+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 200 of 562

Thread: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

  1. #101
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    If God can use him, then I do not wish to 'inveigh' on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    What Glenn said, "If God can use him, then I do not wish to 'inveigh' on that."
    I would never want to inveigh against you for not inveighing on Dan and his team for inveighing against the doctrines and usages of the Church of the Nazarene.

    But seriously, I do respect your view and understand that not everything Dan does goes against the doctrines and usages of the Church of the Nazarene. I'm sure there are those that are helped by his meetings, and I recognize many do receive healing, though I would guess, speaking from experience, the numbers are a lot smaller than what they would lead us to believe.

    Then, I am reminded of:
    Philippians 1:15-18 (NIV)
    15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,
    Understanding that we all have come through different life experiences, some are more willing to give Dan a pass, while others, myself included, feel it is important to speak up when they start to see history repeating itself. I have shared in other forums that I have been dealing with this movement in our local Church going all the way back to 2005, way before Dan came on the scene. The overall fruit of this movement is rotten. It may not manifest itself for a while, things may seem to be going well, but be ready, the elitism, the divisiveness, brokenness, and confusion is brewing. Disunity among staff, the body, and families will come. That is why when I came accross this from the BOGS statement, it really hit home, and I share it every chance I get:
    It is strongly felt that by ignoring such practices or even supporting them, we are sowing seeds for the divisiveness that has historically accompanied such activities.
    Thanks for allowing this discussion to happen. I pray for discernment for all reading this thread.
    Thanks Glenn Messer, Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  2. #102
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I think at the heart of this discussion, there is still the issue of accountability. I have met Dan on a few occasions and he strikes me as a nice guy who honestly believes what he is selling. I don't believe he has nefarious motives, but what the basic accountability of ordained ministry is lost, one is free to simply go doctrinally "where ever the Spirit leads". The problem with this is the accountability that I have been talking about helps us to understand where that just ends up being what we want to do and say.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Tim Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  3. #103
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Denison, Texas, United States
    Posts
    2,819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Wesley and Bresee preached the bible. They didnt spend over an hour telling you what happened in the last place they preached, sprinkling it with scripture texts, and creating an expectation that it better happen here, too, or something is wrong.

  4. #104
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Pettigrew View Post
    Wesley and Bresee preached the bible. They didnt spend over an hour telling you what happened in the last place they preached, sprinkling it with scripture texts, and creating an expectation that it better happen here, too, or something is wrong.
    Nailed it.

    Sent from my SM-T537V using Tapatalk

  5. #105
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Pettigrew View Post
    Wesley and Bresee preached the bible. They didnt spend over an hour telling you what happened in the last place they preached, sprinkling it with scripture texts, and creating an expectation that it better happen here, too, or something is wrong.
    Is this your firsthand observation?

    I have not heard Dan speak, I have listened to a sermon online and closely examined an podcast that featured Dan. I get the impression he is genuine and wants to see great things happen. Sometimes in our zeal to see a "great move of God" we manufacture things to reflect our desires. I can see where it would be easy to create a self-manufactured movement that generates excitement and anticipation.

    What is your analysis?

  6. #106
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    Is this your firsthand observation?
    It is mine. That's why I feel David nailed it.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Bruce Barnard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New York, New York, United States
    Posts
    243
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Totally unrelated to tongues or getting slain, my question is along the lines of sanctification - I see repeated claims from those leading this movement (if I can use that phrase) and even the places they are preaching that "the entire congregation got sanctified"...are we to assume that there are Nazarene churches where not one single person, including pastoral staff and volunteers, is sanctified...?...that none are at the very least somewhere "in process"...?...I find that claim to be one worth exploring...
    Thanks Greg Farra - "thanks" for this post

  8. #108
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Groveport,OH
    Posts
    1,689
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    Is this your firsthand observation?

    I have not heard Dan speak, I have listened to a sermon online and closely examined an podcast that featured Dan. I get the impression he is genuine and wants to see great things happen. Sometimes in our zeal to see a "great move of God" we manufacture things to reflect our desires. I can see where it would be easy to create a self-manufactured movement that generates excitement and anticipation.

    What is your analysis?
    I saw Dan a couple of times at Camp meeting. Its been several years, and I really wish I'd taken pen and paper with me. From what I remember, I got the impression he thought addictions and depression are sin. He also had the pastors getting up from their seats several times to pray for various illnesses and situations. I felt like a yo-yo, and thought it was manipulative. Personally, he seems like a nice guy but the techniques remind me of televangelists working a crowd of people hungry for a miracle.
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  9. #109
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Groveport,OH
    Posts
    1,689
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Barnard View Post
    Totally unrelated to tongues or getting slain, my question is along the lines of sanctification - I see repeated claims from those leading this movement (if I can use that phrase) and even the places they are preaching that "the entire congregation got sanctified"...are we to assume that there are Nazarene churches where not one single person, including pastoral staff and volunteers, is sanctified...?...that none are at the very least somewhere "in process"...?...I find that claim to be one worth exploring...
    Bruce, I saw that as well. I'm thinking, what the heck? I'm all for ES as a distinct work, as well as the progressiveness of sanctification, but that seemed a bit strange.
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  10. #110
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    I saw Dan a couple of times at Camp meeting. Its been several years, and I really wish I'd taken pen and paper with me. From what I remember, I got the impression he thought addictions and depression are sin. He also had the pastors getting up from their seats several times to pray for various illnesses and situations. I felt like a yo-yo, and thought it was manipulative. Personally, he seems like a nice guy but the techniques remind me of televangelists working a crowd of people hungry for a miracle.
    This was EXACTLY my experience at the tent meeting in ND. While I don't doubt he had good intentions, it felt very manipulative.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Greg Farra, Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  11. #111
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Barnard View Post
    Totally unrelated to tongues or getting slain, my question is along the lines of sanctification - I see repeated claims from those leading this movement (if I can use that phrase) and even the places they are preaching that "the entire congregation got sanctified"...are we to assume that there are Nazarene churches where not one single person, including pastoral staff and volunteers, is sanctified...?...that none are at the very least somewhere "in process"...?...I find that claim to be one worth exploring...
    I can only assume such evangelists work on commission? $10 for every sanctification?
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Laughing Greg Farra, Kevin Wright, Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

  12. #112
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Barnard View Post
    Totally unrelated to tongues or getting slain, my question is along the lines of sanctification - I see repeated claims from those leading this movement (if I can use that phrase) and even the places they are preaching that "the entire congregation got sanctified"...are we to assume that there are Nazarene churches where not one single person, including pastoral staff and volunteers, is sanctified...?...that none are at the very least somewhere "in process"...?...I find that claim to be one worth exploring...
    One of the times Dan spoke at our local church on a Sunday morning, he made an amazing claim on his facebook page following the service. I was not actually in the service because I was working with the children so I did not directly experience it. His claim was that over 800 people came forward to be totally sanctified. His facebook fans started praising him for this great achievement and he responded by saying that there were actually many more and that 800 was a very conservative estimate.

    What was amazing to me was that there were 800-900 people in my church that were not sanctified.

    The other amazing thing is that there were only 720 in attendance in that Sunday morning service and not everyone went forward. He must not have thought ahead enough to realize that we count attendance on Sunday mornings.

    I pointed out this discrepancy and was pretty much attacked by his facebook fans. This also got me blocked from his page. I guess, they can't handle the truth.
    Thanks Glenn Messer, Rich Schmidt, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  13. #113
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,619
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I pointed out this discrepancy and was pretty much attacked by his facebook fans. This also got me blocked from his page. I guess, they can't handle the truth.
    Do you suppose that Bohi graduated with honors from Trump Bible College?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Laughing Greg Farra, Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

  14. #114
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    I'm taking bets on which happens first, Dan Bohi submitting to denominational accountability or Donald Trump releasing his tax returns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Do you suppose that Bohi graduated with honors from Trump Bible College?
    Who's this Trump guy you keep referin to? Is he another undocumented evangelist?
    Thanks Glenn Messer - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Glenn Messer - thanks for this funny post

  15. #115
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    What was amazing to me was that there were 800-900 people in my church that were not sanctified.
    In my own experience I've found these numbers to be indefensible. They also bring about many questions. For example, can folks be resanctified, bumping up this number? Is the fact that such large numbers were previously not sanctified evidence that the senior pastor is incompetent?

    The only conclusion I can reach is that as many as 900 people had a memorable experience, but the description is at best a well-meaning exaggeration and cannot be verified.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  16. #116
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    One of the times Dan spoke at our local church on a Sunday morning, he made an amazing claim on his facebook page following the service. I was not actually in the service because I was working with the children so I did not directly experience it. His claim was that over 800 people came forward to be totally sanctified. His facebook fans started praising him for this great achievement and he responded by saying that there were actually many more and that 800 was a very conservative estimate.

    What was amazing to me was that there were 800-900 people in my church that were not sanctified.

    The other amazing thing is that there were only 720 in attendance in that Sunday morning service and not everyone went forward. He must not have thought ahead enough to realize that we count attendance on Sunday mornings.

    I pointed out this discrepancy and was pretty much attacked by his facebook fans. This also got me blocked from his page. I guess, they can't handle the truth.
    Assuming your facts are correct (and I have no reason to doubt them) and assuming Dan is telling the truth also, the only logical conclusion is that a large number of folk got sanctified multiple times during that service..................

    I suggest our elders get right on this and explain to we ignorant laity how sanctification can be lost so quickly and what we can do to avoid having that happen to us.

    BILL
    Laughing Kevin Wright - thanks for this funny post

  17. #117
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    One of the times Dan spoke at our local church on a Sunday morning, he made an amazing claim on his facebook page following the service. I was not actually in the service because I was working with the children so I did not directly experience it. His claim was that over 800 people came forward to be totally sanctified. His facebook fans started praising him for this great achievement and he responded by saying that there were actually many more and that 800 was a very conservative estimate.

    What was amazing to me was that there were 800-900 people in my church that were not sanctified.

    The other amazing thing is that there were only 720 in attendance in that Sunday morning service and not everyone went forward. He must not have thought ahead enough to realize that we count attendance on Sunday mornings.

    I pointed out this discrepancy and was pretty much attacked by his facebook fans. This also got me blocked from his page. I guess, they can't handle the truth.
    Alternate facts. There was a different count that you didn't' see.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP

  18. #118
    Site Manager G R 'Scott' Cundiff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere on the road
    Posts
    5,314
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    The answer is no.

    Apparently the controversy isn't over.

    (There, now we can move on.)
    Thanks Glenn Messer - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Glenn Messer - thanks for this funny post

  19. #119
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by G R 'Scott' Cundiff View Post
    The answer is no.

    Apparently the controversy isn't over.

    (There, now we can move on.)
    Apparently the answer is NO, we can't move on

    BILL
    Laughing G R 'Scott' Cundiff, Tim Troxler, John Kennedy - thanks for this funny post

  20. #120
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Victor, MT
    Posts
    4,436
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    . . . what we can do to avoid having that happen to us.

    BILL
    Die.

    Note: I'm not telling you to die. I am answering your question.)
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net
    Laughing Bill Morrison - thanks for this funny post

  21. #121
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I suggest our elders get right on this and explain to we ignorant laity how sanctification can be lost so quickly and what we can do to avoid having that happen to us.

    BILL
    We do not accept the OSASASAS doctrine. (Once Saved And Sanctified, Always Saved And Sanctified)
    Last edited by Kevin Wright; January 31st, 2017 at 05:16 PM.
    Laughing Bill Morrison - thanks for this funny post

  22. #122
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Die.

    Note: I'm not telling you to die. I am answering your question.)
    You are making me think being "slain in the spirit" might mean something different than I supposed it did...................

    BILL
    Laughing Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

  23. #123
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    W Michigan
    Posts
    12,245
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    You are making me think being "slain in the spirit" might mean something different than I supposed it did...................

    BILL
    That "something else" being like Ananias and Sapphira?

    BTW, was a bit surprised that someone didn't mention that numbers discrepancy being related to what we've heard forever as "evangelistically speaking."

    Back to bed now!! zzzzzzzzzzzzz
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. ~ Stella Adler
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    [COLOR=Indigo][FONT=Palatino Linotype]It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life. ~ Susan Lapin ~
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    Laughing John Kennedy, Bill Morrison - thanks for this funny post

  24. #124
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Denison, Texas, United States
    Posts
    2,819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    Is this your firsthand observation?

    I have not heard Dan speak, I have listened to a sermon online and closely examined an podcast that featured Dan. I get the impression he is genuine and wants to see great things happen. Sometimes in our zeal to see a "great move of God" we manufacture things to reflect our desires. I can see where it would be easy to create a self-manufactured movement that generates excitement and anticipation.

    What is your analysis?
    I must admit I have not heard Wesley or Bresee preach first hand.

    Bro. Dan preached on my district regularly, including in my local church for a three day portion of a district tour. I found him to be a great guy and many received spiritual benefit, including myself. His preaching style is as I described in the six or seven times I've heard him. The emotional aspects manifested slightly in my church, but I didn't encourage or feed into that, which may have been perceived as "quenching the spirit".
    Thanks Glenn Messer, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  25. #125
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Torrington Wyoming
    Posts
    1,695
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I try not be a rules guy, but they are still important.

    408. The elder or licensed minister who is an evangelist is one devoted to traveling and preaching the gospel, and who is authorized by the church to promote revivals and to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ abroad in the land. The Church of the Nazarene recognizes three levels of itinerant evangelism to which a district assembly may assign ministers: registered evangelist, commissioned evangelist, and tenured evangelist. An evangelist who dedicates time to evangelism, outside his or her local church as his or her primary assignment and who does not sustain a retired relationship with the church or any of its departments or institutions, shall be an assigned minister.

    How is Dan Bohi not an evangelist working without due license or credentials? How is it that a DS allows such a flagrant abuse of our by-laws. I haven't heard the guy and I won't. I refuse. He is making a mockery of all the evangelists who went through the correct process. This is not the case of a guy filling in for when a pastor is gone, or simply sharing a testimony, or sharing the gospel with a group of people. This is a person who gets paid to preach from our pulpits!!

    His refusal to be held accountable, yells of arrogance, no matter how great a guy he is. No matter how important his message it is diluted, tainted, and voided by his unwillingness to comply with those in authority over him. If he has such an important message and is unable to comply with our structure then he needs to stick with independent churches who have no such requirement.

    Yes, this ticks me off. By the way as I am becoming aware of the District Superintendents who are supporting this, I find them to be unworthy of the position as they refuse to uphold their mandate. Especially since at least one of them so loudly and verbally exclaims how he will keep out the unworthy pastors.

  26. #126
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    I try not be a rules guy, but they are still important.

    408. The elder or licensed minister who is an evangelist is one devoted to traveling and preaching the gospel, and who is authorized by the church to promote revivals and to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ abroad in the land. The Church of the Nazarene recognizes three levels of itinerant evangelism to which a district assembly may assign ministers: registered evangelist, commissioned evangelist, and tenured evangelist. An evangelist who dedicates time to evangelism, outside his or her local church as his or her primary assignment and who does not sustain a retired relationship with the church or any of its departments or institutions, shall be an assigned minister.

    How is Dan Bohi not an evangelist working without due license or credentials? How is it that a DS allows such a flagrant abuse of our by-laws. I haven't heard the guy and I won't. I refuse. He is making a mockery of all the evangelists who went through the correct process. This is not the case of a guy filling in for when a pastor is gone, or simply sharing a testimony, or sharing the gospel with a group of people. This is a person who gets paid to preach from our pulpits!!

    His refusal to be held accountable, yells of arrogance, no matter how great a guy he is. No matter how important his message it is diluted, tainted, and voided by his unwillingness to comply with those in authority over him. If he has such an important message and is unable to comply with our structure then he needs to stick with independent churches who have no such requirement.

    Yes, this ticks me off. By the way as I am becoming aware of the District Superintendents who are supporting this, I find them to be unworthy of the position as they refuse to uphold their mandate. Especially since at least one of them so loudly and verbally exclaims how he will keep out the unworthy pastors.
    You think this is the first time people with influence and position in the CotN threw aside the manual for the sake of people pleasing or getting "results" (or both)? If DS's and GS's actually stuck to the manual we would likely not have as many churches, pastors, and lay people as we do. I'm not wholly convinced this might be such a bad thing anymore.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  27. #127
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,122
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    I try not be a rules guy, but they are still important.

    408. The elder or licensed minister who is an evangelist is one devoted to traveling and preaching the gospel, and who is authorized by the church to promote revivals and to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ abroad in the land. The Church of the Nazarene recognizes three levels of itinerant evangelism to which a district assembly may assign ministers: registered evangelist, commissioned evangelist, and tenured evangelist. An evangelist who dedicates time to evangelism, outside his or her local church as his or her primary assignment and who does not sustain a retired relationship with the church or any of its departments or institutions, shall be an assigned minister.

    How is Dan Bohi not an evangelist working without due license or credentials? How is it that a DS allows such a flagrant abuse of our by-laws. I haven't heard the guy and I won't. I refuse. He is making a mockery of all the evangelists who went through the correct process. This is not the case of a guy filling in for when a pastor is gone, or simply sharing a testimony, or sharing the gospel with a group of people. This is a person who gets paid to preach from our pulpits!!

    His refusal to be held accountable, yells of arrogance, no matter how great a guy he is. No matter how important his message it is diluted, tainted, and voided by his unwillingness to comply with those in authority over him. If he has such an important message and is unable to comply with our structure then he needs to stick with independent churches who have no such requirement.

    Yes, this ticks me off. By the way as I am becoming aware of the District Superintendents who are supporting this, I find them to be unworthy of the position as they refuse to uphold their mandate. Especially since at least one of them so loudly and verbally exclaims how he will keep out the unworthy pastors.
    Aren't we a church that has ordained women since the beginning and yet still have DS's who refuse to support women being in district leadership and senior pastors?
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Mike Schutz, Kevin Timpe - "thanks" for this post

  28. #128
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,619
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    You think this is the first time people with influence and position in the CotN threw aside the manual for the sake of people pleasing or getting "results" (or both)? If DS's and GS's actually stuck to the manual we would likely not have as many churches, pastors, and lay people as we do. I'm not wholly convinced this might be such a bad thing anymore.
    We have seen in recent years that having a BGS buddy or two absolves a person, ministry or business of all questions of accountability. The question I have is whether Bohi will still have a BGS buddy after GA 2017.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  29. #129
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    We have seen in recent years that having a BGS buddy or two absolves a person, ministry or business of all questions of accountability. The question I have is whether Bohi will still have a BGS buddy after GA 2017.
    I expect that there will be two less buddies, unless of course the GA elects some replacement buddies.
    Thanks Billy Cox - "thanks" for this post

  30. #130
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beaumont, CA
    Posts
    9,881
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    We have seen in recent years that having a BGS buddy or two absolves a person, ministry or business of all questions of accountability. The question I have is whether Bohi will still have a BGS buddy after GA 2017.
    Isn't Bohi related, in some way, to a current or former GS?

  31. #131
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Isn't Bohi related, in some way, to a current or former GS?
    We're Nazarenes. Aren't we all related, in some way, to a current or former GS?
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

  32. #132
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Isn't Bohi related, in some way, to a current or former GS?
    His dad was Nazarene SongEvangelist Jim Bohi.

    Incredible voice!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SWNssW-b-nQ

    Bill Gaither was also a Nazarene, not registered as a Song Evangelist. Just sayin?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Laughing Bill Morrison - thanks for this funny post

  33. #133
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Victor, MT
    Posts
    4,436
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Bill Gaither was also a Nazarene, not registered as a Song Evangelist. Just sayin?
    And don't forget Miley Cyrus. Wait. Nevermind.
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net
    Laughing Jim Chabot, Glenn Messer, John Kennedy - thanks for this funny post

  34. #134
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Isn't Bohi related, in some way, to a current or former GS?
    GS Emeritus Don Owens is Dan's father-in-law.

    BILL
    Thanks John Kennedy - "thanks" for this post

  35. #135
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    And don't forget Miley Cyrus. Wait. Nevermind.
    And...................

    Then again, seriously. Bill & Gloria are probably the most influential Nazarene's ever. And I mean like real Nazarene's. Do a google search for his house, and then tell me where the Alexandria First Church is located.

    Point is that Dan isn't pastoring a Church, he is an itinerant independent evangelist. It would be different if we required ordination for evangelists, but we don't. It's kinda like Obamacare, it doesn't work without a mandate. Unless we would require each Nazarene pastor to call a Nazarene evangelist at periodic intervals, then we can't require evangelists to be ordained.

    Dan is accountable to the pastors who call him. They don't have to call him if they don't want to.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  36. #136
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Victor, MT
    Posts
    4,436
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Bill & Gloria are probably the most influential Nazarene's ever. And I mean like real Nazarene's.
    Funny. I thought that Jesus was the most influential Nazarene ever.
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  37. #137
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Funny. I thought that Jesus was the most influential Nazarene ever.
    Nope. He fed 5000 people, but none were sanctified.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Laughing Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

  38. #138
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Funny. I thought that Jesus was the most influential Nazarene ever.
    Oops! My bad!

    You are right, it's even noted in the company song........

    I stand amazed in the presence! (Not joking, this is true.)
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Lucas Finch, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  39. #139
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    And...................

    Then again, seriously. Bill & Gloria are probably the most influential Nazarene's ever. And I mean like real Nazarene's. Do a google search for his house, and then tell me where the Alexandria First Church is located.

    Point is that Dan isn't pastoring a Church, he is an itinerant independent evangelist. It would be different if we required ordination for evangelists, but we don't. It's kinda like Obamacare, it doesn't work without a mandate. Unless we would require each Nazarene pastor to call a Nazarene evangelist at periodic intervals, then we can't require evangelists to be ordained.

    Dan is accountable to the pastors who call him. They don't have to call him if they don't want to.
    I grew up in Muncie 30 minutes down 28 from the Gaithers and 10 minutes for Ray Boltz studio. It may be my only claim to fame
    Last edited by Cam Pence; February 1st, 2017 at 10:14 PM.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Laughing Lucas Finch, Gina Stevenson - thanks for this funny post

  40. #140
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot;
    Point is that Dan isn't pastoring a Church, he is an itinerant independent evangelist. It would be different if we required ordination for evangelists, but we don't... Dan is accountable to the pastors who call him. They don't have to call him if they don't want to.
    We require Evangelists to be accountable to the district not the local pastor. They hold a district credential.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Cam Pence, Mike Schutz - "thanks" for this post

  41. #141
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,635
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Funny. I thought that Jesus was the most influential Nazarene ever.
    Even Jesus never got the whole crowd sanctified.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom
    Laughing Lucas Finch, John Kennedy - thanks for this funny post

  42. #142
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    We require Evangelists to be accountable to the district not the local pastor. They hold a district credential.
    Credentialed evangelists are accountable to the District. However credentials are optional, non credentialed evangelists are accountable to the calling pastor. There are no rules being broken here, this is no different from Manny's complaint of our schools calling non Nazarene's in to speak.

    I do recognize your concern and frustration. Still, if we cannot provide work for an evangelist by requiring that pastors use them, and use them exclusively, then we have no right to require credentials. It used to be that Campmeetings holding membership, as the CoTN did in the Association would have incorporated in their bylaws to call only those credentialed by member denominations. Now that the Association is no more, even the Campmeetings are calling evangelists from outside. I see this as a matter of fairness, if we cannot provide work, then we cannot apply rules. Again, no rules are being broken here.

    Given the choice of calling a credentialed AoG pastor to Campmeetings, or calling Dan. I would prefer Dan. I say this because Smith Mills Campmeeting did call an AoG guy last summer. He was ok, still I would have preferred a Nazarene like Dan, a Wesleyan, Church of God or Salvation Army evangelist.

    Again, frustration aside, no rules are being broken, nor has anyone shown Dan to be outside of our camp.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  43. #143
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,619
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Funny. I thought that Jesus was the most influential Nazarene ever.
    Maybe so, but 1st century Nazarenes wanted to kill him.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  44. #144
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,619
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Even Jesus never got the whole crowd sanctified.
    Maybe if he had a better event management team... We'll never know.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Laughing Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

  45. #145
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Credentialed evangelists are accountable to the District. However credentials are optional, non credentialed evangelists are accountable to the calling pastor. There are no rules being broken here,
    Like I said earlier, he is exploiting a loophole. He's not breaking the letter of the law but flaunting the intent and in a particularly egregious way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    this is no different from Manny's complaint of our schools calling non Nazarene's in to speak.
    Not even close. Institutions of higher learning and local churches or districts are very different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I do recognize your concern and frustration. Still, if we cannot provide work for an evangelist by requiring that pastors use them, and use them exclusively, then we have no right to require credentials.
    Again not even close. The same argument could be made for pastors. We require that churches call credentialed pastors through the denomination and still there are way more people who want to pastor than there are spots. Credentialing has nothing to do with supply and demand, it has to do with authority and who has the power to give it. In our denomination that is the district with the approval of the general church. This is not an issue of fairness. It is an issue of personal and theological integrity and the spiritual life of the preacher who must live under authority. -- Even the Apostles lived under authority and had their theology reviewed by the council at Jerusalem.

    For preachers, those of us that speak for God, submission to authority isn't just a good idea it is a spiritual discipline and ancient practice going back to the Apostle themselves. It is a constant reminder that we are servants of the Body of Christ not the other way around. We are not allowed to run around like lone rangers. Lay people can spout off with all sorts of crazy ideas about God, but not us. We speak for the church, we must be more disciplined.

    Even more disturbing is the question, why won't he submit to authority? If he is in compliance with our theology then he has nothing to worry about. If he is not, then he needs to be honest about that... what is the deal? Is he hiding something? It really is kind of bizarre.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP

  46. #146
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    There are no rules being broken here... Again, no rules are being broken here...Again, frustration aside, no rules are being broken.
    Define rules. Would an official statement from the BOGS be considered a rule? My interpretation from the manual suggests it should be. They are tasked with:
    318. The Board of General Superintendents shall be the authority for interpretation of law and doctrine of the Church of the Nazarene, and meaning and force of provisions of the Manual, subject to an appeal to the General Assembly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Which is in direct rebellion to the stated direction of the Board of General Superintendents statement:
    Therefore, we counsel that people practicing “tongues-speaking”or promoting it in any way should be encouraged and advised to seek membership elsewhere unless they are willing to discontinue their practice and their advocacy. Furthermore, we believe that our people should not participate in services or meetings which encourage the practice of speaking in tongues or schedule in our churches speakers or singers who are known to be active in the so-called charismatic movement.
    Of course, if pastors honored this instruction, they would never turn their pulpit over to Dan either.
    As far as I know this "rule" has not been overridden by a GA. It kind of sounds like an executive order to me. If Trump was a GS we would hear "You are fired" for all the pastors and DSs ignoring this "rule".

    *Edit for clarification: I'm trying to be funny by bringing Trump in, I don't want to see anyone fired.
    Last edited by Kevin Wright; February 2nd, 2017 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Clarification
    Thanks Cam Pence, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  47. #147
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Even Jesus never got the whole crowd sanctified.
    Jesus was only able to multiply loaves and fishes. While Dan is able to multiply people and get them all sanctified. He would call this "even greater things than these".
    Last edited by Kevin Wright; February 2nd, 2017 at 12:07 PM.

  48. #148
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Like I said earlier, he is exploiting a loophole. He's not breaking the letter of the law but flaunting the intent and in a particularly egregious way.


    Not even close. Institutions of higher learning and local churches or districts are very different things.

    Again not even close. The same argument could be made for pastors. We require that churches call credentialed pastors through the denomination and still there are way more people who want to pastor than there are spots. Credentialing has nothing to do with supply and demand, it has to do with authority and who has the power to give it. In our denomination that is the district with the approval of the general church. This is not an issue of fairness. It is an issue of personal and theological integrity and the spiritual life of the preacher who must live under authority. -- Even the Apostles lived under authority and had their theology reviewed by the council at Jerusalem.

    For preachers, those of us that speak for God, submission to authority isn't just a good idea it is a spiritual discipline and ancient practice going back to the Apostle themselves. It is a constant reminder that we are servants of the Body of Christ not the other way around. We are not allowed to run around like lone rangers. Lay people can spout off with all sorts of crazy ideas about God, but not us. We speak for the church, we must be more disciplined.

    Even more disturbing is the question, why won't he submit to authority? If he is in compliance with our theology then he has nothing to worry about. If he is not, then he needs to be honest about that... what is the deal? Is he hiding something? It really is kind of bizarre.
    Forgive me as I'm not parsing your post, I'm away and it's too much work to do on a phone.

    We don't require that our pastors call only credentialed evangelist. Thus it makes little sense for someone to take our credentials which might close other doors to them. The closest corollary would be the case of Bill Gaither, he never sought credentials as a song evangelist.

    You see this as exploiting a loophole, I'm not seeing it. For the Evangelist or Song Evangelist credentials are optional and I dare say less attractive than in the past.

    As to submitting to authority, I suppose I'm not seeing this either. Has anyone in authority asked or stated that he should submit? He is not a Nazarene evangelist, he is an independent evangelist who happens to be Nazarene and he seems to be quite popular with Nazarene pastors, DS's, GS's and congregations.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  49. #149
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Define rules. Would an official statement from the BOGS be considered a rule? My interpretation from the manual suggests it should be. They are tasked with:
    318. The Board of General Superintendents shall be the authority for interpretation of law and doctrine of the Church of the Nazarene, and meaning and force of provisions of the Manual, subject to an appeal to the General Assembly.


    As far as I know this "rule" has not been overridden by a GA. It kind of sounds like an executive order to me. If Trump was a GS we would hear "You are fired" for all the pastors and DSs ignoring this "rule".

    *Edit for clarification: I'm trying to be funny by bringing Trump in, I don't want to see anyone fired.

    This appears to have merit. Should Dan be speaking in tongues or promoting it, then yes it appears actionable.

    Don't worry about Donald Trump or anyone being fired. If nobody can or should get fired, then we shouldn't have rules.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  50. #150
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,742
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    A\
    It is a constant reminder that we are servants of the Body of Christ not the other way around. We are not allowed to run around like lone rangers. Lay people can spout off with all sorts of crazy ideas about God, but not us. We speak for the church, we must be more disciplined.
    This is the money quote.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Glenn Messer, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  51. #151
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Hobart, Indiana, United States
    Posts
    1,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    When I asked the question in the OP, I honestly had no idea all of this is going on. There are a lot of SMH realities in here.

    http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/jtfp.gif
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  52. #152
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    This perfectly describes this movement that Dan and his team are embracing.
    http://www.piratechristian.com/messe...ll-and-be-free

  53. #153
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    South Texas
    Posts
    424
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    This perfectly describes this movement that Dan and his team are embracing.
    http://www.piratechristian.com/messe...ll-and-be-free
    Whatever! This article describes mostly word-of-faith, name-it, claim-it issues. Dan is not, nor has ever been a word-of-faith preacher. The author, who has apparently turned from anything that remotely resembles a Charismatic style of worship (based on digging deeper into the website), has no idea what the NAR is. I'm not saying that I agree with everything that these Pastors say and do. But what baffles me is the witch hunt some of you want to go on with regards to people like Dan or many of the others that may be part of the NAR (Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle, etc.) while at the same time excepting and embracing thoughts that, in my humble opinion, are leading people straight to hell. Thoughts like, there is no actual hell, God changes His mind, monogamous homosexual relationships are not a sin, abortion is completely acceptable in some situations. I could go on and on. It just blows my mind that this thread causes more of an uproar because some people have said their life has been changed because of an experience with the Holy Spirit, while other heretic thoughts have support with little push back because of the belief that you should be able to "think outside of the box" theologically. The only legitimate issue in this entire thread is the one that is raised by Craig. Other than that, I'll take Dan, Bethel, IHOP, and any others that have a deep desire to grow closer to God and have an experience of the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit over a dead, spiritless religion that questions even the sovereignty of God.

  54. #154
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Warr Acres, OK (OKC)
    Posts
    948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    . . . while at the same time excepting and embracing thoughts that, in my humble opinion, are leading people straight to hell. Thoughts like . . . God changes His mind . . . . . . heretic thoughts . . .
    An inconvenient truth, from Scripture:
    Exod 32:14 And the LORD changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.

    Jer 18:8 but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it.

    Jer 18:10 but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

    Jer 26:3 It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings.

    Jer 26:13 Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you.

    Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.
    There are other places not so overt, such as God not following through with his death sentence in Genesis 3, or God regretting he had made Saul king in 1 Sam 15:11.

    The other things mentioned are points of biblical interpretation and personal belief not heresy. Not even close.

    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.

  55. #155
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Whatever! This article describes mostly word-of-faith, name-it, claim-it issues. Dan is not, nor has ever been a word-of-faith preacher. The author, who has apparently turned from anything that remotely resembles a Charismatic style of worship (based on digging deeper into the website), has no idea what the NAR is.
    Everything the author listed, explains exactly what NAR is. If you think Dan is not embracing it all you need to take a look at who endorsed his book. Randy Clark (responsible for the fake revival; the Toronto Blessing, and the fake revival at Wooster Church of the Nazarene in 2005) Add to that his association with the Azusa Now gang you can clearly see where he gets his teaching from and where he is headed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    while at the same time excepting and embracing thoughts that, in my humble opinion, are leading people straight to hell. Thoughts like, there is no actual hell, God changes His mind, monogamous homosexual relationships are not a sin, abortion is completely acceptable in some situations. I could go on and on. It just blows my mind that this thread causes more of an uproar because some people have said their life has been changed because of an experience with the Holy Spirit, while other heretic thoughts have support with little push back because of the belief that you should be able to "think outside of the box" theologically.
    Wrong. Where did you get this idea from? I believe:
    • There is an actual hell.
    • God does not change his mind.
    • a homosexual relationship is sin.
    • abortion is never acceptable.
    • "think outside the box" is a common excuse used by charismatics to justify anything they want that does not line up with the Word.
    • I have never questioned the sovereignty of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    I'll take Dan, Bethel, IHOP, and any others that have a deep desire to grow closer to God and have an experience of the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit over a dead, spiritless religion that questions even the sovereignty of God..
    That is the problem! A dead, spiritless religion is not the opposite of Hyper-Charismatic. You can have a live, spirit filled church without embracing all of the charismatic nonsense.

  56. #156
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Whatever! This article describes mostly word-of-faith, name-it, claim-it issues. Dan is not, nor has ever been a word-of-faith preacher. The author, who has apparently turned from anything that remotely resembles a Charismatic style of worship (based on digging deeper into the website), has no idea what the NAR is. I'm not saying that I agree with everything that these Pastors say and do. But what baffles me is the witch hunt some of you want to go on with regards to people like Dan or many of the others that may be part of the NAR (Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle, etc.) while at the same time excepting and embracing thoughts that, in my humble opinion, are leading people straight to hell. Thoughts like, there is no actual hell, God changes His mind, monogamous homosexual relationships are not a sin, abortion is completely acceptable in some situations. I could go on and on. It just blows my mind that this thread causes more of an uproar because some people have said their life has been changed because of an experience with the Holy Spirit, while other heretic thoughts have support with little push back because of the belief that you should be able to "think outside of the box" theologically. The only legitimate issue in this entire thread is the one that is raised by Craig. Other than that, I'll take Dan, Bethel, IHOP, and any others that have a deep desire to grow closer to God and have an experience of the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit over a dead, spiritless religion that questions even the sovereignty of God.
    And I would suggest you take this advice from the author:
    So here's the bottom line to this article: If you're confused by all the stuff you've been taught, start reading your Bible again, and stop listening to all the people who've been telling you these things. Just take a little time off and see what happens. Here's a truly radical idea: read entire books of the New Testament all of the way through (most of them are really short). If God's Word is actually God's Word, then He will you use it to speak to you. Stop trying to hear God's voice in your constantly changing imagination; the Word of God is unchanging and it's outside of you, and that's a very good thing. Clear out all the false teachings that have cluttered up your mind and discover the simple Gospel message.

    He's given you His Word, now simply read it and be free!

  57. #157
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,332
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Thoughts like, #1there is no actual hell, #2God changes His mind, #3monogamous homosexual relationships are not a sin, #4abortion is completely acceptable in some situations.
    You are a Nazarene, right?
    #1 - the Manual is silent.
    #2 - the Manual is silent, see Dennis' response.
    #3 - the Manual addresses this and the BGS has ruled.
    #4 - the Manual actually does allow for this.

  58. #158
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Groveport,OH
    Posts
    1,689
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Experience the manifest presence of the Spirit? Easy. Go and serve the least of these.

  59. #159
    Regular Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I think that talking about Dan as an independent evangelist is a proper way of talking about him. And I do believe that pastor's in the CotN have the freedom to book him. However, I think in light of what very clearly goes on in his meetings that is clearly talked about in the 2002 BoGS statement our call and push should be for our BoGS to either redefine their statement or make clear that Dan is not in anyway sanctioned by the CotN and in fact is promoting things that we clearly stand against. Therefore they should 1. not use him for any general church activities and should ask our districts to do the same. As an independent evangelist the problem is not that he embraces and teaches openly about things the church has clearly taken a stand against, but that he insist on bringing them to the CotN where it has been made clear it will bring division. 2. Advise pastors of local Nazarene churches not to allow him to speak in their churches until he makes clear that he will not teach things that are clearly seen as divisive for the CotN. This I believe works in our current church government and respects the rights of an independent evangelist and the responsibilities of the leadership of the CotN to address an ongoing area of division among us. One last thought, I find what Dennis Kenlaw had to say about the 1970 revival at Asbury relevant to this conversation, "One remarkable thing, given the youthfulness of the worshippers, was that the marathon service was uncannily orderly. Worshippers did not become loud, did not speak out of turn, did not fall down on the floor, but just prayed and confessed, praised God and gave testimonies of what He had done for them."
    Thanks Jon Bemis, Glenn Messer, Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  60. #160
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    This may be a good move for Dan. I'm wondering if this is Dan trying to be more accountable, maybe an attempt to restore the divisions he has caused in the denomination.

    Or, is it just a PR move to help his business...

    Thanks Greg Farra - "thanks" for this post

  61. #161
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Groveport,OH
    Posts
    1,689
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    This may be a good move for Dan. I'm wondering if this is Dan trying to be more accountable, maybe an attempt to restore the divisions he has caused in the denomination.

    Or, is it just a PR move to help his business...

    It concerns me when someone says that all the misunderstandings are built on lies. Hardly the way to build a bridge. He doesn't make a very good martyr.
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  62. #162
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    This may be a good move for Dan. I'm wondering if this is Dan trying to be more accountable, maybe an attempt to restore the divisions he has caused in the denomination.

    Or, is it just a PR move to help his business...

    Well since he calls us liars I'm guessing he's not trying to be accountable. Rebuilding probably means, persuade them that they don't have authority over me.

    "I'm doing everything in my power to let all of Dan die..." Well, expect embrace Biblical accountability. The one sure sign of death to self.

    Where did this come from? What is the context? I wish I hadn't heard it, it hurts my heart because for the first time, I'm questioning his motives.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Greg Farra, Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  63. #163
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Well since he calls us liars I'm guessing he's not trying to be accountable. Rebuilding probably means, persuade them that they don't have authority over me.

    "I'm doing everything in my power to let all of Dan die..." Well, expect embrace Biblical accountability. The one sure sign of death to self.

    Where did this come from? What is the context? I wish I hadn't heard it, it hurts my heart because for the first time, I'm questioning his motives.
    http://www.fcnhome.com/sermons

    Sent from my SM-T537V using Tapatalk

  64. #164
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Groveport,OH
    Posts
    1,689
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Well since he calls us liars I'm guessing he's not trying to be accountable. Rebuilding probably means, persuade them that they don't have authority over me.

    "I'm doing everything in my power to let all of Dan die..." Well, expect embrace Biblical accountability. The one sure sign of death to self.

    Where did this come from? What is the context? I wish I hadn't heard it, it hurts my heart because for the first time, I'm questioning his motives.
    Craig,

    I think most reasonable people have not questioned his motives up to now. Like you, this makes me consider questioning them.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  65. #165
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Well since he calls us liars I'm guessing he's not trying to be accountable. Rebuilding probably means, persuade them that they don't have authority over me.

    "I'm doing everything in my power to let all of Dan die..." Well, expect embrace Biblical accountability. The one sure sign of death to self.

    Where did this come from? What is the context? I wish I hadn't heard it, it hurts my heart because for the first time, I'm questioning his motives.
    Edit -- It kind of feels like that moment from the Pub House scandle when I heard that the then president had stopped cooperating with the investigation. At that moment I knew the issues were more than innocent ignorance and incompetence but that something bad had happened. This sound bite is chilling. --
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  66. #166
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lake Stevens, WA
    Posts
    5,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    http://www.fcnhome.com/sermons

    Sent from my SM-T537V using Tapatalk
    Jan 15 or 16? I would prefer not to have to listen to a couple of hours to get the context.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

    Strength Finders - Futuristic, Strategic, Self Assurance, Individualization, Ideation
    Meyer's Brigs - ENTP

  67. #167
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Jan 15 or 16? I would prefer not to have to listen to a couple of hours to get the context.
    16th, around the 58 minute mark.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  68. #168
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    This may be a good move for Dan. I'm wondering if this is Dan trying to be more accountable, maybe an attempt to restore the divisions he has caused in the denomination.

    Or, is it just a PR move to help his business...

    All based on lies? You mean what other people observe is all lies? Then you get emotional and start boo hooing? Come on, this is exactly why we have accountability measures. I'm just going to say it, using your emotions in a statement like this is nothing but a sympathy getting tactic. It's manipulative (whether intentional or not). You want all of Dan to die? We all want that. But all of us doesn't die, we are still human and we need each other.
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Billy Cox, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

  69. #169
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Well since he calls us liars I'm guessing he's not trying to be accountable. Rebuilding probably means, persuade them that they don't have authority over me.

    "I'm doing everything in my power to let all of Dan die..." Well, expect embrace Biblical accountability. The one sure sign of death to self.

    Where did this come from? What is the context? I wish I hadn't heard it, it hurts my heart because for the first time, I'm questioning his motives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    All based on lies? You mean what other people observe is all lies? Then you get emotional and start boo hooing? Come on, this is exactly why we have accountability measures. I'm just going to say it, using your emotions in a statement like this is nothing but a sympathy getting tactic. It's manipulative (whether intentional or not). You want all of Dan to die? We all want that. But all of us doesn't die, we are still human and we need each other.
    I have been pretty critical of Dan's teaching so I have to assume he is including me as one of the liars. I am very fact oriented. That is why I share the official statements from the BOGS and contrast Dans' own words against the position of the denomination. I have reached out to Dan and the BOGS, with no resolution other than being told that a member of the Board had a talk with Dan. A lot of good that did.

    Here is another great example that someone shared with me. This video contains 4 clips (3.5 minutes) that was shared at an Assemblies of God church. In it he makes fun of Nazarenes, supports "slaying in the spirit" (although he thinks it's weird), shares how he is doing greater things than Jesus (and he loves when people send him money for it), and acknowledges having a prayer language. The entire message is available here:
    http://www.kneo.org/mp3/FromThePulpi...PlaceOfGod.mp3
    Here are the clips:

  70. #170
    Senior Member Jon Bemis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Flintstone GA
    Posts
    1,624
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    It would appear that I too would be counted among the liars. A few years ago I heard him speak during 3 sessions at a district pastor's retreat and was shocked at some of the things he said and and his manipulation of people's emotions. During that time he made claims such as "“Salvation is just adoption, it is when we are sanctified we become heirs," and that those who didn't respond to his message were being dishonest with themselves and God. I left with the impression he was firmly in the Word of Faith/Signs Following camps. I was surprised and saddened to learn he has support from so many in our denomination. Here is a link to a critique of some of his teachings and claims. The current edition of Holiness Today has a good article that IMO describes this kind of methodology and the results it produces.
    Loving God . . . Loving others.
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Greg Farra, Bill Evans - "thanks" for this post

  71. #171
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    This may be a good move for Dan. I'm wondering if this is Dan trying to be more accountable, maybe an attempt to restore the divisions he has caused in the denomination.

    Or, is it just a PR move to help his business...

    Once again having a pastor buddy is not anywhere near the appropriate accountability of ordination for those called to preach in the CotN. Sorry.....it's just not. FWIW, I am sure he is sincere and sees this as a good step and, to be fair, it is A step. Just not far enough.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

  72. #172
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Once again having a pastor buddy is not anywhere near the appropriate accountability of ordination for those called to preach in the CotN. Sorry.....it's just not. FWIW, I am sure he is sincere and sees this as a good step and, to be fair, it is A step. Just not far enough.
    I'm starting to think I may have an idea who his new hire could be. I'm sure anyone he hires would be in complete agreement with his theology. The new hire may just know how to work the system better.

  73. #173
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Once again having a pastor buddy is not anywhere near the appropriate accountability of ordination for those called to preach in the CotN. Sorry.....it's just not. FWIW, I am sure he is sincere and sees this as a good step and, to be fair, it is A step. Just not far enough.
    Question from a layman:

    Is the accountability of ordination perfect? Are not District Boards to some degree in danger of being "pastor buddies" who might not always hold their friends in ministry accountable?
    (I know that sounds harsh, and do understand my own father was a member of such boards for years in Ohio, Wyoming, Colorado, and Louisiana. I know of some of the great and frequent work they do to keep elders accountable. But I also believe there are times "friends" get protection when they ought not to by ministerial buddies. The same is true of police, doctors, or probably any other group of professionals.)

    One of our NazNet brothers mentioned several days ago on one of the Dan Bohi-related threads that he knows (hopefully a very few!) Nazarene pastors that drink and/or smoke.
    When things like that are allowed to happen in the church, a layman like myself wonders why a non-ordained person like Dan is such a target and considered to be a bad person because e.g. he has a "prayer language" or conducts services in ways that some find distasteful. IMO a prayer language is violating the BOGS admonitions about Nazarenes avoiding charismatic practices, but how does that even compare to ordained elders lying to their congregations by drinking and smoking without turning in their credentials as they have promised to do when they are ordained? Or how much damage are some Nazarene elders doing to the church when they make it clear to their more "fundamentalist-leaning" members that they are really second class citizens in the COTN?

    I see the likes of Dan Bohi causing far less damage to the cause of Christ or the denomination that what is being done when/if elders are allowed to violate the Manual in various ways. And even though I find his services/practices to be uncomfortable personally, I can't discount the testimonies of so many that have received help at his meetings. I certainly don't question his sincerity as some seem wont to do.

    BILL
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  74. #174
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Question from a layman:

    Is the accountability of ordination perfect? Are not District Boards to some degree in danger of being "pastor buddies" who might not always hold their friends in ministry accountable?
    (I know that sounds harsh, and do understand my own father was a member of such boards for years in Ohio, Wyoming, Colorado, and Louisiana. I know of some of the great and frequent work they do to keep elders accountable. But I also believe there are times "friends" get protection when they ought not to by ministerial buddies. The same is true of police, doctors, or probably any other group of professionals.)

    One of our NazNet brothers mentioned several days ago on one of the Dan Bohi-related threads that he knows (hopefully a very few!) Nazarene pastors that drink and/or smoke.
    When things like that are allowed to happen in the church, a layman like myself wonders why a non-ordained person like Dan is such a target and considered to be a bad person because e.g. he has a "prayer language" or conducts services in ways that some find distasteful. IMO a prayer language is violating the BOGS admonitions about Nazarenes avoiding charismatic practices, but how does that even compare to ordained elders lying to their congregations by drinking and smoking without turning in their credentials as they have promised to do when they are ordained? Or how much damage are some Nazarene elders doing to the church when they make it clear to their more "fundamentalist-leaning" members that they are really second class citizens in the COTN?

    I see the likes of Dan Bohi causing far less damage to the cause of Christ or the denomination that what is being done when/if elders are allowed to violate the Manual in various ways. And even though I find his services/practices to be uncomfortable personally, I can't discount the testimonies of so many that have received help at his meetings. I certainly don't question his sincerity as some seem wont to do.

    BILL
    Of course its not perfect. I don't know that there is a perfect system of accountability. It is, however, the standard of accountability for most faith traditions for those who wish to be preachers of the Gospel. To a large extent, all our talk of pastoral accountability is moot point when the fact is that many churches are "results" driven so for a lot of laity, so what if he strays from some of the doctrine that I (for example) am held to as long as people flood the altars. I have a feeling that, even if Dan came right out and said he wasn't on board with the CotN's doctrine in terms of sensationalism and that the reason that he doesn't want to pursue ordination is because he wants freedom to go outside of Nazarene doctrine and polity, many in our denomination would still not care. He floods the altars. Let him preach what he wants. I, as well, don't doubt his sincerity and when I met him he seemed like a nice and caring guy. Still, a doctrinal mindset that only cares about "results" and not faithfulness to the witness of ones chosen faith tradition, is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst. I am not naive and I know that short of Dan deciding to pursue appropriate accountability, not one else in our denomination will require it of him. And, frankly, if he doesn't want to, why in the world would he when he can simply write off people with concerns like me as liars and be met with "Amens!"? For many people, results talk. Sound doctrine and theological faithfulness don't.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Greg Farra, Bill Morrison, Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  75. #175
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Groveport,OH
    Posts
    1,689
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I still find his comment about the misunderstands being built on lies less than sincere. Hardly a good way to build bridges back into the denomination.
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  76. #176
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Of course its not perfect. I don't know that there is a perfect system of accountability. It is, however, the standard of accountability for most faith traditions for those who wish to be preachers of the Gospel. To a large extent, all our talk of pastoral accountability is moot point when the fact is that many churches are "results" driven so for a lot of laity, so what if he strays from some of the doctrine that I (for example) am held to as long as people flood the altars. I have a feeling that, even if Dan came right out and said he wasn't on board with the CotN's doctrine in terms of sensationalism and that the reason that he doesn't want to pursue ordination is because he wants freedom to go outside of Nazarene doctrine and polity, many in our denomination would still not care. He floods the altars. Let him preach what he wants. I, as well, don't doubt his sincerity and when I met him. He seemed like a nice and caring guy. Still, a doctrinal mindset that only cares about "results" and not faithfulness to the witness of ones chosen faith tradition, is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst. I am not naive and I know that short of Dan deciding to pursue appropriate accountability, not one else in our denomination will require it of him. And, frankly, if he doesn't want to, why in the world would he when he can simply right off people with concerns like me as liars and be met with "Amens!"? For many people, results talk. Sound doctrine and theological faithfulness don't.
    Cam:
    I think I understand (at least in part) the pain of the Nazarene elders participating in this thread.

    I'm going through a similar thing (but just observing and not participating) in another current NazNet thread (on ENC's current challenges).
    As an educator, I am appalled at the idea extensive use of adjuncts are ideal for the Nazarene (or any) education system, or that we can just conduct classes over the Internet and everything will be fine, etc. I'm glad my retirement from Nazarene Higher Ed is imminent.

    The Bohi situation raises interesting and complex questions. And unfortunately, just as in politics, good Nazarenes are going to view him from very different vantage points. Can God only call people to speak in churches who have gone through a specified course of study and the ritual of ordination (which as I suggested doesn't always do a good job of policing itself)? What is the role of a layman in the COTN upon whom God has lit a fire? Are elders (including the Manual-violating ones) the only voices lay people should listen to? To be blunt, that sounds a little too Catholic for my taste

    But we do have a problem. Even if one is a Dan Bohi supporter, one should be able to easily envision another person rising up in the COTN purporting to have a special message from God who does NOT.........

    Maybe this is a good time for the elders to figure out a plan to allow/disallow the voice of the Dan Bohi's of the future in the COTN?
    Isn't that the job of the ordained...to protect we laity?
    Do we have no mechanism in place now that IF Dan is inveighing against Nazarene doctrine that elders can file charges and silence him?
    Why are none of the concerned doing so?
    Please don't ask/expect laity to do it.......we are NOT the power in Nazarene government structure! I have the impression that when laymen question things, they are generally just seen as trouble-makers to silence ASAP (my apologies to any who might think they are reading a post from Billy Cox.......same town, different guy!)

    BILL
    Thanks Cam Pence, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  77. #177
    Senior Member Jon Bemis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Flintstone GA
    Posts
    1,624
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I see the likes of Dan Bohi causing far less damage to the cause of Christ or the denomination that what is being done when/if elders are allowed to violate the Manual in various ways. And even though I find his services/practices to be uncomfortable personally, I can't discount the testimonies of so many that have received help at his meetings. I certainly don't question his sincerity as some seem wont to do.

    BILL
    I respectfully disagree. While neither are good for our denomination, the theology that Dan represents as well as his fantastical claims (which I have heard in person) are, IMO, a radical departure from orthodox faith and too closely align with some infamous personalities from the past and present. Results alone are not a reliable measure of authenticity. If Dan really wants to have a legitimate ministry in the COTN I personally believe he needs to adhere to and be accountable to the ordination process of our church and align himself with our beliefs. One of the serious problems I've run into in our denomination is too often we have allowed folk theology to be endorsed and spread by "evangelists" who feel they have special a special anointing or unique revelation from God.
    Loving God . . . Loving others.
    Thanks Bill Morrison, Greg Farra, Billy Cox, Peggy Gray - "thanks" for this post

  78. #178
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Cam:
    I think I understand (at least in part) the pain of the elders participating in this thread.

    I'm going through a similar thing (but just observing and not participating) in another current NazNet thread (on ENC's current challenges).
    As an educator, I am appalled at the idea extensive use of adjuncts are ideal for the Nazarene (or any) education system, or that we can just conduct classes over the Internet and everything will be fine, etc.

    The Bohi situation raises interesting and complex questions. And unfortunately, just as in politics, good Nazarenes are going to view him from very different vantage points. Can God only call people to speak in churches who have gone through a specified course of study and the ritual of ordination (which as I suggested doesn't do a good job at times of policing itself)? What is the role of a layman in the COTN upon whom God has lit a fire? Are elders (including the Manual-violating ones) the only voices lay people should listen to? To be blunt, that sounds a little too Catholic for my taste

    But we do have a problem. Even if one is a Dan Bohi supporter, one should be able to easily envision another person rising up in the COTN purporting to have a special message from God who does NOT.........

    Maybe this is a good time for the elders to figure out a plan to allow/disallow the voice of the Dan Bohi's of the future in the COTN?
    Isn't that the job of the ordained...to protect we laity?
    Do we have no mechanism in place now that IF Dan is inveighing against Nazarene doctrine that elders can file charges and silence him.
    (Please don't ask/expect laity to do so.......we are NOT the power in Nazarene government structure!)

    BILL
    We do have a mechanism in place. It's the manual. But honestly, if the BoGS and many DS's don't care, then its, once again, moot point. When the right people get really mad or really happy and pocket books open or close, the manual is just a little black book. If that were not true, Dan Bohi would be held accountable by the denomination in a tangible way. Thomas Oord would still be teaching full time at NNU. Richard Colling would still be teaching at ONU. The list goes on.....

    The manual is fine and dandy as a guideline. But when it messes with the BOTTOM line ($, butts in the pews, tears on the altar), its just as expendable as a pastor who won't get on board and stop gumming up the works. I think you underestimate the power the laity really has, Bill. I am an associate pastor in northern Indiana. I serve and love a youth group of about 20-25 kids and families. I've never "healed" anyone of any maladies, preached a sermon that packed the altars, and certainly no one has ever accused me of being to charismatic. I am in my 9th year of full time pastoral ministry. Before my current assignment, I served as a lead pastor at a church in Carrollton, MO and before that as an Associate Pastor in Minot, ND. Almost all of my formal theological education (B.S. and M.Div) have come from Nazarene institutions (Olivet and NTS). I have been tested and held accountable through the holding of local and district licenses and judged fit to be ordained an elder by the Northeast Indiana Church of the Nazarene. I am infinitely more expendable than Dan Bohi. Know why? I'll give you a hint. Its not my fellow clergy.......
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Bill Morrison, Jon Bemis, Greg Farra - "thanks" for this post

  79. #179
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bemis View Post
    I respectfully disagree. While neither are good for our denomination, the theology that Dan represents as well as his fantastical claims (which I have heard in person) are, IMO, a radical departure from orthodox faith and too closely align with some infamous personalities from the past and present. Results alone are not a reliable measure of authenticity. If Dan really wants to have a legitimate ministry in the COTN I personally believe he needs to adhere to and be accountable to the ordination process of our church and align himself with our beliefs. One of the serious problems I've run into in our denomination is too often we have allowed folk theology to be endorsed and spread by "evangelists" who feel they have special a special anointing or unique revelation from God.
    So....as I ask in Post #176:
    Why are our elders not taking action on this?
    Do we not have a mechanism to do so?
    If not, why don't our leaders create one for future issues like this?

    In partial answer to my own questions: I strongly suspect there are leaders in the COTN who DON'T see Dan doing the things he is being accused of by some.
    Seems to me we would ALL be better off, be we anti-Dan, pro-Dan, or suspended judgment folk, to see where truth lies.
    But then I am just a powerless layman watching the two trains on the same track racing towards each other.

    BILL

  80. #180
    Senior Member Jon Bemis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Flintstone GA
    Posts
    1,624
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    So....as I ask in Post #176:
    Why are our elders not taking action on this?
    Do we not have a mechanism to do so?
    If not, why don't our leaders create one for future issues like this?

    In partial answer to my own questions: I strongly suspect there are leaders in the COTN who DON'T see Dan doing the things he is being accused of by some.
    Seems to me we would ALL be better off, be we anti-Dan, pro-Dan, or suspended judgment folk, to see where truth lies.
    But then I am just a powerless layman watching the two trains on the same track racing towards each other.

    BILL
    I may off base here, but I don't feel I have any more power than anyone else - layperson or otherwise. DB has support at high levels in our organization - as has been pointed out, probably because he lines the altars and many testify to being touched by his ministry.
    Loving God . . . Loving others.
    Thanks Cam Pence, Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  81. #181
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Cam:
    I think I understand (at least in part) the pain of the Nazarene elders participating in this thread.

    I'm going through a similar thing (but just observing and not participating) in another current NazNet thread (on ENC's current challenges).
    As an educator, I am appalled at the idea extensive use of adjuncts are ideal for the Nazarene (or any) education system, or that we can just conduct classes over the Internet and everything will be fine, etc. I'm glad my retirement from Nazarene Higher Ed is imminent.

    The Bohi situation raises interesting and complex questions. And unfortunately, just as in politics, good Nazarenes are going to view him from very different vantage points. Can God only call people to speak in churches who have gone through a specified course of study and the ritual of ordination (which as I suggested doesn't always do a good job of policing itself)? What is the role of a layman in the COTN upon whom God has lit a fire? Are elders (including the Manual-violating ones) the only voices lay people should listen to? To be blunt, that sounds a little too Catholic for my taste

    But we do have a problem. Even if one is a Dan Bohi supporter, one should be able to easily envision another person rising up in the COTN purporting to have a special message from God who does NOT.........

    Maybe this is a good time for the elders to figure out a plan to allow/disallow the voice of the Dan Bohi's of the future in the COTN?
    Isn't that the job of the ordained...to protect we laity?
    Do we have no mechanism in place now that IF Dan is inveighing against Nazarene doctrine that elders can file charges and silence him?
    Why are none of the concerned doing so?
    Please don't ask/expect laity to do it.......we are NOT the power in Nazarene government structure! I have the impression that when laymen question things, they are generally just seen as trouble-makers to silence ASAP (my apologies to any who might think they are reading a post from Billy Cox.......same town, different guy!)

    BILL
    Bill let me simplify:
    You have power. Tons more than me or any other pastor does. Pastors can either go with or against the bottom line. Laity DEFINES the bottom line. In a largely consumerist culture including and ESPECIALLY within the Church, we are well past the point where this should be, somehow, surprising.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Jon Bemis, Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  82. #182
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Victor, MT
    Posts
    4,436
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    You have power.
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net
    Laughing Cam Pence, Bill Morrison, Billy Cox, Rich Schmidt - thanks for this funny post

  83. #183
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    We do have a mechanism in place. It's the manual. But honestly, if the BoGS and many DS's don't care, then its, once again, moot point. When the right people get mad or really happy and pocket books open or close, the manual is just a little black book. If that were not true, Dan Bohi would be held accountable by the denomination in a tangible way. Thomas Oord would still be teaching full time at NNU. Richard Colling would still be teaching at ONU. The list goes on.....
    IF you are correct (and I am leaning strongly towards the fact you are), this is a horrible indictment of the COTN.
    It suggests that the rules of politics, economics, and power are no different in the church than they are in the world.
    I think our Lord would weep to the extent that is true.

    I still feel the power of the clergy is immense. Neither Dr. Oord or Dr. Colling would have lost their jobs if a few clergy on the respective Board of Trustees had stood up for them. Neither would Chaplain Beckum here at MNU.

    I assume Boards at all Nazarene schools are similar to ours at MNU: 1/2 clergy, and the 1/2 laypersons are those the clergy wishes to serve with them, certainly not anyone known to question church polity or be a "trouble-maker"! I imagine you would point out the clergy on these Boards likely did what they did out of fear of what the lay constituents might do with their pocketbooks....but is that any way to run an asylum (let alone a Christian institution)?

    I understand how you feel as a pastor (I grew up in a parsonage). But do try to see the other side. If a layman is not in favor with a pastor, they won't serve on a Board, teach a Sunday School class, or even be an usher/greeter. And what could such a layperson do? Go to the DS who would most likely take the pastor's side from the start? Clergy wield immense power over a congregation. I'm thankful most of them are Christ-loving great servants as you are. I've certainly been privileged to be led by tremendous shepherds in the few churches where I have held membership.

    BILL
    Thanks David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  84. #184
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    If this post was directed at me, I want to be honest and report that I don't look quite that good in my shorts.

    BILL
    Laughing Lucas Finch, Dale Schaeffer, Rich Schmidt, Gina Stevenson - thanks for this funny post

  85. #185
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,742
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Question from a layman:

    Is the accountability of ordination perfect? Are not District Boards to some degree in danger of being "pastor buddies" who might not always hold their friends in ministry accountable?
    (I know that sounds harsh, and do understand my own father was a member of such boards for years in Ohio, Wyoming, Colorado, and Louisiana. I know of some of the great and frequent work they do to keep elders accountable. But I also believe there are times "friends" get protection when they ought not to by ministerial buddies. The same is true of police, doctors, or probably any other group of professionals.)

    One of our NazNet brothers mentioned several days ago on one of the Dan Bohi-related threads that he knows (hopefully a very few!) Nazarene pastors that drink and/or smoke.
    When things like that are allowed to happen in the church, a layman like myself wonders why a non-ordained person like Dan is such a target and considered to be a bad person because e.g. he has a "prayer language" or conducts services in ways that some find distasteful. IMO a prayer language is violating the BOGS admonitions about Nazarenes avoiding charismatic practices, but how does that even compare to ordained elders lying to their congregations by drinking and smoking without turning in their credentials as they have promised to do when they are ordained? Or how much damage are some Nazarene elders doing to the church when they make it clear to their more "fundamentalist-leaning" members that they are really second class citizens in the COTN?

    I see the likes of Dan Bohi causing far less damage to the cause of Christ or the denomination that what is being done when/if elders are allowed to violate the Manual in various ways. And even though I find his services/practices to be uncomfortable personally, I can't discount the testimonies of so many that have received help at his meetings. I certainly don't question his sincerity as some seem wont to do.

    BILL
    Bill, you are making a leap here, and it is leading to a false conclusion. I chair the Board of Ministerial Studies, and this year we had to revoke credentials. Now, there was the claim that someone knew Nazarene pastors who drink/smoke. I have no idea how accurate this claim is, or the present role of the elder(s) described. There is one other part of this that I don't think you considered. There might be a pastor who drinks a glass of wine in the evening to help him sleep. Maybe his friend knows, but this knowledge is not known outside of a few people. How is a district board to act? Now if this person is publicly proclaiming his actions, and encouraging others to follow - then it is something that would probably be addressed. Just because someone knows x, does not mean x is public knowledge.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Bill Morrison, Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

  86. #186
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas
    Posts
    3,117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Bill, you are making a leap here, and it is leading to a false conclusion. I chair the Board of Ministerial Studies, and this year we had to revoke credentials. Now, there was the claim that someone knew Nazarene pastors who drink/smoke. I have no idea how accurate this claim is, or the present role of the elder(s) described. There is one other part of this that I don't think you considered. There might be a pastor who drinks a glass of wine in the evening to help him sleep. Maybe his friend knows, but this knowledge is not known outside of a few people. How is a district board to act? Now if this person is publicly proclaiming his actions, and encouraging others to follow - then it is something that would probably be addressed. Just because someone knows x, does not mean x is public knowledge.
    Thank you, your points are well stated.

    I don't want to be guilty of wholesale disparagement of any of our District Boards. As I stated, my own Dad served for decades on those Boards. I know he was especially challenged when he served on the Colorado District and had to examine numerous Bible College graduates, many who were older and some who had been called to the ministry out of sinful lives with unfortunate baggage they still carried with them.

    My main concern, evidently not stated with abundant clarity (hey, I'm a professor, give me a break) was that ordained clergy can sometimes violate the Manual and get away with it (particular examples not appropriate to share here). I am glad that usually, as you suggest, our accountability system works. However a layman like Dan is excited about waking up some sleeping church members and have them experience the power God makes available to His children and is not demonstrably doing anything wrong. He is being severely criticized for doing things that are NOT against the Manual and/or if he IS inveighing against the Manual, no one seems willing to make formal charges or take any action against him. Why will our system not work to control laypersons? Every Nazarene church Dan speaks at (probably) has an ordained (or working towards it) pastor. If these pastors are wrong in allowing a man to speak against Nazarene doctrine to their congregations, why don't District Boards/leaders take action? Could it be that Dan is not guilty of what he is charged with? Or are our leaders standing idly by and not protecting us as they should? Regardless of what others seem to feel, I as a layman know I have no power in this matter. The clergy, especially those in leadership positions, ought to have the ability to do something if it needs to be done..

    BILL

  87. #187
    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albany, OR
    Posts
    793
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    So....as I ask in Post #176:
    Why are our elders not taking action on this?
    Do we not have a mechanism to do so?
    If not, why don't our leaders create one for future issues like this?

    In partial answer to my own questions: I strongly suspect there are leaders in the COTN who DON'T see Dan doing the things he is being accused of by some.
    Seems to me we would ALL be better off, be we anti-Dan, pro-Dan, or suspended judgment folk, to see where truth lies.
    But then I am just a powerless layman watching the two trains on the same track racing towards each other.

    BILL
    Everyone needs to read the 600 section of the Manual. It is clear that the reason the Elders do not do anything about these kinds of things is that they are not allowed to. If anyone were to seek a change in this situation, it would need to be reported to the pastor of the person's local church who is required to respond with the involvement of the local church board. (Manual 601.1&2). Elders do not have "standing" over laypersons who are not a member of their own church. This would not preclude, I think, anyone "reporting" activities that raise concern to the local church pastor.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  88. #188
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,742
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Thank you, your points are well stated.

    I don't want to be guilty of wholesale disparagement of any of our District Boards. As I stated, my own Dad served for decades on those Boards. I know he was especially challenged when he served on the Colorado District and had to examine numerous Bible College graduates, many who were older and some who had been called to the ministry out of sinful lives with unfortunate baggage they still carried with them.

    My main concern, evidently not stated with abundant clarity (hey, I'm a professor, give me a break) was that ordained clergy can sometimes violate the Manual and get away with it (particular examples not appropriate to share here). I am glad that usually, as you suggest, our accountability system works. However a layman like Dan is excited about waking up some sleeping church members and have them experience the power God makes available to His children and is not demonstrably doing anything wrong. He is being severely criticized for doing things that are NOT against the Manual and/or if he IS inveighing against the Manual, no one seems willing to make formal charges or take any action against him. Why will our system not work to control laypersons? Every Nazarene church Dan speaks at (probably) has an ordained (or working towards it) pastor. If these pastors are wrong in allowing a man to speak against Nazarene doctrine to their congregations, why don't District Boards/leaders take action? Could it be that Dan is not guilty of what he is charged with? Or are our leaders standing idly by and not protecting us as they should? Regardless of what others seem to feel, I as a layman know I have no power in this matter. The clergy, especially those in leadership positions, ought to have the ability to do something if it needs to be done..

    BILL
    Too complicated. The issue is not that pastors who allow Dan to speak need to be addressed - the issue is Dan. He is out in the open. He is acting outside of our polity. That is the issue. It saddens me that pastors have been taken in. It saddens me that DSes are a part of this as well. It angers me that GSes have also been a part. When we start to say we have this process, but if you know the secret handshake, then there is a different route for you. However, for the factory worker who is doing the Course of Study on his/her own, you don't get the secret handshake. That is a problem.

    There is another problem as well. We seem to communicate another message. There is a process, but if you are getting "results" then nothing applies to you. That is an insane route, and will always lead to destruction. That opens the door for wild claims, and an ever-increasing emphasis to get more spectacular results.

    One other thing. As a denomination, we take a very low route in our educational expectations for our pastors. We also have a loose and district-by-district approach to our theological expectation. If we are going to censure pastors who express poor theology, or even heretical theology, or allow speakers who sometimes utter this, then we will have a limited number of pastors left. Between our quasi-Reformed expressions, or our Charismatic leanings, not many would be left.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Tim Troxler, Kevin Wright, Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  89. #189
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    South Texas
    Posts
    424
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Here is another great example that someone shared with me. This video contains 4 clips (3.5 minutes) that was shared at an Assemblies of God church. In it he makes fun of Nazarenes, supports "slaying in the spirit" (although he thinks it's weird), shares how he is doing greater things than Jesus (and he loves when people send him money for it), and acknowledges having a prayer language.
    Talk about taking something out of context?? I guess you and I are listening to different clips.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  90. #190
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Bill, you are making a leap here, and it is leading to a false conclusion. I chair the Board of Ministerial Studies, and this year we had to revoke credentials. Now, there was the claim that someone knew Nazarene pastors who drink/smoke. I have no idea how accurate this claim is, or the present role of the elder(s) described. There is one other part of this that I don't think you considered. There might be a pastor who drinks a glass of wine in the evening to help him sleep. Maybe his friend knows, but this knowledge is not known outside of a few people. How is a district board to act? Now if this person is publicly proclaiming his actions, and encouraging others to follow - then it is something that would probably be addressed. Just because someone knows x, does not mean x is public knowledge.
    The leap that Bill makes sense in the context of naznet. We have heard these claims many times here, it seems that each time we discuss where some feel that the Manual needs changing, it is stated that it is going on already and we need to change to keep up with the times. Here's the thing for me, it may be similar to what Bill if feeling, I don't know. Many times we have heard claims that folks, clergy included, are willfully acting outside of our moral polity, some on issues that are essential as they bear directly upon the question of salvation itself. This is defended quite strongly by some, not all, and I do want to be careful of not painting with a broad brush. And then comes along Dan, who seems to be operating on the fringes of our polity and theology, not clearly outside. And I will admit to a bit of prejudice here, I'm from the wave the hankie and run the isles campmeeting Nazarenes, I don't see Dan as being a whole lot different than many evangelist I've heard and loved through the years.

    I guess what I'm saying is that naznet seems like a very odd place to hear Dan criticized.

    I do understand some of the hue and cry over ordination, I hold licenses in a bunch of trades and I'll admit that I favor licensing, I'm not in favor of allowing folks to work on their own homes. But it is allowed and I'm not going to get apoplectic about it. I see this as the same thing, an unlicensed guy, doing work sometimes (church pastor) requires a license, yet in his situation he is not required to hold one. I get this. I also get that there are many folks in the trades which I am licensed who are very talented yet do not hold licenses, they must work for someone with a license, no problem for me there.

    Bottom line is that Dan is an unlicensed independent evangelist, he is well within his rights to be invited by folks who do have a license to speak in their Churches.

    Again, we all have prejudices and I understand those who are ticked off about Dan, but that's all it is, it is dislike. Admittedly my prejudices run in a different direction, I think we have much bigger fish to fry, I don't see Dan as a problem.

    Also, and I'm not trying to get nit picky here Doug. How exactly is Dan operating outside our polity? Other than the licensing thing, I think it's been established that he ordination is not required.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  91. #191
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Talk about taking something out of context?? I guess you and I are listening to different clips.
    I didn't listen to the whole thing, so I can't comment on context. But I didn't hear what Kevin was saying he heard. I thought that the "Kerosene" line was quite funny, I might even use it sometime. He didn't say that he was doing greater things than Jesus, he didn't take attribution. Jesus did say that greater things were yet to come, no? Of course he loves it when people send him money, I'll bet the pastors love it when their people pay them a decent wage too, as they should! I didn't see support for slaying in the Spirit, nor did I see where he gave attribution to God for people falling down, he did say it is weird. I think it's weird too, but I can't see a difference between someone falling down, and someone running the aisles or shouting out, both of which are common Nazarene practices. He did acknowledge having a private prayer language, that's about it.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  92. #192
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I'm not in favor of allowing folks to work on their own homes. But it is allowed and I'm not going to get apoplectic about it.
    I get apoplectic about this. Living in a parsonage that isn't properly grounded has something to do with that. I actually take the same issue with the previous work done on our house as I do with unlicensed speakers. Churches in practice give tacit endorsement to unlicensed folks across the board. Perhaps it is a money issue or perhaps it's because the person is "a nice guy." At the end of the day though doing things haphazardly is a recipe for disaster.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Eric Frey, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  93. #193
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,192
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    I get apoplectic about this. Living in a parsonage that isn't properly grounded has something to do with that. I actually take the same issue with the previous work done on our house as I do with unlicensed speakers. Churches in practice give tacit endorsement to unlicensed folks across the board. Perhaps it is a money issue or perhaps it's because the person is "a nice guy." At the end of the day though doing things haphazardly is a recipe for disaster.
    I get this, and the thought that Church folks would do this to their pastor disturbs me. Our Church has done some of this in the past, thankfully we now have an engineer on our Board who is vigilant about getting code and insurance compliance issues addressed. We have recently completed renovations on an apartment for our new Associate, it has been completed using licensed firms and getting proper permits.

    I say licensed firms, because the requirement is that a licensed electrician be on the job, each licensed man is allowed to have one unlicensed man under him. This is actually what happens when someone calls Dan, he works under their license, surely a licensed pastor is capable of handling one person working under their license. This is something that we have long allowed, we have had many unlicensed speakers at our Church for revival, nothing wrong with this. I could see the argument for requiring a license, but only if we also required our pastors to only allow licensed speakers, and only if we required them to call a licensed evangelist once a year. Not one of their fellow pastors, as has also been done, call a licensed evangelist. Just my opinion of course, but given that Dan is not required to hold a license, opinion is what we are dealing with here.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Tim Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  94. #194
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I say licensed firms, because the requirement is that a licensed electrician be on the job, each licensed man is allowed to have one unlicensed man under him. This is actually what happens when someone calls Dan, he works under their license, surely a licensed pastor is capable of handling one person working under their license. This is something that we have long allowed, we have had many unlicensed speakers at our Church for revival, nothing wrong with this. I could see the argument for requiring a license, but only if we also required our pastors to only allow licensed speakers, and only if we required them to call a licensed evangelist once a year. Not one of their fellow pastors, as has also been done, call a licensed evangelist. Just my opinion of course, but given that Dan is not required to hold a license, opinion is what we are dealing with here.
    This is an excellent point, and speaks to why there are no general rules to prevent unlicensed folk from speaking. The question for me, though, is why him, and not somebody else? I alluded to this in post 36 when I pointed out there are others available to preach.

    To use another example, I have a close friend who is a staunch Calvinist. He's a great speaker. He's very well versed in his faith tradition, and is able to engage in ours. He has spoken several times in a Nazarene church as a lay preacher. I would gladly hear him preach anywhere else - but he's got no business preaching from a Nazarene pulpit. He's realized this on his own, and has moved on to another church. Where I imagine you and I will agree to disagree is that I don't believe Bohi's message belongs in a Nazarene church. I don't doubt his sincerity or his being a Christian; I just acknowledge that his message doesn't fit in our tradition. But, there are obviously many who disagree with me, and they invite him to speak in Nazarene churches.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

  95. #195
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Talk about taking something out of context?? I guess you and I are listening to different clips.
    Please explain how I took anything out of context. To make that claim without anything to back it up just shows how unwilling you are to hear anything critical of your man. I know most do not want to listen to hours of his teaching so I pulled some clips to highlight his theology but also included the source so no one can claim it was out of context. Yet there you are. Please, show me, I am open to correction .

    Sent from my SM-T537V using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Kevin Wright; February 13th, 2017 at 08:41 AM.

  96. #196
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Jesus did say that greater things were yet to come, no?
    Talk about context.
    https://www.gotquestions.org/greater-works.html

    The charismatic movement is all about elevating man's power while diminishing God's. It often quotes this verse out of context in order to make it sound biblical.

  97. #197
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,742
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post

    Bottom line is that Dan is an unlicensed independent evangelist, he is well within his rights to be invited by folks who do have a license to speak in their Churches.
    No, he's not. It is very simple. Our church has stated there is a path to follow to be an evangelist, and he refuses to follow it. He is not an evangelist. That is a simple statement of fact. He calls himself an evangelist, but that does not make it so. He can call himself a teapot as well. His self-labeling is simply that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Also, and I'm not trying to get nit picky here Doug. How exactly is Dan operating outside our polity? Other than the licensing thing, I think it's been established that he ordination is not required.
    Asked and answered within your own post. I don't want to get nit picky Mrs. Lincoln, but other than the bullet, how did you like the play?
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Benjamin Hobbs, Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  98. #198
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    335
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Also, and I'm not trying to get nit picky here Doug. How exactly is Dan operating outside our polity? Other than the licensing thing, I think it's been established that he ordination is not required.
    You may get tired of me quoting the BOGS but let me share again:

    Furthermore, we believe that our people should not participate in services or meetings which encourage the practice of speaking in tongues or schedule in our churches speakers or singers who are known to be active in the so-called charismatic movement.


    Sent from my SM-T537V using Tapatalk

  99. #199
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    3,015
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Something that I don't think has been brought up in the discussion yet is the fact that this isn't really a "clergy vs. laity" thing. Many DS's and ordained pastors LOVE Dan Bohi. I have served under two DS's (both people I love and respect) who took Dan on district tours. We have many pastors and DS's who look at Article IV and see no difference between us and the fundamental Baptist church down the road or who look at our manual on origins and see only room for six day creationism (MAYBE old earth creationism but they'll pray for you), and many of these pastors I have heard long for the days of "hankey wavers" and "isle runners" lament "cold, heartless, ritualism", and Dan brings that in spades. I can't help but feel there is a bit of the old "Wesleyan vs. American Holiness" friction as work here as well.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Tim Troxler, Jim Chabot, Billy Cox, Greg Farra, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

  100. #200
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bemis View Post
    It would appear that I too would be counted among the liars. A few years ago I heard him speak during 3 sessions at a district pastor's retreat and was shocked at some of the things he said and and his manipulation of people's emotions. During that time he made claims such as "“Salvation is just adoption, it is when we are sanctified we become heirs," and that those who didn't respond to his message were being dishonest with themselves and God. I left with the impression he was firmly in the Word of Faith/Signs Following camps. I was surprised and saddened to learn he has support from so many in our denomination. Here is a link to a critique of some of his teachings and claims. The current edition of Holiness Today has a good article that IMO describes this kind of methodology and the results it produces.
    The most dangerous part is "hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge" presumably occasions where God gives a preacher inside information regarding the human condition. Hearing directly from God when others are not is a form of religious esotericism. It leaves everyone else in the dark and gives a preacher an unusual sense of power to do and say extraordinary things. This is why it is hard to listen to these clips even though they are out of context. The pattern of "hearing from God" for the purpose of influence is deeply embedded in the charismatic movement and is one of its most dangerous characteristics. If I hear directly from God, I do not have to be held to account and I can condition people to respond in a certain way by the power of suggestion. It's an age old tactic. We should be smart enough to figure it out and call Bohi what he is: A Charlatan.
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts