Church management software in the cloud or not

[Rich Schmidt]

Salesforce non-profit edition operates on a different paradigm than most church management software. You will get the most value by customizing the system to support your organization. I'm curious as to what customizations are included with the non-profit edition.

MS Excel operates on a different paradigm, too, but apparently some people are using that successfully to track attendance & donations. I'm looking forward to trying to make Salesforce work.

[Rich Schmidt]

I stumbled across this and thought I might be able to save myself a lot of work getting Salesforce.com to work for our church... so now I'll save everyone else a lot of work by telling you what I found out in the online chat with their representative:

Me: I'm curious how much the "Worship Management" package costs.

akaCRM: It is not a package but an example of customizations that can be accomplished with salesforce.com and the Force.com cloud platform.
...
akaCRM: Typically a new implementation is about 40-50 hours of effort for the basics... We charge $215/hour.

Me: Ah. Way out of our price range. My impression from your website was that the "Worship Management application" or "set of native Force.com applications" was available for sale. I guess that's not the case...?

akaCRM: correct.

Yowza! I figured it would be something like that, since I couldn't find a price anywhere on their site... but the way they talk about it as an "application" makes it sound like it's packaged already in a way that can be installed in Salesforce.com. Apparently I still have a lot to learn...

[Kevin Rector]

Take a serious look at Salesforce.com cloud-based customer relationship management system.
http://www.salesforcefoundation.org/...rofit_solution

Salesforce is very friendly to non-profits (501c3) and grants 10 free licenses for their Enterprise Edition along with some non-profit specific add-ons. Corporations typically pay about $1,000 per user per year for these licenses, so this is not a stripped-down version. It is a highly customizable system, so you can modify it to accommodate your organization.

I have administered a corporate Salesforce system for a couple of years, so if you want to give it a shot, I would be willing to lend a hand in setting it up...gratis.

I spent the evening looking at Salesforce and it does seem to be a pretty robust system, but I'm having a hard time seeing how I can make this a very easy to use system for the people in my church.

[Rich Schmidt]

I spent the evening looking at Salesforce and it does seem to be a pretty robust system, but I'm having a hard time seeing how I can make this a very easy to use system for the people in my church.

That's the part I'm struggling with, too. I keep thinking, "Surely some church has already figured this out... and written about it somewhere online..." but I'm not finding it. I see things by people who were trying it... a couple years ago... but nothing saying, "We've been using it for a while now. Here's what seems to work best."

[Billy Cox]

I stumbled across this and thought I might be able to save myself a lot of work getting Salesforce.com to work for our church... so now I'll save everyone else a lot of work by telling you what I found out in the online chat with their representative:



Yowza! I figured it would be something like that, since I couldn't find a price anywhere on their site... but the way they talk about it as an "application" makes it sound like it's packaged already in a way that can be installed in Salesforce.com. Apparently I still have a lot to learn...

Yes, there are any number of consultants who are looking to serve the larger non-profits with deeper pockets.

You should speak with a rep at Salesforce. They provide a high level of service and support to non-profits, all for free. They have a company policy setting aside a percentage of their man hours to support non-profits.

[Billy Cox]

That's the part I'm struggling with, too. I keep thinking, "Surely some church has already figured this out... and written about it somewhere online..." but I'm not finding it. I see things by people who were trying it... a couple years ago... but nothing saying, "We've been using it for a while now. Here's what seems to work best."

I'm not sure to what extent Salesforce markets to non-profits or whether they just depend on word-of-mouth. I have been a Salesforce admin/developer for over two years and I only recently became aware of the free licenses for non-profits.

This implementation checklist offers a no-spin way of evaluating whether Salesforce could work for your church.
http://www.salesforcefoundation.org/...donation/right

#1 especially is make or break:

Do you have a dedicated staff person or volunteer with a basic technical understanding who will project manage your implementation and customization, as well as champion the use of salesforce to your staff and Board?

Again, I can offer assistance with implementation and customization, but it has to be somebody's baby.

[Billy Cox]

I spent the evening looking at Salesforce and it does seem to be a pretty robust system, but I'm having a hard time seeing how I can make this a very easy to use system for the people in my church.

At its simplest level, Salesforce can function as a contact manager. Where you go from there is simply a matter of what you want it to do and whether you have someone who will learn to customize the system. The cool thing about Salesforce is that you can pose questions and get ideas from the wider Salesforce user community as well as hooking up with some pro bono consulting and development.

I was at a KC Salesforce users group meeting last week and there were at least two non-profit organizations present. But obviously, if Excel or your current church management system is doing the job and you can't imagine how Salesforce would make your church operate better, then I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise.

[Rich Schmidt]

This implementation checklist offers a no-spin way of evaluating whether Salesforce could work for your church.
http://www.salesforcefoundation.org/...donation/right

#1 especially is make or break:


Again, I can offer assistance with implementation and customization, but it has to be somebody's baby.

It would be my baby. I'd be the one who trains the volunteer or part-time office person how to enter people's information, including attendance & giving.

It's starting to look to me like Salesforce is great for Contact Management... but not so great when it comes to tracking groups of people attending services and giving regularly. Dedicated church management software is tailored to make entering & tracking those kinds of data simple and streamlined. I'm not sure how customizable data entry processes are with Salesforce... but my guess is that it will take someone quite a bit longer to enter, say, the Sunday morning worship attendance or this week's offerings in SF than it would in just about any of the dedicated ChMS packages.

But I could be wrong. I'll keep looking into it.

[Billy Cox]

It would be my baby. I'd be the one who trains the volunteer or part-time office person how to enter people's information, including attendance & giving.

It's starting to look to me like Salesforce is great for Contact Management... but not so great when it comes to tracking groups of people attending services and giving regularly. Dedicated church management software is tailored to make entering & tracking those kinds of data simple and streamlined. I'm not sure how customizable data entry processes are with Salesforce... but my guess is that it will take someone quite a bit longer to enter, say, the Sunday morning worship attendance or this week's offerings in SF than it would in just about any of the dedicated ChMS packages.

But I could be wrong. I'll keep looking into it.

How do other CMS packages handle data entry for attendance and offerings? As far as Salesforce goes, it could be something as simple as a onscreen roster with a checkbox to indicate present.

[Rich Schmidt]

How do other CMS packages handle data entry for attendance and offerings? As far as Salesforce goes, it could be something as simple as a onscreen roster with a checkbox to indicate present.

That sounds good & probably compares well to others. I guess I was looking at the donations part the other day and wondering how that would work.

The ChMS we've been using (Church Helpmate 2004, I think) has you open a "batch" of donations for that week's offering, and then lets you search for the household, enter the amount, type, fund, split between funds, etc. It's all pretty quick. What I was looking at with Salesforce makes me think it might be tricky to "batch" a week's worth of donations together...? Like we'd have to find the person, make a new donation, etc, individually. Or maybe not. Maybe "campaigns" would work for that? But a separate campaign every week? Seems a bit odd.

Edited to add: I forgot. That same person renamed "Opportunity" as "Contribution." Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know.

Anyway... hopefully I'll have time to get through the donation/grant request process soon & can start playing with it. I'm thinking right now that I will NOT be using the Nonprofit Starter Pack but will instead follow the example of this person, who just uses Accounts as Households, whereas the Nonprofit Stater Pack creates a whole new Household object and does funky stuff with Accounts. We'll see how it goes once I have a chance to start playing with it.

[Greg Gates]

ME wold cost $133-185/yr. It's by far the cheapest, but the user interface looks so dated that I'm not sure I could make myself use it.
So... Anyone want to add further thoughts/comments/experiences?

• Membership Edge has accurate queries (many, unbelievably, don't)
• cheapest price
• interacts seamlessly with my website
• works like a dream on mobile devices
• whenever I have a question I get a super quick response
• great calendar, small groups, attendance, financial giving records (and more) functions

I was looking for something that worked great and membership edge does. My 2 cents.

[Billy Cox]

That sounds good & probably compares well to others. I guess I was looking at the donations part the other day and wondering how that would work.

The ChMS we've been using (Church Helpmate 2004, I think) has you open a "batch" of donations for that week's offering, and then lets you search for the household, enter the amount, type, fund, split between funds, etc. It's all pretty quick. What I was looking at with Salesforce makes me think it might be tricky to "batch" a week's worth of donations together...? Like we'd have to find the person, make a new donation, etc, individually. Or maybe not. Maybe "campaigns" would work for that? But a separate campaign every week? Seems a bit odd.

Edited to add: I forgot. That same person renamed "Opportunity" as "Contribution." Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know.

Anyway... hopefully I'll have time to get through the donation/grant request process soon & can start playing with it. I'm thinking right now that I will NOT be using the Nonprofit Starter Pack but will instead follow the example of this person, who just uses Accounts as Households, whereas the Nonprofit Stater Pack creates a whole new Household object and does funky stuff with Accounts. We'll see how it goes once I have a chance to start playing with it.

The App Exchange has some utilities for integrating Salesforce with various bookkeeping/accounting software. Quickbooks is one, I'm sure there are others. Campaigns are a tool for managing your marketing/fundraising efforts.

When you submit your grant paperwork, Salesforce will assign you an account rep who can answer your questions and help you evaluate Salesforce.

[Abraham Williams]

I have two very good programs... one web based and one software based....the web based was connection power and the software based one was People driven software...there is pros and cons to both...but I love connection power it is user friendly and does what you need it too and keeps track of everything you need.

[Rich Schmidt]

Digging this old thread up one more time... to say that we're seriously considering something new called "realm" by ACS Technologies. It's new enough that it's not on their main site yet. It's been known as "Stratus beta" for the past several months. Here's their wiki page on it: http://wiki.acstechnologies.com/disp...alm/Realm+Home

Apparently, it's priced according to average weekly attendance, which for us means it would cost us $20/month. I don't know what the tiers are, because I'm not the one who's been talking to them... but I'm going to find out.

Has anyone had any experience with these folks? They're one of the big names in the field... and it's looking like this will be a solid product for smaller churches.

BTW, I never did go through the grant process with SalesForce. I just couldn't muster the energy to re-imagine it for church use... especially since it'll be used by volunteers or very-part-time staff folks. I think it'll be worth $240/year to skip that work.

[Billy Cox]

BTW, I never did go through the grant process with SalesForce. I just couldn't muster the energy to re-imagine it for church use... especially since it'll be used by volunteers or very-part-time staff folks. I think it'll be worth $240/year to skip that work.

I figured that Salesforce would be a no-go. It's really geared for a larger non-profit that has full-time business analysts and IT people. The GMC is positioned to do it...small churches, not so much.

[Rich Schmidt]

I figured that Salesforce would be a no-go. It's really geared for a larger non-profit that has full-time business analysts and IT people. The GMC is positioned to do it...small churches, not so much.

What if the GMC were to have someone create all the modifications needed for SF to really work well... and then make that freely available to all Nazarene churches? That would be a good investment, I'd think!

[Billy Cox]

What if the GMC were to have someone create all the modifications needed for SF to really work well... and then make that freely available to all Nazarene churches? That would be a good investment, I'd think!

Agree. Salesforce.com has an app exchange, and developing a free app (or suite of apps) would add tremendous value to local congregations.

[Kevin Rector]

It's amazing to me how I just can't pull the trigger on any of these systems. I really would like a good CMS, but there are far too many to choose from.

[Rich Schmidt]

It's amazing to me how I just can't pull the trigger on any of these systems. I really would like a good CMS, but there are far too many to choose from.

We've been fairly happy with Realm so far. Not too complicated, and not too pricey.

[Kevin Rector]

I just ordered Realm. The City is now owned by ACSTechnologies which also owns Realm. I wonder how much cross-over in the development there is or will be.

I justified the economics like this. It will cost us $29 a month and we bring in something like $14,000 to $16,000 a month... so yeah we can afford it.

[Kevin Rector]

Hey Rich, go on their GetSatisfaction page and +1 my three ideas that I posted.

[Alisa Stoll]

We have used Church Windows for years. I'm the volunteer who does the data entry and reports for attendance. The church secretary or the treasurer's spouse (administrative assistant volunteer) process the donations each week. The treasurer/spouse use the accounting package. The spouse uses the payroll to pay the staff. We use the networked desktop version so the initial expense was not cheap, the yearly support cost/upgrade is pretty good. At the end of the year, it simplifies the denominational reports and also "spits" out the yearly giving statements (though I have to admit it took three tries to get mine right but that was because of some special gifts that I didn't want generally known).

Alisa

[Houston Thomas]

I just ordered Realm. The City is now owned by ACSTechnologies which also owns Realm. I wonder how much cross-over in the development there is or will be.

I justified the economics like this. It will cost us $29 a month and we bring in something like $14,000 to $16,000 a month... so yeah we can afford it.

Do you use the Online giving part of Realm? If so, do you mind sharing what the fees are?

[Kevin Rector]

Do you use the Online giving part of Realm? If so, do you mind sharing what the fees are?

We don't use that part.

[Jason Sandefer]

Hello,
I ran across this forum today while doing further data management research on cloud solutions. I have spent hours of research over the last few months on this very subject, so I thought I'd share my experience in case it helps anyone. My specific interest has been a need for a Mothers Day Out program (in Conway Arkansas).

I found that Salesforce is a very robust and capable online database. With what I've seen I'm convinced it can do almost anything; including managing church data. My main concern with Salesforce was it's pricing. I met with a SF consultant and learned that there's more to pricing than what first meets the eye. First of all, for non-profit organizations, the program is FREE! I had a hard time wrapping my head around that. Then for non non-profits, it's between $150 and $200 per month for all needed features. This is obviously more than what others are paying for programs in this forum but I can almost guarantee that SF can match any feature head to head and will even have other features these other programs don't have. Since it's custom, it can be built to meet any need that may arise.

While researching I found several other forums of people who have used SF for their church. They used it to manage membership records and donations. I'm about half way through in working with this school but my next project will be SF for our church. We're a pretty good size church here in town but I think it'll fit in just fine. Our church currently uses Church Power- its a program back from the 90's in desperate need of updating!

So if anyone has any questions about SF and how it may work for school/church I'm glad to provide any information I can.

Following is a brief list of some of the features we're using (for free). All of this is custom built so you can get an idea of some of the things it can do.
- Student and Teacher record management
- Teacher attendance management including automatic emails sent to teachers when they reach a certain number of absences
- Student Immunization management- including automatic reports/emails showing students who are missing immunizations
- Form automation
- We'll also be managing financials soon
- Integration with school website
- Online giving and giving management

[Rich Schmidt]

Following is a brief list of some of the features we're using (for free). All of this is custom built so you can get an idea of some of the things it can do.

The problem for most of us is that the "custom built" part of it doesn't come free.

[Jonathan Hooker]

Hey everyone,

Our church is going through this same research phase and I was curious if anyone has looked at BVCMS? (http://www.bvcms.com/) They look like they have most of the needs of the church - not all but most... They have made it open source so it is free and they do have an active development community. Admittedly there is some risk in open source but I am also a former linux server administrator so I am familiar to those. Basically I want to know if anyone has seen it and outside of the risks already mentioned in my post, what do you think?

Thanks,

Jonathan

As a side note, when you go to the main page it shows their hosted version but the info is still the same. The following page has the info on the download. http://devblog.bvcms.com/

[Rich Schmidt]

Hey everyone,

Our church is going through this same research phase and I was curious if anyone has looked at BVCMS? (http://www.bvcms.com/) They look like they have most of the needs of the church - not all but most... They have made it open source so it is free and they do have an active development community. Admittedly there is some risk in open source but I am also a former linux server administrator so I am familiar to those. Basically I want to know if anyone has seen it and outside of the risks already mentioned in my post, what do you think?

Thanks,

Jonathan

As a side note, when you go to the main page it shows their hosted version but the info is still the same. The following page has the info on the download. http://devblog.bvcms.com/

I wasn't aware of it until now. It looks interesting. But since it's dependent on Microsoft server tech, we'd never be able to self-host it.

Maybe when it's time for us to re-evaluate Realm we'll consider this one as an alternative.

[Kevin Rector]

Hello,
I ran across this forum today while doing further data management research on cloud solutions. I have spent hours of research over the last few months on this very subject, so I thought I'd share my experience in case it helps anyone. My specific interest has been a need for a Mothers Day Out program (in Conway Arkansas).

I found that Salesforce is a very robust and capable online database. With what I've seen I'm convinced it can do almost anything; including managing church data. My main concern with Salesforce was it's pricing. I met with a SF consultant and learned that there's more to pricing than what first meets the eye. First of all, for non-profit organizations, the program is FREE! I had a hard time wrapping my head around that. Then for non non-profits, it's between $150 and $200 per month for all needed features. This is obviously more than what others are paying for programs in this forum but I can almost guarantee that SF can match any feature head to head and will even have other features these other programs don't have. Since it's custom, it can be built to meet any need that may arise.

While researching I found several other forums of people who have used SF for their church. They used it to manage membership records and donations. I'm about half way through in working with this school but my next project will be SF for our church. We're a pretty good size church here in town but I think it'll fit in just fine. Our church currently uses Church Power- its a program back from the 90's in desperate need of updating!

So if anyone has any questions about SF and how it may work for school/church I'm glad to provide any information I can.

Following is a brief list of some of the features we're using (for free). All of this is custom built so you can get an idea of some of the things it can do.
- Student and Teacher record management
- Teacher attendance management including automatic emails sent to teachers when they reach a certain number of absences
- Student Immunization management- including automatic reports/emails showing students who are missing immunizations
- Form automation
- We'll also be managing financials soon
- Integration with school website
- Online giving and giving management

Hey there, welcome to Naznet. You're in Conway eh? Well welcome neighbor. I got a Salesforce license for our church, but it was fairly opaque in what I needed to do to customize it to work well for my church. I am a former computer programmer so tech is not something I'm scared of, but I just didn't have the time to take away from pastoring my church in order to customize it the way I would need.

Our church is using Realm, and while it is FAR from an ideal solution for a Nazarene church, it is pretty good and getting better all the time (they have a pretty responsive development cycle, I've already made several suggestions to their customer liaisons that have been implemented in the software).

[Billy Cox]

I got a Salesforce license for our church, but it was fairly opaque in what I needed to do to customize it to work well for my church. I am a former computer programmer so tech is not something I'm scared of, but I just didn't have the time to take away from pastoring my church in order to customize it the way I would need.

In another season of my life, I would have built the congregation-specific customizations for Salesforce, and then packaged it as a CMS system for sale to congregations.

There is opportunity here for someone with some sales ability.

[Rich Schmidt]

Do you use the Online giving part of Realm? If so, do you mind sharing what the fees are?

We don't use that part.

We're about to start using it.

Here's a link to the .pdf file with their fees: http://wiki.acstechnologies.com/down...=1353100005834

Here's a link to their help wiki with some more info: http://wiki.acstechnologies.com/disp...+Online+Giving

Right now, VANCO (the company Realm partners with for the work of it) is waiving the $50 registration fee for churches. So there shouldn't be any upfront costs, and no monthly costs apart from the fees that go with transactions.