+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 76 of 76

Thread: Alcohol

  1. #1
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Alcohol

    I don't have anything worked out yet. I just know that I want to submit a resolution changing the alcohol paragraph to something that moves us away from a prohibitionist stance on it. I figured I'd get the ball rolling by starting the thread, if that's OK.

    Do any of you have the texts of previous proposals on this issue? Do you remember how the voting and/or discussion went?
    Thanks Jeremy D. Scott, David Pettigrew, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  2. #2
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Denison, Texas, United States
    Posts
    2,819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    It would be tough to improve on the 2013 resolution. Maybe it could be resubmitted?
    Thanks Jeremy D. Scott - "thanks" for this post

  3. #3
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by David Pettigrew View Post
    It would be tough to improve on the 2013 resolution. Maybe it could be resubmitted?
    The 2013 resolution only addressed the 900 section on alcohol desocialization. If you wanted to move away from a prohibitionist stand you'd also have to modify the Covenant of Christian Conduct.
    God is really good.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  4. #4
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    How about this:

    Remove paragraphs 903.13, 903.14, 903.15, 903.16 as redundant.

    Remove paragraphs 29.5 and 29.6.

    Replace all of that will a section on caring for the human body including the following themes: love for others, discernment, creation care, temperate living, being sober minded, & avoiding addictions.

    Personally I'd like to see the entire Covenant of Christian Conduct be completely re-written or entirely removed. It's so all over the place.
    God is really good.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Hobart, Indiana, United States
    Posts
    1,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    It does need a systematic rewrite. The editing is so choppy, and it is a bit scattered.

  6. #6
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I don't know that we need to move from a prohibitionist stance, necessarily, as we need to move from a stance that implies alcohol consumption is inherently sinful.

    I have some language I've been working on - this is a first draft, really, and incomplete, but we might as well share it. By the way, there's zero chance any resolution allowing Nazarenes to drink will pass; large portions of our denomination outside the US have been preaching "alcohol is inherently sinful" for a very long time. Even making a statement to the contrary will be difficult. One of the statements from the floor at the last GA said something to the effect of, "We've struggled to preach the message of drinking as sin for a long time and sacrificed a lot to hold the line; we can't change that message now."

    To me, the way forward is recognizing that our position is a specific, not universal, calling. Anyway, here's what I have so far:

    Recognizing that consumption of alcohol, in moderation, is, in itself, not inherently sinful, we do take note of the pain and trauma suffered by individuals and families as a result of alcohol abuse and addiction. Society often prefers to hide, ignore, or ostracize these problems.

    From its earliest days, the Church of the Nazarene exhibited a special calling to ministry among the poor, lost, and forgotten as primary vocation; our first General Superintendent, Phineas Bresee, famously said, “The poor will always have a front row seat in the Church of the Nazarene.” Because of this special calling, we ask our members to refrain from alcohol and other intoxicating substances as a symbol of solidarity with those who suffer.

    Recognizing this may make some social interaction more difficult, we believe this is the cost of our calling to suffer with and for those who struggle with addiction and those hurt by this terrible problem. While acknowledging this is not the calling of God for all people or the only way to faithfully respond to addiction, we joyfully make the choice to abstain in response to the biblical mandate of self-giving love for our brothers and sisters.
    ...just my $.02.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    How about this:

    Remove paragraphs 903.13, 903.14, 903.15, 903.16 as redundant.

    Remove paragraphs 29.5 and 29.6.

    Replace all of that will a section on caring for the human body including the following themes: love for others, discernment, creation care, temperate living, being sober minded, & avoiding addictions.

    Personally I'd like to see the entire Covenant of Christian Conduct be completely re-written or entirely removed. It's so all over the place.
    I think their is value in much of the covenant of Christian conduct if it were understood as wise council rather than rules used to exclude people from full participation in the life of the church. I also think you are more likely, maybe less unlikely, to get something passed if some sort of language about these issues stays in. I'm good with some sort of caution about alcohol that points out the difference between driving a camel drunk and driving 2 tons of steel drunk. Also something that points out our need to protect those in recovery who are a part of our community so don't ever offer someone from church a drink, you don't know their struggles.

    I've found this sort of counsel about drinking to be very well received. Still, I doubt that anything that seriously weakens our stance will pass but we need to keep challenging it.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  8. #8
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Torrington Wyoming
    Posts
    1,697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I don't have specific language but here is my heart on the issue.

    I would remove any inference that drinking alcohol is sinful. I also question membership requirements that would prevent Jesus from being a member.

    I would however state our position on how alcohol can be destructive and we encourage our members to sacrifice for the benefit of their neighbors.

    Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk

  9. #9
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I don't know that we need to move from a prohibitionist stance.
    I think we do. The prohibitionist stance implies that drinking is inherently sinful when it is not. If we can not remove prohibitionist language I would like at the least to specifically say that drinking is not sinful (as your statement does).

    Personally I do not see why we think we have a moral right to prohibit that which is not prohibited in scripture. I think it wise to have strongly worded cautions and very strongly worded statements against self-destructive behaviors (beyond just alcohol) and against addictive behaviors. I don't even think we need a list of things that are bad for you - the scriptures do a good job of providing that already.

    Our position should be that that where scripture is permissive or silent we do not prohibit, where scripture clearly prohibits we do as well.
    God is really good.
    Thanks Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  10. #10
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    I think we do. The prohibitionist stance implies that drinking is inherently sinful when it is not. If we can not remove prohibitionist language I would like at the least to specifically say that drinking is not sinful (as your statement does).

    Personally I do not see why we think we have a moral right to prohibit that which is not prohibited in scripture. I think it wise to have strongly worded cautions and very strongly worded statements against self-destructive behaviors (beyond just alcohol) and against addictive behaviors. I don't even think we need a list of things that are bad for you - the scriptures do a good job of providing that already.

    Our position should be that that where scripture is permissive or silent we do not prohibit, where scripture clearly prohibits we do as well.
    If we go there, why have a denomination, quite honestly? Our theology isn't unique to us. The only unique element we bring to Christianity is a specific mission to the poor. I think rooting our stance on alcohol in our historic position among the suffering and the outcast allows people to make individual decisions. It might be a draft, but I specifically used the phrase, "we ask..." because I think it's perfectly acceptable to members to choose otherwise; it just feels to me that if we continue to sever our ties with our founding we increasingly have no real reason to exist as an organization.

    To me, the arguments against prohibition reduce the idea to something individualistic. Yes, sure, the act of drinking alcohol on an individual level, without context, is perfectly acceptable. At the same time, context matters. The context of our denomination is to minister among the poor and suffering - where alcohol takes a harsher toll than in other places.

    I think about the kids we knew in one congregation, in a home where both parents were alcoholics, with lots of family history. We had to take them out for dinner one night when a drunken afternoon left the mom unable to do the 12th birthday party she had been planning for a month. I think about that and realize, if we had alcohol in our fridge or drank even socially, we've lost the chance to really impact those kids.

    Now, I recognize that this is a personal conviction and not a universal, but it seems to me that this is an example of the kind of relationships our denomination was founded to be in the middle of. We have a prohibition on alcohol, not because it's sinful, but because our specific call is to the kind of people harmed by alcohol, and it would be sinful to partake because of that call.

    In the end this comes down to the question of "are we going to be more broadly defined or are we going to stick to our historic calling," I don't think there's a wrong answer there, but I do have an opinion (clearly). I think, by and large, our work around the world continues to be with the marginalized and it's a good thing to continue. I do think we need a statement that says as much and one with grace to allow for grace in our membership.

    I'd like to see us keep a communal, denominational position of abstinence, but allow for individuals to make their own decisions. It seems the best combination of honoring our history and also living grace.
    ...just my $.02.
    Thanks Mike Schutz, Conrad Herman, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  11. #11
    Senior Member Steve Malcolm's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Millinocket, Maine
    Posts
    558
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I don't have time to write a full response at the moment, but I would vote in favor of Ryan's proposal. I wouldn't vote to remove the prohibition altogether.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Jeremy D. Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Hanover, Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    2,164
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I feel like some are equating abstinence with prohibition.

    Abstinence says, "We are not going to participate in this."
    Prohibition says, "We are going to work to make sure no one else does either."

    It comes down to ecclesiology for me: Is it our task to rid the whole world of sin or to stand as a holy people in the midst of sinfulness?

  13. #13
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy D. Scott View Post
    I feel like some are equating abstinence with prohibition.

    Abstinence says, "We are not going to participate in this."
    Prohibition says, "We are going to work to make sure no one else does either."

    It comes down to ecclesiology for me: Is it our task to rid the whole world of sin or to stand as a holy people in the midst of sinfulness?
    I was talking prohibition in the sense we're prohibiting Nazarenes, not the historic notion of alcohol prohibition; I figure that's pretty anachronistic at this point. But point taken. Abstinence makes sense - I do think there are vestiges of legal prohibition that remain. That's problematic.
    ...just my $.02.
    Thanks Conrad Herman - "thanks" for this post

  14. #14
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Torrington Wyoming
    Posts
    1,697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Anything we determine one must or must not do for membership we are saying is an essential. If we view it as an essential then we certainly must believe it is essential to God.

    I think what Jeremy says is correct. If we take our positions from the wrong foundation then they are not going to pass inspection. Our requirements for membership should be the desire to follow Jesus and seek to live in the unique manner in which we as Nazarene serve God.

    Our requirements must not be based upon the full and complete transformation from sinner to sanctified but rather on full permission of the church to speak into their lives and to assist them with their continued transformation which includes acceptance of our foundational stance regarding social issues. In other words, we invite you to join us even though you don't yet look like us, but please know that this is who we are and who we expect all who claim the title Nazarene to work towards.

    Our foundation and stance would be built on one of health, spiritually, emotionally, physically, and financially. Additionally our determination would be one of selfless sacrifice for the hope of reaching the lost which includes restricting our freedoms as needed to serve those who suffer afflictions. Alcohol certainly is of paramount concern, but so are a number of addictions including recreational drugs, smoking, gambling, pornography, and food. How we respond in these areas can serve as condemnation or opportunity to move toward a position of health and healing.

    I pray that we move toward a clear language that recognizes the issues without declaring that the participation in these activities precludes one from membership. May we instead lift up our desire to sacrifice in order to better serve.



    Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk
    Thanks Mike Schutz, David Graham - "thanks" for this post

  15. #15
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    How about this:

    Remove paragraphs 903.13, 903.14, 903.15, 903.16 as redundant.

    Remove paragraphs 29.5 and 29.6.

    Replace all of that will a section on caring for the human body including the following themes: love for others, discernment, creation care, temperate living, being sober minded, & avoiding addictions.

    Personally I'd like to see the entire Covenant of Christian Conduct be completely re-written or entirely removed. It's so all over the place.
    I'd like to see something similar... and I guess that will never happen if such a proposal isn't made... but I'd like to get something specific on the alcohol section done, in case the "total rewrite" proposal disappears into a committee for another 4-8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I don't know that we need to move from a prohibitionist stance, necessarily, as we need to move from a stance that implies alcohol consumption is inherently sinful.

    I have some language I've been working on - this is a first draft, really, and incomplete, but we might as well share it. By the way, there's zero chance any resolution allowing Nazarenes to drink will pass; large portions of our denomination outside the US have been preaching "alcohol is inherently sinful" for a very long time. Even making a statement to the contrary will be difficult. One of the statements from the floor at the last GA said something to the effect of, "We've struggled to preach the message of drinking as sin for a long time and sacrificed a lot to hold the line; we can't change that message now."

    To me, the way forward is recognizing that our position is a specific, not universal, calling. Anyway, here's what I have so far:
    Recognizing that consumption of alcohol, in moderation, is, in itself, not inherently sinful, we do take note of the pain and trauma suffered by individuals and families as a result of alcohol abuse and addiction. Society often prefers to hide, ignore, or ostracize these problems.

    From its earliest days, the Church of the Nazarene exhibited a special calling to ministry among the poor, lost, and forgotten as primary vocation; our first General Superintendent, Phineas Bresee, famously said, “The poor will always have a front row seat in the Church of the Nazarene.” Because of this special calling, we ask our members to refrain from alcohol and other intoxicating substances as a symbol of solidarity with those who suffer.

    Recognizing this may make some social interaction more difficult, we believe this is the cost of our calling to suffer with and for those who struggle with addiction and those hurt by this terrible problem. While acknowledging this is not the calling of God for all people or the only way to faithfully respond to addiction, we joyfully make the choice to abstain in response to the biblical mandate of self-giving love for our brothers and sisters.
    We definitely need to be clear that alcohol isn't inherently sinful. But my preference would be to go further and move away from a denomination-wide call to abstinence, even for the sake of the poor. The situations are just too varied, in my opinion, and blanket prohibitions short-cut real thought and wrestling with the issue... in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    It might be a draft, but I specifically used the phrase, "we ask..." because I think it's perfectly acceptable to members to choose otherwise; it just feels to me that if we continue to sever our ties with our founding we increasingly have no real reason to exist as an organization.
    If it's interpreted in that way, then I'd have to problem with it. However, I think your final "we joyfully make the choice to abstain" undercuts the idea that members could choose otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    To me, the arguments against prohibition reduce the idea to something individualistic. Yes, sure, the act of drinking alcohol on an individual level, without context, is perfectly acceptable. At the same time, context matters. The context of our denomination is to minister among the poor and suffering - where alcohol takes a harsher toll than in other places.

    I think about the kids we knew in one congregation, in a home where both parents were alcoholics, with lots of family history. We had to take them out for dinner one night when a drunken afternoon left the mom unable to do the 12th birthday party she had been planning for a month. I think about that and realize, if we had alcohol in our fridge or drank even socially, we've lost the chance to really impact those kids.
    Obviously, I don't know those kids... but I can't think of why having alcohol in your fridge would've made your loving care for them any less impactful. They still would have seen you ask examples of people who aren't drunkards, who care deeply for them, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    I think their is value in much of the covenant of Christian conduct if it were understood as wise council rather than rules used to exclude people from full participation in the life of the church. I also think you are more likely, maybe less unlikely, to get something passed if some sort of language about these issues stays in. I'm good with some sort of caution about alcohol that points out the difference between driving a camel drunk and driving 2 tons of steel drunk. Also something that points out our need to protect those in recovery who are a part of our community so don't ever offer someone from church a drink, you don't know their struggles.

    I've found this sort of counsel about drinking to be very well received. Still, I doubt that anything that seriously weakens our stance will pass but we need to keep challenging it.
    I agree that there is value there, IF it's not used to exclude. Perhaps that should be a separate resolution: bringing clarity to membership requirements and the role the Covenant of Christian Conduct plays there.

    If we move to a position that allows members to drink, I think it would still make all kinds of sense to prohibit (or at least warn against and train pastors against) serving alcohol at church functions, including group meetings in homes, etc.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, Lucas Finch, David Graham - "thanks" for this post

  16. #16
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Denison, Texas, United States
    Posts
    2,819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    What I hate to see happen is for the GA to continue to ignore this issue until it is a moot point and legislation has to keep up with reality. That's what happened with movies. Originally we boycotted the motion picture industry out of social justice concerns, but of course it morphed into "going into this building is sinful". Then with the advent of VCRs, suddenly watching the same movies in your living room was permitted. It took a generation of pretending that made sense before the prohibition language was replaced with "use your own judgement". Seems to me emphasizing a Christian entertainment ethic instead of lifting a prohibition would have made more sense.

    If we keep ignoring the alcohol issue until the prohibition is simply lifted, will it send the same message - "drink freely!" (seems I've read that somewhere...)? Perhaps that's inevitable.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by David Pettigrew View Post
    What I hate to see happen is for the GA to continue to ignore this issue until it is a moot point and legislation has to keep up with reality. That's what happened with movies. Originally we boycotted the motion picture industry out of social justice concerns, but of course it morphed into "going into this building is sinful". Then with the advent of VCRs, suddenly watching the same movies in your living room was permitted. It took a generation of pretending that made sense before the prohibition language was replaced with "use your own judgement". Seems to me emphasizing a Christian entertainment ethic instead of lifting a prohibition would have made more sense.

    If we keep ignoring the alcohol issue until the prohibition is simply lifted, will it send the same message - "drink freely!" (seems I've read that somewhere...)? Perhaps that's inevitable.
    Yep, spot on.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Gina Stevenson, John F Martin - "thanks" for this post

  18. #18
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    RESOLVED:

    That paragraph 29.5 be amended as follows:

    29.5. The use of [intoxicating liquors as a beverage, or trafficking therein; giving influence to, or voting for, the licensing of places for the sale of the same; using illicit drugs or trafficking therein; using of] tobacco in any of its forms, or trafficking therein.

    In light of the Holy Scriptures and [human experience concerning the ruinous consequences of the use of alcohol as a beverage, and in light of] the findings of medical science regarding the detrimental effect of [both alcohol and] tobacco to the body and mind, as a community of faith committed to the pursuit of a holy life, our position and practice is abstinence rather than moderation. Holy Scripture teaches that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. [With loving regard for ourselves and others, we call our people to total abstinence from all intoxicants.
    Furthermore, our Christian social responsibility calls us to use any legitimate and legal means to minimize the availability of both beverage alcohol and tobacco to others. The widespread incidence of alcohol abuse in our world demands that we embody a position that stands as a witness to others. (903.14-903.16)]


    FURTHER RESOLVED:

    That paragraph 29.6 be amended as follows:

    29.6. The use of illicit drugs or trafficking therein including [T]the unprescribed use of hallucinogenics, stimulants, and depressants, and the misuse and abuse of regularly prescribed medicines. Prescribed medicines should [O]only be used on competent medical advice and under medical supervision [should such drugs be used].

    FURTHER RESOLVED:

    That a new paragraph be added after 29.6 and all subsequent paragraphs be renumbered accordingly. This new paragraph reads as follows:

    29.7. The use of intoxicating liquors as a beverage, or trafficking therein.
    In light of the Holy Scriptures and human experience concerning the ruinous consequences of the use of alcohol as a beverage as a community of faith committed to the pursuit of a holy life, our position and practice is abstinence rather than moderation. Holy Scripture teaches that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. With loving regard for ourselves and others, we call our people to total abstinence from all intoxicants.

    Furthermore, our Christian social responsibility calls us to use any legitimate and legal means to minimize the availability of beverage alcohol. The widespread incidence of alcohol abuse in our world demands that we embody a position that stands as a witness to others.

    Furthermore, while total abstinence from all intoxicants is the historical and current position of the Church of the Nazarene we do recognize that our Lord Jesus Christ both consumed and produced alcoholic beverages. As such, abstinence from alcohol consumption can not be considered an essential of the Christian faith. We acknowledge that many Christians of good conscience choose to moderately consume alcohol without sinning. Adherence to the call for abstinence shall not be a requirement for membership in the Church of the Nazarene. Our position on abstinence should not be followed with a prideful, haughty, or judgmental attitude. Christians should always live a sober-minded life.


    REASONS:

    1. Tobacco, alcohol, and illicit drugs should not be lumped together but each given their own paragraph.

    2. The Church of the Nazarene should continue it's call to abstinence from alcohol beverages while recognizing that drinking alcohol in moderation is not inherently sinful.

    3. There are many Christian traditions that do not call their people to total abstinence from alcohol consumption, it is important to recognize that they are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

    4. Jesus Christ and all the apostles consumed alcohol. There are scriptural references that speak of alcohol in a positive light. Our position must be biblical and thus it is important to explicitly state that abstinence is not an essential of the Christian faith.

    5. The Covenant of Christian Conduct is a "guide and help" to holy living and as such it's advices should not be understood as a strict litmus test for membership in the Church of the Nazarene.

    6. The Church of the Nazarene should not operate as a legalistic organization but rather we should give room for the Holy Spirit to speak to individual situations and circumstances.
    Last edited by Kevin Rector; December 15th, 2015 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Took out "or ordination" and fixed typo
    God is really good.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt, Marsha Lynn, John F Martin, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  19. #19
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    So that was my first stab at it, I'd like to know your thoughts.
    God is really good.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    So that was my first stab at it, I'd like to know your thoughts.
    I think I only see one little typo. In 29.6, I think you mean to add, not remove, the "be used" early in that last sentence. [Looks like you fixed it! ]

    I certainly like separating the 3 items. It makes no sense for alcohol and tobacco to be lumped together.

    And, of course, I like that it clarifies that this call to abstinence is not required for membership or ordination. Frankly, that should be clarified at the level of the entire covenant, but getting it in here is a good start. I think it's more likely to pass, though, if the "or ordination" is removed.
    Last edited by Rich Schmidt; December 15th, 2015 at 04:41 PM.

  21. #21
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    It's well done. I wouldn't vote for it and I'd be disappointed if it passed, but I think it's well constructed. I agree with Rich, leaving the ordination part in is a sure-fire way to kill it, but I think the whole thing is too far most most GA delegates anyway, so why not aim high?
    ...just my $.02.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    It's well done. I wouldn't vote for it and I'd be disappointed if it passed, but I think it's well constructed. I agree with Rich, leaving the ordination part in is a sure-fire way to kill it, but I think the whole thing is too far most most GA delegates anyway, so why not aim high?
    Is your main problem with it the part that says it's not required for membership (or ordination)? Because aside from clearly stating that drinking alcohol isn't sinful, and mentioning that Jesus drank & made it, that's the only other substantive change.

  23. #23
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I took out "or ordination" because I do think that it would be the nail in the coffin for the resolution. I hesitated even putting it in.
    God is really good.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  24. #24
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Is your main problem with it the part that says it's not required for membership (or ordination)? Because aside from clearly stating that drinking alcohol isn't sinful, and mentioning that Jesus drank & made it, that's the only other substantive change.
    Perhaps its the order. I'd rather have us start with the individual - alcohol is not sinful in an of itself - then move to the collective - because it does cause problems in our society, we choose and ask our members to abstain. I think the order is important.

    I also think the line about Jesus consuming and producing alcohol will be offensive to many. I don't think I buy into the notion that "alcohol in Jesus' time wasn't the same as it is today," but I do appreciate the difference in cultural context. I also don't know that I'd spell out "not required for membership," because frankly it's not required now, except by some people. Even if the Manual says it's not required, some pastors will still require it. Ultimately, our covenant of christian conduct isn't required for membership - and I'd rather make the change to the membership ritual to highlight that, than make it an issue in every paragraph where its needed in the Manual.
    ...just my $.02.
    Thanks Marsha Lynn - "thanks" for this post

  25. #25
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I also don't know that I'd spell out "not required for membership," because frankly it's not required now, except by some people. Even if the Manual says it's not required, some pastors will still require it. Ultimately, our covenant of christian conduct isn't required for membership - and I'd rather make the change to the membership ritual to highlight that, than make it an issue in every paragraph where its needed in the Manual.
    Like I said, I'd rather that be clarified at the macro level, too. Because whether or not it's required for membership is a hotly debated issue... and I believe that until recently, it was taken for granted that it IS required.

    So I'd like it to get mentioned explicitly SOMEWHERE... though I suppose stating it this way here might give the impression that all the rest of the Cov-Conduct IS required for membership. Ugh.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  26. #26
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Thanks.



    Like I said, I'd rather that be clarified at the macro level, too. Because whether or not it's required for membership is a hotly debated issue... and I believe that until recently, it was taken for granted that it IS required.

    So I'd like it to get mentioned explicitly SOMEWHERE... though I suppose stating it this way here might give the impression that all the rest of the Cov-Conduct IS required for membership. Ugh.
    One thing bothering me here, alcohol just happens to be the OP. If ________ is more important to you than ________ then you probably should not be involved in ________ .

    Let me break it down for you: if beer is more important to you than your spouse, then you probably should not be married. Membership is every bit as serious as a marriage.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  27. #27
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    So, if you are serious about wanting to remove moderate use of alcohol as a condition of membership, then you will need to limit it to general membership only. You will need to craft a resolution that keeps the abstinence requirement in place for clergy, board members, and appointed or elected officials of the CoTN.

    Otherwise, a resolution like this will never see the assembly floor (though, not very likely in this form either).
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  28. #28
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    One thing bothering me here, alcohol just happens to be the OP. If ________ is more important to you than ________ then you probably should not be involved in ________ .

    Let me break it down for you: if beer is more important to you than your spouse, then you probably should not be married. Membership is every bit as serious as a marriage.
    Uh.... what?

    (For the record, I don't drink alcohol. Just getting that out of the way.)

    For beer to be more important to me than my spouse, that would mean that beer is coming between us in some way, and I'm choosing beer over her. Perhaps I'm drinking to excess. Or she is an alcoholic, and my beer-drinking is causing her to struggle or fail. Yes, these would be horrible.

    How does that connect to the conversation we're having here? I'm not seeing the connection you're trying to make. (Edited to add that your follow-up post doesn't make it any clearer for me.)

  29. #29
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Uh.... what?

    (For the record, I don't drink alcohol. Just getting that out of the way.)

    For beer to be more important to me than my spouse, that would mean that beer is coming between us in some way, and I'm choosing beer over her. Perhaps I'm drinking to excess. Or she is an alcoholic, and my beer-drinking is causing her to struggle or fail. Yes, these would be horrible.

    How does that connect to the conversation we're having here? I'm not seeing the connection you're trying to make. (Edited to add that your follow-up post doesn't make it any clearer for me.)
    It is the nature of the conversation that we have been having on Naznet about every controversial topic. The convo generates exclusively around the thesis statement that: "I disagree with the organization's values, society disagrees with the organization's values, therefore the organization is wrong, I'm right and the organization must change to conform to my values."

    That is just not how an organization works. If your opinion is more important to you than the organization's opinion, then you are the outlier, not the organization.

    Refraining from intoxicating drink, and by extension, all non-prescribed intoxicating substances, is a core value of the CoTN. It is not just an arbitrary set of rules, its part of our fabric.

    Since it is such a part of our fabric, it can never be okay for a leader of the CoTN. Maybe for non-leader members but never for a leader. In fact the only admonition that I know of from the Bible is in the Old Testament where mom's advise to her son the King tells him to let his people have the strong drink but that he should abstain.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  30. #30
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    IRefraining from intoxicating drink, and by extension, all non-prescribed intoxicating substances, is a core value of the CoTN. It is not just an arbitrary set of rules, its part of our fabric.
    I think this is probably right historically. However the two important questions are, is it still the case and more importantly, should it be? These questions are not out of bounds for anyone in the church and leadership should be required to reflect on these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Since it is such a part of our fabric, it can never be okay for a leader of the CoTN. Maybe for non-leader members but never for a leader.
    I would argue the opposite. It is exactly the role of the leader to guide an organization (times 1000 for the church) into the right path. The place where this is most critical, and most difficult to change, is core values but it is also the most important.

    I fear that we have made prohibition an idol in that we have put it ahead of our core mission. It is the responsibility of leadership to challenge such dysfunction.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Rich Schmidt, John F Martin, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  31. #31
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    It is the nature of the conversation that we have been having on Naznet about every controversial topic. The convo generates exclusively around the thesis statement that: "I disagree with the organization's values, society disagrees with the organization's values, therefore the organization is wrong, I'm right and the organization must change to conform to my values."

    That is just not how an organization works. If your opinion is more important to you than the organization's opinion, then you are the outlier, not the organization.

    Refraining from intoxicating drink, and by extension, all non-prescribed intoxicating substances, is a core value of the CoTN. It is not just an arbitrary set of rules, its part of our fabric.

    Since it is such a part of our fabric, it can never be okay for a leader of the CoTN. Maybe for non-leader members but never for a leader. In fact the only admonition that I know of from the Bible is in the Old Testament where mom's advise to her son the King tells him to let his people have the strong drink but that he should abstain.
    Ah. Now I understand you.

    I don't think this thread is the place for the debate you're wanting to have. This thread is for considering proposed resolutions to the next General Assembly to modify the Manual's statements on alcohol. It's not the place to debate whether we should or shouldn't modify it or whether this part of the Manual should be untouchable. It clearly isn't untouchable, since it was just modified in recent memory (though it didn't change our abstinence-only/prohibitionist stance). Conversations like these aren't about elevating one's opinions above those of the organization... unless you view every proposed resolution that way.

    I'm pretty sure there's a sticky post at the top of this forum that says these types of debates should be kept out of this forum.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  32. #32
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Thanks.



    Like I said, I'd rather that be clarified at the macro level, too. Because whether or not it's required for membership is a hotly debated issue... and I believe that until recently, it was taken for granted that it IS required.

    So I'd like it to get mentioned explicitly SOMEWHERE... though I suppose stating it this way here might give the impression that all the rest of the Cov-Conduct IS required for membership. Ugh.
    Yeah, that's sort of my point. We've gone over and over it - right now, the only place in our Manual that says the Covenant of Christian Conduct is required for membership is in the membership ritual itself. That's probably where we need that change to happen. We should put a resolution here to that effect.

    I guess my other point was just one of order. I think it's important for us to state what we believe about alcohol itself first - we believe drinking is not sinful, although it has lead to man personal and societal problems that are often overlooked. And then move to the what we do in response to this belief - we abstain in solidarity with those who suffer, we abstain because our society does deal with alcohol well, etc, etc.

    The point I think, theologically, is really one about sin. Alcohol itself is not sinful, but, as an organization, we believe it is sinful for us to partake because of our love and care for those who suffer as a result - however, we recognize that some individual members feel differently and we continue to love them with grace and acceptance.

    That wording is terrible, but I do think we need to embrace the collective nature of our calling and how sin plays into it. It's the same thing with gambling, right - gambling in and of itself isn't sinful - but because of the effect it has on other people, we'd just rather not do it. People in our congregations play the lottery, they probably go to casinos once in a while, they could have a weekly poker game with friends. WE don't castigate them for it, but we're also not going to put any of those things on the congregational social calendar. It's tough to enforce grace, which is essentially what we're doing. We're saying, we'd rather you not drink, but we're not gonna crucify you for it. To me that at least invites people to ask and explore why, which is, I think, the point.

    It's a difference to me between "you can be a Nazarene and drink" and "we ask Nazarenes not to drink."
    ...just my $.02.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt, John F Martin, Steve Malcolm, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  33. #33
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Ah. Now I understand you.

    I don't think this thread is the place for the debate you're wanting to have.
    No debate intended, you ask for clarification, i gave it, nothing more. This question is settled for me, why would I debate?

    Stating that I don't think this resolution will make the floor without a compromise is well within the bounds of resolution discussion and understating my position.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  34. #34
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    I think this is probably right historically. However the two important questions are, is it still the case and more importantly, should it be? These questions are not out of bounds for anyone in the church and leadership should be required to reflect on these.
    You are ultimately asking if the founders were wrong. I don't think this is the correct question. The question is "are we still relevant?" Organizations typically start to fail in the third generation, by my count, we are at the beginning of the seventh? Just before its ultimate failure, a car company's slogan was "This is not your father's Oldsmobile." Organizations typically fail because they loose their focus.

    I'm afraid that you will not like the real answers to the real questions.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  35. #35
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Torrington Wyoming
    Posts
    1,697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    So, if you are serious about wanting to remove moderate use of alcohol as a condition of membership, then you will need to limit it to general membership only. You will need to craft a resolution that keeps the abstinence requirement in place for clergy, board members, and appointed or elected officials of the CoTN.

    Otherwise, a resolution like this will never see the assembly floor (though, not very likely in this form either).
    I have been thinking about that and agree that it would be an issue. I would want leaders and those who vote to be in agreement with who we are.

    I also want everyone who is going to be a part of us to be a member regardless of their spiritual state so that they publicly give us permission to hold them accountable and to mentor them.

    Perhaps the associate membership status would be appropriate in this situation.

    Bottom line: I do not want an act of love (abstinence) to be seen as an act of condemnation. I want every chance possible to speak into the lives of the people in my community. I'm not seeking to water down our positions. Rather I seek a new understanding for the process by which we invite people to join us.

    Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk
    Thanks John F Martin, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  36. #36
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    If we go there, why have a denomination, quite honestly?
    Because we're family.
    God is really good.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, John F Martin - "thanks" for this post

  37. #37
    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Vilonia, Arkansas
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    ...Alcohol itself is not sinful, but, as an organization, we believe it is sinful for us to partake...
    This to me is a bridge too far. We should not say, "it's not sinful, but it's sinful to us," when in reality it is just not sinful. We should not call something sinful that the scriptures do not call sinful. Simply put, we should not put restrictions on our people that God does not. It's like the argument in Galatians against the Judaizers - they had all kinds of fine reasons to insist on Christians being circumsized and other rules and Paul has some harsh words against them.

    How about the following change to the final paragraph:

    Furthermore, while total abstinence from all intoxicants is the historical and current position of the Church of the Nazarene we do recognize that our scriptures never prohibit the consumption of alcoholic beverages. As such, abstinence from alcohol consumption can not be considered an essential of the Christian faith. We acknowledge that many Christians of good conscience choose to moderately consume alcohol without sinning. Our position on abstinence should not be followed with a prideful, haughty, or judgmental attitude. Christians should always live a sober-minded life.
    God is really good.
    Thanks Mike Schutz, John F Martin, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  38. #38
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    You are ultimately asking if the founders were wrong. I don't think this is the correct question.
    You are right that this is the wrong question but I wasn't asking that. The founders created a way for us to adapt to a changing world by providing a way to change everything in the manual including our Articles of Faith which are our truest and most sacred core values. I, in fact, think they were right in doing this. They were wise enough to understand that future generations will need to make adjustments in order to continue with the core mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    The question is "are we still relevant?" Organizations typically start to fail in the third generation, by my count, we are at the beginning of the seventh? Just before its ultimate failure, a car company's slogan was "This is not your father's Oldsmobile." Organizations typically fail because they loose their focus.
    Relevant, although a loaded word, is indeed the question. I don't know what is typical for the ending of businesses that are over 100 years old like our church but I'm guessing failure to adapt to a changing environment is pretty near the top of the list.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    I'm afraid that you will not like the real answers to the real questions.
    Not sure what you mean by this but yes I don't like all kinds of answer I get, real or imagined.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Mike Schutz, John F Martin, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  39. #39
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    This to me is a bridge too far. We should not say, "it's not sinful, but it's sinful to us," when in reality it is just not sinful. We should not call something sinful that the scriptures do not call sinful. Simply put, we should not put restrictions on our people that God does not. It's like the argument in Galatians against the Judaizers - they had all kinds of fine reasons to insist on Christians being circumsized and other rules and Paul has some harsh words against them.

    How about the following change to the final paragraph:

    Furthermore, while total abstinence from all intoxicants is the historical and current position of the Church of the Nazarene we do recognize that our scriptures never prohibit the consumption of alcoholic beverages. As such, abstinence from alcohol consumption can not be considered an essential of the Christian faith. We acknowledge that many Christians of good conscience choose to moderately consume alcohol without sinning. Our position on abstinence should not be followed with a prideful, haughty, or judgmental attitude. Christians should always live a sober-minded life.
    I like that better. I still think we need to lead with this and follow with our position on abstinence, but I like it better.


    Our position is that it's sinful for us, though. That's what we take on. Collectively, the Church of the Nazarene believes in abstinence from alcohol as part of our calling to the poor. We might be ready to get rid of that (as we got rid of our emphasis on legal prohibition of alcohol), but I would be very sad about that.

    I see it as simply what Paul says about meat sacrificed to idols. It's not sinful to eat on its own, but it might be sinful to eat based on context. We're not condemning alcohol consumption, but we're expressing a call to something else as part of our call to the marginalized and forgotten.

    Maybe we should just use Kingdom language? "Alcohol may have a place in the Kingdom of God, but because of the failures of our fallen world, we find it best to abstain until the consummation of the kingdom."


    I guess ultimately it might be about how one views the inclusiveness of the denomination. If we're going to continue to do the "our church can be your home" thing and include as many Christians as possible, then we need to change our position. It makes no sense. However, if we want to stick with the notion of a people called to the poor and marginalized, then there's less impetus to be as inclusive as possible. The train may have already left the station on that last one, but I'm still on it.


    I've heard some revived talk about "orders" within the evangelical movement, like the orders in the Catholic church - people accepting a specific calling within the larger body. Maybe that is an avenue to pursue, although I've always thought the Church of the Nazarene was already one of those orders.
    ...just my $.02.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Hobart, Indiana, United States
    Posts
    1,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    For some reason this scene came to mind

    Laughing Rich Schmidt, Gina Stevenson - thanks for this funny post

  41. #41
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Here's what I've come up with, working with what we've been discussing:

    The Use of Intoxicants
    Paragraphs 29.5 and 29.6

    Resolved, that paragraph 29.5 be retitled, “The use of intoxicating liquors as a beverage,” and replaced with the following:

    Acknowledging that consumption of alcohol, in moderation, is, in itself, not inherently sinful, we recognize the pain and trauma suffered by individuals and families as a result of alcohol abuse and addiction. Society often prefers to hide, ignore, or ostracize these problems.

    From its earliest days, the Church of the Nazarene exhibited a special calling to ministry among the poor, lost, and forgotten as primary vocation. Because of this special calling, we ask our members to refrain from alcohol and other intoxicating substances as a symbol of solidarity with those who suffer.

    We acknowledging this is not the calling of God for all people or the only way to faithfully respond to addiction, as such, abstinence from alcohol consumption cannot be considered an essential of the Christian faith. We make the choice to abstain from alcohol in response to the biblical mandate of self-giving love for our brothers and sisters. Our position must be embodied with grace and without judgment. In that spirit, we do not hold adherence to this position as required for fellowship, either in the body of Christ or in the Church of the Nazarene.

    Further, we should seek to minimize the irresponsible use of alcohol and glorification of the same in society and culture. Effort and attention must be paid to the consequences of irresponsible alcohol use and its effect on people for whom Christ died. The widespread incidence of alcohol abuse in our world demands that we embody a position that stands as a witness to others.

    (In light of this stance, only unfermented win should be used in celebration of the Lord’s Supper.)


    Further resolved, that paragraph 29.6 be retitled “The use of other intoxicants, stimulants, or hallucinogens, outside proper medical care and guidance,” and replaced with the following:

    In light of medical evidence outlining the dangers of such substances, along with scriptural admonitions to remain in responsible control of mind and body, we choose to abstain from intoxicants, stimulants, and hallucinogens outside proper medical care and guidance, regardless of the legality and availability of such substances.


    Rationale:

    1. Our statement should reflect a broader directive on the use of intoxicating substances that will guide the practice of our denomination regardless of medical, scientific, and legal changes.

    2. Our statement on alcohol should not simply be a condemnation of alcohol, but an understanding of our Christian responsibility to those who suffer from its abuse.

    3. In light of the unfortunate judgementalism that has accompanied our interpretation of understanding of alcohol in the past, our statement should reflect grace strongly, in imitation of our savior, Jesus Christ.
    ...just my $.02.

  42. #42
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    205
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I'd be in favor of removing the call for abstinence simply because our local (USA) churches effectively already have. If we strengthened our call to abstinence I think 50% of our local church membership and even our board might not qualify to be members.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt, Roy Richardson - "thanks" for this post

  43. #43
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Rich,

    I like a lot of the improvements, I really do. But I think we have neglected something important. Permission needs to be granted for Christians who call themselves Nazarenes to exercise discernment and follow a spirit-guided conscience on the matter. We need to create some space for the Holy Spirit to speak instead of just stating our position. I would like to see something stated to that affect.
    Thanks Diane Likens, Scott Moseley - "thanks" for this post

  44. #44
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Hobart, Indiana, United States
    Posts
    1,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    I don't have anything worked out yet. I just know that I want to submit a resolution changing the alcohol paragraph to something that moves us away from a prohibitionist stance on it. I figured I'd get the ball rolling by starting the thread, if that's OK.

    Do any of you have the texts of previous proposals on this issue? Do you remember how the voting and/or discussion went?
    Did you submit this?

  45. #45
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Richardson View Post
    Did you submit this?
    I submitted the resolution I shared here to my district. They met to discuss it - I'm not sure if they changed it, but they did pass something along.
    ...just my $.02.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Richardson View Post
    Did you submit this?
    I haven't submitted anything. I need to contact Dave (our DS) to see if I still can. Thanks for the reminder!

    Edit: Just emailed him.

  47. #47
    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albany, OR
    Posts
    793
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    I haven't submitted anything. I need to contact Dave (our DS) to see if I still can. Thanks for the reminder!

    Edit: Just emailed him.
    On-time resolutions were due December 1.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  48. #48
    Naznet Owner Dave McClung's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 1987
    Location
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Posts
    4,565
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I won't express an opinion on the merits of the resolutions, but I will comment on the politics of a resolution to change the church's position on alcohol.

    In my opinion, any change to our denominational stance will have to wait on a Regional Manual. In the past, the district superintendents from North America determined the outcome of resolutions at a general assembly. The balance of power has shifted to Africa and South America. There is no way the delegates from Africa and South America would vote for a resolution changing the church's stance on alcohol.

    Once the special rules are moved to the Regional Manual, it is likely that some regions will make a change.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  49. #49
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave McClung View Post
    I won't express an opinion on the merits of the resolutions, but I will comment on the politics of a resolution to change the church's position on alcohol.

    In my opinion, any change to our denominational stance will have to wait on a Regional Manual. In the past, the district superintendents from North America determined the outcome of resolutions at a general assembly. The balance of power has shifted to Africa and South America. There is no way the delegates from Africa and South America would vote for a resolution changing the church's stance on alcohol.

    Once the special rules are moved to the Regional Manual, it is likely that some regions will make a change.

    I was told by a General Board member that the "regional manual" idea is dead and will not move forward. I sure hope that's not true, but they said the BGS does not want to further divide an already divided denomination.
    ...just my $.02.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  50. #50
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I was told by a General Board member that the "regional manual" idea is dead and will not move forward. I sure hope that's not true, but they said the BGS does not want to further divide an already divided denomination.
    I wonder what their thinking is? Do they think we are going to reverse course and start coming together? Maybe that by strength of will (and probably law) they can keep us together? Feels like the same old, same old... ignore, deny, deny, deny and hope it goes away. Just doesn't seem like a good plan to me. Sadly it does fit the larger pattern.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  51. #51
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    W Michigan
    Posts
    12,250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Ryan, a few paragraphs down where you start with, "We acknowledging . . . . ", read it without the "We." I think you want to start it with "Acknowledging . . . . "
    Otherwise, sounds good, suggesting it's a solidarity thing rather than a mandate.
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. ~ Stella Adler
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life. ~ Susan Lapin ~

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

  52. #52
    Naznet Owner Dave McClung's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 1987
    Location
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Posts
    4,565
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I was told by a General Board member that the "regional manual" idea is dead and will not move forward. I sure hope that's not true, but they said the BGS does not want to further divide an already divided denomination.
    I had not heard that; however, I am no longer in the loop. I was wondering why we had not heard anything about it recently.

  53. #53
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave McClung View Post
    I had not heard that; however, I am no longer in the loop. I was wondering why we had not heard anything about it recently.
    Yeah, I asked whether it was worth putting the alcohol statement forward with the upcoming regional manual and was told to proceed as normal since the regional manual was not going to be addressed at the next GA and maybe never.
    ...just my $.02.

  54. #54
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Denison, Texas, United States
    Posts
    2,819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I was told by a General Board member that the "regional manual" idea is dead and will not move forward. I sure hope that's not true, but they said the BGS does not want to further divide an already divided denomination.
    When did they make the change that the BGS and not the General Assembly was the highest governing body? I was unaware the BGS could arbitrarily overturn a mandate.

  55. #55
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by David Pettigrew View Post
    When did they make the change that the BGS and not the General Assembly was the highest governing body? I was unaware the BGS could arbitrarily overturn a mandate.
    Someone would have to bring it up on the floor, right? Perhaps there will be a resolution to reverse the previous resolution or one that postpones the deadline. They'll take care of it or certainly someone will bring it up.
    ...just my $.02.

  56. #56
    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albany, OR
    Posts
    793
    Post Thanks / Like
    BTW, late resolutions can be submitted until June 1.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  57. #57
    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boise, ID City of Trees
    Posts
    6,524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I have never been to a GA even though I have been Nazarene for all of my 79 soon to be 80 years and I am appalled that such a topic even be brought up on this forum. Alcohol and the consumption of it is absolutely sinful because it destroys the very brain cells God created you with and such a discussion does not belong on any media that considers itself connected to the Church of the Nazarene I know. If this sort of issues is to be part of the discussion at a GA then I would not want to attend. Call me judgmental but the Bible also challenges us to be discerning. I will stand on the side of discerning that no Nazarene should ever let such a lowering of our God's call to Holiness. Living a life that includes alcohol is not Holy.

  58. #58
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    I have never been to a GA even though I have been Nazarene for all of my 79 soon to be 80 years and I am appalled that such a topic even be brought up on this forum. Alcohol and the consumption of it is absolutely sinful because it destroys the very brain cells God created you with and such a discussion does not belong on any media that considers itself connected to the Church of the Nazarene I know. If this sort of issues is to be part of the discussion at a GA then I would not want to attend. Call me judgmental but the Bible also challenges us to be discerning. I will stand on the side of discerning that no Nazarene should ever let such a lowering of our God's call to Holiness. Living a life that includes alcohol is not Holy.
    No it's not. The Bible nor the the manual describe it as such. If you want to define sin as anything that doesn't jive with your personal culture or world view then have at it but understand that that is the only place where you find authority for making such a statement. Not the Bible. Not the manual. And not the historic stance of the CotN. Sorry Jim but it's just fundamentalism and legalism through and through.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks David Graham - "thanks" for this post

  59. #59
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    No it's not. The Bible nor the the manual describe it as such. If you want to define sin as anything that doesn't jive with your personal culture or world view then have at it but understand that that is the place where you find authority for making such a statement. Not the Bible. Not the manual. And not the historic stance of the CotN. Sorry Jim but it's just fundamentalism and legalism through and through.

    Also you needlessly judge our brothers and sisters in other faith traditions who drink as not holy. That is sinning against them, like it or not.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Rich Schmidt, David Graham - "thanks" for this post

  60. #60
    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boise, ID City of Trees
    Posts
    6,524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    The narrow road to Heaven will not be littered with booze bottles and cans.

  61. #61
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    The narrow road to Heaven will not be littered with booze bottles and cans.
    Of course not, because responsible drinkers will put their bottles & cans in the recycling.
    Thanks David Graham - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Lucas Finch, Cam Pence, David Graham - thanks for this funny post

  62. #62
    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boise, ID City of Trees
    Posts
    6,524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    This whole discussion is shocking and utterly disheartening. I don't ever want to go to GA. I'm very sorry I even opened this thread for the Church of the Nazarene in which I was raised no longer exists and may be loosing a member. Forget your heritage and push the old folks over the cliff and merge with the Methodists. There was a reason at one time that Bresee and others left that denomination but it begins to appear that that reason no longer exists. My church home is being stolen away from me and those of like precious faith and conviction.

  63. #63
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    This whole discussion is shocking and utterly disheartening. I don't ever want to go to GA. I'm very sorry I even opened this thread for the Church of the Nazarene in which I was raised no longer exists and may be loosing a member. Forget your heritage and push the old folks over the cliff and merge with the Methodists. There was a reason at one time that Bresee and others left that denomination but it begins to appear that that reason no longer exists. My church home is being stolen away from me and those of like precious faith and conviction.

    I'm sorry you seek such needless division by staking claim in a position which comes solely from legalism. Not the Bible. Not the manual. Just you, Jim. Sorry that you feel the need to pridefully turn a non essential into a defining Christian tenant. You still sin against your brothers and sisters. I'll pray for you.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  64. #64
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    If it's any consolation, Jim, the denomination will likely not be changing its position on alcohol use anytime soon. Still such a prideful and divisive behavior towards other Christians who do drink from an otherwise prayerful man such as yourself is very disheartening.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  65. #65
    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boise, ID City of Trees
    Posts
    6,524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I believe that Christians are to be agents of change in their society and culture and not "go with the flow" types. If our life style is not different than the society around us how can we testify to a "life changing" experience. Holding to the life style standards I was taught in a Nazarene parsonage does not make be prideful or divisive. The scriptures do however speak of those who will fall away in the last days and I do not want that to happen to the Family Nazarene.

  66. #66
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    I believe that Christians are to be agents of change in their society and culture and not "go with the flow" types. If our life style is not different than the society around us how can we testify to a "life changing" experience. Holding to the life style standards I was taught in a Nazarene parsonage does not make be prideful or divisive. The scriptures do however speak of those who will fall away in the last days and I do not want that to happen to the Family Nazarene.
    You have no scriptural or doctrinal basis to connect moderate alcohol consumption to falling away in the last day and infer false witness against your brothers and sisters who do drink moderately. This is needless cultural divisive behavior fueled by fundamentalism. NOT the Holy Scriptures. NOT the doctrine and polity of the CotN. Our abstaining has nothing to do with moderate alcohol consumption, in and of itself, being sinful. To continue to insist on such is needlessly selfish and divisive.
    Last edited by Cam Pence; February 20th, 2017 at 08:09 AM.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Jon Campbell - "thanks" for this post

  67. #67
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    You have no scriptural or doctrinal basis to connect moderate alcohol consumption to falling away in the last day and infer false witness against your brothers and sisters who do drink moderately. This is needless cultural divisive behavior fueled by fundamentalism. NOT the Holy Scriptues. NOT the doctrine and polity of the CotN. Our abstaining has nothing to do with moderate alcohol consumption, in and of itself, being sinful. To continue to insist on such is needlessly selfish and decisive.
    And besides all of that, this is NOT the thread nor the forum for having this discussion. This forum (and thread) is for discussing proposed General Assembly resolutions, not debating issues.
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  68. #68
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    And besides all of that, this is NOT the thread nor the forum for having this discussion. This forum (and thread) is for discussing proposed General Assembly resolutions, not debating issues.
    You're right. My bad. FWIW, I think I have realized that calling out bad behavior isn't doing much to change it so I wasn't going to respond after my last post
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  69. #69
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Victor, MT
    Posts
    4,443
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    You're right. My bad. FWIW, I think I have realized that calling out bad behavior isn't doing much to change it so I wasn't going to respond after my last post
    It's been a while since we've had a good "legitimize alcohol" free-for-all in the forums. Maybe it's time for another. Or not.
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net

  70. #70
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    You're right. My bad. FWIW, I think I have realized that calling out bad behavior isn't doing much to change it so I wasn't going to respond after my last post
    I meant my post as a continuation of yours, not in response to yours. You're not the one who started the argument in the wrong place.
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  71. #71
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Torrington Wyoming
    Posts
    1,697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    I'm not sure about the whole conversation, but I will simply talk.

    It would be easier to start relationships if alcohol were allowed and I served it at parties. But even if allowed, I wouldn't do it. I used to have the same thoughts as Jim, we even used to attend church together. So let me say this to Jim, if I could.

    Jim, it is not Biblical to suggest that alcohol is evil. In fact to suggest that it is, is a false teaching. That doesn't change the fact that a cornerstone of being Nazarene is sacrificing for the least of these. We abstain from alcohol not because it is evil in and of itself, but because there is the potential to cause others to stumble and because many suffer from an addiction to alcohol. We act in love not in condemnation. Please understand this...if our youth of today hear us suggest that those who drink are evil, and read their Bibles, they will lose faith in our words and reject us. We can still be adamant about leading our churches to health, but we must do so with clear and solid scriptural support.

    My church may not grow as quickly because we abstain from alcohol and we will live with that cost in order to be available for those who struggle. But neither should we be known to condemn those who drink lest we condemn our own Savior.

  72. #72
    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Toowoomba Region, Queensland Australia
    Posts
    5,907
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    We in the Uniting Church dumped the Methodist stance against Drinking Alcohol (as well as not dancing and not smoking etc) because it tended to create an atmosphere of judgmentalism and inhibited the right of parishioners to take the responsibility in the formation of and the following of their own conscience. After talking with some of my older Methodist members, many told me that abstinence also created unnecessary guilt for those who would occasionally breach the "rules" towards which they had no personal conviction of right or wrong, but inflicted upon them a sense of guilt or shame making them feel like rebels or outcasts in their own church; and that this was not helpful in their own spiritual development.

    (I concur, for this actually reflected my own situation within the CotN before I left it. Ironically, the amount of alcohol I consume now over a year is much the same as I did then..... 5-6 standard drinks. And even, if I did rejoin the church [for whatever reason I'd want to?] my behaviour is not likely to change, for I cannot call wrong that which is not sinful, especially when Jesus and the people of God have drunk alcohol since time in memorial.)

    So while now, we as a denomination strongly advocate for moderation in all things, our members are allowed to follow their own consciences on such matters. Most of our churches however, even those from formerly Presbyterian or Congregationalist backgrounds have a policy of allowing no alcohol to be consumed on church grounds whether as part of a church function or otherwise, which acknowledges our concerns about the poor witness of over consumption.
    Thanks Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  73. #73
    Senior Member Greg Gates's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    1,908
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Do any of you have the texts of previous proposals on this issue? Do you remember how the voting and/or discussion went?
    Has anyone mentioned the 1997 general assembly debate on this issue?

    I haven't read every post but I did so a search for 1997 and Prince and found nothing so maybe not...

    But in 1997 the Germans (I believe) had a resolution make it through committee and onto the floor for the final vote. And it passed! Just then William Prince, who was presiding, leaned into the mic and asked, "did we just lower our stance against alcohol?" He then told how he had grown up with an alcoholic father...

    He then asked the parliamentarian how to reconsider and vote again. The parliamentarian gave the procedure and there were people who cooperated and a re-vote was taken and it was defeated.

    So close...

    Anyone else remember this? Did I remember it right?

  74. #74
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Gates View Post
    Has anyone mentioned the 1997 general assembly debate on this issue?

    I haven't read every post but I did so a search for 1997 and Prince and found nothing so maybe not...

    But in 1997 the Germans (I believe) had a resolution make it through committee and onto the floor for the final vote. And it passed! Just then William Prince, who was presiding, leaned into the mic and asked, "did we just lower our stance against alcohol?" He then told how he had grown up with an alcoholic father...

    He then asked the parliamentarian how to reconsider and vote again. The parliamentarian gave the procedure and there were people who cooperated and a re-vote was taken and it was defeated.

    So close...

    Anyone else remember this? Did I remember it right?
    I wasn't there for it, but someone who was told me about it... and in his version of the story it was Ted Lee who came to the microphone and said that and called for a re-vote.

    Life would be so much easier if that re-vote had never taken place, if an appeal to emotion hadn't replaced the deliberation of the assembly. Allowing for the moderate consumption of alcohol is not a "lower stance" than requiring total abstinence.
    Thanks Lucas Finch, Craig Laughlin, Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  75. #75
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    I wasn't there for it, but someone who was told me about it... and in his version of the story it was Ted Lee who came to the microphone and said that and called for a re-vote.

    Life would be so much easier if that re-vote had never taken place, if an appeal to emotion hadn't replaced the deliberation of the assembly. Allowing for the moderate consumption of alcohol is not a "lower stance" than requiring total abstinence.
    This was long enough ago that my memory could be faulty. Anyone want to confirm whether it was Lee or Prince who did this?

  76. #76
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Denison, Texas, United States
    Posts
    2,819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Alcohol

    It was Dr. Lee.
    Thanks Jeremy D. Scott, David Troxler, Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts