With the first post of the new era in NazNet, I wanted to show some love to my team the Indianapolis Colts, the greatest team with the greatest (ever) quarterback.
With the first post of the new era in NazNet, I wanted to show some love to my team the Indianapolis Colts, the greatest team with the greatest (ever) quarterback.
I'm very tempted to give you some negative reputation points for this, but that doesn't seem like the right foot on which to start out.
...just my $.02.
Idunno, I think that new Redskins' QB might just show how great he really is.
OK, I will.Originally Posted by Ryan Scott
Please. Wouldn't the best QB ever have more than one ring which was won against one of the worst NFC representatives in recent memory?
He should stick to beating washed-up boy-band members at ping-pong.
If you'd like further thoughts, please visit the theology forum. That's where we talk about the study of God...and Tom Brady
Last edited by Jeff Scott; April 20th, 2010 at 02:58 AM.
Yea, remind me to barf at the mention of him with "great QBs" please. Greatest team and coach ever. They coulda done it with any other QB. Brady doesn't even know how to tie Dan's shoelaces!OK, I will.
Please. Wouldn't the best QB ever have more than one ring which was won against one of the worst NFC representatives in recent memory?
He should stick to beating washed-up boy-band members at ping-pong.
If you'd like further thoughts, please visit the theology forum. That's where we talk about the study of God...and Tom Brady
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingShea Zellweger - "thanks" for this post
And I just want to make clear... As a host, ANY post on the Theology forum which mentions the name "Tom Brady" will be swiftly deleted and labeled blasphemy. Automatic negative reputation points will be assigned to the poster and their posting privileges on the Theology Forum will go under review for suspension...OK, I will.
Please. Wouldn't the best QB ever have more than one ring which was won against one of the worst NFC representatives in recent memory?
He should stick to beating washed-up boy-band members at ping-pong.
If you'd like further thoughts, please visit the theology forum. That's where we talk about the study of God...and Tom Brady
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Don't worry, Ben, I'm sure God would simply cause NN to crash again!
Ahhh, I miss the NFL! Here's to looking forward to the draft!
SURELY you're not speaking about Dan "No Rings" Marino????
Oh, to have a running back... Who knows what might have been???
oh to have ANYTHING to go with his right arm. That team coulda won TONS of rings.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Joe Montana!!!
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Championship Rings = Overvalued.
The logic behind having to have a championship ring to enter the discussion of being the best ever at a specific position in a team sport is absurd. I agree, it sure looks good on the resume, but that pattern of thinking would intend to say Robert Horry is better than Karl Malone and as good as Michael Jordan.
We know that both of those statements are false, but who says you have to have the stats and the ring(s) to be considered for that discussion?
The idea that it was the worst NFC representative is a joke. They won the NFC outright, by absolutely destroying the New Orleans Saints in the NFC championship. The claim that the competition was weak is a sad argument. The Colts were just that good in 2007.
Rings bode well in individual sports (tennis, golf, track, racing, etc), but it is a different story in a team sport.
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Robert Horry has more rings than Michael Jordan.
...just my $.02.
Although you also can't argue that Peyton Manning has proven himself in the playoffs - he simply hasn't. He's still the best person to ever play QB in the NFL - he just might not be the most valuable QB ever.
...just my $.02.
You're free to debate the merits of Brady, Manning, Marino, et all, but I have to agree with Dave Morris in that judging an individual by rings in a team sport is illogical. If Matt Cassel demonstrated anything in his time with the Patriots and then with the Chiefs, it's that Bill Belichick had a great system in place. Yes, it's probable that Brady would have had a better year than Cassel, but it's still a testimony to Hoody's coaching abilities.OK, I will.
Please. Wouldn't the best QB ever have more than one ring which was won against one of the worst NFC representatives in recent memory?
He should stick to beating washed-up boy-band members at ping-pong.
If you'd like further thoughts, please visit the theology forum. That's where we talk about the study of God...and Tom Brady
the fact is, this debate about "greatest quarterback" almost ALWAYS comes down to Manning and Brady, so trying to discount Manning's accomplishments might get you some points with Patriots (and Perhaps Jaguars) fans, but it just doesn't have any validity.
Oh, and that "worst NFC representative in recent memory?" They were 13-3 in the regular season, and won the NFC Championship against the Saints in convincing fashion. I believe the Colts beat the Patriots in the AFC Championship game that year as well, so it's not as though Brady didn't have his chance that year.
I don't know that I have heard a "greatest quarterback" debate in the last 15 years that did not include Montana and Elway.
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sorry, should've said "greatest active quarterback." We all know the greatest QB of all time is Ryan Leaf
I would actually go farther than this. Cassel had NEVER started an NFL game. He went 3-3 in his first 6 games, 7-2 after that. If he'd been accustomed to the system there is no reason to assume that those first 6 games don't end up 4-2 or 5-1 and the Patriots would have made the playoffs outright. They went 10-5 with a QB without a single NFL start and were 11-5 on the season. The fact that an 11-5 team missed the playoffs is criminal and with the way that team was playing in the last 7 or 8 games gives me every reason to believe they would have been a force in the playoffs.
Hoody is simply THAT good. I honestly think the smart move for the Pats would have been to keep Cassel, groom him in that system (much like they'd done with BradY) and trade their golden boy for the entire farm. That team would have been set to dominate for the next 10 years or so. Sadly, impressions of "greatness" for Tom Brady handicapped that team. (Or, from a Dolphins fan's point of view - IT IS GREAT! because the Patriots are so last decade in the AFC East. The Jets - Dolphins rivalry will define that division for some time to come, me thinks!)
Last edited by Benjamin Burch; April 20th, 2010 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Apparently i don't even know what Conference my favorite team plays in!
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Or a college game.
...just my $.02.
true that.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Joe Montana was a product of his system, playing for one of the most innovative coaches ever in football. He played on Super Bowl teams that averaged 7 pro-bowlers and 3 All-Pro's a year (and for the record, I think making 1st team All-Pro says a lot more than being a pro-bowler). He was handing off and passing to some pretty incredible players, least of which was Jerry Rice. John Elway was a great quarterback as well, but no where near the caliber that Manning is.
And Peyton is arguably the best to ever play the QB position, and is also the hands down MVP. Peyton Manning doesn't play in a system, he simply is the system. The Colts are 2-14 without him (hey, we play the Texans twice a year, can't help it).
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I probably shouldn't have said MVP. He is more important to his team than any other player in NFL history. However, if we're talking strictly about which QB is going win you a championship - he's just not on the top of that list. Although he does still have time to get there. One of the best things about the NFL is how many different factors have to come together to win a championship.
Marino never won. Montana had a system catered to him. Brady had a genius coach and an innovative defense. Elway had mediocre results until Shanahan came along. Manning has had a sub-par playoff career. Favre throws the wrong pass at the wrong time.
This is the perfect sports debate, because it really is completely subjective. People can make a case for nearly a dozen guys for one reason or another.
...just my $.02.Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
So Joe montana was just a product of the system. LOL
Not just a product of the system (such as I believe Tom Brady is). Instead, I think that Montanna's success, both stats and wins, are exaggerated by the system.
He would have won.
He would have had good stats.
But neither would have been as much and dramatic had it not been for the innovative system and the ridiculous teammates he had around him. Montanna was able to throw a 3 yard pass and have the runner run for 70 on a regular basis. He also had a great defense playing on the other side of the ball - something Marino never had.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
I know this will come as a shock to you Ben, but I disagree with you.Montana was great, period!
Montana was great. He also played on a great team. Manning plays on a pretty great team as well. So does Brady. If we're going from the "did less with more" to determine greatest QB, then IMHO Marino and McNabb should be in the conversation, but I don't find the argument as convincing when it comes to a guy like Montana. I'd say Brady's success is far more a result of his system than Montana's was, but since he will probably retire a Pat, or not be traded until he's on the decline anyway, we will probably never know.I know this will come as a shock to you Ben, but I disagree with you.
This is because you are young and probably do not remember when Montana took Kansas City to the playoffs his last two seasons. KC was not a WCO team and their talent was not on offense. To me that was proof of the greatness of Montana as a QB because he was never the best athlete but mentally was perhaps the greatest QB ever that made the best decisions for his team.
Arguably the best QB to ever play the game as far as having all of the skills was Steve Young. He began in the USFL and then went to Tampa Bay before backing up Montana. He has the mind and accuracy of Montana with a much better arm. It is a shame that his best years were spent on the bench. Another QB who gets lost in the shuffle is Jim Kelly who also began in the USFL. He was essentially Peyton Mannig before Peyton Manning by having a no huddle offense where he was able to call and audible the game. I know he never got a ring (not his fault) but 4 straight Super Bowls is impressive. He was a field goal away from one and a misplaced helmet from a possible second.
One last thought. What I think is amazing about Peyton Manning and Bret Farve is that they have proven that they can win with different coaches. Peyton has led his team to the playoffs under three different coaches. Farve has done it with 4. Brady might never have to prove what he can do outside of Hoodie but to have that kind of success regardless of who is coaching tells me a lot about the player.
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Kelly definitely gets lost in that shuffle. Since my brother passed away I don't have someone around to remind me anymore (he was a hardcore Bills fan, I swear it was just to spite his older brother!!!). Kelly was fabulous.
I also think you bring up a great point with Young. There's a reason he is in the top of every category that matters. I also think you're point about Montanna on the Chiefs is well taken, but I still stand by my statement that his numbers and wins are inflated due to the system - that's not to say he wasn't great.
All in all, even as a Marino fan, I don't think there's any sense in debating the issue. Bret Favre is the greatest Quarterback to play the game of football. His ability to win without the talent Montanna had, without the system Brady had, and to perform with the stats for longer than Young, Marino, or Elway could. He even won the elusive ring so that's not standing in his way unless people want to make the case that "more equals better." The problem is when it comes to Dan everyone says "he never won one." But when it comes to Favre or Manning they say "he only won one!" I do think Favre was a better playoff QB than Manning though.
If Marino had won one there'd be no discussion. It'd be Marino and Favre... until the day comes that Peyton Manning hangs his cleats up and we all have to acknowledge that he was the greatest to ever step on a football field.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I think you may be confusing what I said with what Ben said. I pointed out that Montana was a great Quarterback who happened to play on a great team, as opposed to Brady, who I believe is an average quarterback playing on a great team for a great coach.
How would that be confusing the two of us then? I said the same thing. I just highlighted that I do in fact think that Montana's winning and stats are slightly inflated due to his coaching, system, and surrounding talent. He just had what none of the other guys in this conversation had. To say that had no effect would be to kid ourselves. However, I also affirmed that Montana was a great Quarterback.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Ah, I kinda got the impression that you were putting Montana on par with Brady...
No, not in the least.
That's why I said:
I was trying to say "not what I think Tom Brady is." I was trying to say that while Montana certainly owes some of his success to the other factors, he is not solely dependent on those, as I believe Brady to be.Not just a product of the system (such as I believe Tom Brady is).
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I have started to type a reply to this statement about 10 times because I can't collect my thoughts. The combination of the words "Favre" and "great" does this to me. And you've gone further and called him the greatest ever. I will concede that he was a good quarterback, clearly a headed to the Hall of Fame. But Favre doesn't even make the top 5, probably not the top 10.
If you want a very exciting regular season, give me Favre. If you want an almost sure-fire way to lose the big playoff game in ways just as exciting, give me Favre.
-Lost the 1997 Superbowl when heavily favored against the Broncos.
-In 2001, The Packers lost 45-17 to the Rams in the playoffs with Favre throwing an NFL postseason record six interceptions, three of which were returned for touchdowns. This is against a team that was known for it's offense more than defense.
-In 2002, His team lost a home playoff game after going 8-0 at home that season. The temp was 34 degrees and the Falcons were an indoor team. 27-7.
-2003, Overtime interception returned to set up a game winning field goal.
-2004, Wild card loss (clobbering) to the Vikings. Favre threw 4 interceptions and fumbled once.
-2007, First play of overtime in the NFC championship was an interception, again led to the game winning field goal. This made him the only QB ever to throw two interceptions in OT in the playoffs.
He's a turnover machine. 5 times he's had more turnovers than TDs. (1991, 1993, 1999, 2005, and 2008, I suppose it's fair to throw out 91).
He's averaged over 22 turnovers a season.
Is he likable? Well, I suppose. Although his recent struggles with retirement has somewhat damaged this.
Does he hold significant records. Yes- all time TD passes, yards, and wins. Not to mention his consecutive starts record, injured or not. When you start that many games, have the abilities Favre had(s), and the longevity that he's had, the numbers are going to be up there. Perhaps these records will not be broken. Nor will the interception record. The most important job a quarterback has is to NOT TURN THE BALL OVER, a job that is magnified in the playoffs.
Given my feelings about Favre, this past season was difficult to take. My father-in-law and I go back an forth about Favre. He loves him. I don't. Week after week he'd call and say, "Did you see Favre this week?" I'd reply, "Yep, he's looking great. But wait. He'll blow it when it counts the most."
I was right.
Best QB ever? Not with his huge failure rate.
I think his incredible ability to even put himself in the position to fail in ALL OF THOSE GAMES MENTIONED just goes to prove how good he is. He did what he had to do, he won ONE Super Bowl. But the guy just wins. Over and over again, and puts himself in a position to win. Not just that, he wins no matter who his coach is, and no matter what team he's on.
If he didn't have the interceptions he'd be Peyton Manning with more success. And that's what will separate the two when Manning retires.... he didn't turn the ball over.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
I'll say it now - greatest QB ever. I just wouldn't pick him to win me the Superbowl, if I was choosing just for one game.
...just my $.02.
He also blows it in big games, over and over again.
As for being Peyton Manning with more success, you're right, he would be, except that he's not. That's why he shouldn't be called the best ever.
I've resigned myself to the fact that the people who love Favre just do. They're not going to change. Fortunately, it's just football and really doesn't matter! I just don't understand why he gets a free pass on what are really dumb football decisions.
And Ryan, that's why he's not the greatest QB ever.
And that's a completely subjective statement, which is why this argument is so fun and never ending.
...just my $.02.
Jeff,
One of the worst NFC teams? Really? How in the world did they get to the Super Bowl then? AND How in the world did they pretty much kill every team they played? But, somehow they were one the worst NFC teams in recent memory? I agree they are horrible now and I can't stand the Bears, however, they were pretty amazing that year. How's Brady doing? Will they have a winning season next year?
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That's Heresy, John Calvin would disagree with you.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. had to do it once. Welcome to NazNet Kelsth. *SEEP*
Last edited by Benjamin Burch; April 22nd, 2010 at 08:17 AM.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
"You all think you are hilariousth!"
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