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Thread: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

  1. #41
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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    This is public information that is totally appropriate to discuss, pray about, pray over, and, hopefully, learn from together.
    Cam, I agree with both of your points and I don't believe it needs to be swept under the rug. I just don't think this is necessarily the place to do it. Too many voices that seem to only search out the negative in the CoTN (some of whom aren't even part of the church and some who see it in such a negative light, they probably should leave). Parts of the conversations I have seen in other threads does nothing to bring Glory and Honor to the name of Jesus nor do they do anything to stand in support of the Church of the Nazarene. The headline alone does not give any support to the KC District, its leadership, or the Church of the Nazarene in general. Again, I don't believe that this was Bill's intention. But I wish someone could please tell what positive, if any, could come from that headline other than drawing attention? We should learn yes. But what do we "learn" from a forum like this?
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    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    The headline alone does not give any support to the KC District, its leadership, or the Church of the Nazarene in general.
    As the OP, I have no problem (if it is possible) with a moderator changing the thread title to something less offensive.
    It was simply the first thing that came to my mind on hearing the news.

    BILL

  3. #43
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    The headline alone does not give any support to the KC District, its leadership, or the Church of the Nazarene in general. Again, I don't believe that this was Bill's intention. But I wish someone could please tell what positive, if any, could come from that headline other than drawing attention? We should learn yes. But what do we "learn" from a forum like this?
    The headline simply tells what the thread is about. This is yet another case of alleged child molestation in our denomination. If we are discussing this incident in a thread, how would you word it? This just seems like about as straight forward of a thread title as they come. Its an extremely sad and horrible thing that happened. Simply saying what that thing is, to me, is not being negative but truthful about the situation.
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    Senior Member Jon Bemis's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    As the OP, I have no problem (if it is possible) with a moderator changing the thread title to something less offensive.
    It was simply the first thing that came to my mind on hearing the news.

    BILL
    There is nothing wrong with with the thread title IMO. We shouldn't be worried about soft pedaling or protecting reputation in cases like this.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Cam, I agree with both of your points and I don't believe it needs to be swept under the rug. I just don't think this is necessarily the place to do it. Too many voices that seem to only search out the negative in the CoTN (some of whom aren't even part of the church and some who see it in such a negative light, they probably should leave). Parts of the conversations I have seen in other threads does nothing to bring Glory and Honor to the name of Jesus nor do they do anything to stand in support of the Church of the Nazarene. The headline alone does not give any support to the KC District, its leadership, or the Church of the Nazarene in general. Again, I don't believe that this was Bill's intention. But I wish someone could please tell what positive, if any, could come from that headline other than drawing attention? We should learn yes. But what do we "learn" from a forum like this?
    So far, this thread has not gone the direction you feared it would. And I've already learned a lot from it (about insurance, for example).

    Perhaps it's time for you to stop fretting and celebrate that this particular conversation is going in a more helpful direction than others have.

    BTW, I see nothing wrong with the thread title or our discussing the situation here.
    Thanks Cam Pence, Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Perhaps it's time for you to stop fretting and celebrate that this particular conversation is going in a more helpful direction than others have.
    It has and my prayer is that it will continue.

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Okay, so now insurance topic has surfaced and been aired, how about this as a follow - up question?

    I'd like to hear how the unspoken chill of insurance claims adjusters and insurance lawyers imposition into "normal church life" actually affects the work load, whether pastor, staff, or volunteer laity. Litigation is an "adversarial activity." Finding adversarial advisors suddenly an unspoken, unacknowledged partner in church life is tough. Adversarial and community building are mutually exclusive.

    How is re-balancing PROCESS achieved in a devastated congregation?

    Dave spoke of a couple helpful responses agreed upon by leadership at Gig Harbor. Appointing a spokesperson.
    Securing pastoral interaction with the incarcerated.

    As laity, I'd like to know how to helpfully address both the non-predator's primary victim as well as the collateral victims in the congregation. Walking on eggshells is not my strong suit. Nor is pretending nothing has changed when I know it has.

    I want to modify my personal behavior to address and be supportive in pragmatic ways to the larger pool of victims in my church family. Being told to keep silent isn't good enough. I need to do more.

    I'm sure open for ideas.

    Thanks.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    Okay, so now insurance topic has surfaced and been aired, how about this as a follow - up question?

    I'd like to hear how the unspoken chill of insurance claims adjusters and insurance lawyers imposition into "normal church life" actually affects the work load, whether pastor, staff, or volunteer laity. Litigation is an "adversarial activity." Finding adversarial advisors suddenly an unspoken, unacknowledged partner in church life is tough. Adversarial and community building are mutually exclusive.

    How is re-balancing PROCESS achieved in a devastated congregation?

    Dave spoke of a couple helpful responses agreed upon by leadership at Gig Harbor. Appointing a spokesperson.
    Securing pastoral interaction with the incarcerated.

    As laity, I'd like to know how to helpfully address both the non-predator's primary victim as well as the collateral victims in the congregation. Walking on eggshells is not my strong suit. Nor is pretending nothing has changed when I know it has.

    I want to modify my personal behavior to address and be supportive in pragmatic ways to the larger pool of victims in my church family. Being told to keep silent isn't good enough. I need to do more.

    I'm sure open for ideas.

    Thanks.
    During the years I was handling litigated claim files, I can't remember even one time where the claims process had an "adversarial" feel. If there's litigation involved, the person who'll be speaking with the church's representative is the church's counsel. I see no reason that there'd be hostility between the two. There have been times when employees of my insured would get a rumor mill going amongst themselves, sure that the company would be going broke and they'd all be out on the street in no time flat. As the adjuster, that wasn't a concern of mine.

    I guess my best advice would be to treat this as you'd treat ANY challenge in the church. If a member couple divorces, do you cling to one and shun the other? Doubtful. Also -- don't gossip. Ever.
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    During the years I was handling litigated claim files, I can't remember even one time where the claims process had an "adversarial" feel. If there's litigation involved, the person who'll be speaking with the church's representative is the church's counsel. I see no reason that there'd be hostility between the two. There have been times when employees of my insured would get a rumor mill going amongst themselves, sure that the company would be going broke and they'd all be out on the street in no time flat. As the adjuster, that wasn't a concern of mine.

    I guess my best advice would be to treat this as you'd treat ANY challenge in the church. If a member couple divorces, do you cling to one and shun the other? Doubtful. Also -- don't gossip. Ever.
    By 'adversarial' I took Rosey to mean that the congregation could be affected by the thought - far in the back of one's mind of course - that every person who darkens the door of the church is a potential plaintiff in the next lawsuit.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    Senior Member Wilson Deaton's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    We should learn yes. But what do we "learn" from a forum like this?
    Well, Jim, you must be way better connected than me. I still have not heard one thing about this recent scandal other than what I've read here.

    I believe that as a Nazarene pastor, I have the right to be informed of issues that impact the denomination. This kind of scandal is one of those things. This (awful) news is at one and the same time, a prayer request, and a warning/reminder to be diligent. If not here, where?

    Wilson
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  11. #51
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    By 'adversarial' I took Rosey to mean that the congregation could be affected by the thought - far in the back of one's mind of course - that every person who darkens the door of the church is a potential plaintiff in the next lawsuit.
    I sure hope that's not the case. If there's someone in the church eyeing everyone (or anyone) with suspicion, perhaps s/he needs some bended knee time.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson Deaton View Post
    Well, Jim, you must be way better connected than me. I still have not heard one thing about this recent scandal other than what I've read here. I believe that as a Nazarene pastor, I have the right to be informed of issues that impact the denomination. This kind of scandal is one of those things. This (awful) news is at one and the same time, a prayer request, and a warning/reminder to be diligent. If not here, where? Wilson
    Wilson, that's the question that I put out there. I agree 100% that as Nazarene pastors, we have the right to information that impacts the denomination. But you know as well as I do that this is not a site for Nazarene pastors. Maybe some different form of communication from the district level to keep us informed? I don't know the answer. I also agree with Rich in the fact that this thread has not gone bad yet and I pray that it doesn't. When I say "bad", I'm not just talking about false information and conjecture. I am also talking about openly dogging out our leadership which has no place in a public forum.

  13. #53
    Senior Member Brandon Brown's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Wilson, that's the question that I put out there. I agree 100% that as Nazarene pastors, we have the right to information that impacts the denomination. But you know as well as I do that this is not a site for Nazarene pastors. Maybe some different form of communication from the district level to keep us informed? I don't know the answer. I also agree with Rich in the fact that this thread has not gone bad yet and I pray that it doesn't. When I say "bad", I'm not just talking about false information and conjecture. I am also talking about openly dogging out our leadership which has no place in a public forum.
    As a layperson, this is concerning. Transparency is an all or nothing idea when it comes to publicly known information. Abuse has been an issue in many organizations precisely because of the lack of transparency. While it should be measured, public forums are exactly the place to criticize leadership, especially here where real names are required. I believe we should never shy from criticism when it is warranted, especially when we are criticizing decisions that lead to preventable harm. Lack of transparency hurts us much more than even vitriolic public attacks.

    Maybe it is difficult for some to stand with leadership when the same thing keeps happening. Yes, outside critics will comment, but maybe that will help to reinforce why transparency is helpful and why we need to be vigilant in protecting the most vulnerable among us.
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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Brown View Post
    As a layperson, this is concerning. Transparency is an all or nothing idea when it comes to publicly known information. Abuse has been an issue in many organizations precisely because of the lack of transparency. While it should be measured, public forums are exactly the place to criticize leadership, especially here where real names are required. I believe we should never shy from criticism when it is warranted, especially when we are criticizing decisions that lead to preventable harm. Lack of transparency hurts us much more than even vitriolic public attacks.

    Maybe it is difficult for some to stand with leadership when the same thing keeps happening. Yes, outside critics will comment, but maybe that will help to reinforce why transparency is helpful and why we need to be vigilant in protecting the most vulnerable among us.
    Or why not just follow the Biblical mandate of going to straight to your brother or sister instead of talking around them?

  15. #55
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    No disrespect intended, but I've grown weary of the Matthew 18 argument. Many people ignore verse 17, which to me sounds like a call for transparency.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Or why not just follow the Biblical mandate of going to straight to your brother or sister instead of talking around them?
    Because the passage you are referring to is a guideline for resolving disagreements within a congregation or fellowship, not a template for responding to moral failures.

    This so-called biblical mandate has been used far too often to hush up sexual/financial misconduct; allowing rapists and con-men to continue victimizing others within the body of Christ, while victims and those who advocate for accountability are treated like villains, abused a second time - by the Church.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    Naznet Owner Dave McClung's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Or why not just follow the Biblical mandate of going to straight to your brother or sister instead of talking around them?
    Jim, there is a difference between cases where there is a conflict between two individuals and when actions of someone threaten the integrity of the church. Did Jesus go discuss the issues privately with the money changers at the temple?

    When a representative of the church is accused of inappropriate sexual conduct, it is not a matter to be settled in private. It is a time when the church stands for what is right and proper:

    1. The accused person is presumed innocent and is entitled to due process.
    2. The church demonstrates that it will not condone or ignore sexual misconduct by its clergy.

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Thank you for your response, Diane. In regards to your Member Couple Divorces posit, does the church cling to one and shun the other? That would be a loud YES in pew practice observations in over 60 yrs of personal observation.

    The shunned one is the one who did the filing--regardless of cause. They lose their S/S job. They lose their money counter job. They lose their NMI presidency They lose their choir "spot." They never get asked to provide special music, serve on Funeral Dinner cooking, babysit in nursery. Their contributions are still welcome because their donations in the plate don't have ID scrawled on it.

    I don't think shunning in practice has changed since Pilot Point. At least not in the churches I've intimately observed member divorce occurrences within. More often than not, the advice is for the "filer" to go to another church where they can start over. At the new church, the choir director is thrilled to have them, the nursery attendents are thrilled for new assistant, the S/S teacher assignments are quickly issued. I've never understood this "you're okay there, not okay where the filer came from" distinctions due to member couple divorce.

    Now that I think about it, a moral failure and criminal arrest warrant occurring within a church family IS a type of divorce, yes?



    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    During the years I was handling litigated claim files, I can't remember even one time where the claims process had an "adversarial" feel. If there's litigation involved, the person who'll be speaking with the church's representative is the church's counsel. I see no reason that there'd be hostility between the two. There have been times when employees of my insured would get a rumor mill going amongst themselves, sure that the company would be going broke and they'd all be out on the street in no time flat. As the adjuster, that wasn't a concern of mine.

    I guess my best advice would be to treat this as you'd treat ANY challenge in the church. If a member couple divorces, do you cling to one and shun the other? Doubtful. Also -- don't gossip. Ever.
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  19. #59
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    I also agree with Rich in the fact that this thread has not gone bad yet and I pray that it doesn't. When I say "bad", I'm not just talking about false information and conjecture. I am also talking about openly dogging out our leadership which has no place in a public forum.
    This case (so far) seems very straightforward. An incident occurred, was reported, and now a pastor/compassionate ministry leader is in jail.

    Thusfar, there is no indication of a pattern of similar behaviors nor any effort by the denomination to cover it up.

    In other words, no information has emerged suggesting that 'our leadership' needs to be called on the carpet for anything.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Billy and Diane and possibly others, allow me to rephrase, pls.

    With the insertion of an external process, a superimposition if you will, of an adversarial investigation insurance adjuster system put into place, and interrupting normal communication flow between minister, staff, and laity as well as laity with laity, how is re-balancing of normal communications ever established in the devastated church while the long, drawn out, adversarial legal processes grind on?

    As laity, I'd like to know how to helpfully address both the predator's primary victim, if they indeed remain in the church family, as well as the much larger pool of collateral victims in the congregation? Walking on eggshells is not my strong suit. Nor is pretending nothing has changed when I know it has. And to maintain a policy of silence in the face of this, especially over time seems to not be conducive to loving support of individuals, especially over the long haul.

    Newly inserted, Adversarial based advice to stay silent to stay insured is not compatible with community re-balancing and service within the affected congregation. It is elephant in the room advice. I need practical ideas. Please. Avoiding, or turning away from for fear of jeapordizing church insurance, yes from the very people who are hurting (besides the predator's family) is not helpful. It is devisive.

    How do we help each other, staff or laity deal with this in real terms? What works? What programs? Any help from HQ? Do we all have to figure this out on our own? Each and every time? Is there no guidance?

    Thank you for revisiting my question. I hope I stated the adversarial mandate of silence question, a non-church family value, impact better this time.





    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    Okay, so now insurance topic has surfaced and been aired, how about this as a follow - up question?

    I'd like to hear how the unspoken chill of insurance claims adjusters and insurance lawyers imposition into "normal church life" actually affects the work load, whether pastor, staff, or volunteer laity. Litigation is an "adversarial activity." Finding adversarial advisors suddenly an unspoken, unacknowledged partner in church life is tough. Adversarial and community building are mutually exclusive.

    How is re-balancing PROCESS achieved in a devastated congregation?

    Dave spoke of a couple helpful responses agreed upon by leadership at Gig Harbor. Appointing a spokesperson.
    Securing pastoral interaction with the incarcerated.

    As laity, I'd like to know how to helpfully address both the predator's primary victim as well as the collateral victims in the congregation. Walking on eggshells is not my strong suit. Nor is pretending nothing has changed when I know it has.

    I want to modify my personal behavior to address and be supportive in pragmatic ways to the larger pool of victims in my church family. Being told to keep silent isn't good enough. I need to do more.

    I'm sure open for ideas.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Rosey Morgan; July 16th, 2016 at 01:35 PM.

  21. #61
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    To Rosey:

    When something happens you communicate everything you can openly and honestly.

    Yes, we have a staff member who has been arrested. There are restrictions placed upon us to protect the accused and the accuser. It is our desire for both parties to be restored, but we must also be mindful of the legal process that dictates our ability to operate within our country. It is true that legal counsel has been acquired and is provided by our insurance policy and it is true that in order to insure us and reduce our liability our insurance company requires that we cooperate with our lawyers and heed their advice.

    I have just given you the safe response that our lawyers expect me to give. The truth is this... This situation is tearing my heart out. My heart breaks for both people. It is possible that someone is wrong and has caused pain to one of our own. Regardless of who is wrong or what actions were taken, we the church, are responsible for protecting our vulnerable members to ensure that it is very difficult to be harmed while participating in a church event. We will continue to evaluate our processes and behaviors to ensure this happens. We must be ready and willing to walk the long and difficult road with all involved. This does not mean that punishment won't be instituted by our government, if warranted, but that even if it is that our love remains evident.

    I ask for your patience. Silence is sometimes required to protect the parties involved including the possible victim. I know your desire is to know everything, but please understand that this desire can actually harm those you are concerned about. As it is possible and is warranted to help the situation I will provide additional information.

    That is what I would say. The reality is that the church must trust the person saying it and must be willing to set aside their desire to know to give the process room. I have been in those situations where staying silent was supposed to protect a potential aggressor. Many in the church turned the board into the aggressor and the other person into the victim. I disagreed with the process but as a member of the board it was important to speak with one voice. I wanted to tell everyone what was happening and instead I had to stand silently while friends called me evil.

    Another time I had a lawyer instructing me to behave in a manner that I knew would kill the organization yet met the goals of a few within the organization. I disobeyed that instruction and acted in the manner in which I believed was best. A lawyer can't make you do or say anything and neither can insurance. They can decline to continue to represent you which shifts the liability to you or the church, but if it is clear that their counsel is detrimental to the church, the church can do what it wants. This action may result in additional lawsuits and may result in the closure of the church and depending on what actions are taken, personal liability. It is fear of this, which causes most to heed the advice of lawyers.

    How does a church recover? Determination to not allow evil to win. Determination to heal and to restore relationships. A church dedicated to building God's Kingdom will find a way. A church filled with selfish people will eat their own.

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  22. #62
    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    This case (so far) seems very straightforward. An incident occurred, was reported, and now a pastor/compassionate ministry leader is in jail.

    Thusfar, there is no indication of a pattern of similar behaviors nor any effort by the denomination to cover it up.

    In other words, no information has emerged suggesting that 'our leadership' needs to be called on the carpet for anything.
    I hope you're right.

    At least no one is owning up to knowing about the said abuses or had suspicions about the alleged abuses.
    I wonder how they'd go being cross examined by a US equivalent of a "Royal Commission" such as what is still taking place in my country. We're all amazed by what has emerged about who knew what about specific cases of abuse and yet did nothing.

  23. #63
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by David Graham View Post
    I hope you're right.

    At least no one is owning up to knowing about the said abuses or had suspicions about the alleged abuses.
    I wonder how they'd go being cross examined by a US equivalent of a "Royal Commission" such as what is still taking place in my country. We're all amazed by what has emerged about who knew what about specific cases of abuse and yet did nothing.
    This is always a possibility. People have a nasty way of surprising us and anyone who reads Naznet knows I'm not afraid to criticize leadership. I can't speak for the situation at the local church/Compassionate ministry center. That being said, I know the DS well and many of the key players on the Board of Ministry. When it comes to this sort of thing they are very much no-nonsense kind of people and are not afraid of controversy. Their personalities are bent toward justice and doing the right thing even if it is painful. Some of our problems in the past have been with folks who had long patterns (if not always well known by the general church) of behaving in troubling ways. That is not the case with the KC district leadership. If anything they would lean to the other side.

    I could be surprised but it seems unlikely in the extreme with these folks.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Thanks Jim for your questions and concern. I struggle with this too, and I appreciate your attitude and spirit.

    1. This is already in the Kansas City Star and is going to bring bad publicity to the COTN no matter whether we discuss it or not. I decided not to post a link or name the pastor (even though those who want to will quickly dig that information out...we do live in the information age) because I don't want to cross the line into gossip. Obviously, you feel the line lies elsewhere...and I might too on a given day and in a different situation.
    2. While I have a deep appreciation for Dr. Rowell and other District leaders, I unfortunately also know our denomination does NOT have a very good track record in dealing with these issues.
    I sometimes wonder if we are going to go the way of the Catholics if we aren't careful. We do need to pray specifically that our leaders have wisdom to handle this situation appropriately. I even pray that this pastor, if innocent, is quickly freed from this charge. If he is not innocent, I do wish God would be glorified by the church appropriately supporting the victim of this alleged action and that we NOT sweep this under the rug to "protect the church".

    BILL
    Kudos for addressing this issue as to SHOCK AND AWE my friends we BETTER be shocked driven to our knees and broken by this :
    Here is my story I am no longer ashamed or controlled by this:

    Thank you Bill for addressing this topic. Here is my story. I come from a unique perspective as a survivor of sexual abuse from someone in the church (not in leadership but a very strict 8 day a week church attendee) who was a friend of the family. He and my father were friends. When they moved away, we often went to visit. During one of those visits at about age 13 he molested me and attempted to several other times, until I threatened to call the police. My family never knew and we continued being friends. I attended their 25th wedding anniversay even and I lived with the growing pain. I saw him at least once a year even after that at church camp in a sister denomination. His daughter were best friends with my sisters. Due to a situation I recently talked for the first time naming to my family the perpetrator (who is long gone). A sister never experienced that, but she was not real surprised, she saw him beating his girls when drunk (alcohol being one his passions to “preach against”. I was molested in my early teens and didn’t realize the effect. I never told anyone until 30 years later after being in ministry many years and with my marriage falling apart, I finally told my wife –first person who ever knew, counselors and other key folks in my life. I won’t go into all those details, bur thank God for some key folks who helped me through those days, 2 of them being our dear friends Dave and Karen Troxler. I was homicidal once I realized what he had done to me... my wife will never v forget the day I came home from a counseling session and she said “what is wrong with you? I cried and cried and cried and threw things AND said “I hate that man I want to kill him !” (Even though he was dead by then. I also was suicidal at one point in that process. Here I was an ordained minister of many years who endured a lifetime of pain. I didn’t connect why I struggled in school that 8th grade year so much and was emotionally falling apart, or why I struggled in my marriage so much. I even attended his funeral visitation with some family a few years before this pushing this all to the back of my mind while destruction threatened my life. I am sad due ot how he always was around kids at camp and friends of pastor’s kids I am almost certain there is a trail of brokenness of folks I know personally.
    Thankfully, I came to a much better place. Through godly folks and 2 key counselors I came to healing I NEVER FORGET THE DAY I TOOK THE ADVICE OF MY COUNSELOR AFTER 2 YEARS OF DISCUSSING HIS NAME AND BURNED IT IN THE FIREPIT as a symbol of forgiveness and releasing his power over me. That truly was a marked day in my life! Yes, I bear the scars, and am deeply pained to hear these stories. As a SURVIVOR.. CHURCH ..WE MUST BE VIGILANT!!!! I know the pain too well. During my Chaplain Residency part of my assignment was adult inpatient mental health. During spirituality group sessions I dealt with folks pained by abuse, and noticed almost all my special requests for visits there had that as part of their story, I asked my CPE (Clinical Pastoral Education) Supervisor and we discussed in our peer groups and he told me he did most of his chaplaincy in mental health and he asked a supervisor once what percent of inpatient mental health had been sexually abused, and he was told 100% in that facility I found that to be true of every patient I met there except one or 2. Official stats suggest 80-90 % of mental health patients have if I recall correctly. I appreciate you bringing this to light and pray to God we do the right thing. Thankfully that man no longer has power over me and I am able and use opportunity to talk about what I was ashamed of too long. I preach about it, sensitively of course and know from that many tell their stories of abuse. And in the hospital setting and in my many years of end of life care I often hear these sad stories that have never been told before. I can now appropriately preach about it and address it. If you ever want the perspective of survivor please talk to me. I am deeply angry and saddened by this news. If you are anywhere near leadership stand against it make sure we set the standard high. I have seen unfortunately seen care not being exercised. I wont go into detail but I called it out along with some others when someone was being exposed to teens with a not so good criminal record. Well pastor so and so knows him and has worked with him .. I don’t care cant be too careful . We must set the standard. Sorry for so long a post but its real from my own painful experience.

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    The following executive summary from the 84pg PDF insurance industry white paper if offered here for introduction and review. The link to the entire document is listed below this summary.

    Quoted Executive Summary of copyrighted material is presented under Fair Use Doctrine, 17 Section USC 107

    I want to thank the insurance professionals both current and former for directing me into areas which helped further my study and understanding.
    That's how this document surfaced and is the basis for this sharing here.


    DOCUMENT NAME: Coverage and Liability Issues in Sexual Misconduct Claims

    Claim Trends and Changes in the Law, Case Management and Risk Management

    Claim Trends
    One significant claim trend is that courts and defendants are allowing anonymity of alleged sexual abuse victims and more open resolution of claims, through John Doe filings, and non-confidential settlements.

    A related trend is the growth and active participation of survivors groups in sexual misconduct litigation.

    The SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) website includes information about perpetrator priests and actions by Dioceses to address sexual abuse claims.
    The combination of survivors’ anonymity, support groups, and public outrage has warranted insureds’ concerns about negative publicity and their willingness to pay large sums.

    *Abuse claims against
    the Archdiocese of Boston resulted in an $85 million payment to settle 541 claims and the resignation of a Cardinal.

    *There was a recent settlement by the Diocese of Orange, California, part of the Clergy I

    coordinated proceedings, wherein approximately $100 million was paid to 87 claimants.

    *A recent jury
    verdict award of $437,000 to a single victim of sexual abuse by a priest from the San Francisco Archdiocese is not being appealed by the Archdiocese.


    Changes in the Laws
    The most significant change in the law in recent years concerned the statute of limitations.

    Many states
    have eliminated the statute of limitations defense or made the defense fact-intensive so as to foreclose opportunities for early dispositive motions.

    The available causes of action, remedies, defenses and claim values vary greatly, depending on jurisdiction.

    We refer the reader to Part Three for specifics on the jurisdictional differences. As a result of these jurisdictional differences, choice of law disputes is becoming more prominent in the underlying and coverage cases.


    Changes in Case Management

    It is becoming more common for multiple victims to consolidate lawsuits and coordinate proceedings. This has required parties and the courts to use case management and alternative dispute resolution (ADR) procedures to address what has essentially become mass tort litigation.

    Another change has been the increase in filings of petitions for voluntary bankruptcy by defendants. The bankruptcy proceeding addresses pending claims and may also require the presence of a future claims representative to represent those claimants who are unable to present claims at the time of the proceeding.


    Changes in Risk Management
    Several churches and social service providers with primary care responsibilities for minors who have become defendants in such claims have implemented risk management practices and loss control procedures.

    These include:
    the screening of all workers,
    physical plant changes,
    policies for interactions
    with children, and
    mechanisms for investigating and responding to claims.

    Although these improvements
    have resulted in a downturn in reported incidents, the long tail and increased complexity of litigation continues to produce higher expenses, settlements, and jury verdicts.

    http://www.ficurma.org/misc/sexual_m...uct_claims.pdf

    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  26. #66
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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    To Kyle,
    Thank you so very much for your very thoughtful response. I didn't wish to appear hasty in my response to your response, therefore I've been musing on your points these last 4 days.

    I heard your safe response, the CYB response. Thank you. I found it most clearly stated, that you all "will continue to evaluate our processes and behaviors to ensure [on going attention to protecting vulnerable members] this happens." That is wise. Prudent. Watchful. Caring.

    I chaffed a bit under your assumptive statement that you "know of my desire to know everything." That is not true. I prefer to not know sordid details of anyone's personal life, especially in the church. It hurts, internally, as if it were happening to one of my own immediate family to hear of such trespass. Viscerally. Hurts. Reverberates. Boomerangs. It's the nature of this topic.

    I do wish to know enough to avoid "stepping in it," even well-intentioned but wrongfooted as I am thrust into the position of an explosion of distrust, anxiety, hurt feelings, and dropped assignments, and missing faces of friends and church family. Especially as a lower level tier of leadership and responsibility as a layperson.

    I don't think "knowing everything" is a requirement for receiving guidance from minister or staff in a sexual abuse grenade exploding in the midst of a church family situation. That does NOT mean I don't want guidance. Reading material. Group dynamic support. Isolation is a killer.

    I do not like insurance companies overarching intrusion and management into church dynamics. That I'm clear on. But in order for me to behave lovingly toward the primary victim? Nope, don't need details!!! It is a special responsibility to "carry the details" of a loved one in this situation. It is not a goal to learn details.

    And if I may speak candidly, I'll leave the ministry to the predator to others, because I frankly cannot be a trusted party to "both sides" nor would I EVER EVER EVER seek that position. No amount of prayer, nor cajoling will make me change that conviction. As a victim in a Naz University setting, as well as a local church setting I suddenly didn't trust any one who knew, even long time close friends. That's just the nature of the destruction and collateral damage. As I posted to another on this thread, this is a divorce of a different kind in a church family. Destroyed trust is not easily nor instantly rebuilt.

    I recall a pastor on NN speak to how he was growing a church plant, and some of the "trust building" exercises he was leading in doing so. Surely someplace. SOME.Place. there is a guideline or response from outside the local ground zero which can help and I as a layperson can participate in. YES? No?

    Primary victims tend to not trust those who are straddling the fence, and "ministering to both parties." There is a obvious reason for that. Victims don't want to be told to forgive, forced to, coerced, nor harangued/preached at about forgiveness. Sexual abuse is not a snap ones fingers and get over it quickly matter. Male nor female. Why? Because implied or expressed, forgiveness carries a huge component of "reconciliation" with the abuser goal whether spoken or unspoken. That is life-threatening on so many levels. There are professional MH practictioners who won't even do that, have both parties in the same practice. To elevate that as a model in the local church is just nuts in my lay opinion.

    So, we have a divergence there, Reverend.

    I'm sorry your friends called you evil for your leadership in the tough situation you are describing. That was unfair, unkind, and no wonder your guts were and are ripped out. I'm sorry!!

    I so sincerely appreciate the clarity with which you addressed the result of your "disobeying the insurance company." That has never so clearly been stated in my presence ever. By either a minister nor a board member, deacon nor steward. And I'm no spring chicken in the Naz church. Not at all.

    I think you eruditely expressed the ministerial tension and identified the segmentation of the church family.

    Wichita 1st has had two very high profile cases of adultery rip the congregation. That's adult sexual abuse. And that was ROUGH. I can't imagine the sexual abuse of a minor grenade explosion, not at all. That kind of shock will reverberate for generations. And the "attending Sr. Minister" may not be the one who gets to stick around, for all kinds of reasons.

    I appreciate the time you took and your candor. Very.Much.

  27. #67
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Rosey,

    I want to say so much more but it seems like I just start rambling.

    I hope you know that my response was not towards you but a fictitious congregation who typically have people who are more interested in the story than the person.

    I didn't meant to imply that I would counsel both. The church should minister to both and that often means different churches as no victim should be subjected to the presence of the one who hurt them.

    In one situation the pastor introduced the adulterer to another pastor and made sure they were receiving counseling. He changed churches to give the couple a chance to fix things without him around. The church maintains a responsibility to help restore everyone, but it doesn't mean in the same location.

    Thank you for your response. Those who know me well know that I have a heart for those who suffer.

    Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk
    Thanks Rosey Morgan - "thanks" for this post

  28. #68
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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Hamilton View Post
    Kudos for addressing this issue as to SHOCK AND AWE my friends we BETTER be shocked driven to our knees and broken by this :
    Here is my story I am no longer ashamed or controlled by this:

    Thank you Bill for addressing this topic. Here is my story. I come from a unique perspective as a survivor of sexual abuse from someone in the church (not in leadership but a very strict 8 day a week church attendee) who was a friend of the family. He and my father were friends. When they moved away, we often went to visit. During one of those visits at about age 13 he molested me and attempted to several other times, until I threatened to call the police. My family never knew and we continued being friends. I attended their 25th wedding anniversay even and I lived with the growing pain. I saw him at least once a year even after that at church camp in a sister denomination. His daughter were best friends with my sisters. Due to a situation I recently talked for the first time naming to my family the perpetrator (who is long gone). A sister never experienced that, but she was not real surprised, she saw him beating his girls when drunk (alcohol being one his passions to “preach against”. I was molested in my early teens and didn’t realize the effect. I never told anyone until 30 years later after being in ministry many years and with my marriage falling apart, I finally told my wife –first person who ever knew, counselors and other key folks in my life. I won’t go into all those details, bur thank God for some key folks who helped me through those days, 2 of them being our dear friends Dave and Karen Troxler. I was homicidal once I realized what he had done to me... my wife will never v forget the day I came home from a counseling session and she said “what is wrong with you? I cried and cried and cried and threw things AND said “I hate that man I want to kill him !” (Even though he was dead by then. I also was suicidal at one point in that process. Here I was an ordained minister of many years who endured a lifetime of pain. I didn’t connect why I struggled in school that 8th grade year so much and was emotionally falling apart, or why I struggled in my marriage so much. I even attended his funeral visitation with some family a few years before this pushing this all to the back of my mind while destruction threatened my life. I am sad due ot how he always was around kids at camp and friends of pastor’s kids I am almost certain there is a trail of brokenness of folks I know personally.
    Thankfully, I came to a much better place. Through godly folks and 2 key counselors I came to healing I NEVER FORGET THE DAY I TOOK THE ADVICE OF MY COUNSELOR AFTER 2 YEARS OF DISCUSSING HIS NAME AND BURNED IT IN THE FIREPIT as a symbol of forgiveness and releasing his power over me. That truly was a marked day in my life! Yes, I bear the scars, and am deeply pained to hear these stories. As a SURVIVOR.. CHURCH ..WE MUST BE VIGILANT!!!! I know the pain too well. During my Chaplain Residency part of my assignment was adult inpatient mental health. During spirituality group sessions I dealt with folks pained by abuse, and noticed almost all my special requests for visits there had that as part of their story, I asked my CPE (Clinical Pastoral Education) Supervisor and we discussed in our peer groups and he told me he did most of his chaplaincy in mental health and he asked a supervisor once what percent of inpatient mental health had been sexually abused, and he was told 100% in that facility I found that to be true of every patient I met there except one or 2. Official stats suggest 80-90 % of mental health patients have if I recall correctly. I appreciate you bringing this to light and pray to God we do the right thing. Thankfully that man no longer has power over me and I am able and use opportunity to talk about what I was ashamed of too long. I preach about it, sensitively of course and know from that many tell their stories of abuse. And in the hospital setting and in my many years of end of life care I often hear these sad stories that have never been told before. I can now appropriately preach about it and address it. If you ever want the perspective of survivor please talk to me. I am deeply angry and saddened by this news. If you are anywhere near leadership stand against it make sure we set the standard high. I have seen unfortunately seen care not being exercised. I wont go into detail but I called it out along with some others when someone was being exposed to teens with a not so good criminal record. Well pastor so and so knows him and has worked with him .. I don’t care cant be too careful . We must set the standard. Sorry for so long a post but its real from my own painful experience.
    Thank you for sharing!
    "I'll give you a full life in the emptiest of places...You'll use the old rubble of past lives to build anew... You'll be known as those who can fix anything, restore old ruins, rebuild and renovate, make the community livable again." Isaiah 58:11-12 (THE MESSAGE)



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvhP_xORvgE new for 2014!

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Kyle, I do appreciate your response. And I doubt if you could ramble on this topic, frankly. You've come the closest, as best I can tell, to addressing the concerns being expressed for more guidance/ideas on this forum. I'm grateful.

    By the same token, I'm rather stunned that there has been no revealing of a support program/activities initiated for layity in behalf of the critical care victims, aka the primary target as well as more nuanced training and discussions for helping the collateral victims in a shell-shocked congregation.

    This seems really hard for me to grasp "why" most especially when the grind is so protracted, and the pain and upset not openly addressed in some helpful manner for the laity. And I"m guessing, not for the leadership, either. Not from District. Not from Compassionate Ministries nor somewhere within the Lenexa level.

    I've been informed twice now, privately as to how supportive the neighboring Presbyterian church "down the street" was to the Gig Harbor situation earlier brought to the forum by Dave. I'm so glad they were "there." One confidante was a family member of a member of the G.H. church. Another was a personal friend of the "assigned Presbyterian Minister" who responded, and stayed with the processing congregation within the immediate blast zone. Then that Rev. stayed in touch after the initial shock moved into and through the rest of the grieving process, as more situations arose which needed a hearing, caring, loving, steady leadership touch, even tho' that wasn't a Nazarene who "came."

    Here's one of my musings:

    Why don't we take advantage of our highly educated professional Psychology Staff at our 10 universities???!!! or Hear something helpful from our NTS training ground or our Bible College what would be helpful??? Why can't they be tapped for "Emergency Responders", aka backup from within the ranks.....is that too novel?

    Could it be funded by "home missions funding?" Room, Board, Transportation, Meals, printed materials support?

    For example: In my research into the aftermath of the SNU/BFC tragedy, I uncovered a "reading material list" posted by BFC. Nine (9) titles for Adults. Four (4) additional Titles for Teens. Acc'd to the attribution which was made available when that list was made available, the indications were that is was a compilation by professionals in the field. I can HOPE that SNU contributed brainpower and titles to that reading list.

    Why isn't this list circulated? Made a part of print support when one of these situations explodes in a church family within the COTN? It was clearly stated these were not "Nazarene" authors. Frankly, that can be a benefit, yes?

    Could these titles not form a portion of a response plan, or a study group, or something? Can't we learn from Bethany First Church who published the list?

    When public or private schools for example have tragedy strike, one of the first subsequent events to be announced and followed through on are the descent of or assignment thereto of professionals inserted into the reaction period in very very early support. Not preachers. Professors. A type of S/A EMT response? Maybe retired clergy who have been trained could be part of a team response.......

    We have all ages, all ethnicities, all social status, involved in S.A. church family tragedy. Why not bring in the best of the best and brightest in our Uni's to thinktank this, and then create the staffing in our ed zones???? I know one Uni prof has totally spoken of an interest in participating / responding in this manner. Can not our system of adjunct professors be relied upon in the classroom when senior staffing is called away for a period of time to address the immediacy of this upheaval?

    It's a better idea than "muddle through" seat of the pants I'm getting a clearer image of. Talk about stress on a staff or board!!! WHEW! Muddle through process by default, leaves all behind the curve and at the mercy of instructions from the insurance lawyers to cooperate or lose coverage, or as you put it, being on your own in being assigned liability in the example you shared.

    Again, I'm grateful for two practical steps both you and Dave have iterated,
    *connection with the incarcerated predator after due process, and
    *not trying to be wearing dual hats of trust for both predator and victim.

    When I read that response from you, I confess my first thought was, "OH my word!!! What if the primary victim leaves the church family for whatever reason? Who follows up? Shows love? Caring consistently?"

    I'm still open to ideas. They don't appear to be flooding to the surface.

    I do hope for more ideas and responses of what works and what doesn't in the aftermath of these tragedies.
    Last edited by Rosey Morgan; July 24th, 2016 at 12:28 AM.
    Thanks Billy Cox - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Dan, I'm still digesting the enormity of your sharing, where you've been, where you are now, and your courage to come here and speak forthrightly.

    So much of our response to sexual abuse in the church involves female victims. It is doubly hard for me to hear of the abuse you endured, the processing you undertook, and the courage you've displayed.

    I can't go another minute without saying THANK YOU to you for your post. When the shock of your testimony lessens, I will respond to some of your points that hit me the hardest as I read your account.

    Thank you seems so anemic for the appreciation I'm feeling.
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  31. #71
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Rosey,

    I appreciate the questions. My response is now limited because I simply don't know. Most of my focus is trying to engage my community in hopes that maybe at least one family will find value in my leadership and help validate what I believe God has called us to do in this community. Some of the issues to be discussed here aren't pressing issues for me because I have 8 people in my church. Many times we don't worry about something until we are forced to do so.

    I do have a woman in my church who was abused. Acting with compassion is very important even though it was many years ago. She was beaten and held captive by her first husband and his mother. She suffered brain damage and hearing loss as a result of her beatings. She has seizures and often loses consciousness while in church.

    She has shared stories of how some pastors have treated her. I think they will have a long conversation with Jesus when they are ready to enter heaven.

    Her presence may be inhibiting growth. I am not willing to sacrifice her in hopes of adding to our church. I am finding ways to manage the impact she has during a service and to provide opportunities for her to have a positive and encouraging environment. Her sister is a shut in. Instead of Sunday School at the church we now dismiss after service and go to Family Groups. Her family group meets at her sisters and includes her son who lives with her and another older gentleman who I am providing temporary shelter in our basement.

    I suppose that can be at the root of the problem for some pastors. We can focus too much on the success of the organization that we overlook issues that may be harming others. But I have determined that if we can't look like Jesus and love the least of these then we may as well close. It is why someone is living in my basement. I could have stayed removed from the situation and simply expressed my willingness to pray while this individual escalated into a crisis situation and became homeless. He is technically homeless, but he has shelter while we work to find permanent solutions. I do need to find those solutions because I sense God leading me to use our basement to provide shelter for teens who need safe housing. Most certainly I will then be confronted with working with victims.

    OK, the longer I ramble the more I see that I have immersed myself in working with victims because I have started a non profit with the goal of ending poverty in our area. We just started so we haven't helped anyone yet, but I am building connections with counselors and other professionals who can best provide assistance in our community.

    I hope that our churches would be a safe haven and refuge for all victims because everyone has suffered from evil. But we have to realize that we invite evil into our churches. We encourage sinners to join us so that they can be saved. But this requires establishing processes to limit the sinner's ability to harm while they are still working on obeying God. It is why our leaders must be more throughly inspected because there is an expectation that they have moved beyond sin and are no longer prone to harm others. It is why we expect our leaders to act in a manner that is above reproach so that there is no question regarding how they will respond to temptation.

    My main focus is asking God for the strength to walk the long road of recovery with them. Many victims struggle because many in their support systems or families bail when things don't happen as fast as they think it should. It isn't so much that I have to have the answers. But am I willing to love them even when it is hard and uncomfortable?

    Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk
    Thanks Billy Cox, Rosey Morgan, Gina Stevenson, John Kennedy - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    This morning, Kyle, your reply moved me to tears. And to prayer. "Where two or three gather...." And, you have EIGHT!!!!!!! WOW!

    Your vision, compassion in practice, outreach and faithfulness are amazing, especially in the lives of those whom you serve and to whom you minister. The family groups sounds like a wonderfully adaptive outreach program and will reap dividends here on this earth as well as in heaven. Multipled! I like this idea of yours.

    Your non-profit is worthy of prayerful support and active input as you adctively address poverty in your area there in Wyoming. Are you aware of a laity response in North Carolina called Icebox Ministries? This is how this young adult, Naz couple moved from the formal setting and ito their community to address poverty. Mr. and Mrs. Steve Fountain are their names. They conceived of and began to personally vision and implement an address poverty program. I don't know how long the growing season is in your area, but that is where the Fountain's made their entry into the practical interface with poverty. I wish I was closer. I'd be one of those personally putting feet and hands to work. I know there will be locals who respond to your leadership moving forward.

    I am especially thankful you shared your insightful assessment of organizational success focus vs the tension created that may harm others in seeking growth. I hope those who have harmed your precious victim have several long talks with Jesus both now AND at the pearly gates. It is one thing to "read these stories" and totally another matter to incorporate, love, accomodate where possible and still lift up Christ. I can and am already learning from your example.

    May the PreciousPresence of our Risen Saviour walk with you today, love through you this Sabbath, and expand the kingdom, one family group at a time.

    Thanks, Pastor Kyle.
    Thanks Billy Cox, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  33. #73
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    The local church culture needs to change. I have an extended family member involved in abuse case that was not reported in a local Nazarene church (For reasons of privacy I cannot give details). AThere is a code of silence that must be broken. Our policy is zero tolerance.

    The crash course video (Nazarene child safety in 1:38) is quirky, amateur and prophetic. Watch it:

    https://vimeo.com/168234703?utm_sour...campaign=28749

  34. #74
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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Non-reporting is an extremely lonely walk and very isolating. My heart goes out to your extended family member, Bob. So glad you are squarely in their corner.

  35. #75
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    Non-reporting is an extremely lonely walk and very isolating. My heart goes out to your extended family member, Bob. So glad you are squarely in their corner.
    Abusers thrive in secrecy. But I think a lot of Nazarenes just don't know how to sniff out high risk people. When it comes to detecting potential problems we are simply not looking and listening.

    For example, I currently lead a Children's Church program at our Church. We have a number of outreach kids that come from the surrounding neighborhood. One child is dropped off before Church by his mom and picked up after. He is emotionally unstable and blirts out all kinds of interesting things. We suspect mom is using drugs (among other things), can't prove it though. When the child is with us, I'm on high alert. I'm just waiting for the day I actually have something to report. The very moment he says, "Momma's hitting me." I'm reporting. Many times she is late to pick up the child. She's pretty much on her best behavior around us, but the minute she shows up high or drunk, I'm reporting it to the police directly. If he has marks, burns or cuts on his body, I'll be asking open ended questions, "Oh my, you have booboo's, what happened, when did this happen, how did this happen?" If it doesn't add up, and I have suspicions, I'm reporting. I don't care if she get ****ed, I'm reporting. Let the authorities decide where it should go.

  36. #76
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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    I believe you. I'm grateful for that example of vigilance, and pre-determined action. Wish I could give that post a 1,000 likes.

    One of the things I'm not sure we in the church settings remember when confronting "secret abuse" is this: we do not know if we are the first reporter or the 12 th reporter. That's not our concern as you so clearly stated it. The authorities need these reports to intervene and contravene.

    What I do know is this: if we are the first to believe and we do our reporting function, then the second victim, God forbid it is so, but it is highly likely, the second victim will be more likely to be believed because of the first report already being in the hands of the authorities.

    Most often the first report is the best way the authorities can uncover a cluster. No one wants this to happen to THEIR child, grandchild, niece, nephew...

    Continue to preach to the choir, Rev. Hunter.
    Thanks Bob Hunter, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  37. #77
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    A recent news article has a bit more detail.

    Excerpt:
    A former employee at the shelter, who did not want to appear on camera, says Preston was known as "Papa Jay" by those living there. She claims Preston would often smoke and drink with teenagers at the shelter. The former worker says she reported an adult staffer having sex with a younger teen at the shelter and quit after Preston took no action. She believes the shelter should be shut down.
    If the former employee is telling the truth, this is more profoundly troubling than what was formerly reported; for the pastor in question, as well as for the Church of the Nazarene's connection to the homeless shelter.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  38. #78
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    A recent news article has a bit more detail.

    Excerpt:


    If the former employee is telling the truth, this is more profoundly troubling than what was formerly reported; for the pastor in question, as well as for the Church of the Nazarene's connection to the homeless shelter.
    The staffer in question is lame, ignorant or uncaring. If you see an adult having sex with a minor, you simply call the police. Done. Period. Very simple. Not rocket science. Who cares about the Pastor? He's irrelevant. Call the authorities to investigate immediately.

  39. #79
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    The staffer in question is lame, ignorant or uncaring. If you see an adult having sex with a minor, you simply call the police. Done. Period. Very simple. Not rocket science. Who cares about the Pastor? He's irrelevant. Call the authorities to investigate immediately.
    This! 10, nay 1,000 times over. This and your previous post is spot on. Report immediately. Zero tolerance. No need to report to a supervisor first because the supervisor doesn't have a choice anyway. Report immediately. If you want to extend grace, you can visit them in jail.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  40. #80
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    This! 10, nay 1,000 times over. This and your previous post is spot on. Report immediately. Zero tolerance. No need to report to a supervisor first because the supervisor doesn't have a choice anyway. Report immediately. If you want to extend grace, you can visit them in jail.
    For once we agree on something. Good!

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