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Thread: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

  1. #201
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    The most dangerous part is "hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge" presumably occasions where God gives a preacher inside information regarding the human condition. Hearing directly from God when others are not is a form of religious esotericism. It leaves everyone else in the dark and gives a preacher an unusual sense of power to do and say extraordinary things. This is why it is hard to listen to these clips even though they are out of context. The pattern of "hearing from God" for the purpose of influence is deeply embedded in the charismatic movement and is one of its most dangerous characteristics. If I hear directly from God, I do not have to be held to account and I can condition people to respond in a certain way by the power of suggestion. It's an age old tactic. We should be smart enough to figure it out and call Bohi what he is: A Charlatan.
    Is the Apostle Paul a liar?

    "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.?"

    Some of these require ""hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge"" unless of course you don't believe these gifts exist today.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Please explain how I took anything out of context. To make that claim without anything to back it up just shows how unwilling you are to hear anything critical of your man. I know most do not want to listen to hours of his teaching so I pulled some clips to highlight his theology but also included the source so no one can claim it was out of context. Yet there you are. Please, show me, I am open to correction .
    First, he's not "my man." Second, I should have backed it up when I posted but it was late and I was tired. Jim C's post #191 pretty much said it for me (although i did not even hear him say that HE had a prayer language, he only acknowledged that they believed it - and of course they do...it was an AOG church) (but I am going to go back and listen again).

    He certainly was not "making fun" of Nazarene's. In the full length clip, it was in his introduction and explanation of who he was to a church unfamiliar with him. I, like Jim C, found the line kind of funny. Especially when I can relate as a Charismatic Nazarene myself.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  3. #203
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    Everyone needs to read the 600 section of the Manual. It is clear that the reason the Elders do not do anything about these kinds of things is that they are not allowed to. If anyone were to seek a change in this situation, it would need to be reported to the pastor of the person's local church who is required to respond with the involvement of the local church board. (Manual 601.1&2). Elders do not have "standing" over laypersons who are not a member of their own church. This would not preclude, I think, anyone "reporting" activities that raise concern to the local church pastor.
    This is consistent with the advice I received from a member of the BOGS. The proper way to address concerns with Dan that fits within the structure of the denomination is to take my concerns to his Pastor. The only standing Dan has within the COtN is a local membership. While I understand the intentions behind this instruction, my concerns go way beyond a local church concern. This direction may apply if Dan was a rogue Sunday School teacher using unapproved material. In reality Dan is going out as a Nazarene evangelist. He is not representing Olathe College Church of the Nazarene. My question is; even if his Pastor addressed these concerns, the worse case scenario for Dan would be that he could loose his local church membership? Would this stop Dan from doing what he is doing?

  4. #204
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    To be fair to Dan Bohi, the CotN is pretty easy, at times, to make fun of
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Is the Apostle Paul a liar?

    "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.?"

    Some of these require ""hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge"" unless of course you don't believe these gifts exist today.
    I love it when we quote Scripture, so let's do it in a full manner. This is 1 Cor. 12, and Paul is writing these words to the church in Corinth. You see, in Corinth there were a group of believers who held themselves in higher regard than their fellow believers. They thought they had certain "spiritual gifts" that others did not have. They had "inside" knowledge, and heard "inside" info directly from God. SOund familiar? It should. Now go back and read the chapter again, and let it sink in. Look at how many times Paul writes, "one Spirit" and "one body." You write as if Paul is highlighting these gifts or works. Paul is writing about acting as part of the "one body" under the direction of "one Spirit." Then let your eye wander down to the last sentence. After dealing with all of these people who claim these various gifts, Paul ends by saying, "now let me show you the most excellent way." Whatever Paul has been dealing with in chap. 12 he does not consider it to be admirable or excellent. So what does Paul consider excellent? "Love is patient, love is kind......"

    It is hard to miss his plain meaning here. When we act outside of the body, when we fail to be one, we are not acting in the excellent or admirable manner that we should be. In fact, we disrupt the one body that the one Spirit seeks to create. Now talk to me about Dan acting independently again.....
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  6. #206
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    I don't want to get nit picky Mrs. Lincoln, but other than the bullet, how did you like the play?
    Too soon!
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    Laughing Jim Chabot, Rich Schmidt - thanks for this funny post

  7. #207
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Is the Apostle Paul a liar?

    "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.?"

    Some of these require ""hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge"" unless of course you don't believe these gifts exist today.
    I recently read this about the Charismatic practices concerning Words of Knowledge, I'll just leave it here:
    We know one thing for sure: these gifts are given by the Spirit to build up (edify) the body of Christ, for the “common good” (1 Corinthians 12:7). The havoc that so often ensues in churches that practice the word of knowledge and word of wisdom as revelatory gifts clearly is not for the common good. Confusing, nebulous, and sometimes contradictory “words from the Lord” do not come from God, for He is not a God of confusion or disorder (1 Corinthians 14:33). Nor do they tend to bring Christians together for their edification; on the contrary, they tend to cause division and strife in the body. Often the word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom gifts are used to gain power and influence over other people, to make others dependent on the one who claims to possess those gifts. This misuse of the two gifts is clearly not of God.

  8. #208
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    No, he's not. It is very simple. Our church has stated there is a path to follow to be an evangelist, and he refuses to follow it. He is not an evangelist. That is a simple statement of fact. He calls himself an evangelist, but that does not make it so. He can call himself a teapot as well. His self-labeling is simply that.
    I realize that this might be picking nits, but yes he is indeed an evangelist, otherwise there wouldn't be any discussion. What he is not is a licensed Nazarene Evangelist.

    I've brought up a similar situation, that of Bill Gaither. If my memory serves, we have an identical process for the licensed Song Evangelist. Bill and Gloria Gaither have been the most prolific, highest profile and the most influential song evangelists of possibly all time, they were Nazarene and they sang in plenty of Nazarene Churches. They chose not to license with us, not limiting their ministry to us alone. There are no differences between the Gaither's and the current situation with Dan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Asked and answered within your own post. I don't want to get nit picky Mrs. Lincoln, but other than the bullet, how did you like the play?
    One of my favorite jokes! Love it!! Maybe I'm a little slow on the take Doug, but could you show me where I've asked and answered this, I am honestly missing something.

    The way I'm seeing this is that there is nothing in our Manual to prohibit Dan from doing what he is doing. This is a technical thing, if he is in violation of the Manual, then it needs to be shown. I don't see anything in the Manual that prevents a Nazarene from going out on his own to speak, nor anything that would preclude Nazarene Churches from calling him. Yeah, I do see the giant elephant whereby those who do chose to license get nothing in return other than a reduced area of ministry. It appears to me that our polity makes it advantageous to work outside of our license in this area of ministry, I include the Song Evangelist in this as well. I believe that what is needed to sate those who are upset over this is a Manual change. Currently I believe that there is no violation, I am however open to someone showing what I might be missing.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  9. #209
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I've brought up a similar situation, that of Bill Gaither. If my memory serves, we have an identical process for the licensed Song Evangelist. Bill and Gloria Gaither have been the most prolific, highest profile and the most influential song evangelists of possibly all time, they were Nazarene and they sang in plenty of Nazarene Churches. They chose not to license with us, not limiting their ministry to us alone. There are no differences between the Gaither's and the current situation with Dan.
    I don't know where I've been but the first time you posted about the Gaithers was the first time I had ever heard that they were Nazarene. I never heard the Nazarene brand associated with them. In contrast to Dan where Nazarene seems to be his middle name.

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I don't know where I've been but the first time you posted about the Gaithers was the first time I had ever heard that they were Nazarene. I never heard the Nazarene brand associated with them. In contrast to Dan where Nazarene seems to be his middle name.

    The CotN is the usually denomination for people WHILE THEY ARE BECOMING famous.......before they eventually find a nice Southern Baptist church
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Something that I don't think has been brought up in the discussion yet is the fact that this isn't really a "clergy vs. laity" thing. Many DS's and ordained pastors LOVE Dan Bohi. I have served under two DS's (both people I love and respect) who took Dan on district tours. We have many pastors and DS's who look at Article IV and see no difference between us and the fundamental Baptist church down the road or who look at our manual on origins and see only room for six day creationism (MAYBE old earth creationism but they'll pray for you), and many of these pastors I have heard long for the days of "hankey wavers" and "isle runners" lament "cold, heartless, ritualism", and Dan brings that in spades. I can't help but feel there is a bit of the old "Wesleyan vs. American Holiness" friction as work here as well.
    I think we have a winner!! I have a word of knowledge that tells me your prize may have already arrived in the mail!

    We are one of those Churches, I have been known to stop between songs to allow and encourage someone who is overcome and shouting out praise. Our people regularly speak up during messages, our services can become very interactive at times, I love it! I don't know if we would invite Dan, but I don't think we would have a problem should he come.

    Over the years I've gotten the feeling that some here feel quite uncomfortable with these sort of Nazarenes, I've heard quite a bit of criticism of our licensed evangelists over the years as well. Which brings me to Solomon cutting the baby in half. No problem, change the Manual to require that only licensed evangelists, come in to hold revival services, and then require that one be called each year, no pastor buddies, it has to be a licensed evangelist. Who wants the baby now?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    I love it when we quote Scripture, so let's do it in a full manner. This is 1 Cor. 12, and Paul is writing these words to the church in Corinth. You see, in Corinth there were a group of believers who held themselves in higher regard than their fellow believers. They thought they had certain "spiritual gifts" that others did not have. They had "inside" knowledge, and heard "inside" info directly from God. SOund familiar? It should. Now go back and read the chapter again, and let it sink in. Look at how many times Paul writes, "one Spirit" and "one body." You write as if Paul is highlighting these gifts or works. Paul is writing about acting as part of the "one body" under the direction of "one Spirit." Then let your eye wander down to the last sentence. After dealing with all of these people who claim these various gifts, Paul ends by saying, "now let me show you the most excellent way." Whatever Paul has been dealing with in chap. 12 he does not consider it to be admirable or excellent. So what does Paul consider excellent? "Love is patient, love is kind......"

    It is hard to miss his plain meaning here. When we act outside of the body, when we fail to be one, we are not acting in the excellent or admirable manner that we should be. In fact, we disrupt the one body that the one Spirit seeks to create. Now talk to me about Dan acting independently again.....
    Doug, I completely understand the full context of this chapter and chapter 13 and chapter 14. The point was in response to Bob and in all of these chapters, Paul does not say that these gifts do not exist. In fact he acknowledges that they do. He was discussing abuses, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that God still gives these gifts as he says -"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."

    Or, how about when he follows up his beautiful teaching on love, he says - "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy."(14:1)

    or

    "But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    As you know, he says much more. But further on in his letter - "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged."

    It never sounds to me as if Paul is denying the gift of prophecy or revelation. That was my point to Bob.


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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I recently read this about the Charismatic practices concerning Words of Knowledge, I'll just leave it here:
    We know one thing for sure: these gifts are given by the Spirit to build up (edify) the body of Christ, for the “common good” (1 Corinthians 12:7). The havoc that so often ensues in churches that practice the word of knowledge and word of wisdom as revelatory gifts clearly is not for the common good. Confusing, nebulous, and sometimes contradictory “words from the Lord” do not come from God, for He is not a God of confusion or disorder (1 Corinthians 14:33). Nor do they tend to bring Christians together for their edification; on the contrary, they tend to cause division and strife in the body. Often the word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom gifts are used to gain power and influence over other people, to make others dependent on the one who claims to possess those gifts. This misuse of the two gifts is clearly not of God.
    Kevin - this is one thing that we can definitely agree on! I know that there are abuses that go on within the Charismatic movement. I have seen them myself. But honestly, I don't see those abuses any differently than I see the abuse of many that deny that the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit work in these same ways today.

    So, while the words posted that you recently read are completely true, they still can not deny the existence of "words of knowledge."
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

  14. #214
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I don't know where I've been but the first time you posted about the Gaithers was the first time I had ever heard that they were Nazarene. I never heard the Nazarene brand associated with them. In contrast to Dan where Nazarene seems to be his middle name.
    They were careful to never call themselves Nazarene, it was/is a well known fact among Nazarene Song Evangelists, many of which Bill is still in close contact with. Bill and Gloria have been close friends of the Speers, I believe that Ben is still Bill's music director. Don't know if they are still there, but the Speers were faithful members of Nashville First for many years. I don't believe that they are licensed either.

    Do a google search with the words Gaither and Nazarene, you will find plenty. Bill's dad was a member of the Church of God Anderson, where Bill and Gloria now hang their hats.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post

    I've brought up a similar situation, that of Bill Gaither. If my memory serves, we have an identical process for the licensed Song Evangelist. Bill and Gloria Gaither have been the most prolific, highest profile and the most influential song evangelists of possibly all time, they were Nazarene and they sang in plenty of Nazarene Churches. They chose not to license with us, not limiting their ministry to us alone. There are no differences between the Gaither's and the current situation with Dan.
    Yes, there is, and it is YUGE! (quoting our president here) The issue is not that Dan speaks. Even though this issue has never been what I have raised, you seem to only see this one thing. The issue is his claims of accountability that are not what the church has established as accountability. Furthermore, the damaging support leaders in our church have given him, even though he clearly stands outside of our polity - which is our agreed and voted on process. There is also a big difference between people who come and sing, and people who stand in the pulpit and speak for the church, and for God. Such a heavy burden requires accountability. If you wish to dodge accountability, I want it known that you do not represent the church, or speak for the church in any way, shape, or form. That delineation has been missing.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    One of my favorite jokes! Love it!! Maybe I'm a little slow on the take Doug, but could you show me where I've asked and answered this, I am honestly missing something.
    You said "outside of the licensing thing", which I took to obviously mean, outside of our accountability structure. This is the whole issue. He purposefully avoids accountability. That is the issue. You asked and answered.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  16. #216
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I think we have a winner!! I have a word of knowledge that tells me your prize may have already arrived in the mail!

    We are one of those Churches, I have been known to stop between songs to allow and encourage someone who is overcome and shouting out praise. Our people regularly speak up during messages, our services can become very interactive at times, I love it! I don't know if we would invite Dan, but I don't think we would have a problem should he come.

    Over the years I've gotten the feeling that some here feel quite uncomfortable with these sort of Nazarenes, I've heard quite a bit of criticism of our licensed evangelists over the years as well. Which brings me to Solomon cutting the baby in half. No problem, change the Manual to require that only licensed evangelists, come in to hold revival services, and then require that one be called each year, no pastor buddies, it has to be a licensed evangelist. Who wants the baby now?
    Sure and I would wager that there are many churches like yours, Jim. Mine is probably to a lesser extent. There are also many that aren't. I feel like, ultimately, (not to sound like a defeatist) that despite all our discussion here and the merit present in our concerns, while helpful,nothing will really change with regards to Dan Bohi. Those who love him will defend him to the death no matter what. The guy has a killer trifecta going on of knowing the right people (a HUGE advantage in our denomination, perhaps in any), claiming special revelation (its much easier to get it from one dude than the Church) and (probably most importantly) he stimulates the bottom line and gets results. I don't think the manual or anything else is ever even gonna be a blip on the radar as long as that colossal trio is in play. You know....maybe I AM a defeatist
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  17. #217
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Which brings me to Solomon cutting the baby in half.
    So you're in favor of infanticide now? Is there no end to your depravity?
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

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    Laughing Rich Schmidt, Bud Pugh - thanks for this funny post

  18. #218
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    The CotN is the usually denomination for people WHILE THEY ARE BECOMING famous.......before they eventually find a nice Southern Baptist church
    Ouch! Sad but true, unfortunately for us, the SBC is willing to appreciate and pay these folks. I have a friend who is a long time Nazarene Song Evangelist (licensed!) He is the son of a Nazarene pastor and his heart is with us. His eldest son is a phenominal musician and started out with us as well. Appreciation and pay came from the SBC and he is now the creative director for lifeway worship and serves as the music pastor at a nearby SBC church. We could have kept him if we had appreciated him.

    While I doubt that Dan will end up with the SBC. He could well end up with the AoG if we fail to appreciate him. Yes I do understand that he might need a bit of help to direct himself closer to where we are at. Still, all we will do with criticism is to drive him to where he might be better appreciated. Funny that one of the criticisms levelled is that some folks are overlooking criticism because the guy is really good at his job. Yeas I know that no one has said that he is good at his job, but references to "results" is close enough?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  19. #219
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    So you're in favor of infanticide now? Is there no end to your depravity?
    Look pal, if Doug can kill Lincoln, why can't I cut a baby in half?

    Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk! Spread out!

    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Laughing Lucas Finch, John Kennedy, Bud Pugh - thanks for this funny post

  20. #220
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Yes, there is, and it is YUGE! (quoting our president here) The issue is not that Dan speaks. Even though this issue has never been what I have raised, you seem to only see this one thing. The issue is his claims of accountability that are not what the church has established as accountability. Furthermore, the damaging support leaders in our church have given him, even though he clearly stands outside of our polity - which is our agreed and voted on process. There is also a big difference between people who come and sing, and people who stand in the pulpit and speak for the church, and for God. Such a heavy burden requires accountability. If you wish to dodge accountability, I want it known that you do not represent the church, or speak for the church in any way, shape, or form. That delineation has been missing.
    I he is claiming accountability, then yes he isn't being entirely truthful. I'll agree that we do offer an accountability program and he is not participating. I agree that this delineation should be desired, I don't see an enforceable vehicle though.

    I don't agree with your differentiation between singers and preachers. Maybe because I take it pretty seriously, I first joined naznet as a means toward being sure that I don't speak or sing against our positions and theology. I'm also responsible for anyone who comes and sings at our Church, and yes my pastor takes this quite seriously. Singers don't just sing, they speak as well. Years ago while singing at our sister Church in the same city, their pastors wife said to me, "I appreciate it that you are careful in what you say between songs, you realize that our people often remember more of what the music people say that what my husband says." She was right, and she reinforced my desire to be careful and faithful, I get to preach for two minutes on any given Sunday, it's easier to remember what is said in two minutes as oppose to what is said in twenty or thirty. Accountability is every bit as important for the singers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    You said "outside of the licensing thing", which I took to obviously mean, outside of our accountability structure. This is the whole issue. He purposefully avoids accountability. That is the issue. You asked and answered.
    Yes, I get this. It's also his right to do so. Not necessarily saying that this is a good thing, I recognize the concern.

    BTW, not just the President, the entire State of Rhode island pronounces it YUGE! We pronounce it correctly over here, since there is no "R" in it for us to leave out.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  21. #221
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    he stimulates the bottom line and gets results
    In my experience, this charismatic/word-of-faith/signs-and-wonders movement is unsustainable. Eventually people realize that all the so called prophesies have not come to pass, that all the claimed healings did not last, (Dan can not get rid of sickness this side of heaven, no matter how much he declares it). I have seen so many people walk away discouraged, feeling they did not have enough faith. The claims that jails would be emptied, hospitals would close, etc, etc, have done more harm to the Kingdom.

    The same way the housing market crash destroyed his first business because it was built on a faulty foundation, this movement will also crash. The only way to keep it going is to continue to reach out to new blood that has not been exposed to it. Eventually people will catch on. My local church experienced this crash. It is slowly recovering but only by distancing itself from this movement Dan is a part of.
    Thanks Cam Pence, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  22. #222
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    In my experience, this charismatic/word-of-faith/signs-and-wonders movement is unsustainable. Eventually people realize that all the so called prophesies have not come to pass, that all the claimed healings did not last, (Dan can not get rid of sickness this side of heaven, no matter how much he declares it). I have seen so many people walk away discouraged, feeling they did not have enough faith. The claims that jails would be emptied, hospitals would close, etc, etc, have done more harm to the Kingdom.

    The same way the housing market crash destroyed his first business because it was built on a faulty foundation, this movement will also crash. The only way to keep it going is to continue to reach out to new blood that has not been exposed to it. Eventually people will catch on. My local church experienced this crash. It is slowly recovering but only by distancing itself from this movement Dan is a part of.
    Well, sure and I am inclined to agree, however, there is a reason that charismatic churches are on the rise. There is a pay off in the way of emotional high. I had a friend who was way into Pentecostalism. He asked me once, "Cam, when you get to heaven are you going to want to walk slowly or saunter through the gates? Me, I wanna get shot through with a cannon." I almost thought he was kidding at first. I tried to explain to him the many, many.......many theological discrepancies with such a question, but all he kept saying was "I wanna get shot through a cannon.". Emotional high. It feels great, even if the healing doesn't ever actually come (and I'm not saying it NEVER does, if not the kind of healing we are hoping for). Biology is persuasive, my friend. I have hope in the words of Derek Webb :

    "Love is only perceived in chemicals and emotion.
    But love, love is the island that overgrows the ocean."

    We don't want pain. We don't want suffering. We certainly don't want silence.

    We want a "fix all" experience and we'll buy from whoever (good intentioned or not) is selling it.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Kevin Wright, John Kennedy, Greg Farra - "thanks" for this post

  23. #223
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Doug, I completely understand the full context of this chapter and chapter 13 and chapter 14. The point was in response to Bob and in all of these chapters, Paul does not say that these gifts do not exist. In fact he acknowledges that they do. He was discussing abuses, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that God still gives these gifts as he says -"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."

    Or, how about when he follows up his beautiful teaching on love, he says - "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy."(14:1)

    or

    "But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    As you know, he says much more. But further on in his letter - "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged."

    It never sounds to me as if Paul is denying the gift of prophecy or revelation. That was my point to Bob.

    No, but I guarantee you Paul would walk away shaking his head at what Dan considers to be prophecy.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Greg Farra - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    No, but I guarantee you Paul would walk away shaking his head at what Dan considers to be prophecy.
    Maybe so. But you nor I really know. The point of this sub-conversation within the OP was when Bob said - "The most dangerous part is "hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge" presumably occasions where God gives a preacher inside information regarding the human condition."...... and my point was that this does in fact still happen today and is scriptural.

  25. #225
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Maybe so. But you nor I really know. The point of this sub-conversation within the OP was when Bob said - "The most dangerous part is "hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge" presumably occasions where God gives a preacher inside information regarding the human condition."...... and my point was that this does in fact still happen today and is scriptural.
    Well, if you think this, then you do not understand at all what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthinas. The church collectively speaks, not lone rangers.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Cam Pence, Kevin Wright, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Interesting that this testimony came accross my facebook news feed this morning. This has been my experience and describes the same movement Dan is a part of.
    http://bereanresearch.org/leaving-th...ch-toms-story/
    Thanks John Kennedy - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Well, if you think this, then you do not understand at all what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthinas. The church collectively speaks, not lone rangers.
    Really? Well then, I suppose we also have to deny that some are called to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, (Eph 4:11). If this is such the case, there is no need for ordination. After all, the church "speaks collectively", right?

    Sorry...I guess I just read it differently. I am an ordained elder because I believe that is the station in life that God has called me to. He has gifted me to be a Pastor. He HAS NOT gifted everyone in my congregation to be a Pastor which I guess in your thought process makes me a "lone ranger.". In the Church of the Nazarene, we believe in the gifting of the Pastor. We believe in the gifting of the Evangelist. We believe in the gifting of the teacher. These are NOT the same. Guess what, there is also the gifting of the Apostle, and the gifting of the Prophet.

    These are not "lone rangers" as you call them, but all gifted in different ways for one purpose....THE KINGDOM! One body, many parts.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  28. #228
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    It's been a while since I engaged with this topic. But I feel like I'm coming to some sort of resolution in my thinking:

    If Dan is an independent (not licensed by the CotN) evangelist, that's fine. He's free to do that. And Nazarene churches and pastors are free to call him to speak at their churches or events, just like they're free to bring in anyone else from outside our tradition. Of course, this carries with it certain expectations:

    1. We expect that the person will not "inveigh against" our theology and practice... though of course they can disagree and say so. It's good to get a different perspective, but we don't want them actively working against or denigrating us. If they do, we won't invite them back, and DS's and GS's will begin to warn pastors and churches to avoid them.

    2. We expect that it will be clearly communicated that the person is not licensed or ordained by the Church of the Nazarene. Most of the time, this is obvious and easy, because the outside guest preacher is from another church or college or some organization that is not Nazarene. In Dan's case, this gets muddied, because he IS a member of the CotN, but he is NOT a licensed/ordained evangelist. At least, not by us. At some point, he may end up being licensed or ordained by some group somewhere. That won't change his suitability for Nazarene pulpits. What affects his suitability is point number 1, above.

    So, for me, the sticking point is no longer his lack of licensing or ordination. The sticking point would be if he's a good fit for Nazarene churches. Expectation #1, above. So far, based on my limited experience with him, I'm undecided... but leaning toward "not a good fit." I know I wouldn't invite him to the church I pastor... but we're not exactly a traditional Nazarene church.
    Thanks Bill Morrison, Jim Chabot, Peggy Gray - "thanks" for this post

  29. #229
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post

    So, for me, the sticking point is no longer his lack of licensing or ordination. The sticking point would be if he's a good fit for Nazarene churches. Expectation #1, above. So far, based on my limited experience with him, I'm undecided... but leaning toward "not a good fit." I know I wouldn't invite him to the church I pastor... but we're not exactly a traditional Nazarene church.
    Not that you would want to do this little experiment, but:

    Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if Dan would hold services at a "non-traditional" Nazarene church like yours?

    Would his usual report of "all but four came forward to pray at the end, many were healed, etc." hold OR would Dan be needing to shake the dust off his sandals as it were and move on to a more receptive congregation?

    This would be a fascinating thing to observe from my perspective. Perhaps it would shed some light on whether this is a real moving of the Spirit or just emotional outpourings.

    But since I imagine Dan is only invited to churches where the pastor and many members are prepared for his message, this will need to remain a "thought-only" experiment. And besides, who could dare to put God or His messengers, ordained or not, under the microscope?

    BILL
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  30. #230
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    My inclination is to say that...if he is not against us, he is for us. Though I do not think he would be an evangelistic fit at many of our churches, so what? No one is a fit at all of our churches, that I know of.

    The time I heard him preach in person was at Skyline Wesleyan in San Diego. His demeanor and presentation was friendly and warm-hearted, no yelling. He gave an overview of the sanctified, Spirit-filled experience and ended with a near, "If this would be helpful to you, why wouldn't you want to come forward?" Nearly everyone did.

    A question I had revolved around...a message on sanctification so when we opened the altars, all but four came forward so we must have had one thousand claim sanctification. My evaluation was that there were a lot of sanctified, Spirit-filled people in the crowd and lots of them went forward just to take advantage of an opportunity to draw nearer to the Featured One. So, to say that "everyone" or "nearly everyone" came forward for sanctification would have been quite an over-statement. That's what I think.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    So I sit here, fighting inside of myself as to if I should make this next post or not...Well, as you can see, I have chosen to post it and leave it in God's hands.

    I want to be careful right from the beginning that this is not an attack at all on Doug. It might come that way, but I am only using him as an example because he was the one who started another thread that has brought me to this post. In the Movie Review Forum, an older post was brought up concerning a review of the movie "The Big Short." Although he did it with a disclaimer, Doug's review of the movie was "This was a deeply moral movie in theme and tone." This review in turn encouraged others to see this movie.

    Just to be clear, I am not legalistic in a way of Nazarene's from 100 years ago. I have no problem with movies and in fact saw a great one on Saturday night called "Hidden Figures." But I do fully believe that as Christians, we have a responsibility to filter what we allow our eyes and ears to see and hear. So, because I thought it would be an interesting movie to see, I started investigating this "deeply moral" movie. Here is what I found:

    You can read the full review here:
    From: http://www.pluggedin.com/movie-reviews/the-big-short

    Sexual Content

    As Mark investigates whether or not to bet against mortgage bonds, he goes on a fact-finding mission to a … strip club. (Turns out one real estate agent targets strippers for his special brand of home loans because they have difficulty getting traditional ones.) In a VIP room, while the mostly unclothed exotic dancer writhes in front of him (her breasts are basically bare), Mark asks about her real estate investments.
    Bankers cavort in another strip club, and moviegoers see dancers prance around in thongs and pasties. Bikini-clad women frolic in a Las Vegas pool. One woman flirts with an investment banker, at least in part because she hopes to get a job with his firm. (It's implied she sleeps with him.)
    In one of the movie’s educational segments—which are celebrity-saturated asides explaining the bewildering lingo and complicated concepts integral to the plot—actress Margot Robbie explains mortgage bonds while taking a bubble bath.


    Crude or Profane Language

    Approaching 100 f-words. About 50 s-words. Also, quantities of “a--,” b--ch,” “h---,” “p---” and “pr--k.” God’s name is misused 10 or so times, thrice with “d--n.” Jesus’ name is abused a half-dozen times.


    So here I am. Reading this morning how so many "Christians" are so upset at a man who is preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Sanctification because of a few weird things that might make you feel uncomfortable, while at the same time having not one issue with feeding our already desensitized souls with Hollywood trash like this and calling it "deeply moral." Yes, I am completely aware that Doug wasn't necessarily calling the movie itself moral, only the message of the movie. So if you want to argue that point, whatever.


    To me, this is part of the reason the church is so messed up. As the song says, "We find ourselves living life upside down"


    John has a new way of looking at life
    He's tired of his job, his kids and his wife
    Says the secret to his success
    Was in leaving and finding himself
    Now he's someone to somebody else
    You say we've risen to a new age of truth
    And you're calling it a spiritual Godly pursuit
    But I say, but I say

    [Chorus]


    What if we've fallen to the bottom of a well
    Thinking we've risen to the top of a mountain
    What if we're knocking at the gates of hell
    Thinking that we're heaven bound
    And what if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
    When we should have been thinking of each other
    What if we reach up and touch the ground
    To find we're living life, upside down

    We've got a program to saving the earth
    While unborn children are denied their right to birth
    One baby's blessed, another cursed
    Have we made this world better or worse
    Now the life of a tree comes first?
    You say we've risen to a new age of light
    You're telling me what used to be wrong is now right
    But I say, I say"


    (Chorus)


    Sorry...I'll take a tongues speaking, slain-in-the-spirit believing, sanctification preacher any day!



    Blessings!

  32. #232
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    So I sit here, fighting inside of myself as to if I should make this next post or not...Well, as you can see, I have chosen to post it and leave it in God's hands.

    I want to be careful right from the beginning that this is not an attack at all on Doug. It might come that way, but I am only using him as an example because he was the one who started another thread that has brought me to this post. In the Movie Review Forum, an older post was brought up concerning a review of the movie "The Big Short." Although he did it with a disclaimer, Doug's review of the movie was "This was a deeply moral movie in theme and tone." This review in turn encouraged others to see this movie.

    Just to be clear, I am not legalistic in a way of Nazarene's from 100 years ago. I have no problem with movies and in fact saw a great one on Saturday night called "Hidden Figures." But I do fully believe that as Christians, we have a responsibility to filter what we allow our eyes and ears to see and hear. So, because I thought it would be an interesting movie to see, I started investigating this "deeply moral" movie. Here is what I found:

    You can read the full review here:
    From: http://www.pluggedin.com/movie-reviews/the-big-short

    Sexual Content

    As Mark investigates whether or not to bet against mortgage bonds, he goes on a fact-finding mission to a … strip club. (Turns out one real estate agent targets strippers for his special brand of home loans because they have difficulty getting traditional ones.) In a VIP room, while the mostly unclothed exotic dancer writhes in front of him (her breasts are basically bare), Mark asks about her real estate investments.
    Bankers cavort in another strip club, and moviegoers see dancers prance around in thongs and pasties. Bikini-clad women frolic in a Las Vegas pool. One woman flirts with an investment banker, at least in part because she hopes to get a job with his firm. (It's implied she sleeps with him.)
    In one of the movie’s educational segments—which are celebrity-saturated asides explaining the bewildering lingo and complicated concepts integral to the plot—actress Margot Robbie explains mortgage bonds while taking a bubble bath.


    Crude or Profane Language

    Approaching 100 f-words. About 50 s-words. Also, quantities of “a--,” b--ch,” “h---,” “p---” and “pr--k.” God’s name is misused 10 or so times, thrice with “d--n.” Jesus’ name is abused a half-dozen times.


    So here I am. Reading this morning how so many "Christians" are so upset at a man who is preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Sanctification because of a few weird things that might make you feel uncomfortable, while at the same time having not one issue with feeding our already desensitized souls with Hollywood trash like this and calling it "deeply moral." Yes, I am completely aware that Doug wasn't necessarily calling the movie itself moral, only the message of the movie. So if you want to argue that point, whatever.


    To me, this is part of the reason the church is so messed up. As the song says, "We find ourselves living life upside down"


    John has a new way of looking at life
    He's tired of his job, his kids and his wife
    Says the secret to his success
    Was in leaving and finding himself
    Now he's someone to somebody else
    You say we've risen to a new age of truth
    And you're calling it a spiritual Godly pursuit
    But I say, but I say

    [Chorus]


    What if we've fallen to the bottom of a well
    Thinking we've risen to the top of a mountain
    What if we're knocking at the gates of hell
    Thinking that we're heaven bound
    And what if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
    When we should have been thinking of each other
    What if we reach up and touch the ground
    To find we're living life, upside down

    We've got a program to saving the earth
    While unborn children are denied their right to birth
    One baby's blessed, another cursed
    Have we made this world better or worse
    Now the life of a tree comes first?
    You say we've risen to a new age of light
    You're telling me what used to be wrong is now right
    But I say, I say"


    (Chorus)


    Sorry...I'll take a tongues speaking, slain-in-the-spirit believing, sanctification preacher any day!



    Blessings!
    Why didn't you post this in that thread? More specifically, I am missing what this has to do with the discussion about Dan Bohi besides the fact that you don't think his ministry is worse than a R rated movie. Also despite your disclaimer, this post comes off an awful lot like you are saying that, being that Doug liked a movie that Plugged In gave a bad review to, that he has no business criticizing Dan Bohi. Perhaps thats not what you intended but it is how it comes across. Also, once again, the sentence at the end does not at make it a part of this thread.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  33. #233
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    So I sit here, fighting inside of myself as to if I should make this next post or not...Well, as you can see, I have chosen to post it and leave it in God's hands.

    I want to be careful right from the beginning that this is not an attack at all on Doug. It might come that way, but I am only using him as an example because he was the one who started another thread that has brought me to this post. In the Movie Review Forum, an older post was brought up concerning a review of the movie "The Big Short." Although he did it with a disclaimer, Doug's review of the movie was "This was a deeply moral movie in theme and tone." This review in turn encouraged others to see this movie.

    Just to be clear, I am not legalistic in a way of Nazarene's from 100 years ago. I have no problem with movies and in fact saw a great one on Saturday night called "Hidden Figures." But I do fully believe that as Christians, we have a responsibility to filter what we allow our eyes and ears to see and hear. So, because I thought it would be an interesting movie to see, I started investigating this "deeply moral" movie. Here is what I found:

    You can read the full review here:
    From: http://www.pluggedin.com/movie-reviews/the-big-short

    Sexual Content

    As Mark investigates whether or not to bet against mortgage bonds, he goes on a fact-finding mission to a … strip club. (Turns out one real estate agent targets strippers for his special brand of home loans because they have difficulty getting traditional ones.) In a VIP room, while the mostly unclothed exotic dancer writhes in front of him (her breasts are basically bare), Mark asks about her real estate investments.
    Bankers cavort in another strip club, and moviegoers see dancers prance around in thongs and pasties. Bikini-clad women frolic in a Las Vegas pool. One woman flirts with an investment banker, at least in part because she hopes to get a job with his firm. (It's implied she sleeps with him.)
    In one of the movie’s educational segments—which are celebrity-saturated asides explaining the bewildering lingo and complicated concepts integral to the plot—actress Margot Robbie explains mortgage bonds while taking a bubble bath.


    Crude or Profane Language

    Approaching 100 f-words. About 50 s-words. Also, quantities of “a--,” b--ch,” “h---,” “p---” and “pr--k.” God’s name is misused 10 or so times, thrice with “d--n.” Jesus’ name is abused a half-dozen times.


    So here I am. Reading this morning how so many "Christians" are so upset at a man who is preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Sanctification because of a few weird things that might make you feel uncomfortable, while at the same time having not one issue with feeding our already desensitized souls with Hollywood trash like this and calling it "deeply moral." Yes, I am completely aware that Doug wasn't necessarily calling the movie itself moral, only the message of the movie. So if you want to argue that point, whatever.


    To me, this is part of the reason the church is so messed up. As the song says, "We find ourselves living life upside down"


    John has a new way of looking at life
    He's tired of his job, his kids and his wife
    Says the secret to his success
    Was in leaving and finding himself
    Now he's someone to somebody else
    You say we've risen to a new age of truth
    And you're calling it a spiritual Godly pursuit
    But I say, but I say

    [Chorus]


    What if we've fallen to the bottom of a well
    Thinking we've risen to the top of a mountain
    What if we're knocking at the gates of hell
    Thinking that we're heaven bound
    And what if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
    When we should have been thinking of each other
    What if we reach up and touch the ground
    To find we're living life, upside down

    We've got a program to saving the earth
    While unborn children are denied their right to birth
    One baby's blessed, another cursed
    Have we made this world better or worse
    Now the life of a tree comes first?
    You say we've risen to a new age of light
    You're telling me what used to be wrong is now right
    But I say, I say"


    (Chorus)


    Sorry...I'll take a tongues speaking, slain-in-the-spirit believing, sanctification preacher any day!



    Blessings!
    Jim,

    This comparison is a logical fallacy. For starters, Doug is not taking time on a Sunday morning to show his congregation this movie. It is quite a different thing to talk about the morals present in a movie and give away the pulpit.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  34. #234
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    So I sit here, fighting inside of myself as to if I should make this next post or not...Well, as you can see, I have chosen to post it and leave it in God's hands.

    I want to be careful right from the beginning that this is not an attack at all on Doug. It might come that way, but I am only using him as an example because he was the one who started another thread that has brought me to this post. In the Movie Review Forum, an older post was brought up concerning a review of the movie "The Big Short." Although he did it with a disclaimer, Doug's review of the movie was "This was a deeply moral movie in theme and tone." This review in turn encouraged others to see this movie.

    Just to be clear, I am not legalistic in a way of Nazarene's from 100 years ago. I have no problem with movies and in fact saw a great one on Saturday night called "Hidden Figures." But I do fully believe that as Christians, we have a responsibility to filter what we allow our eyes and ears to see and hear. So, because I thought it would be an interesting movie to see, I started investigating this "deeply moral" movie. Here is what I found:

    You can read the full review here:
    From: http://www.pluggedin.com/movie-reviews/the-big-short

    Sexual Content

    As Mark investigates whether or not to bet against mortgage bonds, he goes on a fact-finding mission to a … strip club. (Turns out one real estate agent targets strippers for his special brand of home loans because they have difficulty getting traditional ones.) In a VIP room, while the mostly unclothed exotic dancer writhes in front of him (her breasts are basically bare), Mark asks about her real estate investments.
    Bankers cavort in another strip club, and moviegoers see dancers prance around in thongs and pasties. Bikini-clad women frolic in a Las Vegas pool. One woman flirts with an investment banker, at least in part because she hopes to get a job with his firm. (It's implied she sleeps with him.)
    In one of the movie’s educational segments—which are celebrity-saturated asides explaining the bewildering lingo and complicated concepts integral to the plot—actress Margot Robbie explains mortgage bonds while taking a bubble bath.


    Crude or Profane Language

    Approaching 100 f-words. About 50 s-words. Also, quantities of “a--,” b--ch,” “h---,” “p---” and “pr--k.” God’s name is misused 10 or so times, thrice with “d--n.” Jesus’ name is abused a half-dozen times.


    So here I am. Reading this morning how so many "Christians" are so upset at a man who is preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Sanctification because of a few weird things that might make you feel uncomfortable, while at the same time having not one issue with feeding our already desensitized souls with Hollywood trash like this and calling it "deeply moral." Yes, I am completely aware that Doug wasn't necessarily calling the movie itself moral, only the message of the movie. So if you want to argue that point, whatever.


    To me, this is part of the reason the church is so messed up. As the song says, "We find ourselves living life upside down"


    John has a new way of looking at life
    He's tired of his job, his kids and his wife
    Says the secret to his success
    Was in leaving and finding himself
    Now he's someone to somebody else
    You say we've risen to a new age of truth
    And you're calling it a spiritual Godly pursuit
    But I say, but I say

    [Chorus]


    What if we've fallen to the bottom of a well
    Thinking we've risen to the top of a mountain
    What if we're knocking at the gates of hell
    Thinking that we're heaven bound
    And what if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
    When we should have been thinking of each other
    What if we reach up and touch the ground
    To find we're living life, upside down

    We've got a program to saving the earth
    While unborn children are denied their right to birth
    One baby's blessed, another cursed
    Have we made this world better or worse
    Now the life of a tree comes first?
    You say we've risen to a new age of light
    You're telling me what used to be wrong is now right
    But I say, I say"


    (Chorus)


    Sorry...I'll take a tongues speaking, slain-in-the-spirit believing, sanctification preacher any day!



    Blessings!
    Also even if this were a valid argument, it would be (at best), even if A is bad, B (which has nothing to do with A) is worse, therefore we should care only about B and not A.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  35. #235
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Sorry...I'll take a tongues speaking, slain-in-the-spirit believing, sanctification preacher any day!
    As others have shared, I'm not sure why you are combining these two controversies. Your concern over a movie is well founded. Your lack of concern over Mr. Bohi's ministry is disturbing. If you want to attend other "tongues speaking, slain-in-the-spirit believing" churches I'm OK with that. However, if as a Nazarene Pastor you are inviting these speakers into a Nazarene church you are inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene.
    Furthermore, we believe that our people should not participate in services or meetings which encourage the practice of speaking in tongues or schedule in our churches speakers or singers who are known to be active in the so-called charismatic movement.
    Thanks Tim Troxler - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Why didn't you post this in that thread? More specifically, I am missing what this has to do with the discussion about Dan Bohi besides the fact that you don't think his ministry is worse than a R rated movie. Also despite your disclaimer, this post comes off an awful lot like you are saying that, being that Doug liked a movie that Plugged In gave a bad review to, that he has no business criticizing Dan Bohi. Perhaps thats not what you intended but it is how it comes across. Also, once again, the sentence at the end does not at make it a part of this thread.
    I was actually torn between where to post it. I chose here because I thought that it made more sense since I am tying it into this conversation. I know that I probably won't be able to make myself clear. What I am trying to say is that there is so many on here that get so worked up over Dan (with you being really the only one to raise a legitimate issue), but nothing is said about the promotion of trash movies. It's my frustration over the fact that we have things so backwards. We want to fight about some guy who is at least seeking God with what seems to be all of his heart but we have no problem with the things that are truly leading so many people to hell. I find that sadly ironic which was the reason behind my post.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Jim,

    This comparison is a logical fallacy. For starters, Doug is not taking time on a Sunday morning to show his congregation this movie. It is quite a different thing to talk about the morals present in a movie and give away the pulpit.
    Tim, see my response to Cam. I know he's not. But time is taken on here to promote it and in the same breath go after Dan

  38. #238
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    I was actually torn between where to post it. I chose here because I thought that it made more sense since I am tying it into this conversation. I know that I probably won't be able to make myself clear. What I am trying to say is that there is so many on here that get so worked up over Dan (with you being really the only one to raise a legitimate issue), but nothing is said about the promotion of trash movies. It's my frustration over the fact that we have things so backwards. We want to fight about some guy who is at least seeking God with what seems to be all of his heart but we have no problem with the things that are truly leading so many people to hell. I find that sadly ironic which was the reason behind my post.
    Yea but you're tying it in with a false equivalency. Even if someone shares your taste in movies, or trusts Plugged In to tell them what they should like or not, you are making a nonsensical argument. Either you criticize Dan Bohi or you criticize this movie. Why not one or the other? Or both? Or neither? You make it sound as if those of us with criticisms of Bohi shouldn't have those criticisms so long as there are movies out there you (or Plugged In) deem too immoral. Perhaps you and Doug disagree about the movie but it still doesn't make it pertinent to this discussion.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  39. #239
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Tim, see my response to Cam. I know he's not. But time is taken on here to promote it and in a completely different thread on a completely different forum go after Dan

    Fixed*
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Tim Troxler, Jim Bentley - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Tim Troxler - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    As others have shared, I'm not sure why you are combining these two controversies. Your concern over a movie is well founded. Your lack of concern over Mr. Bohi's ministry is disturbing. If you want to attend other "tongues speaking, slain-in-the-spirit believing" churches I'm OK with that. However, if as a Nazarene Pastor you are inviting these speakers into a Nazarene church you are inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene.
    I get you Kevin. The comment at the end was more of an over the top way of venting and saying that we have things screwed up. It's not for lack of concern with Dan. Whether you believe it or not, I read the links you give and listen to the clips you post. I listened to the entire message he gave at the AOG church that you posted and did not hear anything that I would consider out of line. But that's just where you and I will disagree.
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  41. #241
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Tim, see my response to Cam. I know he's not. But time is taken on here to promote it and in the same breath go after Dan
    FWIW I'm not "going after Dan". I have no reason to doubt that he is a nice guy. The controversy as I see it is not that Dan speaks his mind; rather the controversy is that we Nazarenes endorse his views which do not seem to align with our official doctrine.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  42. #242
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    N Perhaps it would shed some light on whether this is a real moving of the Spirit or just emotional outpourings.
    This is not has hard as it might seem. The healings are easy... have the people go to the doctor. Do follow ups a year later with some of the squishier ones. Don't misread this, I believe in healing. I've seen the real deal in my own family and in friends. But I also know if it is real there is nothing to be feared from going to a Doctor, if it is not... well we have our answer.

    As to the number of people at the altar, at the risk of interjecting theology, there is a problem. Frankly, numbers at an altar don't mean much simple emotional manipulation will get that. Further we have already heard reports of extreme exaggeration. IF he were accountable that would be addressed. After it is addressed it becomes lying. Anyone know what the Bible says about liars?

    If what he is doing is from God, hard questions are not to be feared, if not, well then avoiding to much examination makes a lot of sense. Get people to decide based on their emotion rather than the brains God gave them.
    Last edited by Craig Laughlin; February 13th, 2017 at 05:05 PM. Reason: spelling
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    FWIW I'm not "going after Dan". I have no reason to doubt that he is a nice guy. The controversy as I see it is not that Dan speaks his mind; rather the controversy is that we Nazarenes endorse his views which do not seem to align with our official doctrine.
    Exactly, while at the same time we have no problem (as shown by our silence) with the promotion of a movie that contains a ton of trash that does not "align with our official doctrine." And by the way, as I heard it put by a great D.S., we all live under a big tent of Nazarendom. What you say doesn't "Align with our official doctrine", I (and many others) say does.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    This is not has hard as it might seem. The healings are easy... have the people go to the doctor. Do follow ups a year later with some of the squishier ones. Don't misread this, I believe in healing. I've seen the real deal in my own family and in friends. But I also know if it is real there is nothing to be feared from going to an Doctor, if it is not... well we have our answer.

    As to the number of people at the altar, at the risk of interjecting theology, there is a problem. Frankly, numbers at an altar don't mean much simple emotional manipulation will get that. Further we have already heard reports of extreme exaggeration. IF he were accountable that would be addressed. After it is addressed it becomes lying. Anyone know what the Bible says about liars?

    If what he is doing is from God, hard questions are not to be feared, if not, well then avoiding to much examination makes a lot of sense. Get people to decide based on their emotion rather than the brains God gave them.
    Craig....This is well said

  45. #245
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Exactly, while at the same time we have no problem (as shown by our silence) with the promotion of a movie that contains a ton of trash that does not "align with our official doctrine." And by the way, as I heard it put by a great D.S., we all live under a big tent of Nazarendom. What you say doesn't "Align with our official doctrine", I (and many others) say does.
    Once again, this sounds like the argument you are making is "if you wanna give The Big Short a pass (by way of silence) then who cares if I (and many others) do the same with Dan Bohi since they both step outside of Nazarene polity and doctrine" but I don't THINK that is the argument you wish to make.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Tim Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  46. #246
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Exactly, while at the same time we have no problem (as shown by our silence) with the promotion of a movie that contains a ton of trash that does not "align with our official doctrine." And by the way, as I heard it put by a great D.S., we all live under a big tent of Nazarendom. What you say doesn't "Align with our official doctrine", I (and many others) say does.
    Again, this is a false equivalency. I can understand and respect your position to not condone a particular movie, but that is a very different thing than what is preached from a pulpit.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Once again, this sounds like the argument you are making is "if you wanna give The Big Short a pass (by way of silence) then who cares I (and many others) do with Dan Bohi since they both step outside of Nazarene polity and doctrine" but I don't THINK that is the argument you wish to make.
    No, its not the argument i am making. I just think that he (Dan) has not stepped outside of the lines.
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  48. #248
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    What exactly is 'a word of knowledge'? Is there agreement among scholars? We could take it to mean all things. We see the baptism of the dead in scripture, but we don't practice that either.

  49. #249
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    No, its not the argument i am making. I just think that he (Dan) has not stepped outside of the lines.
    That's what I figured. Then I have to ask why bring the movie into it at all? What does one have to do with the other? Just because people on NN didn't speak out against a movie review (based on another movie review apparently) doesn't mean it is unreasonable for people to speak out on a Nazarene evangelist potentially stepping outside of doctrine and shirking the very accountability (ordination) that confirms or denies such a thing for those of us called to fill pulpits in this denomination.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  50. #250
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    What exactly is 'a word of knowledge'? Is there agreement among scholars? We could take it to mean all things. We see the baptism of the dead in scripture, but we don't practice that either.
    Randy Clark (Dan's buddy) and his team taught this stuff to our congregation back in 2005. You can also be taught this gift:
    https://globalawakening.com/index.ph...gid=83&Itemid=
    One of the most disturbing teachings we received was that it was OK to get your "Word of knowledge" wrong. For example:
    A word of knowledge may be rather vague, tempting you to screen it out or to ignore it. Practice “tuning in” to these revelations and speaking them out. If you are tentative and humble, not arrogant or presumptuous, no one will be offended if you seem to have heard amiss.

  51. #251
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    No, its not the argument i am making. I just think that he (Dan) has not stepped outside of the lines.
    Jim, Do you believe Dan is active in the Charismatic movement?

    If you can honestly answer No, then I will just have to accept that we disagree.

    On the other hand, if you have to answer yes, then he is inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene.
    Furthermore, we believe that our people should not participate in services or meetings which encourage the practice of speaking in tongues or schedule in our churches speakers or singers who are known to be active in the so-called charismatic movement.
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  52. #252
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    This is not has hard as it might seem. The healings are easy... have the people go to the doctor. Do follow ups a year later with some of the squishier ones. Don't misread this, I believe in healing. I've seen the real deal in my own family and in friends. But I also know if it is real there is nothing to be feared from going to an Doctor, if it is not... well we have our answer.
    I would certainly like to see more of this....for Dan and others who preach in the way he does.
    But that is just the scientist in me coming to the surface........and we all know the damage scientists can do in our colleges and churches

    BILL
    Thanks Billy Cox - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Kevin Wright, Craig Laughlin, John Kennedy, Jon Bemis - thanks for this funny post

  53. #253
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    or

    [/I]It never sounds to me as if Paul is denying the gift of prophecy or revelation. That was my point to Bob.

    I don't think we deny there is a certain degree of knowledge God imparts to us, I'm grateful for the Revelation God has given. It is, however, very prone to abuse. When I posture myself as having heard directly from God during a worship service concerning someone's condition when they have not been privy to such knowledge, it puts me in the awkward position of conveying a message that God did not trust them to receive so he revealed it to someone else. Now doesn't that strike you as slightly messed up? I mean, it gives a person unusual power over another individual. And when that power abused, God will somehow be viewed as the causal agent. I don't think Paul had that in mind when he wrote the Corinthians. It's like a game I used to play as a kid, "I know something you don't know..." But that's the game Dan is playing. He's the one receiving knowledge and no one else is, that's a game. I don't think we should be playing that game with listeners. We can assume knowledge, but we must be very careful in how it is handled. It's very possible we could be wrong. It's possible to hear my own desires and chalk it up as God speaking because with God, I have instant credibility.

    I'd be falling slain in the spirit too! If God revealed my health issues to a total stranger and then had that person tell me they were being healed, I would be jumping up and down going bezerk. I'm guessing that is rarely the case though, but i'm pretty sure Dan is going to make it the norm.
    Thanks Greg Farra - "thanks" for this post

  54. #254
    Senior Member Marsha Lynn's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I don't know where I've been but the first time you posted about the Gaithers was the first time I had ever heard that they were Nazarene. I never heard the Nazarene brand associated with them. In contrast to Dan where Nazarene seems to be his middle name.
    Bill Gaither and his siblings grew up in the CotN in Alexandria, Indiana, but he graduated from Anderson College, which is Church of God (Anderson), a sister holiness denomination. His wife Gloria was from the Church of God and I think after marriage they went that direction rather than the CotN. So the background is there, but not the association during their long career.

    Still, if they HAD chosen the CotN, it seems likely they would have pursued their music career independent of the denomination.

    Reference (besides Wikipedia): My mother-in-law was nine years older than Bill and was part of the same church. She told stories of Bill and his siblings singing in church as children.
    Only the power of the Holy Spirit can get truth past the obvious.

  55. #255
    Senior Member Greg Gates's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsha Lynn View Post
    Still, if they HAD chosen the CotN, it seems likely they would have pursued their music career independent of the denomination.
    Nope. NPH famously turned Bill Gaither down.

    I once worked with an insurance agent who had a poster of a really cool old car in his office with his last name (Lyons) as the make. The story was that his great grandfather had a car company in Indiana and it was doing really well. One day Henry Ford walked in and asked if he would want to partner with him to create an assembly line for manufacturing cars. He said no and now all that was left of the Lyons-Knight Automobile Co. was that poster.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Marsha Lynn, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  56. #256
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsha Lynn View Post
    Bill Gaither and his siblings grew up in the CotN in Alexandria, Indiana, but he graduated from Anderson College, which is Church of God (Anderson), a sister holiness denomination. His wife Gloria was from the Church of God and I think after marriage they went that direction rather than the CotN. So the background is there, but not the association during their long career.

    Still, if they HAD chosen the CotN, it seems likely they would have pursued their music career independent of the denomination.

    Reference (besides Wikipedia): My mother-in-law was nine years older than Bill and was part of the same church. She told stories of Bill and his siblings singing in church as children.
    Bill's dad, George was CofG Anderson, Gloria's dad was a CofG Anderson pastor. It's only recently 5-10 years that they have gone back to the CofG, I know that they were still Nazarene's when Danny died, and I remember Bill sending a friend of mine a note about 5-6 years ago, telling him that they had sang one of my friends songs in Church that morning at the CofN in Alexandria.. Who knows, maybe the CofN in Alexandria had changed pastors and the Gaithers went back to the CofG because it was more like a Nazarene Church of old?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  57. #257
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Yea but you're tying it in with a false equivalency. Even if someone shares your taste in movies, or trusts Plugged In to tell them what they should like or not, you are making a nonsensical argument. Either you criticize Dan Bohi or you criticize this movie. Why not one or the other? Or both? Or neither? You make it sound as if those of us with criticisms of Bohi shouldn't have those criticisms so long as there are movies out there you (or Plugged In) deem too immoral. Perhaps you and Doug disagree about the movie but it still doesn't make it pertinent to this discussion.
    The false equivalency statement is very on target.

    I've not seen the movie in question, nor does the topic interest me. And if I were to venture a guess, it would be a very lopsided scale as to the number of Nazarenes who saw that movie vs. the number who have heard him preach.

    The movie may indeed be suspect, but the influence by sheer number is much fewer than the influence of anyone who goes and preaches in Nazarene circles to the extent of him.

    There's the caution.
    Thanks Kevin Wright, Cam Pence, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jon Bemis's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Maybe so. But you nor I really know. The point of this sub-conversation within the OP was when Bob said - "The most dangerous part is "hearing directly from God" or "Words of Knowledge" presumably occasions where God gives a preacher inside information regarding the human condition."...... and my point was that this does in fact still happen today and is scriptural.
    I agree that "words of knowledge" and "prophecy" are scriptural and happen today. I don't agree that the Word of Faith/Signs Following movements and various offshoots like them are practicing those gifts according to scripture and the historical understandings of the Church. IMO they have invented new definitions for these gifts to validate the things they are doing.
    Loving God . . . Loving others.

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I didn't listen to the whole thing, so I can't comment on context. But I didn't hear what Kevin was saying he heard. I thought that the "Kerosene" line was quite funny, I might even use it sometime. He didn't say that he was doing greater things than Jesus, he didn't take attribution. Jesus did say that greater things were yet to come, no? Of course he loves it when people send him money, I'll bet the pastors love it when their people pay them a decent wage too, as they should! I didn't see support for slaying in the Spirit, nor did I see where he gave attribution to God for people falling down, he did say it is weird. I think it's weird too, but I can't see a difference between someone falling down, and someone running the aisles or shouting out, both of which are common Nazarene practices. He did acknowledge having a private prayer language, that's about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    First, he's not "my man." Second, I should have backed it up when I posted but it was late and I was tired. Jim C's post #191 pretty much said it for me (although i did not even hear him say that HE had a prayer language, he only acknowledged that they believed it - and of course they do...it was an AOG church) (but I am going to go back and listen again).

    He certainly was not "making fun" of Nazarene's. In the full length clip, it was in his introduction and explanation of who he was to a church unfamiliar with him. I, like Jim C, found the line kind of funny. Especially when I can relate as a Charismatic Nazarene myself.
    I wanted to get back to these clips to explain my comments.
    1. makes fun of Nazarenes
      I was not referring to his opening comment on being a "Kerosine". I included that clip to show how open he is to calling himself a Charismatic. Of course, he did the same at M11 in front of Nazarene leadership. Where he makes fun of Nazarenes is in his explantaion of people falling down:
      "I've seen thousands of people fall down. Listen, I'm talking about mostly Nazarene churches. I get in trouble for that." He then followed that comment by derogatory sound effects. It was very disrespectful.
    2. supports "slaying in the spirit" (although he thinks it's weird)
      While he tries to soften the comment by saying he thinks it's weird, in actuality he is defending the practice and has no problem with promoting it. I have another story from one of his visits:
      Dan gave a little lecture prior to starting the "ministry time". This is usually where the slaying starts. (also known as carpet time) He said that we are a house of order so he instructed people if they started to feel like they are going to fall, have a seat in the front row. My thought was, that's good, he is moving away from these charismatic manifestations. It wasn't until the following week at his next stop when he shared testimonies of people being slayed that I realized he was just following our Pastors instruction; not that he had a change of heart. Dan seems to have the power to manipulate the "holy spirit" however Dan sees fit.
    3. shares how he is doing greater things than Jesus (and he loves when people send him money for it)
      See my post #196
      Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
      Talk about context.
      https://www.gotquestions.org/greater-works.html

      The charismatic movement is all about elevating man's power while diminishing God's. It often quotes this verse out of context in order to make it sound biblical.
    4. acknowledges having a prayer language
      "Probably it doesn't have anything to do with the prayer language. Sorry to break that to you. Because there are a lot of billions of people...or millions that have a prayer language that are not doing what Jesus did. Come on church. You say are you bad mouthing? No I'm not bad mouthing nothing because I do the same thing you do but that's not what gives you the power. The Holy Spirit is what gives you the power."

  60. #260
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Dan has lost something like 70 pounds in the past three months or so (something I doubt I could do even if I ate nothing)..............his detractors better focus on other issues

    BILL
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  61. #261
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Dan has lost something like 70 pounds in the past three months or so (something I doubt I could do even if I ate nothing)..............his detractors better focus on other issues

    BILL
    His weight was never an issue for me. I am happy for him. That's got to feel great.
    Thanks Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  62. #262
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    His weight was never an issue for me. I am happy for him. That's got to feel great.
    I realize that Kevin....sorry if that seemed implied.

    I'm poking at others (and also feeling good for him)

    BILL

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Then let us hope that it is due to listening to his critics who take issue on the serious obesity of a man speaking from the pulpit rather than a reaction to a medical check up, as I feel that the former would give more motivation to stick to weight loss long term even against the opinion of doctors who say it is not possible to avoid regaining it as this late stage. Well at least on conventional dieting which requires so much will power to stay in starvation mode.

    Nevertheless, those who support him in his vastly unhealthy state are doing him no service and are in effect 'enabling' him and thereby helping to dig his grave with their so called kindness.
    Last edited by Brenda Redshaw; February 16th, 2017 at 06:14 AM.

  64. #264
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenda Redshaw View Post
    Then let us hope that it is due to listening to his critics who take issue on the serious obesity of a man speaking from the pulpit rather than a reaction to a medical check up, as I feel that the former would give more motivation to stick to weight loss long term even against the opinion of doctors who say it is not possible to avoid regaining it as this late stage. Well at least on conventional dieting which requires so much will power to stay in starvation mode.

    Nevertheless, those who support him in his vastly unhealthy state are doing him no service and are in effect 'enabling' him and thereby helping to dig his grave with their so called kindness.
    I'm more concerned of what comes out of his mouth then what he puts into his mouth.
    I have a lot of compassion for those that deal with weight issues but I have more compassion for those that are caught up in bad theology.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I'm more concerned of what comes out of his mouth then what he puts into his mouth.
    I have a lot of compassion for those that deal with weight issues but I have more compassion for those that are caught up in bad theology.
    You would be agreeing with Jesus, while Brenda is clearly not agreeing with Him.

    While I'm not seeing Dan as being quite over the line, I do share your concern, and I would agree that he does seem close to the line. Then again, my preference is to be closer to the line as opposed to being far distant from it.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Yes I agree with you there. Nevertheless, the weight issue is still important.

  67. #267
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Furthermore, we believe that our people should not participate in services or meetings which encourage the practice of speaking in tongues or schedule in our churches speakers or singers who are known to be active in the so-called charismatic movement.
    Kevin, can you post a link to the document where this quote was taken from?
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

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  68. #268
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Kevin, can you post a link to the document where this quote was taken from?
    It is a statment from the BOGS from 1976:
    The general superintendents issued strongly-worded statements in their Quadrennial Address to the 1976 General Assembly, and in October 1976, in the Herald of Holiness.
    I found it documented in the following material:
    Examining Our Christian Heritage 2, Clergy Development, Church of the Nazarene, 2004. Which you can find here (starting on page 274):
    http://www.usacanadaregion.org/sites...s/CH2StuGu.pdf
    It was also reinforced by a 2002 Statement that has been talked about on NazNet:
    http://www.naznet.com/community/show...=2845#post2845

    I also pulled it all together on this site, since I have had to refer to it often:
    https://nazarenelayman.wordpress.com...arene-beliefs/
    Thanks Eric Frey, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

  69. #269
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenda Redshaw View Post
    Yes I agree with you there. Nevertheless, the weight issue is still important.
    Can we critique your health habits? How much do you weigh? Are you gluten free? Dairy free? Sugar free?

    I mean, the weight issue is important so I'm told. You could be guilty of something.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    The weight issue is concerning men who stand in the pulpit as spiritual leaders, there as an example of what the Bible teaches regarding entire sanctification which is freedom from all hindrances through Christ who came to set His people free. I do not get up in the pulpit, but l don't mind being scrutinised despite the straw man, so....

    I have been grain, dairy, nuts, seeds, soy, nightshade, almost sugar free for a year, a diet which does not only cause weight loss but heals the body, especially leptin imbalance.

    Leptin is the hormone that tells the body whether to gain weight or not and can be reset so the weight goes. Normal dieting does not do this. Leptin reset includes correcting circadian rhythm by getting in the sun first thing and avoiding blue light at night.

    Conventional advice does not work, this is cutting edge. If we walk in the light we will be guided to these studies.

    No l do not weigh myself as it is ongoing but l have reduced two sizes in a year which is the best way, slowly. I have about 25 lbs to go. Losing weight fast is bad and if God is talking to us, as Mr Bohi claims for himself, I am sure God would have passed this information on.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    SNARK ALERT!! (I'm kinda sorry I'm not sorry for what I'm posting...but not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenda Redshaw View Post
    The weight issue is concerning men (how about all those obese women who waddle onto the platform?) who stand in the pulpit as spiritual leaders, (because the Bible is clear that all the spiritual leaders and heroes of the faith had no weight issues) there as an example of what the Bible teaches regarding entire sanctification (let's be clear that ES is a theological concept based on the Wesleyan theology, not strictly a biblical concept) which is freedom from all hindrances through Christ who came to set His people free (this is a serious mischaracterization of ES, especially as it relates to physical issues). I do not get up in the pulpit (I'm sure there are more than a few who are happy about that), but l don't mind being scrutinised (good, because your nasty judgemental attitude toward another follower of Christ is despicable) despite the straw man, so....

    Losing weight fast is bad and if God is talking to us, as Mr Bohi claims for himself, I am sure God would have passed this information on (shame on you. If God is talking to you, as you claim, I'm sure He would have passed on to you that your attitude sucks, stinks, and is not real welcome in His family. Take your judgemental diet peddling somewhere else).

  72. #272
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    "getting in the sun first thing."

    (1) what sun?
    (2) is this required during months of below, & way below, freezing temps, too?!

    No wonder we hear re many people being deficient herein (vitamin D) when some climates cause misery that outranks standing outside for a goodly amount of time a lot of the year! Ugh!! If you even SEE the sun much at all. Yes, I know we hear some benefit is gotten through heavy clouds, that is, if your body's not so stressed from the cold that you get sick instead; stress does things like that.
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. ~ Stella Adler
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  73. #273
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenda Redshaw View Post
    The weight issue is concerning men who stand in the pulpit as spiritual leaders, there as an example of what the Bible teaches regarding entire sanctification which is freedom from all hindrances through Christ who came to set His people free. I do not get up in the pulpit, but l don't mind being scrutinised despite the straw man, so....

    I have been grain, dairy, nuts, seeds, soy, nightshade, almost sugar free for a year, a diet which does not only cause weight loss but heals the body, especially leptin imbalance.

    Leptin is the hormone that tells the body whether to gain weight or not and can be reset so the weight goes. Normal dieting does not do this. Leptin reset includes correcting circadian rhythm by getting in the sun first thing and avoiding blue light at night.

    Conventional advice does not work, this is cutting edge. If we walk in the light we will be guided to these studies.

    No l do not weigh myself as it is ongoing but l have reduced two sizes in a year which is the best way, slowly. I have about 25 lbs to go. Losing weight fast is bad and if God is talking to us, as Mr Bohi claims for himself, I am sure God would have passed this information on.
    Sounds like you just got sanctified a year ago. Nice! Assuming sanctification is diet related, I'd like to put President Donald Trump on a strict diet of kale, nuts, gluten free bread, sugar free snacks, lean meat and vegetables. Maybe that will neutralized his vitriol.

  74. #274
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    Sounds like you just got sanctified a year ago. Nice! Assuming sanctification is diet related, I'd like to put President Donald Trump on a strict diet of kale, nuts, gluten free bread, sugar free snacks, lean meat and vegetables. Maybe that will neutralized his vitriol.
    I have my annual district license renewal interview in about a month. I suppose when the sanctification question comes up, I should show them a log of my food consumption.
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net
    Laughing Bob Hunter - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    Sounds like you just got sanctified a year ago. Nice! Assuming sanctification is diet related, I'd like to put President Donald Trump on a strict diet of kale, nuts, gluten free bread, sugar free snacks, lean meat and vegetables. Maybe that will neutralized his vitriol.
    Based upon her own definition of ES, she has not yet received this because she is still losing weight to get to that spiritual number.

  76. #276
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Based upon her own definition of ES, she has not yet received this because she is still losing weight to get to that spiritual number.
    All I know is that I must be super spiritual and super sanctified because I weigh 150 lbs and have about 8% body fat. I've been at this weight for decades. God's sanctifying grace went right to my metabolism.
    Laughing Tim Bourland - thanks for this funny post

  77. #277
    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunter View Post
    All I know is that I must be super spiritual and super sanctified because I weigh 150 lbs and have about 8% body fat. I've been at this weight for decades. God's sanctifying grace went right to my metabolism.
    I just tell people there's more of me to love.
    Laughing Tim Bourland, Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    I just tell people there's more of me to love.
    Bigger vessel = more Room for more Holy Spirit in filling.

    HALLELUJAH!!!
    Laughing Greg Farra - thanks for this funny post

  79. #279
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Bigger vessel = more Room for more Holy Spirit in filling.

    HALLELUJAH!!!
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net
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  80. #280
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    And now back to the topic of Dan's theology.

    http://pulpitandpen.org/2017/02/17/s...rror-anointed/
    Thanks Tim Troxler, Peggy Gray - "thanks" for this post

  81. #281
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    From the article:

    It is imperative that Christians understand the importance of biblical literacy when it comes to discerning truth and error. It’s of subsequent importance that Christians be able to convey the truth they’ve come to know.
    Biblical literacy and conveying our beliefs aren't in the basic one-size fits all evangelical discipleship programs in American churches. This is not a Nazarene-specific problem.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Kevin Wright - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina Stevenson View Post
    "getting in the sun first thing."

    (1) what sun?
    (2) is this required during months of below, & way below, freezing temps, too?!

    No wonder we hear re many people being deficient herein (vitamin D) when some climates cause misery that outranks standing outside for a goodly amount of time a lot of the year! Ugh!! If you even SEE the sun much at all. Yes, I know we hear some benefit is gotten through heavy clouds, that is, if your body's not so stressed from the cold that you get sick instead; stress does things like that.
    Hi Gina, for those living in northern climes, there are vitamin D lamps for winter which I use. I had my levels tested this week actually and they are very high. That is pretty amazing for NE England this time of the year. For those suffering from SAD there are cheap light boxes available.
    Laughing Gina Stevenson - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Tim
    you wrote in bold, I replied in Italics:

    The weight issue is concerning men (how about all those obese women who waddle onto the platform?) who stand in the pulpit as spiritual leaders, I used man in the Biblical sense meaning mankind (because the Bible is clear that all the spiritual leaders and heroes of the faith had no weight issues) as there were often famines I am sure that did not apply to them there as an example of what the Bible teaches regarding entire sanctification (let's be clear that ES is a theological concept based on the Wesleyan theology, not strictly a biblical concept) so okay you do not hold to Wesleyan theology, so what you are doing contradicting that here is a puzzle. Wesley was very Biblical so it is an issue of interpretation. Those who are ES are enlighterned in this, otherwise it is kept hidden which is freedom from all hindrances through Christ who came to set His people free (this is a serious mischaracterization of ES, especially as it relates to physical issues). I accept that not all sicknesses can be healed, sometimes there is too much damage for complete healing I do not get up in the pulpit (I'm sure there are more than a few who are happy about that), thank you it is a compliment to be refused a pulpit with the true gospel on ES in dark times as the sick in mind prefer others with sick minds - like attracts like, but l don't mind being scrutinised (good, because your nasty judgemental attitude toward another follower of Christ is despicable) yes those who call out sin and those who say the Emperor has no clothes are always mocked despite the straw man, so....

    Losing weight fast is bad and if God is talking to us, as Mr Bohi claims for himself, I am sure God would have passed this information on (shame on you. If God is talking to you, as you claim, I'm sure He would have passed on to you that your attitude sucks, stinks, and is not real welcome in His family. Take your judgemental diet peddling somewhere else). I don't recall that the web site was owned by you. I have been trapped into defending this healthy food plan due to those who have not done the research.

  84. #284
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    SNARK ALERT!! (I'm kinda sorry I'm not sorry for what I'm posting...but not really)
    I understand your frustration Tim and I share your thoughts, still a little over the top though. As wrong as Brenda is on this, we should still try to be kind, and I say this because I'm convicted that I should be kinder myself. Brenda has shared with us that she suffers Asperger's. That said, she may not be quite as judgmental as we are perceiving, those with Asperger's lack a social consciousness and have difficulties relating to others.

    Still, her thoughts toward obesity and spiritual condition are off base and wrong. The Spirit tells us that we are to love others as ourselves, which means we must look past someone's weight or diet and see the person. This can be difficult in Bob Hunter's case because if he turns sideways, you can't see him at all!

    As for the diet that Brenda is using, I'm glad that it is working for her and helping her. Not something that will help me, I'm not English and as such, I don't tolerate English food. Good grief, they boil everything that they see and turn it into a greyish inedible mush with no nutritional value. My dad once told me that the three shortest books ever written were, German humor, Italian war heroes and English fine cuisine.

    So last night I enjoyed a very nice plate of Cajun style Shrimp, Ham and Grits. And I thank God that the French know how to cook food that will reach out and grab your very soul!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Brenda Redshaw - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenda Redshaw View Post
    Hi Gina, for those living in northern climes, there are vitamin D lamps for winter which I use. I had my levels tested this week actually and they are very high. That is pretty amazing for NE England this time of the year. For those suffering from SAD there are cheap light boxes available.
    Gina doesn't suffer from a vitamin deficiency, she suffers from climate withdrawal. What Gina really needs are a few cool energy efficient LED bulbs, located in Arizona.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Craig Laughlin - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I don't tolerate English food. Good grief, they boil everything that they see and turn it into a greyish inedible mush with no nutritional value. My dad once told me that the three shortest books ever written were, German humor, Italian war heroes and English fine cuisine.

    So last night I enjoyed a very nice plate of Cajun style Shrimp, Ham and Grits. And I thank God that the French know how to cook food that will reach out and grab your very soul!
    Jim, haha that was in the past! We now have world class cuisine and French chiefs flocking here. Plenty of raw vegans as well. Very good quality products to be had on farmers markets and cookery shows to teach us better methods.

    Thanks Jim it is true what you said and thanks for your understanding. Aspergers go on facts not relationships and often upset people who want the true toned down for the sake of getting along. It sometimes feels for us that we are living on a strange planet where we do not understand the rules of interaction. We have our good points though
    Thanks Debi Peck - "thanks" for this post

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    Laughing Jim Chabot - thanks for this funny post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I understand your frustration Tim and I share your thoughts, still a little over the top though. As wrong as Brenda is on this, we should still try to be kind, and I say this because I'm convicted that I should be kinder myself. Brenda has shared with us that she suffers Asperger's. That said, she may not be quite as judgmental as we are perceiving, those with Asperger's lack a social consciousness and have difficulties relating to others.

    Still, her thoughts toward obesity and spiritual condition are off base and wrong. The Spirit tells us that we are to love others as ourselves, which means we must look past someone's weight or diet and see the person. This can be difficult in Bob Hunter's case because if he turns sideways, you can't see him at all!

    As for the diet that Brenda is using, I'm glad that it is working for her and helping her. Not something that will help me, I'm not English and as such, I don't tolerate English food. Good grief, they boil everything that they see and turn it into a greyish inedible mush with no nutritional value. My dad once told me that the three shortest books ever written were, German humor, Italian war heroes and English fine cuisine.

    So last night I enjoyed a very nice plate of Cajun style Shrimp, Ham and Grits. And I thank God that the French know how to cook food that will reach out and grab your very soul!
    Do you deliver to Kansas City??

  89. #289
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenda Redshaw View Post
    Jim, haha that was in the past! We now have world class cuisine and French chiefs flocking here. Plenty of raw vegans as well. Very good quality products to be had on farmers markets and cookery shows to teach us better methods.

    Thanks Jim it is true what you said and thanks for your understanding. Aspergers go on facts not relationships and often upset people who want the true toned down for the sake of getting along. It sometimes feels for us that we are living on a strange planet where we do not understand the rules of interaction. We have our good points though
    Yes you do have your good points, it just takes a little understanding for others to see them. Don't get me wrong though, the facts are against you when you say that diet and spiritual/sanctification are somehow related, they are not. Still I am glad that your diet works for you, and while I'm on a different plan, I am interested in hearing things that might work for me.

    FWIW, I am a huge Doc Martin fan. Along with A Touch of Frost, Inspector Morse, Foyles War, Monarch of The Glen, Downton Abbey, Midsomer Murders, Inspector Lewis, Broadchurch, George Gently and still looking for more!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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    Thanks Brenda Redshaw - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Do you deliver to Kansas City??
    No, but you and yours are welcome to come here anytime!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    FWIW, I am a huge Doc Martin fan. Along with A Touch of Frost, Inspector Morse, Foyles War, Monarch of The Glen, Downton Abbey, Midsomer Murders, Inspector Lewis, Broadchurch, George Gently and still looking for more!
    Oh yes all of them! We are the world's best for entertainment since we stopped expanding the Empire (not that I agreed with that). Try Heartbeat set in the 60's. Classic! And Porridge is good too. There are other sitcoms that are excellent like Only Fools and Horses. Anything with David Jason is good.

    diet and spiritual/sanctification are somehow related, they are not.
    Well lets come to the agreement that direct communion with God will lead a person, man or woman to avoiding the things that harm them including adulterated foods. Purity within is bound to lead to wanting to clean up the outside too for us to fuction at optimal. Sadly many of the unsaved want to discipline themselves for this optimal functioning whereas most Christians do not and protest that God gives all good things, mistakenly thinking their fake foods are good..

    So watching Doc Martin gave you insight on Aspergers? He was a bit OTT though lol Loved that.
    Last edited by Brenda Redshaw; February 18th, 2017 at 08:29 AM. Reason: correcting mistake - outside not inside

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    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenda Redshaw View Post
    Let me go on record as saying, I do agree that most American food is total garbage and it is contributing to an unhealthy lifestyle.

    I have totally changed my diet along with my wife. We eat tons of Kale, nuts, gluten free & dairy free products. No carbonated beverages. No High Fructose corn syrup. Eating healthy costs significantly higher than eating garbage, so our monthly food budget is about $1,400 but I also have four teenagers at home.

    I wish more Nazarenes chose to sanctify their eating habits, they might be more productive citizens of the Kingdom of God. It's hard to be fruitful for the Kingdom of God when you are tired and sick. Quite honestly, I haven't been sick with a cold or flu for 1.5 years. I'm sure it will happen at some point because I work with kids and they carry tons of germs, but I'm not living in fear of it.

    Even though, I have healthy eating habits, I don't religiously impose it on others. Some people have a high tolerance for low quality food. My step-dad turns 90 this year and he did not pay much attention to eating habits at all when I was growing up. He ate pop, candy, fast food, etc. I'm a different person, if I improperly fuel my body, I pay the price...My allergies will kick up, I'll be tired and grumpy, bloated and gassy, etc. It's pretty hellish.
    Last edited by Bob Hunter; February 18th, 2017 at 10:43 AM.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Bob we find this in the past generations. They grew up in a much less polluted environment than us so have stronger constitutions. The food was not as adulterated.

    This new generation are worrying doctors, they are so sick with autism amd cancer, the numbers are frightening. At one time I knew no-one who had died from cancer now I know loads.

    A lot of it is just ignorance and when the facts are given, hopefully people will reform their eating habits and like you improve. However for those who are very sick and counting those who are unable to lose their excess weight more drastic measures are necessary like cutting out nuts and seeds and particularly gluten free manufactured products.

    I have found ways to cut my food bill like using the cuts of meat that are not popular and need slow cooking.
    Thanks David Graham - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Didn't someone start another thread about eating and sanctification? Why did the discussion come back here? Personally, I'm not all that interested in the condition of a person's body when they die but do care a whole lot about their soul. The charismatic movement is causing a lot of harm to souls, not sure it is having much effect their bodies.
    Thanks David Graham - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Didn't someone start another thread about eating and sanctification?
    Well, technically that thread wasn't started specifically to talk about eating and sanctification. It is just the conversation that has dominated it.
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    The charismatic movement is causing a lot of harm to souls, not sure it is having much effect their bodies.
    That is a pretty bold and, IMO (I'd almost say fact), untrue statement. Have some been hurt? I'm sure. But I would suggest that just as many have been hurt by the turn off of a dead, lifeless representation of the life changing gospel of Jesus Christ. Turned off by looking around and seeing stoic faces and crossed armed people staring straight ahead looking for the next thing they can complain about ("the music is too loud", "You sang that chorus too many times," "the lights are too dim" and on and on) while never even thinking about what they can do outside of Sunday to grow the Kingdom of God! Turned off by a bunch of people that think it's the pastors job to do everything.

    Interestingly enough, I am right this very minute sitting in a sanctuary in Austin, Texas looking around at 300-500 young adults at a YWAM Circuit Riders conference that are learning how to share their faith with others without fear. It is awesome, beautiful, amazing...and so much more. I looked around as they (we) worshiped last night and this morning with Leeland and Lindy Conant and how they were so drawn to Jesus that they worshiped without abandon (or is it with abandon - I can never remember..ha). I sat and watched their response as Nick Hall brought and amazing word (things like "Comfort is an Idol", "There are things that you can do on earth that you wont be able to do in heaven - love your enemies, lead someone to Christ, or "Have you said yes to Jesus? If so, you've said yes to ministry.")

    I am sure that this meeting would fall in the category for you of "Charismatic" (Which I would say it is - though there is no speaking in tongues or being slain in the spirit), because of the ties of YWAM, Leeland, Lindy, and Nick to others like Bethel, IHOP, etc. But I can assure you, there is no one being "hurt" here and certainly no biblical untruths being shared. In fact, Nick boldly spoke against any "prosperity" message last night.

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    That is a pretty bold and, IMO (I'd almost say fact), untrue statement. Have some been hurt? I'm sure. But I would suggest that just as many have been hurt by the turn off of a dead, lifeless representation of the life changing gospel of Jesus Christ. Turned off by looking around and seeing stoic faces and crossed armed people staring straight ahead looking for the next thing they can complain about ("the music is too loud", "You sang that chorus too many times," "the lights are too dim" and on and on) while never even thinking about what they can do outside of Sunday to grow the Kingdom of God! Turned off by a bunch of people that think it's the pastors job to do everything.

    Interestingly enough, I am right this very minute sitting in a sanctuary in Austin, Texas looking around at 300-500 young adults at a YWAM Circuit Riders conference that are learning how to share their faith with others without fear. It is awesome, beautiful, amazing...and so much more. I looked around as they (we) worshiped last night and this morning with Leeland and Lindy Conant and how they were so drawn to Jesus that they worshiped without abandon (or is it with abandon - I can never remember..ha). I sat and watched their response as Nick Hall brought and amazing word (things like "Comfort is an Idol", "There are things that you can do on earth that you wont be able to do in heaven - love your enemies, lead someone to Christ, or "Have you said yes to Jesus? If so, you've said yes to ministry.")

    I am sure that this meeting would fall in the category for you of "Charismatic" (Which I would say it is - though there is no speaking in tongues or being slain in the spirit), because of the ties of YWAM, Leeland, Lindy, and Nick to others like Bethel, IHOP, etc. But I can assure you, there is no one being "hurt" here and certainly no biblical untruths being shared. In fact, Nick boldly spoke against any "prosperity" message last night.
    I claim "a lot", while you claim "some" have been hurt. These are both very subjective claims but yet you can claim mine is untrue. How many is too many? I would suggest even one getting hurt by a bad theology is too many. I will continue to speak up because I have seen "a lot" of hurt.

    Once again, you also use the idea that the opposite of a dead, lifeless church is to embrace this charismatic movement that Dan and the ministries you listed above are a part of. That is just not the case, there are also dead, lifeless churches in the charismatic denominations. The Nazarene denomination has taken a stance since it's beginning, distancing itself from the Pentecostal/Charismatic teachings and this has nothing to do with whether a church is full of life or not. If you believe along with Dan, that this stance is wrong, and the church needs to be awakened, then I would suggest you are sowing the seeds of division that the BOGS warned us about:
    It is strongly felt that by ignoring such practices or even supporting them, we are sowing seeds for the divisiveness that has historically accompanied such activities. Let us be strong and clear in this matter and not fail in our responsibility to clearly declare what we are and what we are not.

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    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    As it was said in Star Wars, only a Sith believes in absolutes. As Wesleyans, we hold to the via media, the middle way. Perhaps that is where we need to go concerning the Spirit.
    Thanks David Graham - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    --Host Post--

    There will be no more discussion of eating and sanctification or weight and sanctification in this thread.
    God is really good.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    we hold to the via media, the middle way.
    Help me understand what this looks like as it relates to the Bohi controversy.



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    Thanks Greg Farra - "thanks" for this post

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