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    Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Snodgrass View Post
    Charles Wesley put words to "bar tunes" so that the songs would be easy for everyone to sing...I guess Wesley should have just stuck to just preaching the gospel.

    .
    I have heard this thing about Wesley putting text to 'bar tunes' for years. It goes along with the rhetorical question about why the devil should have all the good music. I have yet to see any documented example of this assertion.

    In Wesley's day hymns were not written to fit a particular tune (or vice versa). The hymn text would fit a particular meter (number of syllables per line) and any tune that fit that meter could be used. Hymn tunes were, most commonly, composed by church organists.

    Now it may very well be that the organist had spent some time in the tavern, had one of those tunes rattling around in his brain, and incororated parts of it into a tune. Composers are notorious for frequently putting just about any stray musical thought that wanders through in the music they write. I have yet to read any hymnologist who was able to prove that this was a deliberate evangelistic strategy on the part of Charles.

    Charles, incidentally, was an even 'churchlier' Anglican than John, had many reservations about John's practice of 'field preaching', and tended to look askance at anything that would create a break with Anglicanism.

    Having said all of the above, I fully support your plans to use musical styles to which the target audience will relate.

    BTW, my dad was an ol' Davis Creek boy and probably knew a lot of your relatives.
    Thanks Gina Stevenson, George Wallace, Nelson Bradford - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Iwhy the devil should have all the good music. I
    Larry Norman ... Good tune

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    I have yet to see any documented example of this assertion.
    Browse your STL if you can find one, you will find all the proof you need.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    My quick look verifies your assertion with one exception. Though no drinking tunes were used it appears one tune was taken from a popular song of the day.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Larry Norman ... Good tune



    Browse your STL if you can find one, you will find all the proof you need.
    Guess I need a translation - what is an STL?

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Guess I need a translation - what is an STL?
    Sing to the Lord. There are many hymns that will have under the music credits of "to the tune of" or such. Though as I've already posted, there may not be more than one CW tune set to a popular tune. As I learned in a 60 second search, a "bar tune" refers to a meter in the AABA format (whatever that means).

    Do I need to translate Larry Norman for you?
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Sing to the Lord. There are many hymns that will have under the music credits of "to the tune of" or such. Though as I've already posted, there may not be more than one CW tune set to a popular tune. As I learned in a 60 second search, a "bar tune" refers to a meter in the AABA format (whatever that means).

    Do I need to translate Larry Norman for you?
    Thanks for the heads up on STL. I've had it in my collection of hymnals for nearly 20 years now. It was probably the first 'real' hymnal produced by the church. Previous ones had been more collections of songs minimally organized.

    To me it's a rather tragic irony that when the church got around to producing a high quality hymnal a lot of Nazarene churches decided they no longer wanted one.

    All of the C. Wesley hymns in STL are set to tunes that are used with other texts in STL and other hymnals. For instance, Wesley's "Soldiers of Christ, Arise" is set to the same tune that is used for "Crown him with many crowns".

    The AABA format is probably a metrical reference: "S.M. (6.6.8.6) (STL P. 763) includes the hymn tune Boylston (to which we sing "A charge to keep I have"), Dennis (to which we sing "Blest be the tie that binds"), St Thomas (to which we sing "I love thy kingdom, Lord"), and Trentham (to which we sing "Breathe on me, breath of God").

    Since all these hymns have the same metrical pattern (S.M., 6.6.8.6, or AABA) they could all be sung to any of the tunes listed.

    All the above is undoubtedly far, far more than anyone ever wanted to know about hymns - if read slowly it could probably help one get to sleep at night.

    Larry Norman requires no translation. He is responsible for some good stuff. His remark has, unfortunately, been used by some to validate (or at least attempt to validate) some musical abominations that God, in his great mercy, will help us, in time, to forget.
    Thanks Marsha Lynn, Susan Unger, Gina Stevenson, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    My quick look verifies your assertion with one exception. Though no drinking tunes were used it appears one tune was taken from a popular song of the day.
    Which one?

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Which one?
    Didn't look that deep.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Larry Norman requires no translation. He is responsible for some good stuff. His remark has, unfortunately, been used by some to validate (or at least attempt to validate) some musical abominations that God, in his great mercy, will help us, in time, to forget.
    The song is his but I think the original quote goes to Martin Luther.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
    Thanks John Kennedy, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    My favorite all time hymn is Christ, the Solid Rock. Until, just recently, I've never met an arrangement of that song I did not like. Whomever is on the current CCM rotation now destroyed the message and the melody.

    One arrangement I have not heard yet is a mashup of the intro to Bittersweet Symphony and Christ the Solid Rock. I ran across a worship leader using youtube posts to introduce his team to upccoming worship sets introducing that mashup.

    I'd really like to hear that transition, complete with electric violin.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    What about Danny Boy? What was that song called? "I shall for EEEEVVVV er lift mine eyes to Calvary. To see the CROOOOOOSSSSSS where Jesus died for me..."

    I'm probably butchering this and maybe Danny Boy is not a bar tune.

    I'd love to worship on Saturday night and have Sunday be a day of rest, but knowing me I'd probably be teaching kids at both times...
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy McDonald View Post
    What about Danny Boy? What was that song called? "I shall for EEEEVVVV er lift mine eyes to Calvary. To see the CROOOOOOSSSSSS where Jesus died for me..."

    I'm probably butchering this and maybe Danny Boy is not a bar tune.

    I'd love to worship on Saturday night and have Sunday be a day of rest, but knowing me I'd probably be teaching kids at both times...
    Londonderry Air
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

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    Senior Member Peggy Gray's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy McDonald View Post
    What about Danny Boy? What was that song called? "I shall for EEEEVVVV er lift mine eyes to Calvary. To see the CROOOOOOSSSSSS where Jesus died for me..."

    I'm probably butchering this and maybe Danny Boy is not a bar tune.

    I'd love to worship on Saturday night and have Sunday be a day of rest, but knowing me I'd probably be teaching kids at both times...
    He Looked Beyond My Fault and Saw My Need
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy Gray View Post
    He Looked Beyond My Fault and Saw My Need
    Words from Dottie Rambo, if I recall.
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. ~ Stella Adler
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life. ~ Susan Lapin ~
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor lasts a lifetime! Weeping may last through the night, but joy comes with the morning. Psalm 30:5 (NLT)
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Yeah, I knew it was too new to be Wesley. And not really a hymn so much as a special music type song.

    This is interesting, although I have no idea how true it is:
    http://www.apologetix.com/faq/faq-de...hp?faq_q_id=89
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Saturday Night Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy Gray View Post
    He Looked Beyond My Fault and Saw My Need
    Or, His Redeeming Grace by Steve Adams;

    The grace of God is greater than the hurt of man
    His grace runs deeper than my deepest fear
    It stretches higher than my hopes and dreams and goals
    It lifts me far above my guilt and tears

    My soul shall sing of grace that sets the captives free
    Of grace that keeps and satisfies the soul
    Redeeming grace forever more my song shall be
    For God’s amazing grace has cleansed and made me whole

    I found forgiveness when I could not forgive myself
    By grace through faith I’ve walked through prison doors
    My chains fell off and suddenly my sins were gone
    And I found life that’s well worth living for

    I can’t explain all the secrets of redemptions plan
    Or how his spirit moves through time and space
    But this I know I know he came into this life of mine
    He cleansed my heart, he bought my soul with His redeeming grace.
    or in the Hymnbook category there are these three that I know of;

    I cannot tell why He Whom angels worship by William Y Fullerton

    Look kindly Lord on this your child now seeking by Charles Henrywood

    O Christ the same by Timothy Dudley Smith

    The tune is played as the "Victory Song of Northern Ireland" at the Commonwealth Games.

    While it may not be a "Bar Tune," or "Drinking Tune," it is Irish...... While it's origin is cloudy, the tune was first collected and transcribed by Jane Ross of Limavady in County Londonderry. She submitted the tune to George Petrie, and it was then published by the Society for the Preservation and Publication of the Melodies of Ireland in the 1855 book The Ancient Music of Ireland, which Petrie edited. He attributes it's collection to Jane.

    For the following beautiful air I have to express my very grateful acknowledgement to Miss J. Ross, of New Town, Limavady, in the County of Londonderry—a lady who has made a large collection of the popular unpublished melodies of the county , which she has very kindly placed at my disposal, and which has added very considerably to the stock of tunes which I had previously acquired from that still very Irish county. I say still very Irish, for though it has been planted for more than two centuries by English and Scottish settlers, the old Irish race still forms the great majority of its peasant inhabitants; and there are few, if any counties in which, with less foreign admixture, the ancient melodies of the country have been so extensively preserved. The name of the tune unfortunately was not ascertained by Miss Ross, who sent it to me with the simple remark that it was 'very old', in the correctness of which statement I have no hesitation in expressing my perfect concurrence.
    And so that John can get a good nights sleep, it's meter is 11.10.11.10.D

    As to ol Charles, I wonder if the folks who attribute his use of drinking tunes, just might have him crossed up with John Newton.

    I haven't worked on it in a while, I've been toying around with writing gospel lyrics to Freddy Mercury's "Somebody To Love."
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Senior Member George Wallace's Avatar

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    I have heard this thing about Wesley putting text to 'bar tunes' for years. It goes along with the rhetorical question about why the devil should have all the good music. I have yet to see any documented example of this assertion.

    In Wesley's day hymns were not written to fit a particular tune (or vice versa). The hymn text would fit a particular meter (number of syllables per line) and any tune that fit that meter could be used. Hymn tunes were, most commonly, composed by church organists.

    Now it may very well be that the organist had spent some time in the tavern, had one of those tunes rattling around in his brain, and incororated parts of it into a tune. Composers are notorious for frequently putting just about any stray musical thought that wanders through in the music they write. I have yet to read any hymnologist who was able to prove that this was a deliberate evangelistic strategy on the part of Charles.

    Charles, incidentally, was an even 'churchlier' Anglican than John, had many reservations about John's practice of 'field preaching', and tended to look askance at anything that would create a break with Anglicanism.

    Having said all of the above, I fully support your plans to use musical styles to which the target audience will relate.

    BTW, my dad was an ol' Davis Creek boy and probably knew a lot of your relatives.
    Excellent John,
    Except for the part about organists, they may have had some influence in Cathedrals and larger Parishes, but most of the singing, which was virtually the Psalms, was done sans instrumentation for the largest part of the Church. The parish clerk would be the one leading the a cappela congregational singing.

    Singing the Psalms: A Brief History of Psalmody
    Early English psalmody, like the psalmody of plain chant, was almost exclusively vocal. Organs were found in only a few of the cathedrals and larger churches. Although many Reformed leaders were skilled in music, they believed that instruments were appropriate only for secular music or for personal devotion and not for public worship. In the church service, a leader (in England the church clerk, in New England a deacon or "precentor") would "set the tone" which the congregation would follow. Later some instruments began to be used, beginning with the pitch pipe and bass viol ("church bass"), then treble instruments such as the flute. Except for some Episcopal churches, organs were not introduced in New England until the mid-nineteenth century. The earlier psalm books which included music printed only the melody.
    Praise the Lord with Cymbals…Loud Clashing Cymbals
    The singing of metrical psalms was the primary form of congregation participation in the Prayer Book services. The Sternhold and Hopkins “Old Version” of The Psalms of David in Metre enjoyed a popularity that we do not fully understand today. England became a nation of psalm-singers. The common people sung metrical psalms as they went about their daily occupations. Elizabeth I, however, did not like metrical psalm singing. She derisively referred to the tunes as “Geneva jigs.” The metrical psalm tunes may in part account for their popularity. They were often sung to familiar popular melodies, the tunes of folk ballads and dances. These tunes were frequently played on the lute and other stringed instruments, the oboe and other woodwinds, and the tabor, a small hand drum. In church, however, metrical palms were usually sung unaccompanied. The parish clerk would line out a verse and the congregation would sing it after him. In a few parish churches was introduced the use of a barrel organ as a form of accompaniment. Pipe organs were found only in cathedrals and collegiate chapels, as were choirs.
    *NOTE: I would challenge this authors contention that;
    In the early Church all musical instruments were prohibited. Their prohibition was not on biblical grounds. It had to do with where musical instruments were commonly played at the time—
    While this is true, to a degree or for some, the lions share of early church eschewed instrumentation ON BIBLICAL GROUNDS, believing the instruments tied to the OT Ceremonial Law, thus their use would be to Judize.

    "Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."

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    Senior Member George Wallace's Avatar

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Oh.. as a complete aside, did you know that the theme from Gilligan's Island is also Common Meter? Meaning, that you can sing many popular Common Meter Hymns including Amazing Grace to this theme song? WARNING: Once you try singing Amazing Grace to the Gilligan's Island them it becomes an ear worm you cannot easily get rid of.... you have been warned!


    Skip forward to 1 min. 28 seconds to hear it done... Do so at your own ear-worm peril!!!



    Speaking of popular tunes....And now for some real fun...

    Amazing Grace/Gilligan's Island/House of the Rising Sun

    "Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
    Laughing John Kennedy, Gina Stevenson - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Bob Carabbio's Avatar

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    I heard the same thing about William Booth (Salvation Army) - Bar tunes converted to hymns that the brass band could play on the street.

    My Band used to do "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun". Younger folks liked it, but it didn't go over real well with the older crowd (shudder). They liked it in 2/4 time instead of 3/4.

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes


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    Host Theology Forum Dennis M. Scott's Avatar

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    I have heard this thing about Wesley putting text to 'bar tunes' for years. It goes along with the rhetorical question about why the devil should have all the good music. I have yet to see any documented example of this assertion.

    In Wesley's day hymns were not written to fit a particular tune (or vice versa). The hymn text would fit a particular meter (number of syllables per line) and any tune that fit that meter could be used. Hymn tunes were, most commonly, composed by church organists.

    Now it may very well be that the organist had spent some time in the tavern, had one of those tunes rattling around in his brain, and incororated parts of it into a tune. Composers are notorious for frequently putting just about any stray musical thought that wanders through in the music they write. I have yet to read any hymnologist who was able to prove that this was a deliberate evangelistic strategy on the part of Charles.

    Charles, incidentally, was an even 'churchlier' Anglican than John, had many reservations about John's practice of 'field preaching', and tended to look askance at anything that would create a break with Anglicanism.
    Fooey! Remarkably, you have just ruined one of Sunday's sermon illustrations. One of the problems with having several naznetters in one's congregation. Maybe they won't listen, or they won't have checked this thread. If either of those is the case, all I have to worry about is knowingly using a faulty illustration. I've got to stop doing that.
    Laughing John Kennedy, Monte Butts, Gina Stevenson - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis M. Scott View Post
    Fooey! Remarkably, you have just ruined one of Sunday's sermon illustrations. One of the problems with having several naznetters in one's congregation. Maybe they won't listen, or they won't have checked this thread. If either of those is the case, all I have to worry about is knowingly using a faulty illustration. I've got to stop doing that.
    Boy, the messes you get into when you're just trying to be a blessing!
    Laughing Gina Stevenson, Jim Chabot - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
    I heard the same thing about William Booth (Salvation Army) - Bar tunes converted to hymns that the brass band could play on the street.

    My Band used to do "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun". Younger folks liked it, but it didn't go over real well with the older crowd (shudder). They liked it in 2/4 time instead of 3/4.
    Haven't heard "Amazing...." set to the tune of "House...." since the 70's. Liked it then - would still like it today. Good marriage of text and tune.
    It seemed to be well received by old as well as young. Of course, there's always the possibility that the 'old' had never heard the secular "House...." and didn't know what it was talking about. (Nazarenes in those days didn't 'get out' as much as they do now).
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: Wesley & Bar Tunes

    Doggone it, George! That's starting to go through my head now ... Gilligan's Island w/Amazing Grace lyrics. Was going to add, tho' ~~ even before seeing John K's post ~~ that I much better like the Amazing Grace lyrics to the "... Rising Sun" tune than that Gilligan's Island earworm! Maybe I can get the earworm to switch to that other "... Sun" tune now.
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. ~ Stella Adler
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life. ~ Susan Lapin ~
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor lasts a lifetime! Weeping may last through the night, but joy comes with the morning. Psalm 30:5 (NLT)

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