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Thread: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

  1. #201
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    You'll have to explain to me how giving more to WEF results in giving less to WEF.

    Or are you saying that giving to "missions" outside of WEF lowers our reported income that goes into the formula? If so, that's news to me.

    Edited to add: And I learned something new! Or was reminded or something I'd forgotten. Details here: http://fundingthemission.org/Track-G...Offerings.html

    And now you all can tell that we really don't do offerings for "mission specials" at our church.

    I think you picked it up with the edit there - but a lot of congregations support local and district projects that are 10% specials and exempt from the formula. I suspect money a local congregation in Africa raises to support it's child development center is similarly exempt. Districts and regions have the authority to approve such projects and many of them are quite creative. On many districts, if a congregation is regularly giving to a church plant, that money is exempted from WEF figures.

    If the district approves, technically all a congregation needs to figure into WEF payments is money for staff, buildings, and curriculum. Outreach is a grey area, obviously, but there are certainly plenty of things (food pantries and other ministries to the poor) that would be easy sells for 10% recognition. If you wanted to play the numbers game.
    ...just my $.02.

  2. #202
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I think you picked it up with the edit there - but a lot of congregations support local and district projects that are 10% specials and exempt from the formula. I suspect money a local congregation in Africa raises to support it's child development center is similarly exempt. Districts and regions have the authority to approve such projects and many of them are quite creative. On many districts, if a congregation is regularly giving to a church plant, that money is exempted from WEF figures.

    If the district approves, technically all a congregation needs to figure into WEF payments is money for staff, buildings, and curriculum. Outreach is a grey area, obviously, but there are certainly plenty of things (food pantries and other ministries to the poor) that would be easy sells for 10% recognition. If you wanted to play the numbers game.
    Its not a 1 for 1. 10% offerings reduce your WEF base but they do not count towards WEF. Paying directly to WEF reduces your base AND contributes to your WEF budget. This is why, to find your WEF budget, you multiply your offerings by 5.221% and not 5.5%.
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  3. #203
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

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    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Twitchell View Post
    And I think it's unlikely that we will see any change. Even though the Assembly adopted a resolution, it was a resolution to study and to report at the 2015 GB meeting. I suspect that the study will show that we should not make any changes to the formula.
    The author of 600 and 601 said in the committee meeting that they only put forth the resolution of the "study" in case it was required, but they really didn't want it to pass, because they knew it meant no effective change would happen.

    At this point I could live with Craig's idea of a 10% cap for all apportionments. In fact I'd be happy to just send it all to Lenexa and let them distribute it to the other entities as they see fit. That way it would be fair from district to district.

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    Senior Member Jon Twitchell's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by David Pettigrew View Post

    At this point I could live with Craig's idea of a 10% cap for all apportionments. In fact I'd be happy to just send it all to Lenexa and let them distribute it to the other entities as they see fit. That way it would be fair from district to district.
    I could be on board with this.

    I could also be on board with a cap on district allocations... and if you can't make it work within that level, then you have to make tough choices. And if that means you downgrade a phase, or apply for missionary support from the denomination, then so be it.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Twitchell View Post
    I could be on board with this.

    I could also be on board with a cap on district allocations... and if you can't make it work within that level, then you have to make tough choices. And if that means you downgrade a phase, or apply for missionary support from the denomination, then so be it.
    Yep, I've come to believe that our district structure is one of our problems. We just can't afford it the way it is. Only the biggest districts are making it financially. (10% for the district is not making it)
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    The way our district works is that each congregation sends 10% to the district office, which then allocates P&B and Education payments. Each congregation is on their own for paying (or not paying) WEF.

    They're basically equating the 10% as a tithe for the purposes of the district (paying salaries, contributing to the school, running the district) and the WEF as analogous to faith promise - something you give for global mission beyond the tithe.

    This seems like the easiest sell. Doing 10% to HQ and then a district payment on top is a much tougher sell.
    ...just my $.02.

  8. #208
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    The way our district works is that each congregation sends 10% to the district office, which then allocates P&B and Education payments. Each congregation is on their own for paying (or not paying) WEF.
    You don't know what P&B and EDU is until you pay what you are going to pay on WEF. The above formula looks like the district withhold is 6.5% which is on the high side for districts. South Florida and TN are at 4% unified. SO far I think that is a pretty good target. I found one district that is at 3.5% but I do not remember them at the moment. I was in the SF assembly when they announced their allocation reduction to help the struggling Church. I would bet that they had a high percentage of district budgets paid in full this year because of that gesture.

    Of course it all depends on giving patterns in the district. If the givers think the percentage is appropriate, it will work, if not, then it doesn't matter what percentage you put up there for your allocation.
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    You don't know what P&B and EDU is until you pay what you are going to pay on WEF. The above formula looks like the district withhold is 6.5% which is on the high side for districts. South Florida and TN are at 4% unified. SO far I think that is a pretty good target. I found one district that is at 3.5% but I do not remember them at the moment. I was in the SF assembly when they announced their allocation reduction to help the struggling Church. I would bet that they had a high percentage of district budgets paid in full this year because of that gesture.

    Of course it all depends on giving patterns in the district. If the givers think the percentage is appropriate, it will work, if not, then it doesn't matter what percentage you put up there for your allocation.
    I'm pretty sure our district is 5.5%. From what I've heard, that's pretty standard. That's the thing, our district has basically disconnected the P&B and Education payments from WEF. The district office handles disbursement on those. The way they bill it is "just cut a check fro 10% of the offering each Monday morning and send it to the district office; we'll take care of the rest." Nice and simple.

    Philly is the lowest, I think - like 3% or 3.25%.
    ...just my $.02.

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I'm pretty sure our district is 5.5%. From what I've heard, that's pretty standard. That's the thing, our district has basically disconnected the P&B and Education payments from WEF. The district office handles disbursement on those. The way they bill it is "just cut a check fro 10% of the offering each Monday morning and send it to the district office; we'll take care of the rest." Nice and simple.

    Philly is the lowest, I think - like 3% or 3.25%.
    Yep. I broke my own rule, never do math in public. 5.5% is what it looks like to me.
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    Senior Member Mike Schutz's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    Philly is the lowest, I think - like 3% or 3.25%.
    However, Philly still bases district allocation on previous year income. Doesn't change that it is still very low.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I'm pretty sure our district is 5.5%. From what I've heard, that's pretty standard. That's the thing, our district has basically disconnected the P&B and Education payments from WEF. The district office handles disbursement on those. The way they bill it is "just cut a check fro 10% of the offering each Monday morning and send it to the district office; we'll take care of the rest." Nice and simple.

    Philly is the lowest, I think - like 3% or 3.25%.
    I would really struggle with this because it seems to prioritize administration over mission. WAPAC is at something like 3%? This is livable.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Yep. I broke my own rule, never do math in public.
    Another rule I need to add to my personal list.
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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Okay DS lurkers (all one of you) listen closely:

    Praise in public, chastise in private.

    You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

    Celebrate the sucesses. look to the failures as opportunities.

    Do DS's go to a special school to learn how to belittle struggling churches at DA? Is there some special strategy to berating an audience that likely contains the majority of your faithful givers? What do you hope to gain? Compliance? More budgets paid in full? Not a chance!

    I spent the last three months encouraging my peers and convincing them that they are actually capable of paying budgets in full. It took less than 3 minutes for the DS to undo my efforts! I have to start all over, further behind than I was when I started I hate that! If you are not going to be helpful then be quiet, please.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Okay DS lurkers (all one of you) listen closely:

    Praise in public, chastise in private.

    You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

    Celebrate the sucesses. look to the failures as opportunities.

    Do DS's go to a special school to learn how to belittle struggling churches at DA? Is there some special strategy to berating an audience that likely contains the majority of your faithful givers? What do you hope to gain? Compliance? More budgets paid in full? Not a chance!

    I spent the last three months encouraging my peers and convincing them that they are actually capable of paying budgets in full. It took less than 3 minutes for the DS to undo my efforts! I have to start all over, further behind than I was when I started I hate that! If you are not going to be helpful then be quiet, please.
    So Sorry Dan. - This would drive me crazy and might spark a confrontation. - I think I have been blessed. I served on the church board as a laymen of several Nazarene churches on three different district and I've served as pastor of two churches on two different districts for a total of 7 different DS's and this has never happened to me. They have all been supportive and encouraging, never belittling. - I hope and pray my experience not yours is the norm.
    Last edited by Craig Laughlin; July 11th, 2013 at 04:21 PM.
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  16. #216
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    I hope and pray my experience not yours is the norm.
    Me too. I have only observed it on this district and it seems to be a deep south norm. I hope its not anywhere else. As I alluded before, I have yet to meet a board that does not want to pay budgets. They already arrive at the assemblies ashamed and self-belittled. If I am the only person with a positive voice for these people, I will not likely succeed.

    Being a statistics person, I used the top 100 chart and some data from the US census. We have three churches on that top 100 list and this small church, per capita, outgives two of those three churches by a wide margin. I figured that on average over the last three years they have given about 8% of their available income. Knowing what we know about churches, some are giving nothing and there are some sacrificial givers in that mix. Even more, what it tells me is that there is a higher than average group of faithful givers that don't mis the opportunity to give. I've spent a lot of hours developing ways to show them that they can ...

    I even addressed a concern that they thought was a problem by re-negotiating the interest rate on their mortgage.

    I don't like my time being wasted and I really dislike starting over. As I write, I realize this is a selfish post. Its not supposed to be about me, but I guess this one is.
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    I would really struggle with this because it seems to prioritize administration over mission. WAPAC is at something like 3%? This is livable.
    It's what we do in our local congregations - or at least what we've traditionally done. A tithe to the local congregation to support the efforts of the congregation (which, in most places is 50% - 70% for buildings and staff), then a faith promise pledge on top of that for mission work around the world.

    That's the way giving has been presented my whole life in the Church of the Nazarene. I'm not sure why we wouldn't do the same thing on a general level.

    Now, if we want to change the system overall and present our giving differently, by all means, let's try it. I just appreciate the consistency.
    ...just my $.02.

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    Senior Member Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Dan, the only way not to become discouraged is to realize Who you are working for time and time again. If it depends on people, I'd have given up years ago.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Me too. I have only observed it on this district and it seems to be a deep south norm. I hope its not anywhere else. As I alluded before, I have yet to meet a board that does not want to pay budgets. They already arrive at the assemblies ashamed and self-belittled. If I am the only person with a positive voice for these people, I will not likely succeed.

    Being a statistics person, I used the top 100 chart and some data from the US census. We have three churches on that top 100 list and this small church, per capita, outgives two of those three churches by a wide margin. I figured that on average over the last three years they have given about 8% of their available income. Knowing what we know about churches, some are giving nothing and there are some sacrificial givers in that mix. Even more, what it tells me is that there is a higher than average group of faithful givers that don't mis the opportunity to give. I've spent a lot of hours developing ways to show them that they can ...

    I even addressed a concern that they thought was a problem by re-negotiating the interest rate on their mortgage.

    I don't like my time being wasted and I really dislike starting over. As I write, I realize this is a selfish post. Its not supposed to be about me, but I guess this one is.
    Negative motivation only works in the short term and often does as much damage as good. (We pay out of guilt and shame this year but in the following years we have a bad attitude and negative motivation no longer works) - Positive motivation is slower to start up but is much more effective over the long term.

    I love your per capita giving example. - In my first church my first year they were in great danger of not paying budgets. They were very discouraged. I did what you did, I looked at percapita giving and we were way ahead of some of the "big name" churches on our district. (And this was the KC district so a lot of big names.) In fact if our budgets had been the same percentage as some of those churches we would have been paid in full... but we won't go there.

    I celebrated this number for a long time and in lots of ways. If your church gets to 10% I suggest a big - "We Tithe as a church!" party. Praise them for what you want them to be until they become it. - Or as my DS says - Hold a crown over their head until they grow into it. - I love that picture.
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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    I celebrated this number for a long time and in lots of ways. If your church gets to 10% I suggest a big - "We Tithe as a church!" party. Praise them for what you want them to be until they become it. - Or as my DS says - Hold a crown over their head until they grow into it. - I love that picture.
    I like! They got to 8.8% last year and paid P&B and EDU in full. And it was their highest ever. Their reward will be a"No" posted in the Budgets paid column in the district journal.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    I would also point out the percent change in giving. If they went from 8 to 8 .8 percent that's a ten percent increase probably much better than those big chuches.
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    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    It's what we do in our local congregations - or at least what we've traditionally done. A tithe to the local congregation to support the efforts of the congregation (which, in most places is 50% - 70% for buildings and staff), then a faith promise pledge on top of that for mission work around the world.

    That's the way giving has been presented my whole life in the Church of the Nazarene. I'm not sure why we wouldn't do the same thing on a general level.

    Now, if we want to change the system overall and present our giving differently, by all means, let's try it. I just appreciate the consistency.
    And to show that everyone's context is different...

    We don't do Faith Promise at all at our church. I don't remember if it was done when I was growing up (I'd have to ask my dad, since he was my pastor), but if it was, I don't remember and didn't participate in it.

    For all the folks whose experience of "Nazarene" is being shaped by the church I've pastored for 13 years now, missions giving comes right out of our regular tithes and offerings. It's important to us as a church, and so we plan for it and incorporate it into our budget.

    That's been made much easier since the change to the new system. Under the old system we occasionally did special offerings for missions at Christmas or Easter. Now we're much more likely to focus those special offerings on some kind of project... like the local Christian food pantry, or clean water wells in another country. Missions? That's a regular part of our budget.

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    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Okay DS lurkers (all one of you) listen closely:

    Praise in public, chastise in private.
    I trust you followed your own advice and chastised him privately before chastising him here?

    BTW, sorry for your frustrating DA experience. I empathize... though we don't share your experience here.

  24. #224
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    I trust you followed your own advice and chastised him privately before chastising him here?

    BTW, sorry for your frustrating DA experience. I empathize... though we don't share your experience here.
    No because I wasn't chastising him, he is good people. That was a, please don't become one of those!
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    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    No because I wasn't chastising him, he is good people. That was a, please don't become one of those!
    Ah. The way I'd read your post was that your DS was already "one of those" who chastises in public ("berating an audience," etc), and you were venting here about his disappointing behavior. Looking back... I'm still not sure how to read it as anything else...?

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Ah. The way I'd read your post was that your DS was already "one of those" who chastises in public ("berating an audience," etc), and you were venting here about his disappointing behavior. Looking back... I'm still not sure how to read it as anything else...?
    You are most likely right to read it the way you did. I wrote it wrong.
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    You are most likely right to read it the way you did. I wrote it wrong.
    Catch it before 24 hours is up and you can use the "Edit" feature!

    Oops! Nevermind, as I just saw the date/time on your last post. Perhaps, tho', the moderator could post your edit for you. (I read it the way Rich tho't it read, too)
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Okay DS lurkers (all one of you) listen closely:

    Praise in public, chastise in private.

    You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

    Celebrate the sucesses. look to the failures as opportunities.

    Do DS's go to a special school to learn how to belittle struggling churches at DA? Is there some special strategy to berating an audience that likely contains the majority of your faithful givers? What do you hope to gain? Compliance? More budgets paid in full? Not a chance!

    I spent the last three months encouraging my peers and convincing them that they are actually capable of paying budgets in full. It took less than 3 minutes for the DS to undo my efforts! I have to start all over, further behind than I was when I started I hate that! If you are not going to be helpful then be quiet, please.
    What is the suggestion for GS's who use DA as an opportunity to ask pastors of churches who aren't paying budgets in full to "seriously consider their relationship to the denomination" and tell them that they "aren't a pastor they are just a preacher" all while reminding them that when they were ordained they made a commitment to pay their budgets in full?

    Or, what is the suggestion for the DS who has all of the pastors whose church paid in full stand and come to the front where they were rewarded with tickets to a Cubs game while their colleagues sat ashamedly in the same room?

    The whole thing can sometimes feel like a multi-level marketing scheme.

  29. #229
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Houston Thomas View Post
    What is the suggestion for GS's who use DA as an opportunity to ask pastors of churches who aren't paying budgets in full to "seriously consider their relationship to the denomination" and tell them that they "aren't a pastor they are just a preacher" all while reminding them that when they were ordained they made a commitment to pay their budgets in full?

    Or, what is the suggestion for the DS who has all of the pastors whose church paid in full stand and come to the front where they were rewarded with tickets to a Cubs game while their colleagues sat ashamedly in the same room?
    PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS A JOKE AND DID NOT HAPPEN!
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  30. #230
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Petry View Post
    PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS A JOKE AND DID NOT HAPPEN!
    I've seen this type of incedent happen so many times in the last 40 years that for me its a Southern Staple as common as Sweet Tea.

    After my DS wonderful Sermon/DS report on Wed, I thought this type of abuse had finally see its day. But alas, true to form on Thursday. Took him less than 3 minutes to wipe his Wed sermon from my mind.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  31. #231
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Houston Thomas View Post
    What is the suggestion for GS's who use DA as an opportunity to ask pastors of churches who aren't paying budgets in full to "seriously consider their relationship to the denomination" and tell them that they "aren't a pastor they are just a preacher" all while reminding them that when they were ordained they made a commitment to pay their budgets in full?

    Or, what is the suggestion for the DS who has all of the pastors whose church paid in full stand and come to the front where they were rewarded with tickets to a Cubs game while their colleagues sat ashamedly in the same room?

    The whole thing can sometimes feel like a multi-level marketing scheme.
    Wait... pastors on your district get Cubs tickets for paying in full? I need to send this idea to my DS!

    We've had a GS say those things at our last two district assemblies... and I know at least one of my pastor friends was hurt by the comments... but, in my opinion, he needed to be. (He and I have talked about this already.) I think it's right for that challenge to be laid in front of us, boldly and clearly. We are a connectional church. We're in this together. We're not independent churches who give what we want or what's convenient to our combined mission efforts.

    Now, before my pride balloon gets too big... I wish we would do something similar with baptisms, new believers, disciples, etc. The church I pastor has been paying our budgets in full for several years now, and I think I'm right to feel good about that. But we've not been making new disciples, and I think I should feel ashamed of that. That is a failure on our part... which is a failure on my part, as the pastor leading this church. It should be made clear that if we aren't making disciples, we're not being true to our ordination vows and what it means to be a Church of the Nazarene, etc, etc.

    BTW, as I've shared before, our previous DS challenged me (privately) the one year that it was clear we weren't going to be able to pay our budgets in full. I think I approached him about it first, to let him know that, due to our declining attendance and giving, and the old system's basing it on the prior (good) year's numbers, we weren't going to come close to hitting the 20% target set for us... so we were moving the target to 10%, which we felt we could realistically hit, even though it would be a massive stretch. He reminded me that, according to the Manual, we shouldn't be allowed to keep our two part-time staff people if we weren't going to pay our budgets in full. I pleaded our case, and he understood. (I think our being a newly-organized church had something to do with it.) We kept our staff and hit our lowered target... and from that point on, we've paid our budgets in full every year.

  32. #232
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    We've had a GS say those things at our last two district assemblies... and I know at least one of my pastor friends was hurt by the comments... but, in my opinion, he needed to be.
    First, you pastors are still under the impression that you actually control whether or not budgets are paid. Let me go ahead and burst your bubble. You don't! You have some influence, but you don't have control.

    Second, I would say he deserved it only if his failure to pay is willful. That is the pastor, themselves, willfully caused the budget to not be paid.

    Thirdly (and last), my focus on this conversation is how it affects the cheerful giver, the one who wants to pay their allocations in full. I worry about how they feel.

    Do they believe they are unable to pay? In this case they are the weaker brother. We have a prescription for that and guess what? Its not public embarrasment.

    Are they actually unable to pay? We have a prescription for that too and guess what? ...

    As for not being able to keep staff if you don't pay budgets: "How exactly does that help a struggling church? Here's my view. It doesn't! It stunts potential growth and the potential for future budget payments.
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  33. #233
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    First, you pastors are still under the impression that you actually control whether or not budgets are paid. Let me go ahead and burst your bubble. You don't! You have some influence, but you don't have control.
    I know I don't control it. Never said I did. No bubble to be burst.

    But the church looks to me for leadership. If I don't lead well in this area, that responsibility is on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Second, I would say he deserved it only if his failure to pay is willful. That is the pastor, themselves, willfully caused the budget to not be paid.
    Again, leadership. (And knowing a lot more about the circumstances than you do.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Thirdly (and last), my focus on this conversation is how it affects the cheerful giver, the one who wants to pay their allocations in full. I worry about how they feel.
    I'm glad that's your focus. I appreciate you raising that issue and making sure we think about how these things affect them.

    My concern is the pastors, which is why I responded to that post about pastors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    As for not being able to keep staff if you don't pay budgets: "How exactly does that help a struggling church? Here's my view. It doesn't! It stunts potential growth and the potential for future budget payments.
    Sure. I see it more as a stick that needs to be wielded from time to time in order to motivate pastors to do what they should be doing already: lead. It certainly helped motivate me. Even though, as you may have noticed from my tale, the stick wasn't actually used. Now, if I'd not paid budgets in full the next year, when our circumstances had clearly changed (no more inflated budget numbers due to a great previous year)... who knows if the stick would have been wielded. The warning was enough for me to realize how serious an issue this is.

  34. #234
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    I'm never in favor of publicly shaming people. If a pastor deliberately chooses to not pay budgets that needs to be dealt with in private between the DS or the GS and the pastor. If they still refuse to make an effort to do so, then I think it's legitimate to talk about removing the credential. Just talk to the pastor first then talk to the board about what's going on. We don't need to shame people and it doesn't work anyway.

    I'm all for challenging us and I think including baptisms and conversions and discipleship should be included in that as well. In fact a part of what makes us look bad is that we are only challenged on the money part.

    Edit. Praise in public, correct in private.
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  35. #235
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Rich,

    We are not that different in view on this topic. Mine is from a lay perspective yours from an elder. And I agree 100% that leadership is key. Yet, there is no leadership theory taught in your coursework. How is it we expect you to be mature leaders with no training? Where we differ is that I believe that leadership needs to be developed. When the GS lays hands on you, you are granted grace not a mature leadership persona. I think we have come a long way with established mentoring, continuing education and other efforts on the district. Just as it is the elder's job to equip us, I believe the primary mission of the district is to equip the elders. We are getting better at this, but there is still much to do.

    You might have noticed that I tend to be a protector. This is especially true of pastor's when I accept a leadership role in the church they lead. This is the most abused group of people in the church IMO. For me to take a role on a board is to take the role of the pastor's shield whether they think they need it or not. Its either an attribute or a flaw. Either way, its what I do.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Wait... pastors on your district get Cubs tickets for paying in full? I need to send this idea to my DS!

    We've had a GS say those things at our last two district assemblies... and I know at least one of my pastor friends was hurt by the comments... but, in my opinion, he needed to be. (He and I have talked about this already.) I think it's right for that challenge to be laid in front of us, boldly and clearly. We are a connectional church. We're in this together. We're not independent churches who give what we want or what's convenient to our combined mission efforts.

    Now, before my pride balloon gets too big... I wish we would do something similar with baptisms, new believers, disciples, etc. The church I pastor has been paying our budgets in full for several years now, and I think I'm right to feel good about that. But we've not been making new disciples, and I think I should feel ashamed of that. That is a failure on our part... which is a failure on my part, as the pastor leading this church. It should be made clear that if we aren't making disciples, we're not being true to our ordination vows and what it means to be a Church of the Nazarene, etc, etc.
    This illustrates what I think is a problem and why I wanted change to the budget structure.

    The current structure rewards mediocrity. Let's use your district as an example. Several churches on your district are growing numerically, baptizing new believers, and, my guess is, have to structure themselves with staff and a facility to facilitate that growth. My assumption is that their decisions to structure themselves in such a way has helped their growth. It has also limited their ability to fulfill their budget obligations (under the new system).

    They show up to District Assembly and what is celebrated and rewarded? What is scolded? If I was them, I would feel as if the denomination was happier when they were a church of 500 and fully paying their budgets of $35,000 than being a church of 1500 and paying $150,000 to budgets but not fully paying them.

    In other words, I would feel as if the message from leadership is that it is better to be mediocre.

    I know the old system had flaws. Lots of flaws. But at least it didn't hinder churches that were trying to structure themselves to become better.
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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Petry View Post
    PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS A JOKE AND DID NOT HAPPEN!
    Wish I could.

    If I was there and was one of the "winning" pastors who received tickets I would make sure to invite a "loser" and post all kinds of facebook photos of us enjoying the game.

  38. #238
    Senior Member Dwayne Petry's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Houston Thomas View Post
    Wish I could.

    If I was there and was one of the "winning" pastors who received tickets I would make sure to invite a "loser" and post all kinds of facebook photos of us enjoying the game.
    Whose money did he use to buy Cubs tickets?

    If it was District money - unethical use of God's money!

    If it was his - he is paid to much!
    My Prayer: Father, use me until I am used up, then call me home and may I hear "well done good and faithful servant". Amen.

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    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    So, I'm in the beginning stages of a capital campaign at my church and so I've been thinking about this topic a lot.

    A few questions come to mind:

    1. To what extent is the purpose of the district and general church to serve the local church? If the district and general church exist to serve the local church and facilitate the mission of the local church then anything the district and general church does to stymy the local church is counter-mission.
    2. Where does the idea of the local church owing a tithe come from?
    3. What about a compromise where a local church could receive a capital campaign exemption once every 10 years?
    4. It is unethical to use designated funds for purposes other than they have been designated. So what if a very large amount comes in for the capital campaign and there is simply not enough in the general funds to cover the allocations? That seems to be a case of "success" creating "failure" (success in capital campaign fundraising leading to a failure to be able to pay allocations).
    5. Does anyone in church leadership understand the concept of morale and do they see how not exempting capital campaign funds could be a big deterrent to morale? Imagine the following conversation (with the pastor trying valiantly to toe the party line):

    Pastor - Hey, let's celebrate, we raised a bucket load of money for our renovations.
    Board - Yippie! Let's get to work fixing the joint up!
    Pastor - Well, we can't actually do the renovations yet because we need to send more money to our regional university and we don't have it, so we'll have to borrow some from the money we raised for the renovations to pay the allocations on the money we raised for the renovations.
    Board - Didn't they just build a new $25 million chapel at the University?
    Pastor - Yes, well I know they just built a new $25 million chapel and a $10 million student center but they need it more than us. Sorry. I hope it's not too much of a bummer for you that your sacrifice will not come to fruition here locally but remember God is happy for your giving to others... We're a connectional church after all. Oh and we have to send money off to Lenexa too.
    Board - Have you seen the GMC? Why are they working in a state of the art office building while our pastor works in a drafty room that leaks during heavy storm - it just doesn't feel right that we're not taking better care of our pastor's work needs?
    Pastor - Yes, well, I know that the GMC is a much nicer facility than what we have but it's YOUR GMC and it's MY GMC - Don't worry we'll just delay our building renovations by a year or three so that we can raise enough to pay the allocations on the renovations costs.
    Board - Lame.
    (...and with that the morale of the leadership is sufficiently squashed).

    Just wondering.
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  40. #240
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    So, I'm in the beginning stages of a capital campaign at my church and so I've been thinking about this topic a lot.
    Me, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    A few questions come to mind:

    1. To what extent is the purpose of the district and general church to serve the local church? If the district and general church exist to serve the local church and facilitate the mission of the local church then anything the district and general church does to stymy the local church is counter-mission.
    I think it's better to think of the district and general church as expressions of the broader (ie, non-local) mission of the local church. Yes, part of their function is to also serve local churches. And maybe that's even the primary function at the district level. But generally speaking, I prefer to think of them in terms of mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    2. Where does the idea of the local church owing a tithe come from?
    Well, we had to have some sort of formula. The old one was broken. The tithe model is better (in my opinion and my church board's opinion).

    But I don't think "owe" is the best word/concept for it... Just like I don't teach that Christians "owe" a tithe to the local church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    3. What about a compromise where a local church could receive a capital campaign exemption once every 10 years?
    I'm listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    4. It is unethical to use designated funds for purposes other than they have been designated. So what if a very large amount comes in for the capital campaign and there is simply not enough in the general funds to cover the allocations? That seems to be a case of "success" creating "failure" (success in capital campaign fundraising leading to a failure to be able to pay allocations).
    Yep. And if we get stuck in that way... I might just have to be ok with that failure. I have the feeling that for most of our folks here, the success would pretty easily eclipse the failure.

    I don't want to end up there. But if I do, that realization makes me not worry about anyone's morale but my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    5. Does anyone in church leadership understand the concept of morale and do they see how not exempting capital campaign funds could be a big deterrent to morale? Imagine the following conversation (with the pastor trying valiantly to toe the party line):

    Pastor - Hey, let's celebrate, we raised a bucket load of money for our renovations.
    Board - Yippie! Let's get to work fixing the joint up!
    Pastor - Well, we can't actually do the renovations yet because we need to send more money to our regional university and we don't have it, so we'll have to borrow some from the money we raised for the renovations to pay the allocations on the money we raised for the renovations.
    Board - Didn't they just build a new $25 million chapel at the University?
    Pastor - Yes, well I know they just built a new $25 million chapel and a $10 million student center but they need it more than us. Sorry. I hope it's not too much of a bummer for you that your sacrifice will not come to fruition here locally but remember God is happy for your giving to others... We're a connectional church after all. Oh and we have to send money off to Lenexa too.
    Board - Have you seen the GMC? Why are they working in a state of the art office building while our pastor works in a drafty room that leaks during heavy storm - it just doesn't feel right that we're not taking better care of our pastor's work needs?
    Pastor - Yes, well, I know that the GMC is a much nicer facility than what we have but it's YOUR GMC and it's MY GMC - Don't worry we'll just delay our building renovations by a year or three so that we can raise enough to pay the allocations on the renovations costs.
    Board - Lame.
    (...and with that the morale of the leadership is sufficiently squashed).

    Just wondering.
    In that case, I think we would probably move ahead on the renovations and try to catch up on the missions giving.

    Or (my strong preference), we'll be celebrating missions giving right along with building giving, so that they're one big goal. This means no premature excitement if we give just enough for the building part, because that's not the goal. It wouldn't even be presented that way.
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  41. #241
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    Pastor - Well, we can't actually do the renovations yet because we need to send more money to our regional university and we don't have it, so we'll have to borrow some from the money we raised for the renovations to pay the allocations on the money we raised for the renovations.
    Board - Didn't they just build a new $25 million chapel at the University?
    Pastor - Yes, well I know they just built a new $25 million chapel and a $10 million student center but they need it more than us.
    I wonder if this perspective isn't part of the issue. My connection to budgets is primarily ENC - an institution that's been an integral part of my life and family for longer than I've been alive. It's also tiny and perpetually struggling. I don't think they've built a building in 35 years. There's a general and universal sense that they really do need our money.

    I can imagine those congregations on a region where schools have been really successful with fundraising could feel differently.
    ...just my $.02.
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  42. #242
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: SF-601 Budget Exemption: Capital Stewardship Campaigns

    Manual Paragraph 38.1, Storehouse Tithing is an integral part of our constitution. It sets the only appropriate priority for local church spending. Any DS or district board who tells you otherwise is failing to support our core constitution. Additionally, any allocations outside local church are appropriately called "requests." They are not obligations. They are not "fair shares." They are "requests." Though the general church understands this concept, at least in their written documents, many districts do not seem to understand this concept. If you have any questions, refer to 38.1 for a clearly articulated priority.

    To see an example of how the general church refers to budget requests: http://nazarene.org/ministries/super...9/display.html.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

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