pledge and the Christian flag pledge make a clear differentiating statement about the symbol and the thing symbolized. Most people would be able to tell the difference - unless they had an axe that was in need of continuous grinding.

The Christian flag pledge that I grew up with said: "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands, one brotherhood uniting all mankind in service and love." Whoever wrote it probably used the US flag pledge as a template. It would probably be better had it been written to say something like "I pledge allegiance to the Savior and kingdom symbolized by this banner and commit myslef to the uniting of all mankind in service and love."

Many of you, except for those dear souls who are charter members of the Fellowship of Christian Scolds" could probably agree with such a pledge.

This whole discussion and the other one on self-defense is replete with incredibly rich irony. Many of the ardent 'scolders' are also proponents, as am I, of the beneficial uses of symbolism in the enrichment of the Christian faith. This might be a good place for some education rather than condemnation.

[Dale Cozby]

I'm not so sure it is. The crux of the argument for having such things as the flag or the pledge in worship is that while some people make idols out of these things, they aren't that way for everyone.

It seems like Dale was trying to relate that position to one of veneration of the saints. The idea that, definitively, saying "_______ action is idolatrous, whether people who do it realize it or not." Which, itself might be a red herring in the real discussion, but something to be addressed nonetheless.

Thank you for connecting the dots

[Dale Cozby]

Of course I do get that Dale was suggesting it as an example of what one group finds as idolatrous another finds as entirely acceptable but the potential to get off point seems abundant -of course that is MO for Naznet so I guess I shouldn't be too quick to point it out.

I was seeking to point out that just because I or you may find some practice bordering on idolatrous, rather than getting all creeped out, we might ought to see where others are getting creeped out by our idolatry while offering grace to them.

Someone might say, standing and facing the band is a form of exalting the praise band, another person might say kneeling before a statue is going too far, others might say your view of the sacraments is idolatry. Perhaps we should be slow to pass judgment on others practices in church as idolatry and say, well that isn't for me, but you go ahead if it helps you draw closer to Christ.

That said, I am not sure pledges will do that very much. On the 4th we sang songs to and about God's love, etc.... I allowed the Children's department to sing two "patriotic"(Americanized praise and thanksgiving for our country) songs, one was America the Beautiful sung by own 6 yr old son. Everyone enjoyed them both and it was fitting to do so on that day in the country we are in. I find it no more unfitting than honoring mom's or dad's on those days set aside to so.

[Jim Franklin]

Absolutely not, and I find the question itself somewhat offensive. For one who grew up during the Great Generations fight in both Europe and the Pacific and lost loved ones in France and Vietnam it always troubles me to have people question expressions of loyalty, patriotism and dedication to God or Country.

Would the display of an open Bible on a table in front of the podium be idolatrous?

[Kami Tuenning]

Not dead people.

What happened to the "Great Communion of Saints"? ! I certainly hope I am not dead in heaven!

[Julie Reed]

Likewise, I don't find loyalty to my country to be idolatrous, so I don't find the Pledge to the Flag of the United States of America to be idolatrous.

It doesn't bother me to have these said at all.

[Mike Schutz]

I am not sure how such a question could be offensive. It is a question of how we see our relationship to certain symbols. It is exactly the kind of conversation that I have had with my children as we discussed the differences between Nazarenes and our fellow Christians the Mennonites.

[Ryan Plott]

Absolutely not, and I find the question itself somewhat offensive. For one who grew up during the Great Generations fight in both Europe and the Pacific and lost loved ones in France and Vietnam it always troubles me to have people question expressions of loyalty, patriotism and dedication to God or Country.

Would the display of an open Bible on a table in front of the podium be idolatrous?

Jim,

May I ask which post your "Absolutely not, and I find the question itself somewhat offensive." was in reference to? I'm assuming it was the thread starter but I want to be sure.

I love my country and the rights I have been given as a citizen of that country, but as I interact more and more with the gospel message of all mankind being equal in the sight of God, how the kingdom of God transcends physical and national boundaries, and how Christ actions show his peculiar attachment to his national identity of Israel with his acceptance of a Roman centurion and other Gentiles as followers of God, and used examples of Samaritans in his parables over the religious hierarchy in his parables, I am forced to ask myself if my attachment to my country is revealing itself in a manner that can be called Christ-like. When I looked at the life of Christ for myself I found that it is perfectly acceptable to pray for one's country of origin(even mourn at times), to love my neighbors as I love myself, and to treat people from all political realms within that nation the same. I also came to the conclusion that God's kingdom demands not only my allegiance in not only word but in heart, soul, mind, and body. A cause that great and radical not only expects but demands that high level of allegiance from an myself and I find that cause worth laying everything aside for, including my identity as an American.

I don't wish to offend you Jim, all three of my grandfathers(one step) fought in WWII and one saw action in Vietnam as well. You will never hear me question their bravery, heart, or love for their country. I just ask that they, and you, not be overly troubled my, or anyone's decision, to do our best to live for the KoG even if that includes our national identity. It's not a matter of legalism as has been posited on this thread, for me at least, but rather it's a result of a long process of wrestling with the text and God on where I should be in relation to Him. I love America, particularly the South, with a love that could be described as phileo but the love I have, and continually try to develop for the KoG I try to describe as agape and is a type of love that I feel is more appropriate given the high level of allegiance demanded by the KoG and at times makes me question things and make choices that others might not understand or agree with.

Note: I realize that in reading this thread the assumption might be made that I am questioning your loyalty to God's kingdom. That is not the case, I would never presume to do such a thing. From what I've read of your posts on Naznet you are a person who is doing their best to live and seek after God. FWIW from a 22 year old student living in Indy that you've never met, I have respect for you and your ministry. I'm just trying to show you my thought process as someone who is wrestling with the relationship between God and country. For me it is not as black and white as I'd like it to be. Hopefully what I've written here is clear and articulate.

As for your question about the Bible:

I think that would depend on the circumstances. I know a church where that was the case when there was an abnormal amount of attachment to a Bible that caused a great deal of trouble for an inanimate object and its removal led to people leaving the church. For other churches it has probably not, and will never be, the case. When our attachment to things outgrows our attachment to God's Kingdom is when the questions of loyalty and idolatry would arise for me on that issue.

[Charles W Christian]

I really don't see any place for the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag in any worship service. The Bible and Christian Flag pledge seem a bit strange to me, too, but if I had to choose between the the three and couldn't choose "none of the above" I would certainly do without the pledge to the American flag. I don't mind saying such a pledge at other events, though. It's just that putting such a pledge in a place that is meant to be multinational -- like Church is supposed to be (remember Acts 2??) -- sends the wrong signal about what the church is about.

It is a case of our patriotism clashing with our faith. Some will and have chosen patriotism over faith, but I honestly believe that is a form of idolatry. Even petitioning Mary, which I do not do as a Protestant, is different theologically from pledging onself to a particular region or nation in the context of a worship service.

I remember in Russia hearing people gasp when they saw a stained glass window that portrayed a former Russian Czar alongside biblical characters. The people who gasped at this were Americans. However, many wouldn't flinch about the pledge of allegiance being said in a service of worship!

Save your pledge of allegiance to the flag for civil events, Scout troop gatherings, public schools, football games, and military rituals. These are great places to do such a thing, and I have no problem "dancing with who brought us" (so to speak) in those settings. However, the Church of Jesus Christ is it OWN nation, and for Christians, loyalty to the Church outranks our allegiance to any other nation or entity. Period....

I am a pastor, by the way. I would never have such a pledge or any kind of "flag ceremony" in the service of worship over which I preside. And, if we do sing "His Truth is Marching On" or something like "America the Beautiful", etc. (which would be quite rare if at all), we do so with an explanation that these songs are to be prayers for God's Kingdom and not simply to exalt any nation above the Sovereignty of the Kingdom of God....

Thanks,
Charles

[Hans Deventer]

We pledge to the symbol of what it stands for...just as a wedding ring stands for the love between a man and woman.

Good example. I didn't and don't pledge allegiance to a wedding ring.

We pledge to what the book stands for....God's written word.

Still not remotely good enough. I believe in God, not in the Bible. I've explained that at some length here

In the pledge to the Christian flag, you are pledging yourself to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. The flag is a symbol, just like your wedding ring is a symbol of your love for your wife and your constant fidelity.

Lorie, I see no reason at all to use these symbols when I could pledge to the real thing. I'm happy to voice the Apostolic creed and say I believe in God. What's the flag for? Beats me.

In the pledge to the Bible you are pledging yourself to the ideas therein (or cause in the above definition--the Gospel--God's words to us) of the Bible.

Nobody will ask me at the gate if I believed in the Bible. They will ask me if I followed Jesus, if any question will be asked at that moment.

NO ONE is saying you are putting any of these above God. I do not think God grieves when he hears Christians recite,
" I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. One brotherhood, uniting Christians everywhere in service and in love."
Nor do I think he is upset to hear, "I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's Holy Word. I will make it a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path and will hide its words in my heart that I might not sin against God."

I would bring shivers down my spine. I could never get this out of my mouth, probably not even with a gun against my head.

I guess if one feels idolatrous while pledging such devotion, one should not say it. Thankfully, our one nation under God allows us to abstain. But I have no problems at all pledging allegiance (devotion, loyalty) to flags (for what they stand for) and the Bible (for what it contains).

I do. Very strongly.

For the record, the Dutch have no tradition of pledging allegiance to anything. I've never done that in my entire life (52 years so far). Our National Anthem has an historic content that speaks about the fight for freedom in the 16th century by William of Orange. That's what we sing and I'm happy to do that. I've only been saluting the flag when I was in the army (drafted) and I had to. That's been 30 years, haven't done it since.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm just sitting here thinking about the post by Mark Metcalfe about the 'new legalism'. Apparently there's a new set of no-no's that determines whether or not one is numbered among the sheep or the goats. I now hear people unloading about the idolatrous nature of a pledge of allegiance with the same fervor I used to hear from people about makeup or movies.

Is that what Mark's post was about? That would be helpful. And I disagree. In the old days you were indeed considered among the goats and shunned. Now, I'm merely stating my feelings and reasons. I have not rejected any person for pledging allegiance. In fact, let me go on record as saying that it might be possible to do it properly and avoid "civil religion". I myself however cannot and would feel very, very uncomfortable with it.

So I much prefer this "new legalism" because it isn't.

As to symbols, I'm OK with symbols done properly. Just won't ever pledge allegiance to them.

[Hans Deventer]

Absolutely not, and I find the question itself somewhat offensive. For one who grew up during the Great Generations fight in both Europe and the Pacific and lost loved ones in France and Vietnam it always troubles me to have people question expressions of loyalty, patriotism and dedication to God or Country.

Jim, can you understand how one can deeply appreciate the personal sacrifices that have been made and yet, don't want loyalty to God mix with loyalty to one's country?

Would the display of an open Bible on a table in front of the podium be idolatrous?

Not to me, definitely not. We read the Scriptures because they testify about Jesus (John 5:39), and that we "may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing [we] may have life in his name." (John 20:30)

[Roland Hearn]

What happened to the "Great Communion of Saints"? ! I certainly hope I am not dead in heaven!

Tami - apart from the obvious sarcasm are you seriously contending for prayer to departed spirits?

[Gina Stevenson]

But to pray to or to ask the dead to pray for me or anyone else? Jesus taught us to pray, I start every prayer with "Father" I pray to no one else.

See what you're saying, yet there are instances also where it suggests in Scripture to pray for one another, to ask to be prayed for ["ask the elders," etc] ... and certainly, while "assembling together" in the prescribed manner, there is prayer for/with/by others for both them and us. So, while "Our Father ..." as Jesus prescribed is a great place to start, other prayer is definitely suggested, as well. So, guess if we can "ask" [not pray to] others for prayer who are alive, it is conceivable that one could "ask" [not pray to] someone who is also "alive" tho' departed from this earth to pray for them, just as they did while here. That does seem unusual, tho' and is something I'd not tho't of, or I'd have been "asking" my dearly departed husband for several years now to pray for me, just as he did while here. Hmmm ... actually, since they're a bit more knowledgeable as to what's priority/what's not/etc being where they no longer "see through a glass, darkly (indistinctly?)," they might better know what/how to pray for us than those on earth, huh? What a tho't! But I can't grasp it .......
(Do still miss having someone to pray with daily, tho', I must admit, 'cuz we did that.)

Now in regard to praying to saints that are in heaven. Since they are not God how are they suppose to hear our prayers?

Randy

Not a matter of praying to, but perhaps "asking" for them to pray, since we're to only pray to God. Also, there's Jesus, "ever interceding" for us [love that song!], but yet still can't quite conceive of asking others, alive as they are, to intercede for us after they're gone.

If you are concerned that the piece of material that has a cross sewn into the fabric is idolatry to you, then you probably shouldn't pledge to it. I, for one, do not bow or worship, or think of this piece of fabric as anything but a symbol of what it stands for, and I know of NO ONE that has ever thought that either. ....No one until Naznet, that is.

Perhaps because of being a rather visual person [can't believe the # of pictures I still find myself saving from the web for "just in case I need it" instances, tho' it's now harder to put them here on NazNet!], I can totally understand symbolism ... in fact, was wondering what they did with a banner I painted in calligraphy once the church out in Hudsonville closed down while I was not looking ... that might've been nice to give to where I'm at now, as I've not the gumption to make another one ... there was too much crawling around on the floor while sketching/painting that one long ago!

The Christian flag pledge that I grew up with said: "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands, one brotherhood uniting all mankind in service and love."

'Believe that's the one I learned, too, long ago and have since forgotten, now that I see it here.

Many of the ardent 'scolders' are also proponents, as am I, of the beneficial uses of symbolism in the enrichment of the Christian faith. This might be a good place for some education rather than condemnation.

The underlined portion = very good, concise way to put it [but then I'm prejudiced, too].

For the record, the Dutch have no tradition of pledging allegiance to anything. I've never done that in my entire life (52 years so far). Our National Anthem has an historic content that speaks about the fight for freedom in the 16th century by William of Orange ........

Aha! Tho' off topic, have to ask: Is that why we saw all sorts of orange clothing at the Olympics in the Dutch corner?

[Shea Zellweger]

Tami - apart from the obvious sarcasm are you seriously contending for prayer to departed spirits?

Given that Tami is a member (are you full communion yet, Tami?), I would imagine that she is very much contending for "prayer" to departed spirits, though if she's got her church dogma right, it's not prayer in the sense that we pray to God, and I have no problem with it whatsoever. I like the fact that my theology allows me to address those saints who have gone on before me, even if I do not expect them to answer. Sometimes while reading Scripture, I will carry on a one-sided discussion with the author of the text. I don't know if s/he listens, and given the sheer number of people who address these saints at any given time, I'd guess not, but I do believe it's possible, and I'd guess at some point one or two of them have indeed heard me.

[Jon Twitchell]

Absolutely not, and I find the question itself somewhat offensive. For one who grew up during the Great Generations fight in both Europe and the Pacific and lost loved ones in France and Vietnam it always troubles me to have people question expressions of loyalty, patriotism and dedication to God or Country.

Would the display of an open Bible on a table in front of the podium be idolatrous?

I don't know that I think it would be idolatrous. But I'm hesitant to put much of anything on the Communion Table that would take the place of the communion elements. An open Bible would certainly be preferable to a floral arrangement (or literature... I was in one church that had moved their Communion Table to the back of the sanctuary and covered it with bulletins and newspapers and pamphlets).

Again, I don't think it would be idolatrous... but you already have one piece of furniture for an open Bible (the podium you just mentioned). I'm not sure why you would need a second one.

[Jim Chabot]

Jim, can you understand how one can deeply appreciate the personal sacrifices that have been made and yet, don't want loyalty to God mix with loyalty to one's country?

Thanks so much for the way you have said this Hans! I have read what may be this same sentiment said in very offensive ways many, many times. I can fully respect what you have said here, thank you once again!

Oh and you may want to be careful about singing of William of Orange around the Irish, they are still a little sore about that feller.

[James Diggs]

NO ONE is saying you are putting any of these above God. ....In the pledge to the Bible you are pledging yourself to the ideas therein ..... I have no problems at all pledging allegiance (devotion, loyalty) to flags (for what they stand for) and the Bible (for what it contains).

idolatry is not just about putting something above God- but also thinking God is contained by some earthly representation of him. This is why pledging your allegiance to the Bible is idolatry because it reduces God to something to which we believe contains him. The same is true for pledging allegiance to the ideas within the bible- because God is bigger than our ideas of him- even God breathed inspired ones.

Yea- I find the whole thing pretty idolatrous.

[Hans Deventer]

Thanks so much for the way you have said this Hans! I have read what may be this same sentiment said in very offensive ways many, many times. I can fully respect what you have said here, thank you once again!

You're very welcome!

Oh and you may want to be careful about singing of William of Orange around the Irish, they are still a little sore about that feller.

Ah, but it's not the same man! William of Orange, count of Nassau, also known as William the Silent, lived 1533-1584. He's the subject of the song. William III lived from 1650-1702. He is a descendant. The line was William of Orange (1533-1584), Frederik Hendrik of Orange (1584-1647), William II of Orange (1626-1650), William III of Orange (1650-1702). He was king of England and Scotland and Ireland besides being military commander of several of the States of the Republic of the United Netherlands.

In 1814, the Netherlands became a kingdom and the son of the last military commander, William V, was appointed king. For all clarity, he was again called William I. We've had 2 Williams since, but since 1890, we've been ruled by queens. But, when our current queen resigns, her son will ascend to the throne and he will be William IV.

Much more than you asked for, I'm sure!

BTW, as to the Irish, the interesting thing is that they STILL remember battles by King William we could not care less about.

[Hans Deventer]

Aha! Tho' off topic, have to ask: Is that why we saw all sorts of orange clothing at the Olympics in the Dutch corner?

Exactly, Gina. The House of Orange played a very important role in the 80 year liberation war against Spain and their descendants still rule the country. That's where the colour comes from.

[Ryan Scott]

Would the display of an open Bible on a table in front of the podium be idolatrous?

We do it in our congregation. I'm not that excited about it. I'd prefer we have a cross as our symbols, maybe communion elements. Not much else.

[Ryan Scott]

For it's pretty simple. The things I'm asked to do as a citizen of the US are, more often than not, contrary to the things I'm called to do as a follower of Christ. This makes it difficult to be in a worship service where both are celebrated.

One of our big issues is that many congregations have, for many years, been equating living out the gospel with being good citizens. When the Church begins blessing the State, it loses its power to speak prophetically.

[Lorie Hatcliff]

idolatry is not just about putting something above God- but also thinking God is contained by some earthly representation of him. This is why pledging your allegiance to the Bible is idolatry because it reduces God to something to which we believe contains him. The same is true for pledging allegiance to the ideas within the bible- because God is bigger than our ideas of him- even God breathed inspired ones.

Yea- I find the whole thing pretty idolatrous.

It would take a lot of mental gymnastics for me to even grasp what you are saying someone is doing when they pledge to the Bible. But if you think that pledge is reducing God to something to which we believe contains Him, then you shouldn't make that pledge. I don't even begin to think that, so I'll continue my once a year pledge to the Bible and the Christian flag.

[Lorie Hatcliff]

Good example. I didn't and don't pledge allegiance to a wedding ring.



Still not remotely good enough. I believe in God, not in the Bible. I've explained that at some length here




Lorie, I see no reason at all to use these symbols when I could pledge to the real thing. I'm happy to voice the Apostolic creed and say I believe in God. What's the flag for? Beats me.



Nobody will ask me at the gate if I believed in the Bible. They will ask me if I followed Jesus, if any question will be asked at that moment.



I would bring shivers down my spine. I could never get this out of my mouth, probably not even with a gun against my head.



I do. Very strongly.

For the record, the Dutch have no tradition of pledging allegiance to anything. I've never done that in my entire life (52 years so far). Our National Anthem has an historic content that speaks about the fight for freedom in the 16th century by William of Orange. That's what we sing and I'm happy to do that. I've only been saluting the flag when I was in the army (drafted) and I had to. That's been 30 years, haven't done it since.

It's clear that symbolism and the word allegiance mean different things to you than to me. If it is idolatrous to you, by all means, do not say them. I may never understand why, but the good news is that no one is putting a gun to your head.

[James Diggs]

It would take a lot of mental gymnastics for me to even grasp what you are saying someone is doing when they pledge to the Bible. But if you think that pledge is reducing God to something to which we believe contains Him, then you shouldn't make that pledge. I don't even begin to think that, so I'll continue my once a year pledge to the Bible and the Christian flag.

I didn't even mention the flag- as for whether it takes mental gymnastics to see that a pledge to the Bible is reducing God to something to which we believe contains Him, you were the one who explained it by saying you are really pledging yourself to what the bible contains.

NO ONE is saying you are putting any of these above God. ....In the pledge to the Bible you are pledging yourself to the ideas therein ..... I have no problems at all pledging allegiance (devotion, loyalty) to flags (for what they stand for) and the Bible (for what it contains).

God is not contained in the Bible- to pledge yourself to what the bible contains then is a pledge to an idol not God.

[Judy Hamilton]

About the only time I even remember the pledges to the Bible and Christian flag being said was during VBS programs. I think what I remember most is people mumbling because they didn't remember the words. I think if you have to go this far to find something to worry about I'd like to trade lives for a while.

Mike
You have a voice that in the light of eternity is reasonable

IN THE LIGHT OF ETERNITY DOES THIS DISCUSSION REALLY MATTER??

what does matter is allowing this to become division amongst us

we are each one followers of Christ, and also Americans, I do not embrace a division.
America has several Calendar dates we remind ourselves of the cost
of freedom and thank the military and others and families of military for their sacrifice.

Give thought to this..there may be in your congregation one youngster whose attention was
for the first time given to America and his/her thoughts dwell if but for a moment on our freedom

Europe does not embellish, celebrate history in the same venue as the United States..(different strokes)
so I dismiss Hans input as coming from a European, not wrong or right..just different

This being said..I have not experienced the Pledge of Allegiance ever being done in any church ..I would not be upset
It was just a different service..There is always next Sunday to get back to the norm..no lives were shattered,

[Tami Martin]

About the only time I even remember the pledges to the Bible and Christian flag being said was during VBS programs. I think what I remember most is people mumbling because they didn't remember the words. I think if you have to go this far to find something to worry about I'd like to trade lives for a while.

I had a genuine question. Not searching for something to "have issue with" or "worry about" - just an honest question born out of a very recent experience. Whatever troubles you are facing in your life, Mike, I am positive you would not want to trade for mine. Maybe I should just keep my questions to myself.

[Lorie Hatcliff]

I didn't even mention the flag-

I know you didn't but that's what the thread is about, so I mentioned it along with the pledge to the Bible.

as for whether it takes mental gymnastics to see that a pledge to the Bible is reducing God to something to which we believe contains Him, you were the one who explained it by saying you are really pledging yourself to what the bible contains.

Yes, that is what I believe. And what does it contain? The Good News (the Gospel).

God is not contained in the Bible- to pledge yourself to what the bible contains then is a pledge to an idol not God.

I don't know if the fact that we are not face-to-face is making this difficult to discuss, but I realize that a book is not the very being of God. But the Message that is contained therein is what one is pledging oneself to...the message contained in the book.

[James Diggs]

I had a genuine question. Not searching for something to "have issue with" or "worry about" - just an honest question born out of a very recent experience. Whatever troubles you are facing in your life, Mike, I am positive you would not want to trade for mine. Maybe I should just keep my questions to myself.

Please do not keep your questions to your self. And I mean that for everyone here. Frankly I don't understand how the notion that a discussion on a discussion forum somehow translates to "worrying" about insignificant things (not that idolatry is necessarily insignificant). I just don't understand being blasted for exploring a topic as if we can only discuss things everyone deems of grave importance.

Frankly Mike, it just seems belittling to imply that investing in this topic (or any) is a reflection of having an otherwise easy live void of "important" things to worry about. If that is the criteria for discussion on NazNet perhaps we should all log off.

[Tami Martin]

I finally finished reading through this thread and I am sick to my stomach. Thanks to all who thoughtfully replied either direction. I appreciated the knowledge and perspectives.

For those who felt the need to be offended, extend offensive comments or just be nasty to something or someone you don't agree with - THIS is why I am nearly ready to leave the faith altogether. To have a genuine question met with such vitrol is disheartening at best. I will do best to remember that this really isn't a safe place to discuss issues of faith.

As the original poster, may I request a moderator to close this discussion?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Interesting thread. For my part...

I think it's idolatry to worship anything but God. It doesn't matter whether they're worshiping these things or a tomato - it's idolatry.

If I'm in a VBS program (the only time I remember seeing all three pledges done) and see someone not participating, I don't label them unchristian. In fact, I don't think much of it at all.

At the same time, if I'm in a church where the pledges are done, I don't label those participating as idolaters. I just think that they're stating their loyalty to their nation and their faith.

Perhaps it's best to enjoy the discussion without treating it as a debate.

[Ian Gentles]

I think we should stick to gospel teaching, instruction in church

[Jim Chabot]

You're very welcome!



Ah, but it's not the same man! William of Orange, count of Nassau, also known as William the Silent, lived 1533-1584. He's the subject of the song. William III lived from 1650-1702. He is a descendant. The line was William of Orange (1533-1584), Frederik Hendrik of Orange (1584-1647), William II of Orange (1626-1650), William III of Orange (1650-1702). He was king of England and Scotland and Ireland besides being military commander of several of the States of the Republic of the United Netherlands.

In 1814, the Netherlands became a kingdom and the son of the last military commander, William V, was appointed king. For all clarity, he was again called William I. We've had 2 Williams since, but since 1890, we've been ruled by queens. But, when our current queen resigns, her son will ascend to the throne and he will be William IV.

Much more than you asked for, I'm sure!

BTW, as to the Irish, the interesting thing is that they STILL remember battles by King William we could not care less about.

Ah, and now I have learned something as well! Thank you for your explanation, I truly did not know that there were so many Williams.

I do hope that I have your Queens name correct as Beatrix and her birthday as January 31. This matters to me because I have been a drag racing fan for many years. The Island of Aruba, has a drag strip where they hold races once a year, on the Queens birthday. I've only been able to be there at the right time once.

[Hans Deventer]

I do hope that I have your Queens name correct as Beatrix and her birthday as January 31.

Yes you do! This is her:

[James Diggs]

If I'm in a VBS program (the only time I remember seeing all three pledges done) and see someone not participating, I don't label them unchristian. In fact, I don't think much of it at all.

At the same time, if I'm in a church where the pledges are done, I don't label those participating as idolaters.

Are we allowed to bring the topic up and question idolatry without thinking anyone is getting labeled??? I don't understand what is so offensive by exploring the question? (Scott I am not saying you were offended, but it seems you have tapped into the feeling by some that they are being labeled as "non Christians" or "idolaters".)

Maybe we need to better understand that it isn't so absolute of an either/or of being either a "Christians" or an "idolater". Maybe it is just a matter of understanding how easy it is, even with the best intentions, to lean into idolatry to some degree or another. Maybe we need to not be afraid of a life of confession where we regularly confess that we often worship our ideas and concepts about God rather God himself and in that very confession continually free ourselves of our idolatry through embracing God's grace.

This is a topic that needs explored all the time- these questions need to be regularly asked- and we need to confess and be delivered on a regular basis because turning our ideas about God into an idol of God is far too easy to do even for the most devoted follower of Jesus.

I like C.S. Lewis poem called "Footnote to all Prayers" where he essentially calls all worship idolatry and all prayers blasphemy without God's grace as he compares even our best and most inspired ideas about God to "Pheidian fancies".

Footnote to all Prayers by C.S. Lewis

He whom I bow to only knows to whom I bow
When I attempt the ineffable Name, murmuring Thou,
And dream of Pheidian fancies and embrace in heart
Symbols (I know) which cannot be the thing Thou art.
Thus always, taken at their word, all prayers blaspheme
Worshiping with frail images a folk-lore dream,
And all men in their praying, self-deceived, address
The coinage of their own unquiet thoughts, unless
Thou in magnetic mercy to Thyself divert
Our arrows, aimed unskillfully, beyond desert;
And all men are idolaters, crying unheard
To a deaf idol, if Thou take them at their word.

Take not, O Lord, our literal sense. Lord, in thy great
Unbroken speech our limping metaphor translate.

[Shea Zellweger]

Are we allowed to bring the topic up and question idolatry without thinking anyone is getting labeled??? I don't understand what is so offensive by exploring the question? (Scott I am not saying you were offended, but it seems you have tapped into the feeling by some that they are being labeled as "non Christians" or "idolaters".)

Maybe we need to better understand that it isn't so absolute either or of being either a "Christians" or an "idolater". Maybe it is just a matter of understanding how easy it is, even with the best intentions, to lean into idolatry to some degree or another. Maybe we need to not be afraid of a life of confession where we regularly confess that we often worship our ideas and concepts about God rather God himself and in that very confession continually free ourselves of our idolatry through embracing God's grace.

This is a topic that needs explored all the time- these questions need to be regularly asked- and we need to confess and be delivered on a regular basis because turning our ideas about God into an idol of God is far too easy to do even for the most devoted follower of Jesus.

I like C.S. Lewis poem called "Footnote to all Prayers" where he essentially calls all worship idolatry and all prayers blaspheme as he compares even our best and most inspired ideas about God to "Pheidian fancies".

I see what you're saying here, James, but as one who's got some pretty strong convictions in this area I don't know how to express my views in such a way to stop the offense. To me, this is not a Romans 14 issue- no one can serve two masters, and by pledging one's liege to a country, let alone its flag, he or she is doing just that. Is it possible that this comes from a differing understanding of what "Allegiance" is? I suppose, but the most literal, simple understanding of the word is a pledge of loyalty to a sovereign entity, be that an individual, group, or governing body. By pledging loyalty to my wife (to use a previously provided analogy), I am declaring that I will be faithful to her, forsaking all others. Same goes for pledging allegiance to a specific country- it is a declaration of loyalty to a country- "to the republic for which it stands," as the pledge itself specifies. There are clear differences between what God expects of us and what the government requires of us. I can only be categorically loyal to God or government, unless I believe that the government is unilaterally doing the work of- and serving as the voice of- God. Since none here believe this to be true of the government (in fact, many who are proud to pledge allegiance are also among the quickest to find fault with government activities), I am having difficulty understanding what this pledge of allegiance really means to them. However, if it means what the term "allegiance" really means, then it is agreeing in advance to forsake God in favor of country/government should that choice ever arise.

[James Diggs]

I see what you're saying here, James, but as one who's got some pretty strong convictions in this area I don't know how to express my views in such a way to stop the offense. To me, this is not a Romans 14 issue- no one can serve two masters, and by pledging one's liege to a country, let alone its flag, he or she is doing just that.

I wasn't even thinking about pledging our allegiance to the flag when I wrote my response- I was primarily thinking about pledging our allegiance to the bible (which I believe is leaning well into idolatry). I hear and resonate what you are saying about this other stuff- I wasn't even really addressing it.

[Shea Zellweger]

I wasn't even thinking about pledging our allegiance to the flag when I wrote my response- I was primarily thinking about pledging our allegiance to the bible (which I believe is leaning well into idolatry). I hear and resonate what you are saying about this other stuff- I wasn't even really addressing it.

The whole thing was presented part and parcel in the initial question, so I guess I figured that's what you were addressing since you didn't address otherwise. I guess Lewis' footnote has nothing to do with the American flag though.

As far as the Bible Goes, I think it was a good analogy previously used on this thread that the Bible could be viewed in a manner similar to a wedding ring (or as I suggested, a love letter). It does indeed contain the will and words of God, and in a manner of speaking it is God's most concrete representative on Earth (though we are called to be living epistles, that's a discussion for another time). However, it is still not God. Although it does not stand in opposition to God, it still does not rise to the level of God, and so pledging oneself to it rather than to God (or in addition to God) would be akin to pledging fidelity to one's wedding ring, or a particularly moving love letter, in addition to one's spouse.