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Thread: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

  1. #401
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bemis View Post
    I'm not ok with that - I know several pastors who struggle with depression.
    You realize this is not a rebuttal of Bohi's position. Right?

    One could say, 'I know several pastors who dabble in pornography.' and that does not sanction the use of pornography.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  2. #402
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    I know from interactions on Facebook that Brian Powell, DS on the Kentucky District, is a big supporter of Dan Bohi.
    Color me surprised.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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  3. #403
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Color me surprised.
    Which color would you like? I have a Billy Cox coloring book.
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  4. #404
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    So I wonder why this ministry and others get a free pass in Nazarene churches, since some of those bullet points are explicitly counter to Nazarene doctrine. Is it because those inviting him have the same beliefs? Is it because the ends (numbers) justify the means? Quite controversial indeed.
    Easy...

    1. Bohi dials things back depending on the audience. (this is public speaking 101)

    2. He reliably conducts services where things happen. Experience is golden.

    3. Those who get bent out of shape over his message, methods and lack of accountability are actually playing right into his core narrative. They might as well refer to Bohi's followers as a basket of deplorables.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Tim Troxler, Jim Chabot, Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  5. #405
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    Which color would you like? I have a Billy Cox coloring book.
    Just don't color my nose brown.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  6. #406
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Just don't color my nose brown.
    Send me ten bucks and it's a deal.
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  7. #407
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Reading through the Vice President Mike Pence and the "Billy Graham Rule" thread, I really had a hard time understanding why Christians have a problem with leaders taking the high-road when it comes to meeting with the opposite sex. Today, I came across the actual "rule" The Modesto Manifesto: A Declaration of Biblical Integrity on the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association website. The advice about the danger of sexual immorality, to me, should be a given. However, the fourth point stood out to me and I thought I would share it in this thread:
    "The fourth and final issue was publicity. The tendency among some evangelists was to exaggerate their successes or to claim higher attendance numbers than they really had. This likewise discredited evangelism and brought the whole enterprise under suspicion. It often made the press so suspicious of evangelists that they refused to take notice of their work. In Modesto we committed ourselves to integrity in our publicity and our reporting."

    This advice reminded me of the Dan Bohi Controversy.
    Thanks David Troxler, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  8. #408
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Reading through the Vice President Mike Pence and the "Billy Graham Rule" thread, I really had a hard time understanding why Christians have a problem with leaders taking the high-road when it comes to meeting with the opposite sex. Today, I came across the actual "rule" The Modesto Manifesto: A Declaration of Biblical Integrity on the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association website. The advice about the danger of sexual immorality, to me, should be a given. However, the fourth point stood out to me and I thought I would share it in this thread:
    "The fourth and final issue was publicity. The tendency among some evangelists was to exaggerate their successes or to claim higher attendance numbers than they really had. This likewise discredited evangelism and brought the whole enterprise under suspicion. It often made the press so suspicious of evangelists that they refused to take notice of their work. In Modesto we committed ourselves to integrity in our publicity and our reporting."

    This advice reminded me of the Dan Bohi Controversy.
    Well, I just preached a revival, and we had hundreds, if not thousands, saved, sanctified, and healed. Which is pretty good, considering we probably had at most 25-30 on Sunday morning and probably half that in the evenings. Honestly, I wouldn't exaggerate. Not in a million years.
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  9. #409
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    Well, I just preached a revival, and we had hundreds, if not thousands, saved, sanctified, and healed. Which is pretty good, considering we probably had at most 25-30 on Sunday morning and probably half that in the evenings. Honestly, I wouldn't exaggerate. Not in a million years.
    My Dad used to refer to some attendance estimates by asking if that was 'ministerially speaking'.
    Laughing Gina Stevenson, Greg Farra - thanks for this funny post

  10. #410
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    While I can understand the intent behind the Billy Graham Rule and don't want to cast aspersions of nefarious intent on those who practice it, its legalistic undertones (which can and do at times lead to gender discrimination, albeit unintentional) have always given me pause. A recent tweet from Rachel Held Evans sums up my feelings: "I support boundaries in marriage, just not legalistic rules that can't make a distinction between a business lunch & a candlelit dinner."
    Last edited by Cam Pence; April 5th, 2017 at 08:39 AM.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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  11. #411
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    As for the congregations I expect they already have a good understanding of the "gospel message". Any confusion, if any?, must be in dans message?? The recipe for spiritual uplifting that I read of and experienced is to praise the Lord.

    Indeed Paul did so while in chains.

    Sing praises to the Lord. Let the Spirit uplift you.

    Those who had faith in God recommended so long ago.
    Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God.
    "The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?"
    (Psalms 27:1)

  12. #412
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Eight Symptoms of False Teaching J.C. Ryle

    1. There is an undeniable zeal in some teachers of error their earnestness makes many people think they must be right.

    2. There is a great appearance of learning and theological knowledge many think that such clever and intellectual men must surely be safe to listen to.

    3. There is a general tendency to completely free and independent thinking today many like to prove their independence of judgment by believing the newest ideas, which are nothing but novelties.

    4. There is a wide-spread desire to appear kind, loving, and open-minded many seem half-ashamed to say that anybody can be wrong or is a false teacher.

    5. There is always a portion of half-truth taught by modern false teachers they are always using scriptural words and phrases, but with unscriptural meaning.

    6. There is a public craving for a more sensational and entertaining worship people are impatient with the more inward and invisible work of God within the hearts of men.

    7. There is a superficial readiness all around to believe anyone who talks cleverly, lovingly and earnestly, forgetting that Satan often masquerades himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14).

    8. There is a wide-spread ignorance among professing Christians every heretic who speaks well is surely believed, and anyone who doubts him is called narrow-minded and unloving.

    All these are especially symptoms of our times. I challenge any honest and observant person to deny them. These tend to make the assaults of false doctrine today especially dangerous and make it even more important to say loudly, Do not be carried away with strange doctrine!
    J. C. Ryle (1816-1900)
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  13. #413
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Eight Symptoms of False Teaching J.C. Ryle

    1. There is an undeniable zeal in some teachers of error their earnestness makes many people think they must be right.

    2. There is a great appearance of learning and theological knowledge many think that such clever and intellectual men must surely be safe to listen to.

    3. There is a general tendency to completely free and independent thinking today many like to prove their independence of judgment by believing the newest ideas, which are nothing but novelties.

    4. There is a wide-spread desire to appear kind, loving, and open-minded many seem half-ashamed to say that anybody can be wrong or is a false teacher.

    5. There is always a portion of half-truth taught by modern false teachers they are always using scriptural words and phrases, but with unscriptural meaning.

    6. There is a public craving for a more sensational and entertaining worship people are impatient with the more inward and invisible work of God within the hearts of men.

    7. There is a superficial readiness all around to believe anyone who talks cleverly, lovingly and earnestly, forgetting that Satan often masquerades himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14).

    8. There is a wide-spread ignorance among professing Christians every heretic who speaks well is surely believed, and anyone who doubts him is called narrow-minded and unloving.

    All these are especially symptoms of our times. I challenge any honest and observant person to deny them. These tend to make the assaults of false doctrine today especially dangerous and make it even more important to say loudly, Do not be carried away with strange doctrine!
    J. C. Ryle (1816-1900)
    It's a wonder that Christianity survived the 19th century.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Steve Hager - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Lucas Finch, Kevin Wright - thanks for this funny post

  14. #414
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    It's a wonder that Christianity survived the 19th century.
    Matthew 16:18 (NIV)

    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
    Thanks Billy Cox - "thanks" for this post

  15. #415
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Matthew 16:18 (NIV)

    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
    <J.C. Ryle mode>Hades may not overcome the church, but lazy, greedy Christians might very well do so.</J.C. Ryle mode>

    Right?

    People give me grief about not believing in the church, but J.C. Ryle makes me look like an optimist in full Pollyanna mode.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Cam Pence, Lucas Finch, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  16. #416
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    This was posted on FB by Dan this morning.

    One of the most dangerous rulers of darkness that satan has unleashed is a powerful corporate spirit of religion . It's main assignment is to prevent Gods people from moving into whatever new times and seasons God desires for His church. The spirit of religion is the greatest preserver of the status quo. It devises ways and means to make the old wineskin so appealing that Christian leaders are either oblivious to Gods new wineskin or they know about it and actively oppose it. It causes it's victims to believe that the old is the will of God. This demon over the church does what it can to prevent our minds from being transformed to believe the Word of God . We must battle and destroy whatever principality it is that is keeping the church from walking in the power of the primitive New Testament church again. Holy Spirit help us to cry out to you , and consecrate ourselves to you until your kingdom comes and your will is done on earth as it is in heaven .
    I would be interested in other takes on his thoughts.

    My opinion/s:

    1. To some degree I agree. I have wondered over the years about the "cloud by day & fire by night" moving into areas of life and ministry we have avoided or established our doctrine against something that God may approve and desire. We are pretty obligated to stay with our historic pronouncements and doctrines.

    2. It "seems" quite bold of Dan to say what he said. And, it "seems" to me that he is speaking to and about the top leadership of the Church of the Nazarene. To dangle such a paragraph out there, being a Nazarene and ministering in mostly Nazarene churches, it doesn't make sense to me that his is referring to others. If I made such a post or anyone in active ministry in the CotN, I or they should expect a phone call!

    Fascinating. I'd say to some degree he is right. How in the world does a/can a denomination move or follow the "Cloud/Fire" freely when we have historically limited our destinations? And, I would say he is fairly well obligated to move wherever the Spirit may lead him or be unfaithful to or against what he is saying.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Last edited by Wes Smith; April 20th, 2017 at 09:23 AM.
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  17. #417
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    This was posted on FB by Dan this morning.



    I would be interested in other takes on his thoughts.

    My opinion/s:

    1. To some degree I agree. I have wondered over the years about the "cloud by day & fire by night" moving into areas of life and ministry we have avoided or established our doctrine against something that God may approve and desire. We are pretty obligated to stay with our historic pronouncements and doctrines.

    2. It "seems" quite bold of Dan to say what he said. And, it "seems" to me that he is speaking to and about the top leadership of the Church of the Nazarene. To dangle such a paragraph out there, being a Nazarene and ministering in mostly Nazarene churches, it doesn't make sense to me that his is referring to others. If I made such a post or anyone in active ministry in the CotN, I would expect a phone call!

    Fascinating. I'd say to some degree he is right. How in the world does a/can a denomination move or follow the "Cloud/Fire" freely when we have historically limited our destinations? And, I would say he is fairly well obligated to move wherever the Spirit may lead him or be unfaithful to or against what he is saying.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Regarding Dan's application of scripture, it falls apart as on one hand he says the spirit of religion makes the old wineskins so appealing that we don't want to move on, and then immediately he calls us to return to the days of the early NT church. This is a contradictory phraseology, as one could argue that the early NT church is old wineskins.

    Regarding your point #2, a benefit of not being ordained enables Dan to speak his mind freely. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The ordination issue has been repeated enough in this thread, so I'll leave it there without further discussion.

    At face value I don't think there's any major disagreement with Dan's statement - it's generic enough I think we can all agree with him. However, we likely would disagree on how to apply what he said. Some folks would interpret the bit about the early NT church just in the sense of the spirit moving at Pentecost in Acts 2, though I prefer to look several chapters ahead to the church continuing to exist even in the midst of major disagreements.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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  18. #418
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Interestingly enough (at least to me), I used Acts 2 as the basis for the revival I preached a few weeks ago. I preached on the way of the cross, the way of scripture, the way of fellowship, the way of serving, and the way of prayer. I believe it was those that marked the early church, empowered by the Spirit. But hey, those may not be exciting enough.
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  19. #419
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I would have some agreement with the sentiment of Dan's post, but ......

    Part of my problem is determining where the authority is vested for knowing the 'new times and seasons' God desires for his people.
    I remember times when well meaning people came to me and said, "Pastor, God's been talking to me ....". I always thought to myself, "I hope He's been talking to me about the same thing."
    We all remember things like the 'laughing movement'.
    I have had serious conversations with individuals who believed that if you were filled with the Holy Spirit and in the center of God's will, you would never get sick. Sickness was a sign of spiritual failure.
    I have had conversation with individuals who were told that physical burnout in ministry was a sure sign of spiritual backsliding.
    I remember a radio preacher named Rev. Ike who had a slogan, "The ABSENCE of money is the root of all evil" and "You can't lose what I use." He was popular among some folk.

    I conducted a funeral today and one of the things I sought to share was this: The majesty of the gospel is that it does not require the approval or validation of man.

    I long for the Church to be Spirit filled and relevant to our times, but I tend to shy away from movements that seem to be based on emotional infusion alone. My experience is that such movements are often overbearing and shallow rooted. I sometimes think we need more people "being" and less people "leading".

  20. #420
    Senior Member Greg Crofford's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Do I think there is systemic evil? I do. But I'll admit I'm quite skeptical these days of demon talk as referenced above in # 416. It's just too easy to literally demonize your opponent. It seems like an ad hominem argument for those who don't want to engage in productive debate about the direction we should take.
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  21. #421
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    This was posted on FB by Dan this morning.

    One of the most dangerous rulers of darkness that satan has unleashed is a powerful corporate spirit of religion . It's main assignment is to prevent Gods people from moving into whatever new times and seasons God desires for His church. The spirit of religion is the greatest preserver of the status quo. It devises ways and means to make the old wineskin so appealing that Christian leaders are either oblivious to Gods new wineskin or they know about it and actively oppose it. It causes it's victims to believe that the old is the will of God. This demon over the church does what it can to prevent our minds from being transformed to believe the Word of God . We must battle and destroy whatever principality it is that is keeping the church from walking in the power of the primitive New Testament church again. Holy Spirit help us to cry out to you , and consecrate ourselves to you until your kingdom comes and your will is done on earth as it is in heaven .


    I would be interested in other takes on his thoughts.

    My opinion/s:

    1. To some degree I agree. I have wondered over the years about the "cloud by day & fire by night" moving into areas of life and ministry we have avoided or established our doctrine against something that God may approve and desire. We are pretty obligated to stay with our historic pronouncements and doctrines.

    2. It "seems" quite bold of Dan to say what he said. And, it "seems" to me that he is speaking to and about the top leadership of the Church of the Nazarene. To dangle such a paragraph out there, being a Nazarene and ministering in mostly Nazarene churches, it doesn't make sense to me that his is referring to others. If I made such a post or anyone in active ministry in the CotN, I or they should expect a phone call!

    Fascinating. I'd say to some degree he is right. How in the world does a/can a denomination move or follow the "Cloud/Fire" freely when we have historically limited our destinations? And, I would say he is fairly well obligated to move wherever the Spirit may lead him or be unfaithful to or against what he is saying.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Regarding Dan's application of scripture, it falls apart as on one hand he says the spirit of religion makes the old wineskins so appealing that we don't want to move on, and then immediately he calls us to return to the days of the early NT church. This is a contradictory phraseology, as one could argue that the early NT church is old wineskins.

    Regarding your point #2, a benefit of not being ordained enables Dan to speak his mind freely. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The ordination issue has been repeated enough in this thread, so I'll leave it there without further discussion.

    At face value I don't think there's any major disagreement with Dan's statement - it's generic enough I think we can all agree with him. However, we likely would disagree on how to apply what he said. Some folks would interpret the bit about the early NT church just in the sense of the spirit moving at Pentecost in Acts 2, though I prefer to look several chapters ahead to the church continuing to exist even in the midst of major disagreements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    I would have some agreement with the sentiment of Dan's post, but ......

    Part of my problem is determining where the authority is vested for knowing the 'new times and seasons' God desires for his people.
    I remember times when well meaning people came to me and said, "Pastor, God's been talking to me ....". I always thought to myself, "I hope He's been talking to me about the same thing."
    We all remember things like the 'laughing movement'.
    I have had serious conversations with individuals who believed that if you were filled with the Holy Spirit and in the center of God's will, you would never get sick. Sickness was a sign of spiritual failure.
    I have had conversation with individuals who were told that physical burnout in ministry was a sure sign of spiritual backsliding.
    I remember a radio preacher named Rev. Ike who had a slogan, "The ABSENCE of money is the root of all evil" and "You can't lose what I use." He was popular among some folk.

    I conducted a funeral today and one of the things I sought to share was this: The majesty of the gospel is that it does not require the approval or validation of man.

    I long for the Church to be Spirit filled and relevant to our times, but I tend to shy away from movements that seem to be based on emotional infusion alone. My experience is that such movements are often overbearing and shallow rooted. I sometimes think we need more people "being" and less people "leading".
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Crofford View Post
    Do I think there is systemic evil? I do. But I'll admit I'm quite skeptical these days of demon talk as referenced above in # 416. It's just too easy to literally demonize your opponent. It seems like an ad hominem argument for those who don't want to engage in productive debate about the direction we should take.
    There is so much in each of these posts that bear closer examination and offer insight. So, first of all, thank you to each of you.

    The first thing that came to mind however, when I read the quote Wes cites is this: The basic premise he uses can be construed to apply to just about anything and actually endorse anything, even heresy.

    What if the spirit of satan is what is hovering over the church to cause it to fail to embrace LGBT issues? From the quote, one could just as easily allow for that to be the case, saying we aren't progressive enough and it is the devil keeping us from doing so.

    To answer the question about authority to interpret the times, it is given to the Church. Some may see it more clearly than others, but suggesting a "corporate spirit of religion" is to blame is an overreach. That is another way of saying, if it doesn't agree with ME, it is suspect. That is more often the pathway to heresy or error than not. We've seen that error in the Concerned and Reformed Nazarene cabal as an all-too recent example of this kind of thinking.
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  22. #422
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    I would be interested in other takes on his thoughts.

    My opinion/s:

    1. To some degree I agree. I have wondered over the years about the "cloud by day & fire by night" moving into areas of life and ministry we have avoided or established our doctrine against something that God may approve and desire. We are pretty obligated to stay with our historic pronouncements and doctrines.

    2. It "seems" quite bold of Dan to say what he said. And, it "seems" to me that he is speaking to and about the top leadership of the Church of the Nazarene. To dangle such a paragraph out there, being a Nazarene and ministering in mostly Nazarene churches, it doesn't make sense to me that his is referring to others. If I made such a post or anyone in active ministry in the CotN, I or they should expect a phone call!

    Fascinating. I'd say to some degree he is right. How in the world does a/can a denomination move or follow the "Cloud/Fire" freely when we have historically limited our destinations? And, I would say he is fairly well obligated to move wherever the Spirit may lead him or be unfaithful to or against what he is saying.
    The anti-establishment tone of the New Testament is inescapable. As a result, there will always be someone invoking the New Testament as license to 'stick it to the man.' (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly)

    I smile inwardly when someone says we need to be more like the New Testament Church. It's like describing a 25 year-long marriage based solely on the wedding video. So my question to proponents of the NT Church is which one we are wanting to be like...the one that sold off all of their assets thinking that Jesus was coming right back, the one that fights over racist administration of the food program, the one that insists new members get circumcised, the one that begrudgingly backs off on the circumcision requirement in writing but continues doing so in practice, or the one that incites a mob to lynch its leading missionary and then uses the machinery of the state to get rid of him? Those all seem like really messed up models for today's Church.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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