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Thread: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN


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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis M. Scott View Post
    Without a doubt, those closest to the situation have been instructed strongly to not talk about it at all. Those who speak freely are those that are either least informed, or reckless and disregarding legal counsel to let it be handled discretely. That is often perceived as cover-up. Innocent people - in this case, apparently a child, and family members of anyone that might be found guilty - do not deserve to be dragged through the gauntlet of public harassment.
    In some cases, legal counsel instructs leadership to not even ask for prayer. When such instructions are violated, liability insurance is able to deny coverage, but organizational financial liability remains. Sometimes leadership can be the object of screaming charges of cover-up, and their only option is to stand there silently, blinking and holding their breath: all the while frequently aware that false information runs rampant.
    The whole situation stinks.
    I am not sure most appreciate how difficult a situation like this is. What if information comes to light, and the church immediately reports it to the authorities? We would agree this is not an attempt to hide anything. What if the authorities then require keeping quiet, because they are building a case against others? The church speaking actually disrupts a case and keeps other innocents in peril. Some will undoubtedly say the church is hiding something, because they were not more forthcoming, yet those people do not know the whole story.

    Another question is how much does one inform? There is a time and place to let others know, but how wide should that circle be, and how much should be said? What is proper, and what is giving too much information? One can harm the victims with too much information, or create grounds for some to take advantage of the situation and make false claims. Often there are legal limits placed on churches in the midst of these proceedings. Yes, one wants to be open and transparent. Yes, one wants to protect the church. Yes, one wants to protect and care for the victims. Yes, one wants to do what is necessary to ensure it does not happen again. Yet these impulses conflict with each other, and navigating what these goals require is tricky.

    Some people have too much experience in dealing with these issues. It is disheartening to see issues like this, and it makes me furious. We are trying to find solutions, and make sure these things do not happen in the future. It is just not easy.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Some people have too much experience in dealing with these issues. It is disheartening to see issues like this, and it makes me furious. We are trying to find solutions, and make sure these things do not happen in the future. It is just not easy.
    We have no means of ensuring that these things do not happen in the future. If a person has latent tendencies toward pedophilia, they bury it deep, and understandably so. If we could figure out what leads someone with latent tendencies to act on them, then that would be a step toward prevention.

    The consequences are severe and well-known, so why would someone suddenly act on these impulses?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    Naznet Owner Dave McClung's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    We have no means of ensuring that these things do not happen in the future. If a person has latent tendencies toward pedophilia, they bury it deep, and understandably so. If we could figure out what leads someone with latent tendencies to act on them, then that would be a step toward prevention.

    The consequences are severe and well-known, so why would someone suddenly act on these impulses?
    Billy, I don't disagree that it is impossible to prevent the first instance of misconduct. What the church is struggling with is the "2nd chance" misconduct. The pattern has been repeated over and over -- A person is caught in misconduct. He (every instance I know about is a male) confesses, claims forgiveness and promises never to do it again. Because the person seems sincere and has a period of time of good conduct, he is given a second chance.

    I am unaware of any case in which a church has been held liable for the first time a person engages in misconduct. It is always the giving of the second chance that creates the liability.

    I know it seems harsh, but the church has to adopt a policy of "No second chances when children are involved."

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    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    The problem is that we treat everything as black and white. The person is a pedophile or they're perfectly fine. We move to "second chances" because we don't have other categories. It's especially tough within our tradition of sanctification, right? We don't really allow practically for people who struggle with things.

    People hide their tendencies towards all sorts of things - sex, alcohol, pedophilia, whatever - because we tend to exclude them from full inclusion in fellowship if they're honest about their struggles. I don't think we should be "giving second chances" in any way - I've had people I care about abused because of this - but that doesn't mean we can't find ways to healthily include people in our congregational life who also need accountability for their struggles.

    I can't think of a congregation that would let a repentant thief count the money, but there are plenty that find ways for them to be participants in the congregation in healthy ways. But so long as we continue to send the message, "if you struggle with anything after you're sanctified, you're broken," we're going to keep having things like this happen. We've got to get over the connection of sanctification with perfection.
    ...just my $.02.
    Thanks Bob Hunter, Kevin Timpe, Gina Stevenson, Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  6. #86
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    The problem is that we treat everything as black and white. The person is a pedophile or they're perfectly fine. We move to "second chances" because we don't have other categories. It's especially tough within our tradition of sanctification, right? We don't really allow practically for people who struggle with things.

    People hide their tendencies towards all sorts of things - sex, alcohol, pedophilia, whatever - because we tend to exclude them from full inclusion in fellowship if they're honest about their struggles. I don't think we should be "giving second chances" in any way - I've had people I care about abused because of this - but that doesn't mean we can't find ways to healthily include people in our congregational life who also need accountability for their struggles.

    I can't think of a congregation that would let a repentant thief count the money, but there are plenty that find ways for them to be participants in the congregation in healthy ways. But so long as we continue to send the message, "if you struggle with anything after you're sanctified, you're broken," we're going to keep having things like this happen. We've got to get over the connection of sanctification with perfection.
    While I can see how the 'victory over sin narrative' might lead holiness people to grant second chances that a reasonable person would deem unwise, I suspect that a doctrinal explanation is just a smokescreen for institutional laziness. The effort to restore and/or disciple a person guilty of misconduct is difficult and the missional return on investment is zero or less. Why not just ship the offender to a different district and let it be *their* problem?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    I have railed against the insurance carrier lawyers dictating church behavior, requiring silence under threat of denying coverage.

    This line of "thinking" due to such threats were covered very admirably on NN by both a commercial lines agent/underwriter as well as a pastor who said the ins company was wrong in their demands and what the consequences experienced were.

    Insurance companies who cover church "malpractice" liability were only 7 at last count. That pretty much is part of the problem, and why the threats are so effective.

    As I understand the upshot of the exposure in the posts on Page TWO of this thread, it was clearly stated coverage for the discovered incident could not be denied. Refusing to renew WAS a definite possiblity, but the lawyers threatening to do so do not particularly inform the specific church client as to that "future vs now" truth.

    AND, most importantly, to cancel existing coverage acc'd to insurance laws in all 50 states requires a 30 days written notice in advance of cancellation.

    The pedophile damage is immediate and the collateral damage extremely widespread.

    I'm with Billy....no second chances. Period.

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Why not just ship the offender to a different district and let it be *their* problem?
    At a previous company, we had a phrase: "Beware managers bearing gifts."
    I imagine the same advice holds true for superintendents.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

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    Full Member Jim Stephenson's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Well, here we go again.....when will our leadership begin to understand that one time is too many? Yes, they change the manual to reflect the aftermath of Bethany First but IF the district superintendents and local pastors and their church board fail to take a rigid stand on this issue, then NOTHING happens.

    I started the thread last year about my church and district leadership. It came to light that a now decredentialed staff minister had committed such an act and the lead pastor did NOTHING....no board meeting, no legally required reporting, no contact with the DS. I resigned over the situation as it was unbiblical and definitely in violation of the manual.

    So when I read each reported incident I am more concerned that the denomination doesn't react to cleanse itself of any credentialed minister who has ANY knowledge of this type of abuse. I, for one, believe a lead pastor is an employee, NOT a called position. If no one does anything about these incidents the Nazarene church is become another hollow, religious organization that may as well forget its mission and keep preaching those feed good sermons, all the while allowing sin to fester and bloom like an antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Read Romans 14:22....I rest my case.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Stephenson View Post
    Well, here we go again.....when will our leadership begin to understand that one time is too many? Yes, they change the manual to reflect the aftermath of Bethany First but IF the district superintendents and local pastors and their church board fail to take a rigid stand on this issue, then NOTHING happens.

    I started the thread last year about my church and district leadership. It came to light that a now decredentialed staff minister had committed such an act and the lead pastor did NOTHING....no board meeting, no legally required reporting, no contact with the DS. I resigned over the situation as it was unbiblical and definitely in violation of the manual.

    So when I read each reported incident I am more concerned that the denomination doesn't react to cleanse itself of any credentialed minister who has ANY knowledge of this type of abuse. I, for one, believe a lead pastor is an employee, NOT a called position. If no one does anything about these incidents the Nazarene church is become another hollow, religious organization that may as well forget its mission and keep preaching those feed good sermons, all the while allowing sin to fester and bloom like an antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Read Romans 14:22....I rest my case.
    I know the pastor in question and I know multiple members of the board of directors for the shelter. I'm not aware of any attempt to sweep this or any other incident under the rug.

    The best policies in the world are typically unable to prevent the first offense.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  11. #91
    Full Member Jim Stephenson's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    This type of deplorable activity, anti-Christ, anti-Biblical, and anti-manual, is why I resigned my board position, one I had held for years....seems our senior pastor and DS just didn't think it important to uphold that "higher standard" language when a staff member was involved.

    If this is where the generals want this to go....we are rapidly becoming the Catholic Church.

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    This is an interesting thread, to say the least. We had in our family a person that molested several girls, his wife denied that he did anything. Molesting of a young girl is, we believe a devastating experience, probably equal to rape, in a sense. It is a shame that some attempt at protecting the innocent, either didn't work or worse was ignored. We will pray for the party's involved.

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    One of the pastors on our District (who also directs a homeless shelter in Paola Kansas) has been arrested for "felony aggravated indecent liberties with a child" and has been held on $500,000 bond.

    Please pray that our Kansas City District leaders are given wisdom on how to deal with this in a way that honors both justice and the church.

    BILL
    Bill, to be quite candid, I haven't heard anything about how wisdom has been displayed by KCDistrict leaders, nor how the church nor homeless shelter are fairing. Any update?

    The reason I ask is that the MSM in Miami County, KS has reported as of the 15th, that there has been a legal resolution in this former Rev Preston's exercise in due process. The headline reads: Preston sentenced to 13 years for child sex crimes

    The good thing is Children do not have to testify. One of the tough things is that Mrs. Preston's, the wife is devastated. Shock still reverbs.

    http://www.republic-online.com/news/...a34d17d1f.html

    Thank you for bringing this to the fore back in July 2016.
    Thanks Bill Morrison, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    Bill, to be quite candid, I haven't heard anything about how wisdom has been displayed by KCDistrict leaders, nor how the church nor homeless shelter are fairing. Any update?

    The reason I ask is that the MSM in Miami County, KS has reported as of the 15th, that there has been a legal resolution in this former Rev Preston's exercise in due process. The headline reads: Preston sentenced to 13 years for child sex crimes

    The good thing is Children do not have to testify. One of the tough things is that Mrs. Preston's, the wife is devastated. Shock still reverbs.

    http://www.republic-online.com/news/...a34d17d1f.html

    Thank you for bringing this to the fore back in July 2016.
    I'm not aware of any more information.
    Thanks (sadly) for the update.
    I can only imagine how this hurts the COTN in Paola.
    I pray God will bring in the right person to salvage this mess and help both the church and the affected children and families.

    BILL
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Naznet Owner Dave McClung's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis M. Scott View Post
    ...In some cases, legal counsel instructs leadership to not even ask for prayer. When such instructions are violated, liability insurance is able to deny coverage, but organizational financial liability remains. Sometimes leadership can be the object of screaming charges of cover-up, and their only option is to stand there silently, blinking and holding their breath: all the while frequently aware that false information runs rampant.
    The whole situation stinks.
    It isn't just "some cases." In every case involving these kinds of charges, legal counsel will advise that the church designate one person to the be official spokesperson for the church. To do otherwise results in confusion. It is really important that unauthorized people don't start speaking on behalf of the church.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave McClung View Post
    It is really important that unauthorized people don't start speaking on behalf of the church.
    And therein lies the rub. The 'church' isn't the only voice that needs to be heard.

    The one that is totally lost inside and outside the church is the victim's voice. The church, nor the church's lawyers speak for the victim. NEVER.

    As the old saying goes, there are (at least) two sides to every story. The church's lead, commercial liability insurance attorney is interested in shutting down the money hemorrhage. I bet there isn't a single one of us on here who can offer aid and comfort and support of the victims in this particular instance. We only know the church's name, location, and the church's attorney, for all practical purposes.

    It's a very sad day when pastoral trust like this is shattered. Not just for the church.

    Silence is deadly.
    Last edited by Rosey Morgan; March 19th, 2017 at 06:54 PM.

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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    And therein lies the rub. The 'church' isn't the only voice that needs to be heard.

    The one that is totally lost inside and outside the church is the victim's voice. The church, nor the church's lawyers speak for the victim. NEVER.

    As the old saying goes, there are (at least) two sides to every story. The church's lead, commercial liability insurance attorney is interested in shutting down the money hemorrhage. I bet there isn't a single one of us on here who can offer aid and comfort and support of the victims in this particular instance. We only know the church's name, location, and the church's attorney, for all practical purposes.

    It's a very sad day when pastoral trust like this is shattered. Not just for the church.

    Silence is deadly.
    Help me understand what it is you want here Rosey. Are you saying we should name the victim and give her/him the voice to speak?
    Are you advocating that someone be designated to speak on the victim's behalf, in the same manner as Dr. McClung indicated that only one voice should be authorized on behalf of the church?
    Or are you saying something entirely different?

    This is not a critical complaint, but a sincere opportunity to better understand the meaning of your post.

    Like you, I recognize that any abuse is appalling and needs to be stopped.

    Most likely, you also carry some form of insurance in case of an emergency if you are liable in some property matter (be that auto or homeowner's insurance, the exception to that may be so-called "no fault" auto insurance). If we have a problem where we are deemed culpable in any matter, one would assume that we follow our insurer's advice as well. Is the church at fault for doing that?

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    Help me understand what it is you want here Rosey. Are you saying we should name the victim and give her/him the voice to speak?
    Are you advocating that someone be designated to speak on the victim's behalf, in the same manner as Dr. McClung indicated that only one voice should be authorized on behalf of the church?
    Or are you saying something entirely different?

    This is not a critical complaint, but a sincere opportunity to better understand the meaning of your post.

    Like you, I recognize that any abuse is appalling and needs to be stopped.

    Most likely, you also carry some form of insurance in case of an emergency if you are liable in some property matter (be that auto or homeowner's insurance, the exception to that may be so-called "no fault" auto insurance). If we have a problem where we are deemed culpable in any matter, one would assume that we follow our insurer's advice as well. Is the church at fault for doing that?
    David, thank you for your response. At the risk of being pedantic, or overstating the obvious, I begin here:
    You have a pastor's heart. I know this from your writings on this forum. And our brief, interactions when I was the sole administrator of Facebook's TRANSPARENCY forum, which ceased to exist Dec 2015.

    I am a layperson. I have a victim advocacy heart. These are two widely separated datapoints on the wide spectrum of Sexual Abuse in the church, perpetrated by those in authority within a specific church, synagogue, parish, etc.

    Third point, the primary danger of orchestrated silence around the discovery of this horror within the congregational life of a church is this: Silence allows abuse to continue. Silence on the part of the abuser. Silence upon the part of the wife/husband of the abuser. Silence on the part of the observers of the abuser while abusing. Silence and shaming of the victims.

    While the perpetrator may be caught and charged, enforced silence, especially instituted by Liability Insurance Carrier Attorneys, allows abuse OF THE VICTIMS to continue, unabated, untreated, unreconciled, and ultimately the high probability of " lost to the kingdom" by the clumsy, unsound edicts of those serving Mammon.

    There is a better model. With two specific reference points I offer for consideation, David.

    As admin on TRANSPARENCY and since, the Chuck Swindoll --Fullerton CA First Evangelical Free Church, 1992 MODEL for handling this matter is the much preferred model for how Pastors and church behavior forged a new way of dealing with this matter.

    The second model is the G.R.A.C.E. model also addressed below.

    Swindoll's model is a comprehensive way. An exposure way. A post exposure explusion of perpetrator AND WIFE way. An internal church investigation modelled way. An initiatiave and ongoing cooperative with the local District Attorney for however long it takes way. A post event chronicaling way. A public confession via letter way. The Abuser actually in attendance at that morning worship way. The extensive counseling at no expense to the victims way for however long it took way. A creation of actual written aids for other churches to request and still receive to this day way. And Swindoll spoke publicly about it after the fact, as well as in writing.

    This is the OPPOSITE of Insurance Lawyer's mandated silence and one designated spokesperson model highlighted above.

    No mention have I found in the spot checking of post 1992 literature written either by Swindoll, published by Christianity Today, just perused before replying to you here, have ever mentioned the "insurance carrier directive" model. Not even as of this date. If they did so, it has not been mentioned. If Swindoll's Fullerton Church did not, the footprints, documenting what works what doesn't work, what helps, what doesn't help VICTIMS is the model here.

    This is a model of VICTIM focus, not a model of silence and gathering up ecclestical robes with vows of silence model enforced by a 3rd party. I don't think it makes any difference if Fullerton was "Incorporated" at the time of the discovery, or not.

    I trust this gives you a "peer reference, aka a leadership/pastoral reference" for a better way in confronting and seeking confession and resolution in this matter. . Last count I made, I know of I believe it 8 active cases within the walls of Nazdom local congregations. God only knows how many haven't made it to the public announcement on the internet level. A simple search of Google, seeking headlines only of Nazarene Sexual Abuse will return horrific numbers of recent and still open cases.

    As of July 2009, the Nazarene GMC listing of pastors who surrendered either voluntarily or by force their credentials due to sexual sin as determined by the church, numbered 458. God only knows what that number has swelled to by now. This was a publicly displayed on Channel 9 TV news April 24, 2009 broadcast, as an exhibit provided Ch 9 news.

    As in all things, there is legalism and there is Christ centered/modelled responses. I can't even fathom children or women being brought to Christ in this matter and Jesus checking to see that the rules and edicts and practices of the Liability Insurers is the SECOND phone call and dictator of prescriptive behavior after the eruption to the surface of this kind of damaging abuse in the church.

    My Christ would be appalled. He is my behavior model.

    The second model I would elevate is G.R.A.C.E. model, led by highly successful, former A.D.A., Boz Tchaividjian. He has two massive "wins" under his belt when it comes to approaching and fixing broken church systems who have been forced to confront this horror. The newest "win" was the huge effort in regards to Bob Jones University, which was finally brought to the surface and remedial action applied in December of 2015, in a public, school assembly, conducted by the President of the University.

    So, rather than any on here...and I'm NOT saying you are doing this, David, parsing and parrying with me, I offer these two "more productive models" for consideration, emulation, and promulgation.

    There are bear pokers, frightened clergy, frightened laity, paralyzed church staffers in these forums. I am not a frightened laity, unless one is speaking of the tremendous loss and injury, repeated due to the veil of 3rd party enforced and practiced SILENCING of victims. I push back on that broken, twisted, NON-Christlike model.
    Thanks David Troxler, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    David, thank you for your response. At the risk of being pedantic, or overstating the obvious, I begin here:
    You have a pastor's heart. I know this from your writings on this forum. And our brief, interactions when I was the sole administrator of Facebook's TRANSPARENCY forum, which ceased to exist Dec 2015.

    I am a layperson. I have a victim advocacy heart. These are two widely separated datapoints on the wide spectrum of Sexual Abuse in the church, perpetrated by those in authority within a specific church, synagogue, parish, etc.

    Third point, the primary danger of orchestrated silence around the discovery of this horror within the congregational life of a church is this: Silence allows abuse to continue. Silence on the part of the abuser. Silence upon the part of the wife/husband of the abuser. Silence on the part of the observers of the abuser while abusing. Silence and shaming of the victims.

    While the perpetrator may be caught and charged, enforced silence, especially instituted by Liability Insurance Carrier Attorneys, allows abuse OF THE VICTIMS to continue, unabated, untreated, unreconciled, and ultimately the high probability of " lost to the kingdom" by the clumsy, unsound edicts of those serving Mammon.

    There is a better model. With two specific reference points I offer for consideation, David.

    As admin on TRANSPARENCY and since, the Chuck Swindoll --Fullerton CA First Evangelical Free Church, 1992 MODEL for handling this matter is the much preferred model for how Pastors and church behavior forged a new way of dealing with this matter.

    The second model is the G.R.A.C.E. model also addressed below.

    Swindoll's model is a comprehensive way. An exposure way. A post exposure explusion of perpetrator AND WIFE way. An internal church investigation modelled way. An initiatiave and ongoing cooperative with the local District Attorney for however long it takes way. A post event chronicaling way. A public confession via letter way. The Abuser actually in attendance at that morning worship way. The extensive counseling at no expense to the victims way for however long it took way. A creation of actual written aids for other churches to request and still receive to this day way. And Swindoll spoke publicly about it after the fact, as well as in writing.

    This is the OPPOSITE of Insurance Lawyer's mandated silence and one designated spokesperson model highlighted above.

    No mention have I found in the spot checking of post 1992 literature written either by Swindoll, published by Christianity Today, just perused before replying to you here, have ever mentioned the "insurance carrier directive" model. Not even as of this date. If they did so, it has not been mentioned. If Swindoll's Fullerton Church did not, the footprints, documenting what works what doesn't work, what helps, what doesn't help VICTIMS is the model here.

    This is a model of VICTIM focus, not a model of silence and gathering up ecclestical robes with vows of silence model enforced by a 3rd party. I don't think it makes any difference if Fullerton was "Incorporated" at the time of the discovery, or not.

    I trust this gives you a "peer reference, aka a leadership/pastoral reference" for a better way in confronting and seeking confession and resolution in this matter. . Last count I made, I know of I believe it 8 active cases within the walls of Nazdom local congregations. God only knows how many haven't made it to the public announcement on the internet level. A simple search of Google, seeking headlines only of Nazarene Sexual Abuse will return horrific numbers of recent and still open cases.

    As of July 2009, the Nazarene GMC listing of pastors who surrendered either voluntarily or by force their credentials due to sexual sin as determined by the church, numbered 458. God only knows what that number has swelled to by now. This was a publicly displayed on Channel 9 TV news April 24, 2009 broadcast, as an exhibit provided Ch 9 news.

    As in all things, there is legalism and there is Christ centered/modelled responses. I can't even fathom children or women being brought to Christ in this matter and Jesus checking to see that the rules and edicts and practices of the Liability Insurers is the SECOND phone call and dictator of prescriptive behavior after the eruption to the surface of this kind of damaging abuse in the church.

    My Christ would be appalled. He is my behavior model.

    The second model I would elevate is G.R.A.C.E. model, led by highly successful, former A.D.A., Boz Tchaividjian. He has two massive "wins" under his belt when it comes to approaching and fixing broken church systems who have been forced to confront this horror. The newest "win" was the huge effort in regards to Bob Jones University, which was finally brought to the surface and remedial action applied in December of 2015, in a public, school assembly, conducted by the President of the University.

    So, rather than any on here...and I'm NOT saying you are doing this, David, parsing and parrying with me, I offer these two "more productive models" for consideration, emulation, and promulgation.

    There are bear pokers, frightened clergy, frightened laity, paralyzed church staffers in these forums. I am not a frightened laity, unless one is speaking of the tremendous loss and injury, repeated due to the veil of 3rd party enforced and practiced SILENCING of victims. I push back on that broken, twisted, NON-Christlike model.
    Rosey,
    Believe it or not, what you wrote here hasn't helped me. Boil it down without the superfluous terms and adjectives.

    If I can understand any of this, here is what I am gleaning, from the Bob Jones situation, you seem to be indicating that the head of the organization (in this case, I presume you mean at the level of the General Church), someone get up and confess we have sinned and do this publicly. Is this correct?

    While the analogy breaks down somewhat, it comes close to Hester Prynne wearing the Scarlet Letter on her chest. We bear that publicly for all to see. Is this the suggestion you are making?

    I ask that because I am still not sure how that makes it up to the victim for her/his voice to be heard and recognized.

    Thank you for responding thoroughly, although as I said, I'm not sure what you said except for this part: thank you for your observation about me having a pastor's heart. I do appreciate that very much. I figured that part out at least.

    dave t
    Thanks Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    Rosey,
    Believe it or not, what you wrote here hasn't helped me. Boil it down without the superfluous terms and adjectives.

    dave t
    I REJECT your criticism. You either read it or you decline to read it. This is the way I speak. This is the way I write. It stands as written. John the Revelator is more difficult to read than what I penned.

    You're welcome.

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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Rosey,
    I am not trying to be belligerent in any manner and I am sorry if that is how it has come across.
    I really want to understand what you are trying to say.
    dave t

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    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    I REJECT your criticism. You either read it or you decline to read it. This is the way I speak. This is the way I write. It stands as written. John the Revelator is more difficult to read than what I penned.

    You're welcome.
    I don't think it was a criticism, Rosey. I, too, had trouble following your answer to his question.

    You mentioned a model you prefer, and you described it... but not in a way that I could tell how it would actually look in practice.
    Thanks David Troxler, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Rich, I don't get you preacher types. What's so hard about you all reaching out to Rev Swindoll, your peer and hearing/learning/reading from his own pen? Go to the source. His guides are still in print. Still available by contacting him at his current church.

    What's preventing preachers googling Bob Jone's University/Boz Tchaividjian (BGraham's grandson) and Dec 2015 public address by the school president doing this sexual abuse and fixit G.R.A.C.E.
    repair model better? Go to the source.

    It appears to me it is easier to parse the messenger instead of confront the sources. Why is that?

    And just for the record, Rich? The next time a parishioner shakes your hand at the door after Sunday AM worship's sermon and says you were "superfluous and used too many adjectives" aka do it over...
    ..........well, I'm calling a spade a spade.

  24. #104
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    Rich, I don't get you preacher types. What's so hard about you all reaching out to Rev Swindoll, your peer and hearing/learning/reading from his own pen? Go to the source. His guides are still in print. Still available by contacting him at his current church.

    What's preventing preachers googling Bob Jone's University/Boz Tchaividjian (BGraham's grandson) and Dec 2015 public address by the school president doing this sexual abuse and fixit repair model better? Go to the source.

    It appears to me it is easier to parse the messenger instead of confront the sources. Why is that?

    And just for the record, Rich? The next time a parishioner shakes your hand at the door after Sunday AM worship's sermon and says you were "superfluous and used too many adjectives" aka do it over...
    ..........well, I'm calling a spade a spade.
    I'm already spending more time on NazNet than I should today. Perhaps later I'll try to look up those other resources you mentioned. Thanks for mentioning them.

    Until then, it's up to you what to do with this feedback. Just like it would be up to me if someone said it to me after a Sunday morning message. I'd probably start by asking some others to see if they'd validate that feedback or if it was just that person, etc. If more than one person told me they had trouble following what I was trying to say, I'd know the problem was probably me, not them.

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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    Rich, I don't get you preacher types. What's so hard about you all reaching out to Rev Swindoll, your peer and hearing/learning/reading from his own pen? Go to the source. His guides are still in print. Still available by contacting him at his current church.

    What's preventing preachers googling Bob Jone's University/Boz Tchaividjian (BGraham's grandson) and Dec 2015 public address by the school president doing this sexual abuse and fixit G.R.A.C.E.
    repair model better? Go to the source.

    It appears to me it is easier to parse the messenger instead of confront the sources. Why is that?

    And just for the record, Rich? The next time a parishioner shakes your hand at the door after Sunday AM worship's sermon and says you were "superfluous and used too many adjectives" aka do it over...
    ..........well, I'm calling a spade a spade.
    Rich is not to blame for the superflous and adjectives remark. That is mine.
    I'm still at a loss to understand what you wrote and want to understand.

  26. #106
    Senior Member Marsha Lynn's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    I'm still at a loss to understand what you wrote and want to understand.
    At the risk of further confusing things . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    Swindoll's model is a comprehensive way. An exposure way. A post exposure explusion of perpetrator AND WIFE way. An internal church investigation modelled way. An initiatiave and ongoing cooperative with the local District Attorney for however long it takes way. A post event chronicaling way. A public confession via letter way. The Abuser actually in attendance at that morning worship way. The extensive counseling at no expense to the victims way for however long it took way. A creation of actual written aids for other churches to request and still receive to this day way. And Swindoll spoke publicly about it after the fact, as well as in writing.
    It appears that the procedure here is to decline any call to silence by an insurance company. Instead, church leaders:

    1) openly address the issue
    2) conduct an internal investigation as well as cooperating with the district attorney
    3) read a letter of confession from the perpetrator with him present in the service
    4) subsequently expel both the perpetrator AND HIS WIFE from the church (emphasis in original post)
    5) provide extensive counseling for the victim
    6) document the entire process
    7) share the documentation for the benefit of other congregations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosey Morgan View Post
    The second model I would elevate is G.R.A.C.E. model, led by highly successful, former A.D.A., Boz Tchaividjian.
    G.R.A.C.E. = Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment.

    Here's a discussion: https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/abuse-boz-tchividjian

    The common theme seems to be that a hush-hush approach cloaks the entire event in shame and darkness. Yes, this happened, but we can't talk about it. Yes, children suffered, but we need to keep quiet and act as though it didn't happen. There is no shared grief and mourning, no open support for the victim, only embarrassed silence.

    I guess a good comparison would be if a child lost a parent to death how the church would hug her and cry with her and offer comfort in whatever way they could -- maybe with extreme clumsiness and terrible theology, but at least making an effort.

    What happens with abuse cases might be more like if an infant were stillborn and the entire congregation agreed together to never mention the baby again in order to avoid stirring up grief in the bereaved parents or surviving siblings -- as though the family will "get over it" more quickly if everyone pretends the baby never existed.
    Last edited by Marsha Lynn; March 23rd, 2017 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Punctuation
    Only the power of the Holy Spirit can get truth past the obvious.

  27. #107
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Marsha, thank you for serving as an intermediary. This indeed helps me understand what Rosey was saying.
    The final illustration about the stillborn baby has given me a very clear picture.
    dave t
    Thanks Marsha Lynn, Lucas Finch, Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  28. #108
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    Marsha, thank you for serving as an intermediary. This indeed helps me understand what Rosey was saying.
    Ditto. Thank you!

  29. #109
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: More alleged child molestation in the COTN

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    Marsha, thank you for serving as an intermediary. This indeed helps me understand what Rosey was saying.
    The final illustration about the stillborn baby has given me a very clear picture.
    dave t
    And Rosey,
    I do want to thank you for bringing these pieces of information forward.
    Sincerely,
    dave t
    Thanks Marsha Lynn, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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