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Thread: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

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    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I haven't heard his name in a while, and I wonder if that has played itself out.

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    No. His mantle has been taken up by several others. I suspect you don't hear his name much because he is now part of a bigger group. Unfortunately, I predict you will see much more to come.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Ugh. Thanks for the heads up

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    This podcast is one of the centers of the pentecostal movement.
    Last edited by Eric Frey; January 24th, 2017 at 01:48 PM.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    This podcast is one of the centers of the pentecostal movement.
    Link doesn't work....

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Link doesn't work....
    Sorry. Not sure what happened. Craigs link is what I linked.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I think it depends on which district you are on. I think the pentecostal movement is an undeniable part of the history of the CotN so I don't know that it go anywhere any time soon and therefore that Dan Bohi will continue to be a household name at my local congregations. This is honestly one of those things that I have had to learn to be gracious about. Growing up and being baptized and confirmed in the Anglican tradition, I have always found beauty in High Church liturgy and always found low church traditions to be a bit flashy and showy and have seen too much outward sensationalism moments that appear to be more biological than spiritual. Still I have close Nazarene friends that swear by it and I don't think they are unreasonable or less than genuine people. I think the idea of a person with this much influence and so little accountability in our denomination is dangerous however this can't be the first time that a denomination gives a pass to someone who says all the "right things", right? Right?
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Sorry. Not sure what happened. Craigs link is what I linked.
    Your link was missing a colon. That can be fixed, if you have enough faith.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I think the idea of a person with this much influence and so little accountability in our denomination is dangerous...
    Yep this is the real issue.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I think it depends on which district you are on. I think the pentecostal movement is an undeniable part of the history of the CotN so I don't know that it go anywhere any time soon and therefore that Dan Bohi will continue to be a household name at my local congregations. This is honestly one of those things that I have had to learn to be gracious about. Growing up and being baptized and confirmed in the Anglican tradition, I have always found beauty in High Church liturgy and always found low church traditions to be a bit flashy and showy and have seen too much outward sensationalism moments that appear to be more biological than spiritual. Still I have close Nazarene friends that swear by it and I don't think they are unreasonable or less than genuine people. I think the idea of a person with this much influence and so little accountability in our denomination is dangerous however this can't be the first time that a denomination gives a pass to someone who says all the "right things", right? Right?
    This is a real issue, but there is another dangerous and corrosive theological issue that undergirds this part of the church as well. If you have "faith" God will perform some miraculous sign, or healing. God wants us to be whole and healthy. Then when a mom gets cancer, well, you have communicated dangerous ideas that always lead to people falling away from the faith. Why? Because God let my mom die.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Your link was missing a colon. That can be fixed, if you have enough faith.
    Here ya go:

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    This is a real issue, but there is another dangerous and corrosive theological issue that undergirds this part of the church as well. If you have "faith" God will perform some miraculous sign, or healing. God wants us to be whole and healthy. Then when a mom gets cancer, well, you have communicated dangerous ideas that always lead to people falling away from the faith. Why? Because God let my mom die.
    This is why I have to be careful with my attitude on this.

    My sister and only sibling was diagnosed with breast cancer in her early forties. It was a caught very early and was a very slow growing variety. Basically, the prognosis was, if you treat it you will die of something else. Unfortunately my sister was a part of the name-it-and-claim-it crowd. She believed that if she just believed enough God would heal her. She refused treatment claiming that God had told her He was going to heal her... further she was not to go back to the Doctors until she was healed. She died ravished by her cancer and in great pain. She left behind three kids, one in college and two still in high school. Even on my last visit with her she would not let me or my mom say goodbye because she still clung to the belief that God was about to heal her. (Don't get me started on people that say stupid justifying things like... "He did, she's in heaven" that is much more hurtful than people realize)

    Fundamentally my sister died of bad theology. It is a struggle to even be civil to these sorts of preachers. I can't imagine what that Doctor thinks of Christians.
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    Senior Member Debi Peck's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    This is why I have to be careful with my attitude on this.

    My sister and only sibling was diagnosed with breast cancer in her early forties. It was a caught very early and was a very slow growing variety. Basically, the prognosis was, if you treat it you will die of something else. Unfortunately my sister was a part of the name-it-and-claim-it crowd. She believed that if she just believed enough God would heal her. She refused treatment claiming that God had told her He was going to heal her... further she was not to go back to the Doctors until she was healed. She died ravished by her cancer and in great pain. She left behind three kids, one in college and two still in high school. Even on my last visit with her she would not let me or my mom say goodbye because she still clung to the belief that God was about to heal her. (Don't get me started on people that say stupid justifying things like... "He did, she's in heaven" that is much more hurtful than people realize)

    Fundamentally my sister died of bad theology. It is a struggle to even be civil to these sorts of preachers. I can't imagine what that Doctor thinks of Christians.
    I join you in your sentiment. I lost two aunts to almost this exact scenario. <<<<HUGS>>>>

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    This is why I have to be careful with my attitude on this.

    My sister and only sibling was diagnosed with breast cancer in her early forties. It was a caught very early and was a very slow growing variety. Basically, the prognosis was, if you treat it you will die of something else. Unfortunately my sister was a part of the name-it-and-claim-it crowd. She believed that if she just believed enough God would heal her. She refused treatment claiming that God had told her He was going to heal her... further she was not to go back to the Doctors until she was healed. She died ravished by her cancer and in great pain. She left behind three kids, one in college and two still in high school. Even on my last visit with her she would not let me or my mom say goodbye because she still clung to the belief that God was about to heal her. (Don't get me started on people that say stupid justifying things like... "He did, she's in heaven" that is much more hurtful than people realize)

    Fundamentally my sister died of bad theology. It is a struggle to even be civil to these sorts of preachers. I can't imagine what that Doctor thinks of Christians.
    This happened two weeks ago here. There was a lady in my church who had an aggressive form of cancer. Early she encouraged everyone to pray that God would heal her. She and her husband even did not tell her kids what was happening because God was going to heal her. She eventually found a group who did just that, and she drifted to one of the big mega-churches near me. Well, two weeks ago, she died at age 42 with a 14 and 11 yr old left behind. The mega church hosted her funeral. Although she and her husband became very close friends with my Associate, and they asked him to do the eulogy.

    The mega-church pastor opened the service by saying "Before we are even born God has appointed to us a day to die, and last Tuesday was the day for Sherri." He then looked at her husband and kids and said, "I want you to know that your wife and mother is with Jesus, and we can rest assured that her death was part of God's perfect plan. While we mourn over her body, Sherri's soul is with jesus in heaven." (Yes, he went full Gnostic.) I was seething. I was busy scribbling notes for my letter to the family, and my wife was digging her nails into my leg to keep me from jumping up and saying something.

    Then my former associate - Danny Taylor rose to speak and said the following. "We have grown accustomed to death. It is just a part of life. We expect to grow up, get married, raise a family, eventually grow old and die. That is the pattern for life. And when that pattern is broken, like it is today, we sense something is wrong. When a mother leaves us too early, we are sad, we shed tears, and we are angry. We are rightfully angry. We are angry because this is not right. It is not right because death is unacceptable. Death is unacceptable. Truth be told, death was not is not, nor will it ever be part of God's plan. Sherri died because cancer invaded. Sherri died because we live in a world that is still awaiting its full redemption. Yet the promise of redemption is why we have hope. We have hope because we are who are alive will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. We have hope because what was sown, or buried perishable will be raised imperishable. You can have hope not because your mom's soul has gone somewhere, but because she will walk, run, breathe, and hug you again. We have hope because the days of cancer are numbered, as are the days of anything that degrades and destroys.

    You see, if God's pan had its way, Sherri would still be alive. Why? Because the full expression of God's kingdom says death is unacceptable. Behold there is no longer death or mourning, crying or pain, for the old order is passing away. Look I am making all things new. We have hope because we serve the God that makes all things new, not the God that plans death." I wish every Nazarene could have been there. This large mega church, and in walks a young pastor in his 30s and preaches an eschatological tour de force. It was perfect. I wept tears of hope and joy. When I hear about Dan Bohi - I also weep, but for different reasons.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    This is a real issue, but there is another dangerous and corrosive theological issue that undergirds this part of the church as well. If you have "faith" God will perform some miraculous sign, or healing. God wants us to be whole and healthy. Then when a mom gets cancer, well, you have communicated dangerous ideas that always lead to people falling away from the faith. Why? Because God let my mom die.
    Dear Lord, preach it brother. Preach it loudly from the mountaintops
    Thanks David Graham - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Dale Schaeffer's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Agreed, but having heard Dan fairly recently he steered very clear of "name it and claim it" faith healing. He made it clear that God does not always heal and that healing is not tied to the faith of a person but to the power of God. I have been concerned about Dan's teaching and lack of accountability, so when he was recently in our town I made sure to attend multiple nights of his teaching. I found him to be 90% in alignment with Nazarene doctrine. I expressed my concerns to him following the message and he was more than receptive to the conversation. We also had a woman in our church with stage 3 cancer in her kidneys who was found to be cancer free a few days following being prayed for during one of the services. I'm not sure what to make of all of it, but I'm much less critical of Dan and his ministry than I was following the M-11 event of a few years ago.

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    If you haven't seen the new issue of Holiness Today, there is an article by Shannon Greene on this topic, as well as a Q&A with Stan Ingersol on in what ways we have "pentecostal" roots and in what ways we do not. Really great issue to a really relevant topic.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Yep this is the real issue.
    According to the podcast, he seems to have good accountability. Great interview. The podcast with Cory Jones was also really good!

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    According to the podcast, he seems to have good accountability.
    What accountability is that? Is he an elder, for example?
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    According to the podcast, he seems to have good accountability. Great interview. The podcast with Cory Jones was also really good!
    What I mean is that if he is to have such influence in the CotN and, presumably, with its leaders who are all called to denominational accountability through ordination as elder or deacon. He says he won't do that and when he says no to that, he has rejected accountability which is why he is allowed to stray outside of our theology and doctrine without repercussions because we seem to check our theological and doctrinal integrity at the door when we think we will get "results".
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    What accountability is that? Is he an elder, for example?
    Nope he has rejected any course toward ordination (AKA that thing the rest who are called to preach in the CotN did) but he evokes an emotional response so who cares? Quit asking so many pesky questions!!
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Laughing Tim Troxler, Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Schaeffer View Post
    Agreed, but having heard Dan fairly recently he steered very clear of "name it and claim it" faith healing. He made it clear that God does not always heal and that healing is not tied to the faith of a person but to the power of God. I have been concerned about Dan's teaching and lack of accountability, so when he was recently in our town I made sure to attend multiple nights of his teaching. I found him to be 90% in alignment with Nazarene doctrine. I expressed my concerns to him following the message and he was more than receptive to the conversation. We also had a woman in our church with stage 3 cancer in her kidneys who was found to be cancer free a few days following being prayed for during one of the services. I'm not sure what to make of all of it, but I'm much less critical of Dan and his ministry than I was following the M-11 event of a few years ago.
    I'm glad to hear he has dropped the name it and claim it theology. So I wonder why he still will not submit to ordination?
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    Senior Member Marsha Lynn's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    I'm glad to hear he has dropped the name it and claim it theology. So I wonder why he still will not submit to ordination?
    I, of course, can't answer the "why not" question for another person, but there is a lot of ground to be gained by portraying oneself as a fresh, independent voice, free from the influence and control of the powers that be. From what I've heard, he is making himself the champion of the common people who are disdained by those with position and/or education. He would be selling out by pursuing any level of education or position.

    There has always been power in the words, "You won't hear this hidden truth I'm about to reveal from the so-called experts." When you add a claim that this hidden truth comes straight from the Word of God, you have something highly marketable. Why give it up?
    Only the power of the Holy Spirit can get truth past the obvious.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsha Lynn View Post
    I, of course, can't answer the "why not" question for another person, but there is a lot of ground to be gained by portraying oneself as a fresh, independent voice, free from the influence and control of the powers that be. From what I've heard, he is making himself the champion of the common people who are disdained by those with position and/or education. He would be selling out by pursuing any level of education or position.

    There has always been power in the words, "You won't hear this hidden truth I'm about to reveal from the so-called experts." When you add a claim that this hidden truth comes straight from the Word of God, you have something highly marketable. Why give it up?
    Sounds like he should run for President!
    Laughing Craig Laughlin, Lucas Finch, Marsha Lynn, Tim Troxler - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Sounds like he should run for President!
    I once would have laughed at this.....but since I now know that this nonsense actually CAN get someone elected president, I'm just going to back away.......slowly
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Sounds like he should run for President!
    Haha, yes, as I was reading Marsha's description, I was thinking, "He sounds like a populist."
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsha Lynn View Post
    I, of course, can't answer the "why not" question for another person, but there is a lot of ground to be gained by portraying oneself as a fresh, independent voice, free from the influence and control of the powers that be. From what I've heard, he is making himself the champion of the common people who are disdained by those with position and/or education. He would be selling out by pursuing any level of education or position.

    There has always been power in the words, "You won't hear this hidden truth I'm about to reveal from the so-called experts." When you add a claim that this hidden truth comes straight from the Word of God, you have something highly marketable. Why give it up?
    I haven't heard him since GA. If this is his claim then it is the height of hypocrisy. He is perfectly happy to use our congregations as an audience and take our money while biting the very hand that feeds him. Don't misunderstand, I'm perfectly fine with him critiquing the church but if one is going to do that (especially from the pulpit) they have a responsibility to know what they are talking about and that means education and accountability.

    I'm increasingly thinking he is pretty much a Neo-Gnostic, special Knowledge of God. (Pentecostals have always had this bent) Maybe he is more dangerous than I think.

    EDIT -- Reading through this it dawns on me that I don't criticise our church from the pulpit. The most I say is "we are family and like all families sometimes they drive me nuts."
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    What accountability is that? Is he an elder, for example?
    He listed who was on his board on the pod-cast. This entire discussion of accountability was talked about. As far as any "name-it, claim-it" word of faith stuff, I have seen him multiple times and had lunch with him and have never heard him use word of faith language.

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    He listed who was on his board on the pod-cast. This entire discussion of accountability was talked about. As far as any "name-it, claim-it" word of faith stuff, I have seen him multiple times and had lunch with him and have never heard him use word of faith language.

    Read the whole thread. This has been covered. When you are a preacher in the CotN, the accountability needs to extend beyond some of your buddies holding your accountable. We are talking about the denominational accountability (AKA Ordained Elder or Deacon) that the rest of us who have been called to preach in the CotN committed to. I can appreciate your experience with him. MINE which included a revival and a tent meeting was different and he certainly did use word of faith language.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Read the whole thread. This has been covered. When you are a preacher in the CotN, the accountability needs to extend beyond some of your buddies holding your accountable. We are talking about the denominational accountability (AKA Ordained Elder or Deacon) that the rest of us who have been called to preach in the CotN committed to. I can appreciate your experience with him. MINE which included a revival and a tent meeting was different and he certainly did use word of faith language.
    Thanks for the insight Cam (not sarcasm). Maybe (hopefully) his circle of accountability has helped him better understand his language. As far as the accountability, I get it. I understand where all of you are coming from, after all I am an ordained elder as well. I just don't see it the same as you guys and apparently many D.S.'s and G.S.'s don't either. Not that I am closed off to your side as well. Just not there right now.
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Thanks for the insight Cam (not sarcasm). Maybe (hopefully) his circle of accountability has helped him better understand his language. As far as the accountability, I get it. I understand where all of you are coming from, after all I am an ordained elder as well. I just don't see it the same as you guys and apparently many D.S.'s and G.S.'s don't either. Not that I am closed off to your side as well. Just not there right now.
    I can understand that and I'm not saying that having a group of people you are personally accountable to is nothing but we are talking about someone who says they have call to preach in the CotN. If we do have DS's and GS's that support this then they might as well throw the manual in the trash.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Thanks for the insight Cam (not sarcasm). Maybe (hopefully) his circle of accountability has helped him better understand his language. As far as the accountability, I get it. I understand where all of you are coming from, after all I am an ordained elder as well. I just don't see it the same as you guys and apparently many D.S.'s and G.S.'s don't either. Not that I am closed off to your side as well. Just not there right now.
    So I'm wondering what this means? I've been on credentials boards a long time and over the years run into a number of folks in interviews that thought we should not be questioning them so closely and requiring so much of them. Often they were among the most talented people. Should we give up ordiation? Just go with whoever expresses a call can preach? What is the deciding factor? And who decides ? Are we saying that our preachers can choose the people to whom they are accountable? If they don't like what those folks say can they change them until they get the answers they want?

    Of course in the Church of the Nazarene we already answered these questions. Honestly, next time someone asks me why they have to jump through all the hoops should I tell them it is because they are not famous enough to ignore the rules?
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I can understand that and I'm not saying that having a group of people you are personally accountable to is nothing but we are talking about someone who says they have call to preach in the CotN. If we do have DS's and GS's that support this then they might as well throw the manual in the trash.
    Yep, if they participate in this they have no credibility for holding anyone else to the manual.
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    So I'm wondering what this means? I've been on credentials boards a long time and over the years run into a number of folks in interviews that thought we should not be questioning them so closely and requiring so much of them. Often they were among the most talented people. Should we give up ordiation? Just go with whoever expresses a call can preach? What is the deciding factor? And who decides ? Are we saying that our preachers can choose the people to whom they are accountable? If they don't like what those folks say can they change them until they get the answers they want?

    Of course in the Church of the Nazarene we already answered these questions. Honestly, next time someone asks me why they have to jump through all the hoops should I tell them it is because they are not famous enough to ignore the rules?
    But he is not a Pastor. He does not the Shepherd of a flock. He is an invited speaker who stakes no claim in anything but being a layperson with a message (at least that I have ever heard). Again, I'm not saying that I'm totally opposed to what you are saying. But if I am going by what you are saying, then apparently I should never allow anyone in my pulpit who is not an ordained elder in the COtN. Don't mis-hear me. I take that very seriously and would not just allow anyone to preach in my place. But I also would not close that off to someone simply based on the Ordination factor. Dan is a speaker who speaks in many different denominations who just happens to call himself a Nazarene (at least from my perspective). Just like Cory Jones has had speakers from IHOP at his prayer conferences. Just like I would have any number of my close friends preach for me if they happened to be in town. Some of whom you would not totally agree with their theology on.

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    But he is not a Pastor. He does not the Shepherd of a flock. He is an invited speaker who stakes no claim in anything but being a layperson with a message (at least that I have ever heard). Again, I'm not saying that I'm totally opposed to what you are saying. But if I am going by what you are saying, then apparently I should never allow anyone in my pulpit who is not an ordained elder in the COtN. Don't mis-hear me. I take that very seriously and would not just allow anyone to preach in my place. But I also would not close that off to someone simply based on the Ordination factor. Dan is a speaker who speaks in many different denominations who just happens to call himself a Nazarene (at least from my perspective). Just like Cory Jones has had speakers from IHOP at his prayer conferences. Just like I would have any number of my close friends preach for me if they happened to be in town. Some of whom you would not totally agree with their theology on.
    Wow, I have so many thoughts flowing through my head after reading this. I know you don't mean it this way, but to me it sounds arrogant if folks choose their own friends or popular non-Nazarene speakers to preach, over the vast array of those who have been called and equipped by the global church of the Nazarene. I can only imagine what it must feel like for the many who have spent countless hours in preparation for preaching ministry in our denomination, only to be looked over for others from other faith traditions. Practices like this explain the growing disconnect in theology between our clergy and laity - our clergy are overlooked. I'm truly scratching my head why we place such an emphasis on being in full harmony with our doctrine, and then give the pulpit away to those who neither agree with nor know what our theology is.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Wow, I have so many thoughts flowing through my head after reading this. I know you don't mean it this way, but to me it sounds arrogant if folks choose their own friends or popular non-Nazarene speakers to preach, over the vast array of those who have been called and equipped by the global church of the Nazarene. I can only imagine what it must feel like for the many who have spent countless hours in preparation for preaching ministry in our denomination, only to be looked over for others from other faith traditions. Practices like this explain the growing disconnect in theology between our clergy and laity - our clergy are overlooked. I'm truly scratching my head why we place such an emphasis on being in full harmony with our doctrine, and then give the pulpit away to those who neither agree with nor know what our theology is.
    I don't want to assume anything Tim so I will ask. Am I hearing you correctly in that you are saying that no one outside of an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene should ever be allowed to take a Nazarene pulpit as a guest speaker?

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    I don't want to assume anything Tim so I will ask. Am I hearing you correctly in that you are saying that no one outside of an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene should ever be allowed to take a Nazarene pulpit as a guest speaker?
    No, I am not saying that. There are always reasons to do that. I just don't like hearing how quickly we give away opportunities to those from other faith traditions.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    No, I am not saying that. There are always reasons to do that. I just don't like hearing how quickly we give away opportunities to those from other faith traditions.
    Well if that's the way I made it sound, I did not intent for it to come off like that. In fact, the last three times someone filled my pulpit, it was a retired elder in the COtN. My point was that if one of my good friends were in town for whatever reason (the ones whose theology I trust), I would most likely invite them to speak and not close the opportunity off simply because they are not ordained as a Nazarene.
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Is it my understanding that Dan has no formal theological education of any kind? I would hope that if we are giving someone such a prominent platform to preach, they would have some sort of training in what we believe. This isn't a lay person giving a sermon on occasion in the local church, but an evangelist going from church to church. The disciples were trained for three years under Jesus, Paul was an educated man. Why should we expect less from someone given such a large platform?
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