Praying for those that persecute us

[David Gerber]

NOTE: IF this applies to you, great. If not, help me, and those to whom it does apply, to grow in grace. Thank you.

Jesus says in Matthew 5. 44-48 "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

I am guilty of wanting to pick sides. No, I take that back, I take sides. When people call friends of mine heretics or false teachers, it hurts. I get angry and I want to defend them. But my goal isn't to be justified in my anger or resentment. My goal is to be more and more like Jesus.

It does no good to simply love the lovable. It does me no good to like the likable. If I am going to be like Jesus, then I must love the unlovable and unlikeable. And apparently, if I am to be like Jesus, I must do good for them, too.

What does it look like to pray for those that persecute us? I am convinced that if we cannot not take this seriously here, we will not be able to help anyone else when they come against this type of thing in their own lives.

I would like to offer some thoughts and get some feedback on doing this. Without it, I fear I will not be moving toward Christ-likeness, but away.

1) Praying for a person does not mean wanting their mission to succeed. It does mean praying for them to experience the fullness and richness of God's love in that person's life. It means praying for them and their families. It means praying for them like you'd wish they were praying for you.

2) Praying for them may bring up bitterness and anger regarding the pain they other party has inflicted upon us. In those times, it is best to look inward and see what God is trying to show us about us. We are the ones that are reacting to the bitter diatribes. What have these attacks revealed about the condition of our own souls? When that is revealed, what needs to be surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ?

3) Prayer means asking for new eyes. I am reminded that if I cannot love those whom I have seen, how can I love the one I have not seen? In the eyes of Jesus each person is cherished and valued. Each person, though damaged by sin and its consequences, carries with them the image and likeness of God. It is too easy to look at those that are attacking us with a jaundiced eye. I need new eyes to see the value of these people.

4) Prayer, at least in this case, is not about fixing 'them' but healing us. How could Jesus hang on the cross and ask for forgiveness for us? First off, how galling for those that knew they were doing right? Second, how amazing that that should be his prayer. Persecution, name-calling, and hurt will come, but it will only last this lifetime. I want the ability to look into my persecutors face and love them, whether or not they ever change.

5) Prayer like this is never easy. Obedience to the call to love is counter to our nature. It is counter to all that we 'know' about good and evil. This takes surrender, persistence, consistency, and courage.

6) Praying for those that persecute us is to pray to be more like Jesus. If I cannot learn to love, forgive, and pray for those that persecute me with words how can I ever love, forgive and pray for them when I am brought before anyone to suffer for the Name above all names?


Luke 21:12-19 "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 All men will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By standing firm you will gain life."

The ball is in your court. What do you think? What can we do?

[David Troxler]

Dave G,
I hear you.

to be more like Jesus.
dave t

[Craig Laughlin]

Yes and Amen.

[Hans Deventer]

Great post, David, thank you! I've been praying for Manny, Tom and Grant for a couple of months now, but my problem was that it kept focussing my mind on this issue and that doesn't seem to be so productive. I frankly don't like being focussed on this issue all the time. It plays no role on our district, it is irrelevant to the ministry of my local church. So I quit a couple of weeks ago.

But now I'm wondering what to do. The Lord does ask us to pray for our enemies, those that persecute us. But I wondered how long I should let myself be dragged down by this.

[Randy Wise]

But now I'm wondering what to do. The Lord does ask us to pray for our enemies, those that persecute us. But I wondered how long I should let myself be dragged down by this.

The Lord sets the mark of perfection. Many of us still work towards that mark.

I think keeping oneself from being hateful and vengeful is the goal as that comes out of the heart of a person.

Randy

[David Gerber]

Great post, David, thank you! I've been praying for Manny, Tom and Grant for a couple of months now, but my problem was that it kept focussing my mind on this issue and that doesn't seem to be so productive. I frankly don't like being focussed on this issue all the time. It plays no role on our district, it is irrelevant to the ministry of my local church. So I quit a couple of weeks ago.

But now I'm wondering what to do. The Lord does ask us to pray for our enemies, those that persecute us. But I wondered how long I should let myself be dragged down by this.

Hans, I woke up last night thinking about that issue. I like to do what I call 'honest prayer'. I tell God exactly how and what I am feeling. All the gory details are spoken. So I might talk about how I know I need to forgive and love person A, but that I really don't want to. I then share all of my anger and my hurts and desires with God. Finally, after everything is said, I tell God that I am not going to change my course without God's intervention. So, I give God permission to intervene.

I wish I could go into more detail, maybe a message would suffice. It is a graphic, no-holds-barred approach to prayer that lets God really get to work in our lives.

I don't know if this helps. I don't even know if it was appropriate. And yet, there it is in all its glory. :-)

[Hans Deventer]

David, I hold no grudge against Manny, Tim and Grant, but I am very sad to see the havoc Manny, Tim and Grant are creating and it makes me tremble to think how Manny, Tim and Grant would have to appear before the Lord. Though I've been abused and misrepresented, I'm not angry. I just don't like being reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant all the time, I'd like to move on with my life.
And I don't see how I can do that if I have to keep praying for and thus be reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant.

(Ryan, this isn't working. Help me out, why do I have to mention these names time and time again?)

[Randy Wise]

David, I hold no grudge against Manny, Tim and Grant, but I am very sad to see the havoc Manny, Tim and Grant are creating and it makes me tremble to think how Manny, Tim and Grant would have to appear before the Lord. Though I've been abused and misrepresented, I'm not angry. I just don't like being reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant all the time, I'd like to move on with my life.
And I don't see how I can do that if I have to keep praying for and thus be reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant.

(Ryan, this isn't working. Help me out, why do I have to mention these names time and time again?)

Tell the Lord its bothering you and ask Him what you ask us.

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

Tell the Lord its bothering you and ask Him what you ask us.

Randy

He knows. I just wonder if I understand His command correctly.

[Randy Wise]

He knows. I just wonder if I understand His command correctly.

Same context as they who oppose you think they are in service to God in that regard.

"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (This is the mark)



Randy

[Hans Deventer]

Same context as they who oppose you think they are in service to God in that regard.

"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (This is the mark)

Randy, this isn't helpful.

It's not about forgiving. The question is, how long do you keep praying for people if that prayer keeps involving you in stuff you don't need to be involved in and actually don't even want to be involved in, again, especially since it is NOT (I repeat, NOT) about forgiving.

[Todd Erickson]

I think that quite often, as we pray for things which irritate us, it reveals aspects of our character that God is still working in.

If we encounter these things, where they are abbrasive, and we wish to shy away from them, it may be worth simply sitting there and meditating on those things with God. Feel free to yell at God, to rail at God, in the nature of Job and David, to ask why, to beg for help. Be honest with God, rather than merely mature with God.

But also be honest with yourself. If bringing this up in prayer is abrading your soul and pulling you into things that are incensing you when they shouldn't or when it's to little gain, this may be space for seeing places in yourself that God is asking for permission to change, for your accompanying effort in expanding and transmogriphying your heart.

I suspect that, indeed, this is an ongoing aspect of forgiveness within the Christian relationship, because being in Christ together does not, we see, actually bring peace between us...if we look at Paul and Peter, this was likely a broken relationship that never quite healed, for all that they respected each other and worked together.

Everything is an avenue and an opportunity for growth...no matter how tired we grow in the journey. The question is not whether we can stand to continue, but whether we can afford not to.

[Ryan Scott]

(Ryan, this isn't working. Help me out, why do I have to mention these names time and time again?)

I'm not sure actually mentioning the same names every time does anything to stop ourselves from generalizing.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm not sure actually mentioning the same names every time does anything to stop ourselves from generalizing.

Well, then I'd appreciate some new advice. I was wrong first, I'm wrong again, apparently. Just say what I gotta do. Still willing to learn.

[Hans Deventer]

I think that quite often, as we pray for things which irritate us, it reveals aspects of our character that God is still working in.

Todd, I generally don't even think about it.

If we encounter these things, where they are abbrasive, and we wish to shy away from them, it may be worth simply sitting there and meditating on those things with God. Feel free to yell at God, to rail at God, in the nature of Job and David, to ask why, to beg for help. Be honest with God, rather than merely mature with God.

I have no reason to yell at God at all. Why would I? He's not to blame for people's behaviour.

But also be honest with yourself. If bringing this up in prayer is abrading your soul and pulling you into things that are incensing you when they shouldn't or when it's to little gain, this may be space for seeing places in yourself that God is asking for permission to change, for your accompanying effort in expanding and transmogriphying your heart.

Wow, this is getting hard. Nobody seems to read what I am saying. I am not angry (but I do get a little irritated over having to explain myself again and again). I just don't like being confronted with this issue that plays no role whatsoever in my church or district and about which I can do nothing, time and time again. Is this so hard to understand? I'm sure the guys mean well. I'm equally sure their behaviour is destructive but there is nothing I can do about it. And praying keeps me focussed on an issue that simply does no good in any way.

Example. Let's say I have a colleague that I have problems with, that I see on a daily basis. It would be very good to keep praying for him and myself in such a situation. However, this is not the case. It's only because some feel the need to bring the issue up again for the umpteenth time that I'm confronted with it again. And I just wonder, should I keep praying about this? A very simple question, isn't it? It really isn't so hard.

I suspect that, indeed, this is an ongoing aspect of forgiveness within the Christian relationship,

You suspect too much. Forgiveness is not an issue.

Everything is an avenue and an opportunity for growth...no matter how tired we grow in the journey. The question is not whether we can stand to continue, but whether we can afford not to.

So how many issues do you pray for?

[David Gerber]

David, I hold no grudge against Manny, Tim and Grant, but I am very sad to see the havoc Manny, Tim and Grant are creating and it makes me tremble to think how Manny, Tim and Grant would have to appear before the Lord. Though I've been abused and misrepresented, I'm not angry. I just don't like being reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant all the time, I'd like to move on with my life.
And I don't see how I can do that if I have to keep praying for and thus be reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant.

(Ryan, this isn't working. Help me out, why do I have to mention these names time and time again?)

Hans, thanks for the clarification. I have a habit of interpreting other people's situation through my lens. I am frustrated, even angry, with those concerned folks and think everyone else would be, too.

One of the things I think is really frustrating for me is that I feel powerless to change anything, and that is more about me than them. How different it is when it doesn't even have any bearing on your district and such (which I must admit I am a bit envious of ).

Perhaps you would be willing to pray for me as I am the one that needs peace and grace in this situation.

Hans, I hope I am hearing you correctly and I am sorry for slipping into the very thing I don't like to do...fix people.

[Hans Deventer]

Perhaps you would be willing to pray for me as I am the one that needs peace and grace in this situation.

Hans, I hope I am hearing you correctly and I am sorry for slipping into the very thing I don't like to do...fix people.

You are hearing me correctly. Thank you! No need to apologise and I'll pray for you! I feel powerless too, and it frightens me that the Lord Himself could not change people that did not want to be changed, but we still have to trust the One who can turn the worst of situations into the greatest blessings.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Reading through this thread a question arises in my mind: IF a person or group of persons actions no longer have any affect upon us are they still our enemy? I suppose that they could be. But, can we stop praying for them as we would an enemy/persecutor who IS actively affecting our lives? It seems to me, and I could well be wrong here, that praying for our persecutors and enemies our hate dissipates, we can keep our anger from leading us into sin. If we are no longer engaged with this person or persons and not in jeopardy of hating or sinning in anger toward them, do we need to continue to pray for them. As i see it we cannot pray for everybody and every situation under the sun, but have to be selective, out of shear time restraints. I would suggest that unless our persecutors come to mind than we really don't need to go searching our minds for them in order to pray for them. However, when they do come to mind then we should.

[Susan Unger]

I just don't like being confronted with this issue that plays no role whatsoever in my church or district and about which I can do nothing, time and time again. ...And praying keeps me focused on an issue that simply does no good in any way.

...So how many issues do you pray for?

I am an intercessor so I am very aware of prayer needs all around me. I've learned that I don't have to pray for every request that comes across my path. With this situation, I say "God if you want me to pray, then fill me with your Spirit and give me the words and desire to pray." So far, I've been led to pray for other issues. Since I've asked and God has answered, I am at peace concerning my praying. I'm not saying the situation doesn't need prayer, but I leave that in God's hands to raise up the necessary pray-ers.

[David Gerber]

Reading through this thread a question arises in my mind: IF a person or group of persons actions no longer have any affect upon us are they still our enemy? I suppose that they could be. But, can we stop praying for them as we would an enemy/persecutor who IS actively affecting our lives? It seems to me, and I could well be wrong here, that praying for our persecutors and enemies our hate dissipates, we can keep our anger from leading us into sin. If we are no longer engaged with this person or persons and not in jeopardy of hating or sinning in anger toward them, do we need to continue to pray for them. As i see it we cannot pray for everybody and every situation under the sun, but have to be selective, out of shear time restraints. I would suggest that unless our persecutors come to mind than we really don't need to go searching our minds for them in order to pray for them. However, when they do come to mind then we should.

I guess what comes to mind is Paul's discussion of the Body. If one part suffers, the whole body suffers. And Paul's request that the Colossians remember his chains.

We are all one body. We are all family. We need to pray for people like me that need strength to love those that are doing hurtful things to my friends and eventually me.

While it is true a person that is not persecuting me is no longer my enemy, they are persecuting someone I love. "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Comes to mind.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Just read an interesting blog on this very subject, http://miketodd.typepad.com/waving_o...es-really.html

[Randy Wise]

He knows. I just wonder if I understand His command correctly.

my advice hasn't changed - but maybe I can state it better with scripture

1 Peter 5:7 (New International Version)

7Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

Take the problem that bothers you in prayer to the Lord.

Randy

[David Troxler]

Well, then I'd appreciate some new advice. I was wrong first, I'm wrong again, apparently. Just say what I gotta do. Still willing to learn.

Let me give you some spiritual direction on this...

Do some centering prayer and then take a long, slow walk through a labrythinth as you meditate on this matter. That should clear it all up for you.

(Hans, if you like, you can delete this after reading. dave t)

[Dennis Bratcher]

Hans, I woke up last night thinking about that issue. I like to do what I call 'honest prayer'. I tell God exactly how and what I am feeling. All the gory details are spoken. So I might talk about how I know I need to forgive and love person A, but that I really don't want to. I then share all of my anger and my hurts and desires with God. Finally, after everything is said, I tell God that I am not going to change my course without God's intervention. So, I give God permission to intervene.

I wish I could go into more detail, maybe a message would suffice. It is a graphic, no-holds-barred approach to prayer that lets God really get to work in our lives.

I don't know if this helps. I don't even know if it was appropriate. And yet, there it is in all its glory. :-)

Sounds like a lot of the Psalms, 137 for example (about half of the Psalter is comprised of such lament psalms). It's too bad that we have developed the idea that prayer ought to be proper and respectfully pious.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Hans Deventer]

my advice hasn't changed

Hence, nor has my reaction.

[Rich Schmidt]

Great post, David, thank you! I've been praying for Manny, Tom and Grant for a couple of months now, but my problem was that it kept focussing my mind on this issue and that doesn't seem to be so productive. I frankly don't like being focussed on this issue all the time. It plays no role on our district, it is irrelevant to the ministry of my local church. So I quit a couple of weeks ago.

But now I'm wondering what to do. The Lord does ask us to pray for our enemies, those that persecute us. But I wondered how long I should let myself be dragged down by this.

David, I hold no grudge against Manny, Tim and Grant, but I am very sad to see the havoc Manny, Tim and Grant are creating and it makes me tremble to think how Manny, Tim and Grant would have to appear before the Lord. Though I've been abused and misrepresented, I'm not angry. I just don't like being reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant all the time, I'd like to move on with my life.
And I don't see how I can do that if I have to keep praying for and thus be reminded of Manny, Tim and Grant.

(Ryan, this isn't working. Help me out, why do I have to mention these names time and time again?)

He knows. I just wonder if I understand His command correctly.

I think if I were in your shoes, then I wouldn't bother putting this situation on my daily prayer list or anything. I'd just pray for them whenever they come to mind... like when it comes up again here on NazNet. If that means praying for them once and moving on, so be it. If it means praying for them a few times a day for a few days, so be it. Just whenever God or circumstances bring them to mind.

Unless, of course, you feel God nudging you to pray more persistently or extensively for them. In that case, as always, do what God tells you to do.

[David Gerber]

Sounds like a lot of the Psalms, 137 for example (about half of the Psalter is comprised of such lament psalms). It's too bad that we have developed the idea that prayer ought to be proper and respectfully pious.

Dennis, there have been times when I have taught this idea and some have been offended by the content of the prayers. I ask them to read the psalms and see what they find.

Proper and respectfully pious was not working for me. 'Honest' prayer did.

[Ryan Scott]

Well, then I'd appreciate some new advice. I was wrong first, I'm wrong again, apparently. Just say what I gotta do. Still willing to learn.

I'm not even necessarily saying it's wrong - just inconsistent. When we take a position that "they," whoever "they" may be, are wrong and not only wrong, but unwilling to listen to reason, we've taken the exact same position "they" have taken towards us.

I was merely pointing out, if we're going to address the issue with integrity, we can't allow ourselves to adopt a position we're challenging.

Perhaps it's more difficult for us because in this instance it's people who claim Christ. If we were talking about Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or any of the "militant atheists" out there it might be easier to pray for them without getting too worked up. I don't know.

I think of two children playing and one gets upset and turns his back on the other saying, "you're mean; I don't want to play with you anymore." We can't be the other child who also turns and says, "well I don't want to play with you either." We have to seek reconciliation, even if it gets us nowhere. And, if seeking reconciliation makes it too difficult to keep from "turning your back" none of us is going to think less of you if you just let it go.

[John Brickley]

I'm not even necessarily saying it's wrong - just inconsistent. When we take a position that "they," whoever "they" may be, are wrong and not only wrong, but unwilling to listen to reason, we've taken the exact same position "they" have taken towards us.

I was merely pointing out, if we're going to address the issue with integrity, we can't allow ourselves to adopt a position we're challenging.

Ryan,

While I appreciate your concern, what if they are unwilling to listen? Isn't it then naive to assume the contrary? I don't think it lacks integrity at all for Hans and anyone else for that matter to state that they are not willing to listen when everything about their behavior in the last 2 years bares that out. It is just observing their behavior. I do not think that we get anywhere by pretending that they (and by they I mean Manny, Tim, Grant, Joe, and perhaps a few others) are behaving in a way that they are not. I think Hans is exactly right when he says that nothing will change their behavior save death, conversion or the return of the Lord. And since all three of those things are out of our hands, I just don't see what more can be said or done.

We seek conversation for as long as we possibly can, then we need to shake the dust off our sandals and move on. It is a shame, and it is personally heartbreaking for me, but denying reality does not make it any easier. Though I heartily applaud the spirit in which you have written this I simply believe it does not correspond with the reality of the situation.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Dennis, there have been times when I have taught this idea and some have been offended by the content of the prayers. I ask them to read the psalms and see what they find.

Proper and respectfully pious was not working for me. 'Honest' prayer did.

FWIW: Here is a sermon on the topic of honesty before God from a series of renewal services that happened to coincide with the first anniversary of the OKC bombing: Letting go of the past: Psalm 22

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Ryan,

While I appreciate your concern, what if they are unwilling to listen? Isn't it then naive to assume the contrary? I don't think it lacks integrity at all for Hans and anyone else for that matter to state that they are not willing to listen when everything about their behavior in the last 2 years bares that out. It is just observing their behavior. I do not think that we get anywhere by pretending that they (and by they I mean Manny, Tim, Grant, Joe, and perhaps a few others) are behaving in a way that they are not. I think Hans is exactly right when he says that nothing will change their behavior save death, conversion or the return of the Lord. And since all three of those things are out of our hands, I just don't see what more can be said or done.

We seek conversation for as long as we possibly can, then we need to shake the dust off our sandals and move on. It is a shame, and it is personally heartbreaking for me, but denying reality does not make it any easier. Though I heartily applaud the spirit in which you have written this I simply believe it does not correspond with the reality of the situation.

I agree with much of what has been said. One thing that keeps getting left out. It is not just "them" [see names above]. There is also the larger community of Faith that is being targeted in an effort to win "hearts and minds" to a certain cause. As I have said several times before, it is clear to me that Hans is right, that none of these people are likely to change their minds (what Wesley called "invincible ignorance"). So it is not a matter of engaging "them."

Yet there are a lot of people out there to whom we have some responsibility, especially as ministers and educators. I have spoken out repeatedly on this issue, and to and about Tim Wirth, Manny Silva, and others, as well as some church leaders I have named (and some I haven't). And I will continue to do so. It is not because I need to win a theological argument, nor because I need to prove that I am right and they are wrong, nor because I need to change their minds. It is to provide a counter voice to the hateful attacks, personal agendas and ideologies in the guise of truth, distorted and uninformed theology, and misguided crusades that introduce division and schism, all of which I feel are damaging to the Body of Christ and this community of Faith. As I mentioned in another post, if there are no counter voices, people will assume that the loudest and most self-confident voices are the truth. Yet biblically, truth most often lay in the counter voices.

Some will argue that this is doing the same thing they are doing. If that means believing something and being willing to stand for it, then yes. But it is irresponsibly mistaken to argue that there is no difference between the "Concerned Nazarenes" folk and the challenges to them some have expressed, as I have seen intimated in a couple of posts. The ideas and issues can be, and need to be, discussed (which is nearly impossible in this climate; it's hard to discuss something with someone who is trying to burn you at the stake). But crusades and witch hunts coupled with slander and personal spins that amount to lies (many examples) all in the name of God cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged. The prophets did not remain silent, nor did Jesus, Paul, the early Church Fathers, Luther, nor Wesley. Do we really have a better take on what it means to love one another?

Also as I have said before, and agree, reality needs to play a factor. Sometimes, as Plutarch said, we need to call a spade a spade. Love does not exclude truth nor does it demand that we stand silent in the face of such wrong. Nowhere in Scripture do I find such a model. Even Jesus, who called us to love our enemies and pray for them, had no trouble taking on, sometimes in forceful action and strong language, those who had misunderstood what love is really about.

In this context, perhaps just saying "this is wrong" or "this is sinful" is as much an expression of love as remaining silent. How we say that becomes a test of whether love is the motive (note Jere 8:18-9:3).

But then others may see it differently.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Ryan Scott]

I do not think that we get anywhere by pretending that they (and by they I mean Manny, Tim, Grant, Joe, and perhaps a few others) are behaving in a way that they are not. I think Hans is exactly right when he says that nothing will change their behavior save death, conversion or the return of the Lord. And since all three of those things are out of our hands, I just don't see what more can be said or done.

I agree with you, but this assumes that our perspective on this is true. That what we are saying they're doing is actually what they're doing. They might disagree - the same way we would disagree with the characterization they're making of us. We're assuming our perspective is correct - we can believe that, but its still an opinion.

I'm fine with calls for more love, grace, and patience in their actions - those are required. But we also have to call ourselves to the same love, grace, and patience - even if we perceive they don't deserve it. They perceive we don't.

This is precisely what I was talking about with the us/them language. Just by using that form of speech, we essentially turn ourselves into what we're against. For "them," seeing and calling out a lack of genuine Christian belief and practice in others has led them to a position of a lack of Christian belief and practice. We have a choice - either to engage on the same level and thus prove what's been accused - or respond with grace, saying "maybe I am not right, let's figure this out together." We can't be responsible for their responses to "us," but we have to be responsible for our actions and responses.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm not even necessarily saying it's wrong - just inconsistent. When we take a position that "they," whoever "they" may be, are wrong and not only wrong, but unwilling to listen to reason, we've taken the exact same position "they" have taken towards us.

Yes. And to some extent, "they" are right.

Let's be clear on this. If someone tries to convince me I need a narrow minded view of the Scriptures and need to fight everyone who doesn't agree with me, no matter the costs to myself and my family, what exactly is the chance you think I will listen to that attempt? Zero! I will NOT listen. Would you? I doubt it, I dare say you are taking the very same position I take.

I was merely pointing out, if we're going to address the issue with integrity, we can't allow ourselves to adopt a position we're challenging.

I think integrity and honesty go together. They don't listen, we won't listen when it comes to the issue at hand. To deny that is to put your head in the sand.

Now let me be also clear on this: they are free to believe as they do! THAT is NOT the problem. For all I care people may believe that God dictated each and every word of the autographs. Be my guest! As long as you believe in the ecumenical creeds and act accordingly, you're a Christian. If you believe in the AoF of the CotN and act accordingly, you're a Nazarene. No problem.

The problem is in the behaviour. "We" (and I mean the regular writers on NazNet here, that share the historical view of Article IV) allow for room, "they" do not and try to rid the church of all those who believe like we do. THAT is the problem, not their beliefs in themselves.

Perhaps it's more difficult for us because in this instance it's people who claim Christ. If we were talking about Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or any of the "militant atheists" out there it might be easier to pray for them without getting too worked up. I don't know.

I never got worked up praying for them. Rather, I pity them and pray for the Lord's mercy on them.

I think of two children playing and one gets upset and turns his back on the other saying, "you're mean; I don't want to play with you anymore." We can't be the other child who also turns and says, "well I don't want to play with you either." We have to seek reconciliation, even if it gets us nowhere. And, if seeking reconciliation makes it too difficult to keep from "turning your back" none of us is going to think less of you if you just let it go.

I don't think this is a good illustration. It isn't a game, you know. Following Jesus is the most important thing in our lives. We're not playing.

[Hans Deventer]

or respond with grace, saying "maybe I am not right, let's figure this out together." We can't be responsible for their responses to "us," but we have to be responsible for our actions and responses.

Ryan, that's not the issue. I'm quite sure I'm not right and hence I give room in thinking. And in THAT, I believe I am right, and so do you. All I ask of others is to do the same. The answer is a deafening NO.

[John Brickley]

We have a choice - either to engage on the same level and thus prove what's been accused - or respond with grace, saying "maybe I am not right, let's figure this out together." We can't be responsible for their responses to "us," but we have to be responsible for our actions and responses.

Ryan,
I believe in responding in grace, and I believe that we should figure it out together so long as that is possible but I don't thinnk we gain anything by pretending that it is possible when that door has been closed. If they are not willing to enter into the kind of honest dialogue (which they have not demonstrated that they are) that is required to figure it out together, does it make it somehow more graceful to pretend that they are willing? I don't think grace excludes facing reality, and the reality is that they are not willing. So I have to agree with what Dennis is saying the issue here is not coming to agreement with Joe, Tim, Manny, and Grant rather it is honest exposing the incredible damage they are doing to the church and deceitful way they are doing it.

[Hans Deventer]

I think what we also need to take into consideration is the issue of self worth. People who are on a crusade don't do that for no reason. I don't know about Tim and Grant, but I do know that for Manny, all this comes at a considerable price. We should not underestimate that. The question then of course becomes, why continue if the price is that high? Not just for yourself, but also your family?

My guess is that it has become related to the issue of identity and self worth. Slowly on, people identify themselves with their cause. You could see it as an imagined prophet role, some kind of suffering servant for the truth. Now it is hard to suffer, but the idea that you'd have to admit that you've put your family through all of this for the wrong reasons, is so much worse, is unbearable. So once it has come this far, it is all but impossible to give up your views or admit mistakes. The suffering increases the determinacy.

Now if this is true, if, how to proceed? Direct attacks won't work, will be counter productive. Reasoning is no use. Anyone?

[Billy Cox]

I'm not sure actually mentioning the same names every time does anything to stop ourselves from generalizing.

I suppose that we could use the pastoral "we" which really means "I", but that sounds so selfish. When there is a dispute, 'us' and 'them' is unavoidable. Trying to 'word-game' our way around it is silly and pointless.

[Billy Cox]

I think what we also need to take into consideration is the issue of self worth. People who are on a crusade don't do that for no reason. I don't know about Tim and Grant, but I do know that for Manny, all this comes at a considerable price. We should not underestimate that. The question then of course becomes, why continue if the price is that high? Not just for yourself, but also your family?

What if the cost of relenting or surrendering is even higher than the price for continuing the crusade?

Now if this is true, if, how to proceed? Direct attacks won't work, will be counter productive. Reasoning is no use. Anyone?

In my case, I am thankful to not be important enough to be targeted, and I try to express my solidarity with those who are not so fortunate.

It seems that a regular refrain among the Concerned Nazarenes is their demand that the BGS 'do something' about the so-called situation. Maybe they presume that the BGS would draw a line in the sand and make liberal sympathizers unemployable in the CoTN. Or maybe they presume that the BGS would tell them to desist or leave, in which case they could leave as martyrs. The long and short of it is that I am not on the BGS, so what I say or think will not bring peace or unity.

[Ryan Scott]

Ryan,
I believe in responding in grace, and I believe that we should figure it out together so long as that is possible but I don't thinnk we gain anything by pretending that it is possible when that door has been closed. If they are not willing to enter into the kind of honest dialogue (which they have not demonstrated that they are) that is required to figure it out together, does it make it somehow more graceful to pretend that they are willing? I don't think grace excludes facing reality, and the reality is that they are not willing. So I have to agree with what Dennis is saying the issue here is not coming to agreement with Joe, Tim, Manny, and Grant rather it is honest exposing the incredible damage they are doing to the church and deceitful way they are doing it.

I'm not arguing this at all. When I began questioning the response, it wasn't the response in general, but some specific instances where we generalize about character. The damage is being done because of the way the "crusade" (for lack of a better word) is being waged - not because they're horrible people or part of some insidious plot.

My original objection is that we often use shorthand in this forum due to an assumption that most readers have a solid background understanding of the issues. We make the assumption that the discussion we've just had is already alive in the minds of readers. However, the words we actually use, when viewed without that background, look to be the same words being thrown in our direction, which hurts our reputation and the value others will place in what we have to say.

I was merely trying to caution all of us about our use of language and its unintended consequences.

I am all for standing up to proclaim what we believe. For calling people out who act in unloving and un-Christlike ways. It's vitally important that we avoid silence on such issues. We have a responsibility to speak. We also have a responsibility to remember that these are our brothers - even if they will not view us the same way.

What we have is a charge, in essence, that some among us are wolves in sheep's clothing, whether intentionally or through ignorance, leading God's people astray. The response needed to have (and the one I've seen most often here) is one of "we're not leading God's people astray - here's why I believe what I do and why I believe it's faithful to God and to scripture." There also needs to be a response that says, "The way you're going about expressing this opinion is decidedly outside the bounds of Christian behavior."

I'm less and less inclined to believe both responses can come from the same people. Or, maybe, we need to worry about the second response before we begin with the first?

All I know is that some of the posts here, when read without background knowledge, look awfully like the kind of un-Christian behavior the poster is trying to address, regardless of the substance of the argument.

Perhaps the response of those named should be, "maybe you're right about me, but in any event, you're not handling this in a way worthy of Christ." To me, that's the crux of the issue.

[Rich Schmidt]

Now if this is true, if, how to proceed? Direct attacks won't work, will be counter productive. Reasoning is no use. Anyone?

Well, we are in a thread about praying for them... I'd say that's a good way to proceed, especially when (as you describe) nothing else seems to be working.