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Thread: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

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    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I haven't heard his name in a while, and I wonder if that has played itself out.

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    No. His mantle has been taken up by several others. I suspect you don't hear his name much because he is now part of a bigger group. Unfortunately, I predict you will see much more to come.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Ugh. Thanks for the heads up

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    This podcast is one of the centers of the pentecostal movement.
    Last edited by Eric Frey; January 24th, 2017 at 01:48 PM.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    This podcast is one of the centers of the pentecostal movement.
    Link doesn't work....

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Link doesn't work....
    Sorry. Not sure what happened. Craigs link is what I linked.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I think it depends on which district you are on. I think the pentecostal movement is an undeniable part of the history of the CotN so I don't know that it go anywhere any time soon and therefore that Dan Bohi will continue to be a household name at my local congregations. This is honestly one of those things that I have had to learn to be gracious about. Growing up and being baptized and confirmed in the Anglican tradition, I have always found beauty in High Church liturgy and always found low church traditions to be a bit flashy and showy and have seen too much outward sensationalism moments that appear to be more biological than spiritual. Still I have close Nazarene friends that swear by it and I don't think they are unreasonable or less than genuine people. I think the idea of a person with this much influence and so little accountability in our denomination is dangerous however this can't be the first time that a denomination gives a pass to someone who says all the "right things", right? Right?
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Sorry. Not sure what happened. Craigs link is what I linked.
    Your link was missing a colon. That can be fixed, if you have enough faith.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I think the idea of a person with this much influence and so little accountability in our denomination is dangerous...
    Yep this is the real issue.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I think it depends on which district you are on. I think the pentecostal movement is an undeniable part of the history of the CotN so I don't know that it go anywhere any time soon and therefore that Dan Bohi will continue to be a household name at my local congregations. This is honestly one of those things that I have had to learn to be gracious about. Growing up and being baptized and confirmed in the Anglican tradition, I have always found beauty in High Church liturgy and always found low church traditions to be a bit flashy and showy and have seen too much outward sensationalism moments that appear to be more biological than spiritual. Still I have close Nazarene friends that swear by it and I don't think they are unreasonable or less than genuine people. I think the idea of a person with this much influence and so little accountability in our denomination is dangerous however this can't be the first time that a denomination gives a pass to someone who says all the "right things", right? Right?
    This is a real issue, but there is another dangerous and corrosive theological issue that undergirds this part of the church as well. If you have "faith" God will perform some miraculous sign, or healing. God wants us to be whole and healthy. Then when a mom gets cancer, well, you have communicated dangerous ideas that always lead to people falling away from the faith. Why? Because God let my mom die.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Your link was missing a colon. That can be fixed, if you have enough faith.
    Here ya go:

    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    This is a real issue, but there is another dangerous and corrosive theological issue that undergirds this part of the church as well. If you have "faith" God will perform some miraculous sign, or healing. God wants us to be whole and healthy. Then when a mom gets cancer, well, you have communicated dangerous ideas that always lead to people falling away from the faith. Why? Because God let my mom die.
    This is why I have to be careful with my attitude on this.

    My sister and only sibling was diagnosed with breast cancer in her early forties. It was a caught very early and was a very slow growing variety. Basically, the prognosis was, if you treat it you will die of something else. Unfortunately my sister was a part of the name-it-and-claim-it crowd. She believed that if she just believed enough God would heal her. She refused treatment claiming that God had told her He was going to heal her... further she was not to go back to the Doctors until she was healed. She died ravished by her cancer and in great pain. She left behind three kids, one in college and two still in high school. Even on my last visit with her she would not let me or my mom say goodbye because she still clung to the belief that God was about to heal her. (Don't get me started on people that say stupid justifying things like... "He did, she's in heaven" that is much more hurtful than people realize)

    Fundamentally my sister died of bad theology. It is a struggle to even be civil to these sorts of preachers. I can't imagine what that Doctor thinks of Christians.
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    Senior Member Debi Peck's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    This is why I have to be careful with my attitude on this.

    My sister and only sibling was diagnosed with breast cancer in her early forties. It was a caught very early and was a very slow growing variety. Basically, the prognosis was, if you treat it you will die of something else. Unfortunately my sister was a part of the name-it-and-claim-it crowd. She believed that if she just believed enough God would heal her. She refused treatment claiming that God had told her He was going to heal her... further she was not to go back to the Doctors until she was healed. She died ravished by her cancer and in great pain. She left behind three kids, one in college and two still in high school. Even on my last visit with her she would not let me or my mom say goodbye because she still clung to the belief that God was about to heal her. (Don't get me started on people that say stupid justifying things like... "He did, she's in heaven" that is much more hurtful than people realize)

    Fundamentally my sister died of bad theology. It is a struggle to even be civil to these sorts of preachers. I can't imagine what that Doctor thinks of Christians.
    I join you in your sentiment. I lost two aunts to almost this exact scenario. <<<<HUGS>>>>

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    This is why I have to be careful with my attitude on this.

    My sister and only sibling was diagnosed with breast cancer in her early forties. It was a caught very early and was a very slow growing variety. Basically, the prognosis was, if you treat it you will die of something else. Unfortunately my sister was a part of the name-it-and-claim-it crowd. She believed that if she just believed enough God would heal her. She refused treatment claiming that God had told her He was going to heal her... further she was not to go back to the Doctors until she was healed. She died ravished by her cancer and in great pain. She left behind three kids, one in college and two still in high school. Even on my last visit with her she would not let me or my mom say goodbye because she still clung to the belief that God was about to heal her. (Don't get me started on people that say stupid justifying things like... "He did, she's in heaven" that is much more hurtful than people realize)

    Fundamentally my sister died of bad theology. It is a struggle to even be civil to these sorts of preachers. I can't imagine what that Doctor thinks of Christians.
    This happened two weeks ago here. There was a lady in my church who had an aggressive form of cancer. Early she encouraged everyone to pray that God would heal her. She and her husband even did not tell her kids what was happening because God was going to heal her. She eventually found a group who did just that, and she drifted to one of the big mega-churches near me. Well, two weeks ago, she died at age 42 with a 14 and 11 yr old left behind. The mega church hosted her funeral. Although she and her husband became very close friends with my Associate, and they asked him to do the eulogy.

    The mega-church pastor opened the service by saying "Before we are even born God has appointed to us a day to die, and last Tuesday was the day for Sherri." He then looked at her husband and kids and said, "I want you to know that your wife and mother is with Jesus, and we can rest assured that her death was part of God's perfect plan. While we mourn over her body, Sherri's soul is with jesus in heaven." (Yes, he went full Gnostic.) I was seething. I was busy scribbling notes for my letter to the family, and my wife was digging her nails into my leg to keep me from jumping up and saying something.

    Then my former associate - Danny Taylor rose to speak and said the following. "We have grown accustomed to death. It is just a part of life. We expect to grow up, get married, raise a family, eventually grow old and die. That is the pattern for life. And when that pattern is broken, like it is today, we sense something is wrong. When a mother leaves us too early, we are sad, we shed tears, and we are angry. We are rightfully angry. We are angry because this is not right. It is not right because death is unacceptable. Death is unacceptable. Truth be told, death was not is not, nor will it ever be part of God's plan. Sherri died because cancer invaded. Sherri died because we live in a world that is still awaiting its full redemption. Yet the promise of redemption is why we have hope. We have hope because we are who are alive will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. We have hope because what was sown, or buried perishable will be raised imperishable. You can have hope not because your mom's soul has gone somewhere, but because she will walk, run, breathe, and hug you again. We have hope because the days of cancer are numbered, as are the days of anything that degrades and destroys.

    You see, if God's pan had its way, Sherri would still be alive. Why? Because the full expression of God's kingdom says death is unacceptable. Behold there is no longer death or mourning, crying or pain, for the old order is passing away. Look I am making all things new. We have hope because we serve the God that makes all things new, not the God that plans death." I wish every Nazarene could have been there. This large mega church, and in walks a young pastor in his 30s and preaches an eschatological tour de force. It was perfect. I wept tears of hope and joy. When I hear about Dan Bohi - I also weep, but for different reasons.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    This is a real issue, but there is another dangerous and corrosive theological issue that undergirds this part of the church as well. If you have "faith" God will perform some miraculous sign, or healing. God wants us to be whole and healthy. Then when a mom gets cancer, well, you have communicated dangerous ideas that always lead to people falling away from the faith. Why? Because God let my mom die.
    Dear Lord, preach it brother. Preach it loudly from the mountaintops
    Thanks David Graham - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Dale Schaeffer's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Agreed, but having heard Dan fairly recently he steered very clear of "name it and claim it" faith healing. He made it clear that God does not always heal and that healing is not tied to the faith of a person but to the power of God. I have been concerned about Dan's teaching and lack of accountability, so when he was recently in our town I made sure to attend multiple nights of his teaching. I found him to be 90% in alignment with Nazarene doctrine. I expressed my concerns to him following the message and he was more than receptive to the conversation. We also had a woman in our church with stage 3 cancer in her kidneys who was found to be cancer free a few days following being prayed for during one of the services. I'm not sure what to make of all of it, but I'm much less critical of Dan and his ministry than I was following the M-11 event of a few years ago.

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    If you haven't seen the new issue of Holiness Today, there is an article by Shannon Greene on this topic, as well as a Q&A with Stan Ingersol on in what ways we have "pentecostal" roots and in what ways we do not. Really great issue to a really relevant topic.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Yep this is the real issue.
    According to the podcast, he seems to have good accountability. Great interview. The podcast with Cory Jones was also really good!

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    According to the podcast, he seems to have good accountability.
    What accountability is that? Is he an elder, for example?
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Craig Laughlin - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    According to the podcast, he seems to have good accountability. Great interview. The podcast with Cory Jones was also really good!
    What I mean is that if he is to have such influence in the CotN and, presumably, with its leaders who are all called to denominational accountability through ordination as elder or deacon. He says he won't do that and when he says no to that, he has rejected accountability which is why he is allowed to stray outside of our theology and doctrine without repercussions because we seem to check our theological and doctrinal integrity at the door when we think we will get "results".
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, Mark Bolerjack - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    What accountability is that? Is he an elder, for example?
    Nope he has rejected any course toward ordination (AKA that thing the rest who are called to preach in the CotN did) but he evokes an emotional response so who cares? Quit asking so many pesky questions!!
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Laughing Tim Troxler, Lucas Finch - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Schaeffer View Post
    Agreed, but having heard Dan fairly recently he steered very clear of "name it and claim it" faith healing. He made it clear that God does not always heal and that healing is not tied to the faith of a person but to the power of God. I have been concerned about Dan's teaching and lack of accountability, so when he was recently in our town I made sure to attend multiple nights of his teaching. I found him to be 90% in alignment with Nazarene doctrine. I expressed my concerns to him following the message and he was more than receptive to the conversation. We also had a woman in our church with stage 3 cancer in her kidneys who was found to be cancer free a few days following being prayed for during one of the services. I'm not sure what to make of all of it, but I'm much less critical of Dan and his ministry than I was following the M-11 event of a few years ago.
    I'm glad to hear he has dropped the name it and claim it theology. So I wonder why he still will not submit to ordination?
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    Senior Member Marsha Lynn's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    I'm glad to hear he has dropped the name it and claim it theology. So I wonder why he still will not submit to ordination?
    I, of course, can't answer the "why not" question for another person, but there is a lot of ground to be gained by portraying oneself as a fresh, independent voice, free from the influence and control of the powers that be. From what I've heard, he is making himself the champion of the common people who are disdained by those with position and/or education. He would be selling out by pursuing any level of education or position.

    There has always been power in the words, "You won't hear this hidden truth I'm about to reveal from the so-called experts." When you add a claim that this hidden truth comes straight from the Word of God, you have something highly marketable. Why give it up?
    Only the power of the Holy Spirit can get truth past the obvious.
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    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsha Lynn View Post
    I, of course, can't answer the "why not" question for another person, but there is a lot of ground to be gained by portraying oneself as a fresh, independent voice, free from the influence and control of the powers that be. From what I've heard, he is making himself the champion of the common people who are disdained by those with position and/or education. He would be selling out by pursuing any level of education or position.

    There has always been power in the words, "You won't hear this hidden truth I'm about to reveal from the so-called experts." When you add a claim that this hidden truth comes straight from the Word of God, you have something highly marketable. Why give it up?
    Sounds like he should run for President!
    Laughing Craig Laughlin, Lucas Finch, Marsha Lynn, Tim Troxler - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Sounds like he should run for President!
    I once would have laughed at this.....but since I now know that this nonsense actually CAN get someone elected president, I'm just going to back away.......slowly
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Sounds like he should run for President!
    Haha, yes, as I was reading Marsha's description, I was thinking, "He sounds like a populist."
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsha Lynn View Post
    I, of course, can't answer the "why not" question for another person, but there is a lot of ground to be gained by portraying oneself as a fresh, independent voice, free from the influence and control of the powers that be. From what I've heard, he is making himself the champion of the common people who are disdained by those with position and/or education. He would be selling out by pursuing any level of education or position.

    There has always been power in the words, "You won't hear this hidden truth I'm about to reveal from the so-called experts." When you add a claim that this hidden truth comes straight from the Word of God, you have something highly marketable. Why give it up?
    I haven't heard him since GA. If this is his claim then it is the height of hypocrisy. He is perfectly happy to use our congregations as an audience and take our money while biting the very hand that feeds him. Don't misunderstand, I'm perfectly fine with him critiquing the church but if one is going to do that (especially from the pulpit) they have a responsibility to know what they are talking about and that means education and accountability.

    I'm increasingly thinking he is pretty much a Neo-Gnostic, special Knowledge of God. (Pentecostals have always had this bent) Maybe he is more dangerous than I think.

    EDIT -- Reading through this it dawns on me that I don't criticise our church from the pulpit. The most I say is "we are family and like all families sometimes they drive me nuts."
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    What accountability is that? Is he an elder, for example?
    He listed who was on his board on the pod-cast. This entire discussion of accountability was talked about. As far as any "name-it, claim-it" word of faith stuff, I have seen him multiple times and had lunch with him and have never heard him use word of faith language.

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    He listed who was on his board on the pod-cast. This entire discussion of accountability was talked about. As far as any "name-it, claim-it" word of faith stuff, I have seen him multiple times and had lunch with him and have never heard him use word of faith language.

    Read the whole thread. This has been covered. When you are a preacher in the CotN, the accountability needs to extend beyond some of your buddies holding your accountable. We are talking about the denominational accountability (AKA Ordained Elder or Deacon) that the rest of us who have been called to preach in the CotN committed to. I can appreciate your experience with him. MINE which included a revival and a tent meeting was different and he certainly did use word of faith language.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Read the whole thread. This has been covered. When you are a preacher in the CotN, the accountability needs to extend beyond some of your buddies holding your accountable. We are talking about the denominational accountability (AKA Ordained Elder or Deacon) that the rest of us who have been called to preach in the CotN committed to. I can appreciate your experience with him. MINE which included a revival and a tent meeting was different and he certainly did use word of faith language.
    Thanks for the insight Cam (not sarcasm). Maybe (hopefully) his circle of accountability has helped him better understand his language. As far as the accountability, I get it. I understand where all of you are coming from, after all I am an ordained elder as well. I just don't see it the same as you guys and apparently many D.S.'s and G.S.'s don't either. Not that I am closed off to your side as well. Just not there right now.
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Thanks for the insight Cam (not sarcasm). Maybe (hopefully) his circle of accountability has helped him better understand his language. As far as the accountability, I get it. I understand where all of you are coming from, after all I am an ordained elder as well. I just don't see it the same as you guys and apparently many D.S.'s and G.S.'s don't either. Not that I am closed off to your side as well. Just not there right now.
    I can understand that and I'm not saying that having a group of people you are personally accountable to is nothing but we are talking about someone who says they have call to preach in the CotN. If we do have DS's and GS's that support this then they might as well throw the manual in the trash.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Thanks for the insight Cam (not sarcasm). Maybe (hopefully) his circle of accountability has helped him better understand his language. As far as the accountability, I get it. I understand where all of you are coming from, after all I am an ordained elder as well. I just don't see it the same as you guys and apparently many D.S.'s and G.S.'s don't either. Not that I am closed off to your side as well. Just not there right now.
    So I'm wondering what this means? I've been on credentials boards a long time and over the years run into a number of folks in interviews that thought we should not be questioning them so closely and requiring so much of them. Often they were among the most talented people. Should we give up ordiation? Just go with whoever expresses a call can preach? What is the deciding factor? And who decides ? Are we saying that our preachers can choose the people to whom they are accountable? If they don't like what those folks say can they change them until they get the answers they want?

    Of course in the Church of the Nazarene we already answered these questions. Honestly, next time someone asks me why they have to jump through all the hoops should I tell them it is because they are not famous enough to ignore the rules?
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I can understand that and I'm not saying that having a group of people you are personally accountable to is nothing but we are talking about someone who says they have call to preach in the CotN. If we do have DS's and GS's that support this then they might as well throw the manual in the trash.
    Yep, if they participate in this they have no credibility for holding anyone else to the manual.
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    So I'm wondering what this means? I've been on credentials boards a long time and over the years run into a number of folks in interviews that thought we should not be questioning them so closely and requiring so much of them. Often they were among the most talented people. Should we give up ordiation? Just go with whoever expresses a call can preach? What is the deciding factor? And who decides ? Are we saying that our preachers can choose the people to whom they are accountable? If they don't like what those folks say can they change them until they get the answers they want?

    Of course in the Church of the Nazarene we already answered these questions. Honestly, next time someone asks me why they have to jump through all the hoops should I tell them it is because they are not famous enough to ignore the rules?
    But he is not a Pastor. He does not the Shepherd of a flock. He is an invited speaker who stakes no claim in anything but being a layperson with a message (at least that I have ever heard). Again, I'm not saying that I'm totally opposed to what you are saying. But if I am going by what you are saying, then apparently I should never allow anyone in my pulpit who is not an ordained elder in the COtN. Don't mis-hear me. I take that very seriously and would not just allow anyone to preach in my place. But I also would not close that off to someone simply based on the Ordination factor. Dan is a speaker who speaks in many different denominations who just happens to call himself a Nazarene (at least from my perspective). Just like Cory Jones has had speakers from IHOP at his prayer conferences. Just like I would have any number of my close friends preach for me if they happened to be in town. Some of whom you would not totally agree with their theology on.

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    But he is not a Pastor. He does not the Shepherd of a flock. He is an invited speaker who stakes no claim in anything but being a layperson with a message (at least that I have ever heard). Again, I'm not saying that I'm totally opposed to what you are saying. But if I am going by what you are saying, then apparently I should never allow anyone in my pulpit who is not an ordained elder in the COtN. Don't mis-hear me. I take that very seriously and would not just allow anyone to preach in my place. But I also would not close that off to someone simply based on the Ordination factor. Dan is a speaker who speaks in many different denominations who just happens to call himself a Nazarene (at least from my perspective). Just like Cory Jones has had speakers from IHOP at his prayer conferences. Just like I would have any number of my close friends preach for me if they happened to be in town. Some of whom you would not totally agree with their theology on.
    Wow, I have so many thoughts flowing through my head after reading this. I know you don't mean it this way, but to me it sounds arrogant if folks choose their own friends or popular non-Nazarene speakers to preach, over the vast array of those who have been called and equipped by the global church of the Nazarene. I can only imagine what it must feel like for the many who have spent countless hours in preparation for preaching ministry in our denomination, only to be looked over for others from other faith traditions. Practices like this explain the growing disconnect in theology between our clergy and laity - our clergy are overlooked. I'm truly scratching my head why we place such an emphasis on being in full harmony with our doctrine, and then give the pulpit away to those who neither agree with nor know what our theology is.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Wow, I have so many thoughts flowing through my head after reading this. I know you don't mean it this way, but to me it sounds arrogant if folks choose their own friends or popular non-Nazarene speakers to preach, over the vast array of those who have been called and equipped by the global church of the Nazarene. I can only imagine what it must feel like for the many who have spent countless hours in preparation for preaching ministry in our denomination, only to be looked over for others from other faith traditions. Practices like this explain the growing disconnect in theology between our clergy and laity - our clergy are overlooked. I'm truly scratching my head why we place such an emphasis on being in full harmony with our doctrine, and then give the pulpit away to those who neither agree with nor know what our theology is.
    I don't want to assume anything Tim so I will ask. Am I hearing you correctly in that you are saying that no one outside of an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene should ever be allowed to take a Nazarene pulpit as a guest speaker?

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    I don't want to assume anything Tim so I will ask. Am I hearing you correctly in that you are saying that no one outside of an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene should ever be allowed to take a Nazarene pulpit as a guest speaker?
    No, I am not saying that. There are always reasons to do that. I just don't like hearing how quickly we give away opportunities to those from other faith traditions.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    No, I am not saying that. There are always reasons to do that. I just don't like hearing how quickly we give away opportunities to those from other faith traditions.
    Well if that's the way I made it sound, I did not intent for it to come off like that. In fact, the last three times someone filled my pulpit, it was a retired elder in the COtN. My point was that if one of my good friends were in town for whatever reason (the ones whose theology I trust), I would most likely invite them to speak and not close the opportunity off simply because they are not ordained as a Nazarene.
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    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Is it my understanding that Dan has no formal theological education of any kind? I would hope that if we are giving someone such a prominent platform to preach, they would have some sort of training in what we believe. This isn't a lay person giving a sermon on occasion in the local church, but an evangelist going from church to church. The disciples were trained for three years under Jesus, Paul was an educated man. Why should we expect less from someone given such a large platform?
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    But he is not a Pastor. He does not the Shepherd of a flock. He is an invited speaker...
    How is this different from an evangelist who has to be credentialed? Is he being paid? Is he making his living at this... It is disingenuous, bordering on fraudulent, to claim he is just a layperson when he is making his living preaching. Can't have it both ways. He wants to claim the authority of clergy (teachers) but rejects the responsibility. That alone makes a preacher suspect. Submitting to authority is an important part of our spiritual discipline. It is one of the ways we reflect Christ by submitting to those placed in authority over us. Dan rejects this Biblical teaching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    who stakes no claim in anything but being a layperson with a message (at least that I have ever heard). Again, I'm not saying that I'm totally opposed to what you are saying. But if I am going by what you are saying, then apparently I should never allow anyone in my pulpit who is not an ordained elder in the COtN.
    Not what I said. First it should be extraordinarily rare for someone not under authority to preach and teach theology. Sharing about missions, a local ministry or some other action oriented service is not the same. My understanding is that he is making his living doing this full time. We should not compare him to the good lay people that work up their nerve to stand in front of a church and tell them about God is doing for Africa. (Had one recently do that in my church, all the money went to put roofs on churches in Africa and they insisted on paying their own expenses for travel. - I put them up at my house for the night) They didn't teach theology. They presented an opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Don't mis-hear me. I take that very seriously and would not just allow anyone to preach in my place. But I also would not close that off to someone simply based on the Ordination factor. Dan is a speaker who speaks in many different denominations who just happens to call himself a Nazarene (at least from my perspective). Just like Cory Jones has had speakers from IHOP at his prayer conferences. Just like I would have any number of my close friends preach for me if they happened to be in town. Some of whom you would not totally agree with their theology on.
    ANYONE preaching for a living or teaching for a living, that is they have authority to teach, should be under authority and undergo formal training. That folks would put these people in their pulpit is on them but as a denomination it should not be. -- Wonder why we have so much goofy theology in the United States? This is it.
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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Well if that's the way I made it sound, I did not intent for it to come off like that. In fact, the last three times someone filled my pulpit, it was a retired elder in the COtN. My point was that if one of my good friends were in town for whatever reason (the ones whose theology I trust), I would most likely invite them to speak and not close the opportunity off simply because they are not ordained as a Nazarene.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    But he is not a Pastor. He does not the Shepherd of a flock. He is an invited speaker who stakes no claim in anything but being a layperson with a message (at least that I have ever heard). Again, I'm not saying that I'm totally opposed to what you are saying. But if I am going by what you are saying, then apparently I should never allow anyone in my pulpit who is not an ordained elder in the COtN. Don't mis-hear me. I take that very seriously and would not just allow anyone to preach in my place. But I also would not close that off to someone simply based on the Ordination factor. Dan is a speaker who speaks in many different denominations who just happens to call himself a Nazarene (at least from my perspective). Just like Cory Jones has had speakers from IHOP at his prayer conferences. Just like I would have any number of my close friends preach for me if they happened to be in town. Some of whom you would not totally agree with their theology on.
    2 points. If he is unwilling to submit himself to the proper boards, then why label himself a Nazarene? Part of the credentialing process is oversight as to what the word and practice of Nazarene means.

    The second is the larger point. At M11, pastors and DSes went down and had Dan lay hands on them. This is an ecclesiastical nightmare. I do not think we can begin to understand the damage this did, and continues to do. The NT, and 2000 years of church history pay special attention to apostolic authority. Let's not be in a rush to throw it out of the window. Let's pretend that Dan falls off the orthodoxy highway (or fall further off), how exactly does the church address that? He is not credentialed. He has not sat before a board. And leaders have submitted to this wild-card process. And why can't I hand-pick a few people and then claim I have accountability?
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Farra View Post
    Is it my understanding that Dan has no formal theological education of any kind? I would hope that if we are giving someone such a prominent platform to preach, they would have some sort of training in what we believe. This isn't a lay person giving a sermon on occasion in the local church, but an evangelist going from church to church. The disciples were trained for three years under Jesus, Paul was an educated man. Why should we expect less from someone given such a large platform?

    I think you forget that there is an ever growing piece of Nazdom that sees formal education as a bad thing. Bunch of liberal smarty pants squelching the Spirit with their books and Article IV's and their Wesleyan hoopla and their.....
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I think you forget that there is an ever growing piece of Nazdom that sees formal education as a bad thing. Bunch of liberal smarty pants squelching the Spirit with their books and Article IV's and their Wesleyan hoopla and their.....
    The brain gets in the way of the heart. Who needs formal textual criticism when we can see the bible's clear meaning right in front of us? smh
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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    Assistant Site Administrator/Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    But he is not a Pastor. He does not the Shepherd of a flock. He is an invited speaker who stakes no claim in anything but being a layperson with a message (at least that I have ever heard).
    He's not a "guest speaker." He's an evangelist... he's a preacher. He makes his living preaching full time around the country - primarily in Churches of the Nazarene.
    God is really good.
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    Senior Member Greg Farra's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I think you forget that there is an ever growing piece of Nazdom that sees formal education as a bad thing. Bunch of liberal smarty pants squelching the Spirit with their books and Article IV's and their Wesleyan hoopla and their.....
    Yeah, I get you. But people seem to want their doctor, lawyer, accountant as educated as possible. But not their pastor. Then they get mad when you tell them Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, and John Hagee are off base in comparison with our theological heritage. A bit strange, isn't it?
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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    I think the idea of a person with this much influence and so little accountability in our denomination is dangerous however this can't be the first time that a denomination gives a pass to someone who says all the "right things", right? Right?
    Dan has demonstrated a history of not being accountable.
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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    If you haven't seen the new issue of Holiness Today, there is an article by Shannon Greene on this topic, as well as a Q&A with Stan Ingersol on in what ways we have "pentecostal" roots and in what ways we do not. Really great issue to a really relevant topic.
    Is this the article you are referring to? It doesn't mention names. However, Dan and his team immediately came to mind when I read it.

    The Dangers of Experience
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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Richardson View Post
    I haven't heard his name in a while, and I wonder if that has played itself out.
    Dan and his team are still going strong. However, I am thankful that he was turned down for 2017 by my home church.

    Recently, there was this conversation captured on facebook:

    https://www.facebook.com/WeAreNaz/posts/954060058039112

    I would say they are inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Is this the article you are referring to? It doesn't mention names. However, Dan and his team immediately came to mind when I read it.

    The Dangers of Experience
    This is a good article. What I tend to sense here though (and in so many of our Nazarene churches) is an unbalanced quadrilateral to the other extreme. The author says

    "Specifically, they long for an “experience” with the Holy Spirit: they want to “experience” the “skekinah glory,” they want to “experience” the manifest presence of God; they want to “experience” amazing acts of healing"

    So what is wrong with this as long as it doesn't become the focus of ones faith? Too many love the legs of reason and tradition, but refuse the experience based on what ever fear or hurt may have taken place in the past or base it off of the abuses that have occurred by some. Yes, it should not be worshiped and become unbalanced, but to deny the power of the Holy Spirit is also no better!
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Dan and his team are still going strong. However, I am thankful that he was turned down for 2017 by my home church.

    Recently, there was this conversation captured on facebook:

    https://www.facebook.com/WeAreNaz/posts/954060058039112

    I would say they are inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene.
    Another hater group like the others we all know about. I love the hypocrisy in the moderators comments when they say "The group is not affiliated with the Church of the Nazarene in any way" yet the title of the facebook page is "WE ARE NAZARENE." Typical...We all live under a big umbrella supposedly...until of course someone interprets scripture in a way that says that the power of the Holy Spirit is for us today. Yet how dare anyone question some beloved person who says that hell doesn't exist or that God can change his mind.

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Another hater group like the others we all know about. I love the hypocrisy in the moderators comments when they say "The group is not affiliated with the Church of the Nazarene in any way" yet the title of the facebook page is "WE ARE NAZARENE." Typical...We all live under a big umbrella supposedly...until of course someone interprets scripture in a way that says that the power of the Holy Spirit is for us today. Yet how dare anyone question some beloved person who says that hell doesn't exist or that God can change his mind.
    Jim, this seems like a typical response from those that are caught up in this movement. Attack the group while not addressing the actual message of the post. Why don't you respond by stating why you disagree with the idea that they are inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene?

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Another hater group like the others we all know about. I love the hypocrisy in the moderators comments when they say "The group is not affiliated with the Church of the Nazarene in any way" yet the title of the facebook page is "WE ARE NAZARENE." Typical...We all live under a big umbrella supposedly...until of course someone interprets scripture in a way that says that the power of the Holy Spirit is for us today. Yet how dare anyone question some beloved person who says that hell doesn't exist or that God can change his mind.
    I've never known an active Nazarene that did not believe that the power of the Holy Spirit was for us today.
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    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Jim, this seems like a typical response from those that are caught up in this movement. Attack the group while not addressing the actual message of the post. Why don't you respond by stating why you disagree with the idea that they are inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene?
    Not Jim here, but as an interested observer of this discussion (and a fellow member of Dan's at Olathe College Church), could I turn this question around just a bit?
    Would anyone here at Naznet give me specific examples of how he "is inveighing against the doctrine of the Church of the Nazarene"?

    I have seen Dan severely criticized for being overweight, for being a layman who preaches without being ordained, for being too emotional for some, etc., but don't see how any of those things are inveighing against Nazarene doctrine.

    What are the specific charges that should be raised against him?

    BILL
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Nope he has rejected any course toward ordination (AKA that thing the rest who are called to preach in the CotN did) but he evokes an emotional response so who cares? Quit asking so many pesky questions!!
    I'm taking bets on which happens first, Dan Bohi submitting to denominational accountability or Donald Trump releasing his tax returns.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Not Jim here, but as an interested observer of this discussion (and a fellow member of Dan's at Olathe College Church), could I turn this question around just a bit?
    Would anyone here at Naznet give me specific examples of how he "is inveighing against the doctrine of the Church of the Nazarene"?

    I have seen Dan severely criticized for being overweight, for being a layman who preaches without being ordained, for being too emotional for some, etc., but don't see how any of those things are inveighing against Nazarene doctrine.

    What are the specific charges that should be raised against him?

    BILL
    Thanks Bill..I had to leave the office so couldn't respond but yours was gonna be my response. Which specific article of faith has he gone against?
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    What are the specific charges that should be raised against him?

    BILL
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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    I'm taking bets on which happens first, Dan Bohi submitting to denominational accountability or Donald Trump releasing his tax returns.

    You didn't hear? Trumps people said no one really cares about that so that conversation is over. Keep up, Billy
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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    You didn't hear? Trumps people said no one really cares about that so that conversation is over. Keep up, Billy
    Yeah, but what about General Assembly? He is coming, right?
    -Jim

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Thanks Bill..I had to leave the office so couldn't respond but yours was gonna be my response. Which specific article of faith has he gone against?
    If it was only the articles of faith that mattered then why is the credentialing process so much more involved? Maybe there should just be a quiz:
    1. Name the 16 articles of faith.
    2. Do you have any problems with them?
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    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    If it was only the articles of faith that mattered then why is the credentialing process so much more involved? Maybe there should just be a quiz:
    1. Name the 16 articles of faith.
    2. Do you have any problems with them?
    Maybe it would be nice to have some of the elders on Naznet tell us laymen how to define "inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene".
    Is denying there is eternal punishment doing such? Is suggesting we need fewer GS"s? Is being overweight? Is allowing practicing homosexuals to be on the Church Board or teaching Sunday School? I'm pretty sure speaking in tongues is "inveighing against our doctrine", but how about being a member of the COTN , disliking the whole tongues phenomenon but refusing to say/believe that those who speak in tongues are bad/deluded people?

    I am sincerely curious: what doctrines are Dan's detractors accusing him of speaking against?

    (Disclosure: even though Dan and I belong to the same local church, I am not his friend. I did have his daughter as my student a few years ago: one of the best Biology students we have had at MNU. I dearly love his father-in-law, GS Emeritus Don Owens who was my president at MNU, his mother worked many years in the business office at MNU, I also know my pastor brother has had Dan at his church for several services..........but Dan, honestly I don't know if I have ever spoken with him and would be surprised if he could pick me out of a crowd).
    I have also listened to some of his messages (they are readily available on the Internet.) My general impression: I'm not real comfortable with the emotional stuff that happens in some of his services,and I would need to be in a particular mood to attend one. But I do appreciate his testimony and his call urging folks to go deeper with God, and the testimony of many that seem to have received help at his services that they haven't received before.

    I am aware that some intensely dislike my views as a YEC, but those views are not inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene (and neither is the view of theistic evolution that I used to hold, progressive creationism, or many other views. We Nazarenes do not specify what truth is in that area, other than affirming God is Creator.) So, is Dan like me: simply being harshly criticized by some in the church because they don't like his viewpoint/approach? If the criticism is mainly that he is not ordained and therefore should not be allowed in the pulpit, perhaps we should go after the preachers and DS's that support him?

    Just please, can anyone enlighten me as to what Nazarene doctrines he speaks against. And if he does, would some of you concerned elders please step forward and help put a stop to it?

    BILL
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Jim, this seems like a typical response from those that are caught up in this movement. Attack the group while not addressing the actual message of the post. Why don't you respond by stating why you disagree with the idea that they are inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene?
    First, not caught up in this movement so you are obviously talking to someone else. I haven't seen Dan B in at least three years. As far as the other question, as you have already seen, Bill beat me to the point so I'll leave it with his question.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    If it was only the articles of faith that mattered then why is the credentialing process so much more involved? Maybe there should just be a quiz:
    1. Name the 16 articles of faith.
    2. Do you have any problems with them?
    LOL...I'll mail you one of the copies of the manual that sit on my desk....and.....NO, I don't. I didn't when my GS laid hands on me to ordain me and don't know. If I ever were to, I'd surrender my credentials in the same way I think others should. Sorry to disappoint you.

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Yeah, but what about General Assembly? He is coming, right?
    I don't think GA is YUGE enough for him at this point
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  66. #66
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Maybe it would be nice to have some of the elders on Naznet tell us laymen how to define "inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene".
    Is denying there is eternal punishment doing such? Is suggesting we need fewer GS"s? Is being overweight? Is allowing practicing homosexuals to be on the Church Board or teaching Sunday School? I'm pretty sure speaking in tongues is "inveighing against our doctrine", but how about being a member of the COTN , disliking the whole tongues phenomenon but refusing to say/believe that those who speak in tongues are bad/deluded people?

    I am sincerely curious: what doctrines are Dan's detractors accusing him of speaking against?

    (Disclosure: even though Dan and I belong to the same local church, I am not his friend. I did have his daughter as my student a few years ago: one of the best Biology students we have had at MNU. I dearly love his father-in-law, GS Emeritus Don Owens who was my president at MNU, his mother worked many years in the business office at MNU, I also know my pastor brother has had Dan at his church for several services..........but Dan, honestly I don't know if I have ever spoken with him and would be surprised if he could pick me out of a crowd).
    I have also listened to some of his messages (they are readily available on the Internet.) My general impression: I'm not real comfortable with the emotional stuff that happens in some of his services,and I would need to be in a particular mood to attend one. But I do appreciate his testimony and his call urging folks to go deeper with God, and the testimony of many that seem to have received help at his services that they haven't received before.

    I am aware that some intensely dislike my views as a YEC, but those views are not inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene (and neither is the view of theistic evolution that I used to hold, progressive creationism, or many other views. We Nazarenes do not specify what truth is in that area, other than affirming God is Creator.) So, is Dan like me: simply being harshly criticized by some in the church because they don't like his viewpoint/approach? If the criticism is mainly that he is not ordained and therefore should not be allowed in the pulpit, perhaps we should go after the preachers and DS's that support him?

    Just please, can anyone enlighten me as to what Nazarene doctrines he speaks against. And if he does, would some of you concerned elders please step forward and help put a stop to it?

    BILL
    I think one of the websites used the "inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene" language. To be honest I had to look up the word Inveighing. I certainly haven't accused Dan of that and other than the website, which I suspect is from one of the fundamentalist groups known for their over the top rhetoric, I don't know anyone that has. In fact for myself and most of the clergy on this issue we are making a much more nuanced argument.

    Fundamentally we are saying we don't know what he believes because he refuse to submit to examination. I know of no other profession that would allow this. Medicine, Law, Accounting... all require extensive examination and what they handle is far less important than someones eternal soul. Dan and those that support him seem to be arguing... hey the people love me so I must be great, and because they love me I'm not going to submit to examination. Bottom line, we don't know what he is teaching or what he believes, we simply do not get to ask him questions that he has to answer directly.

    Further, the teaching of the church is more than our Articles of Faith. While there is not much required to join the church as a lay person there is a great deal more agreement required to preach from our pulpits. Just like you don't have to know much medicine to do first aid but if you want to do surgery we are going to require a lot more.
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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    For reference sake, "inveighing" is a term from the Manual.

    This particular reference is from the 2009 edition and is the 3rd point in the Covenant of Christian Character: "THIRD. By abiding in hearty fellowship with the church, not inveighing against but wholly committed to its doctrines and usages and actively involved in its continuing witness and outreach."

    (I didn't have the 2013 edition handy at the moment.)
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Fundamentally we are saying we don't know what he believes because he refuse to submit to examination. I know of no other profession that would allow this. Medicine, Law, Accounting... all require extensive examination and what they handle is far less important than someones eternal soul.
    LOL You mean you wouldn't allow a self-describe surgeon who travels from location to location to operate on you if he or she was not formally educated and properly credentialed, no matter how many books he or she had read or TV programs he or she had watched on the subject?

    Using that same analogy, though, calls to my mind the question of pulpit supply. I think that most people here would agree that it is ok for a layperson to periodically step into the pulpit, as long as he or she will be presenting a message compatible with our theology and doctrine. Certainly, it's usually favorable that a credentialed person do so, but that is not always practical at all locations. (Nor is it always favorable. A retired Nazarene elder that I know of comes to mind. Some of his ideas are . . . out there. For example, he has predicted the date of Jesus' Second Coming a few times.) So though I agree that the eternal matters that we deal with are significantly more important than the temporal matters of other professionals, the analogy is not without its weaknesses.

    I really know nothing of Bohi other than what I've read here, so I don't really have an informed opinion. Generally, I agree with most of the concerns that I've read here. I also, though, sometimes get concerned that what is said here can unintentionally give an "elitist" vibe. I would hope that we would be careful to avoid this. (No, Craig, I'm not specifically saying that you are doing that.)
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    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    For reference sake, "inveighing" is a term from the Manual.

    This particular reference is from the 2009 edition and is the 3rd point in the Covenant of Christian Character: "THIRD. By abiding in hearty fellowship with the church, not inveighing against but wholly committed to its doctrines and usages and actively involved in its continuing witness and outreach."

    (I didn't have the 2013 edition handy at the moment.)
    Thus "inveighing against...." is a no-no for the laity as well as the clergy.

    BILL

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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Thus "inveighing against...." is a no-no for the laity as well as the clergy.

    BILL
    Correct.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    LOL You mean you wouldn't allow a self-describe surgeon who travels from location to location to operate on you if he or she was not formally educated and properly credentialed, no matter how many books he or she had read or TV programs he or she had watched on the subject?
    I started to share a story about this from my growing up but decided it was to long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Using that same analogy, though, calls to my mind the question of pulpit supply. I think that most people here would agree that it is ok for a layperson to periodically step into the pulpit, as long as he or she will be presenting a message compatible with our theology and doctrine. Certainly, it's usually favorable that a credentialed person do so, but that is not always practical at all locations. (Nor is it always favorable. A retired Nazarene elder that I know of comes to mind. Some of his ideas are . . . out there. For example, he has predicted the date of Jesus' Second Coming a few times.) So though I agree that the eternal matters that we deal with are significantly more important than the temporal matters of other professionals, the analogy is not without its weaknesses.
    I've tired, apparently unsuccessfully, to point out that there is not an analogous relationship between the occasional pulpit supply and what Dan is doing. Dan is doing this full time, making a living at it. In any church of the Nazarene if the that lay person who occasionally steps into the pulpit in a pinch decides she/he wants to preach full time, we would require them to go through the process. How come Dan is not only exempt but people are defending his flaunting of the system?

    I think we can all agree that the occasional exception is not a problem. The lay people recognize that the fill in preacher is not really an authority. This is not at all close to what Dan is doing. Dan is functioning as a full-time evangelist in our church. We require them to be credentialed. Dan is exploiting a loophole designed specifically for the situations you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    I really know nothing of Bohi other than what I've read here, so I don't really have an informed opinion. Generally, I agree with most of the concerns that I've read here. I also, though, sometimes get concerned that what is said here can unintentionally give an "elitist" vibe. I would hope that we would be careful to avoid this. (No, Craig, I'm not specifically saying that you are doing that.)
    Actually I am. Physicians are elitist, they think correctly that they know more about doing surgery than paramedics. Lawyers are elitists, they think correctly that that know more about the law than the court reporter. CPA's are elitists, they think correctly that they know more about accounting than untrained bookkeeper. I think credentials boards made up of highly educated and deeply experienced theologians (mostly pastoral theologians but not all) know more about theology than a lay person. When it comes to Physicians, lawyers, accounting we all recognize that elitism isn't always bad, in fact our wellbeing depends on it.

    More importantly submitting to the larger council of elders is the Biblical formula for teaching theology. Even Paul submitted. (Acts 15) I’m sure Dan's a great guy but if Paul submits, why is Dan above it?
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    Actually I am. Physicians are elitist, they think correctly that they know more about doing surgery than paramedics. Lawyers are elitists, they think correctly that that know more about the law than the court reporter. CPA's are elitists, they think correctly that they know more about accounting than untrained bookkeeper. I think credentials boards made up of highly educated and deeply experienced theologians (mostly pastoral theologians but not all) know more about theology than a lay person. When it comes to Physicians, lawyers, accounting we all recognize that elitism isn't always bad, in fact our wellbeing depends on it.

    More importantly submitting to the larger council of elders is the Biblical formula for teaching theology. Even Paul submitted. (Acts 15) I’m sure Dan's a great guy but if Paul submits, why is Dan above it?
    I agree that someone doing what Bohi is doing should be under a proper authority. He is acting like an evangelist, but he is not submitting to the system that we have established for evangelists.

    On elitism: If we are setting up populism vs. elitism as a dichotomy, then I absolutely fall on the side of elitism. I am not a fan of populism at all. However, I think my time on NazNet has made it clear that I avoid dichotomies.

    Elitism to me isn't about recognizing that some people are better qualified for some things than others. Elitism is when those who think they are better qualified (whether they are or not) lord their qualities over others. A true pastor, for example, isn't one who is standing behind the pulpit telling people what to do (though certainly preaching is a part of the role). A true pastor is walking alongside his or her flock, guiding them as they do life together, and even leading them in doing acts of service and compassion for the disenfranchised. Elitism, as I use it, is an attitude, and in my opinion, it is an attitude that is entirely unbecoming of a minister of the Gospel.

    Again, please note that I am not actually saying that anyone here is an elitist, as I have described it. But I do sometimes get concerned that some of the things said on NazNet can seem elitist. And, of course, as most of us will admit, perception becomes reality (at least for those who have the perception). So I think it is important to guard against such elitism.
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  73. #73
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    I agree that someone doing what Bohi is doing should be under a proper authority. He is acting like an evangelist, but he is not submitting to the system that we have established for evangelists.

    On elitism: If we are setting up populism vs. elitism as a dichotomy, then I absolutely fall on the side of elitism. I am not a fan of populism at all. However, I think my time on NazNet has made it clear that I avoid dichotomies.

    Elitism to me isn't about recognizing that some people are better qualified for some things than others. Elitism is when those who think they are better qualified (whether they are or not) lord their qualities over others. A true pastor, for example, isn't one who is standing behind the pulpit telling people what to do (though certainly preaching is a part of the role). A true pastor is walking alongside his or her flock, guiding them as they do life together, and even leading them in doing acts of service and compassion for the disenfranchised. Elitism, as I use it, is an attitude, and in my opinion, it is an attitude that is entirely unbecoming of a minister of the Gospel.

    Again, please note that I am not actually saying that anyone here is an elitist, as I have described it. But I do sometimes get concerned that some of the things said on NazNet can seem elitist. And, of course, as most of us will admit, perception becomes reality (at least for those who have the perception). So I think it is important to guard against such elitism.
    I have to disagree here. Elitism is the belief that people with better or more valuable skills or abilities in certain areas should be given special treatment. Yes, you can lord that over someone, but the idea that we want our pastors to be educated and accountable is, in fact, elitism. We do this with teachers, doctors, restraunteurs, all sorts of people. The opposite of elitism is egalitarianism, whereby everyone is treated equally, regardless of qualifications. A Quaker service would be an example of this, where anyone can get up and talk. This would be a more libertarian argument that says "anyone should be able to practice medicine - let the market and the satisfaction of their patients determine whether they can make money at it."
    ...just my $.02.
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I have to disagree here. Elitism is the belief that people with better or more valuable skills or abilities in certain areas should be given special treatment. Yes, you can lord that over someone, but the idea that we want our pastors to be educated and accountable is, in fact, elitism. We do this with teachers, doctors, restraunteurs, all sorts of people. The opposite of elitism is egalitarianism, whereby everyone is treated equally, regardless of qualifications. A Quaker service would be an example of this, where anyone can get up and talk. This would be a more libertarian argument that says "anyone should be able to practice medicine - let the market and the satisfaction of their patients determine whether they can make money at it."
    Here is the beginning of the Wikipedia article on elitism. It does contain elements of what you say, but it also includes what I say:

    Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern. In America, the term "elitism" often refers to the concentration of power on the Northeast Corridor and West Coast, where the typical American elite - lawyers, doctors, high-level civil servants (such as White House aides), businesspeople, university lecturers, entrepreneurs and financial advisors in the quarternary sector - reside, often in the university towns they graduated from. [1]

    Alternatively, the term elitism may be used to describe a situation in which power is concentrated in the hands of a limited number of people. Oppositions of elitism include anti-elitism, egalitarianism, populism and political theory of pluralism. Elite theory is the sociological or political science analysis of elite influence in society: elite theorists regard pluralism as a utopian ideal.

    'Elitism' also refers to situations in which an individual assumes special 'privileges' and responsibilities in the hope that this arrangement will benefit humanity or themselves. Elitism is closely related to social class and what sociologists call social stratification. Members of the upper classes are sometimes known as the social elite. The term elitism is also sometimes used to denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others. This form of elitism may be described as discrimination.
    What is interesting to me, particularly in the context of the COTN, is where it says that the various categories of the "elite" are "those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others." If we consider ordained clergy as the "elite" in the COTN, our system is particularly designed to not be elitist. The senior pastor is the only active, ordained clergy member who is officially a part of the church board. District and General Assemblies are basically made up of half clergy and half laity (with some variations due to ex officio roles), and such.

    Actually, given as many times as you have posted your dislike of hierarchal systems that differentiate between clergy and laity and place clergy "higher" than laity, I am kind of surprised that you are posting here in favor of elitism. But, you are certainly welcome to do so and disagree with me.
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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Here is the beginning of the Wikipedia article on elitism. It does contain elements of what you say, but it also includes what I say:



    What is interesting to me, particularly in the context of the COTN, is where it says that the various categories of the "elite" are "those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others." If we consider ordained clergy as the "elite" in the COTN, our system is particularly designed to not be elitist. The senior pastor is the only active, ordained clergy member who is officially a part of the church board. District and General Assemblies are basically made up of half clergy and half laity (with some variations due to ex officio roles), and such.

    Actually, given as many times as you have posted your dislike of hierarchal systems that differentiate between clergy and laity and place clergy "higher" than laity, I am kind of surprised that you are posting here in favor of elitism. But, you are certainly welcome to do so and disagree with me.
    The ratio of clergy to laity at DA is not even close. It should be though. No ex officio members. All ordained clergy are members of the assembly and every local church elects one lay member for every clergy member it sends. I would even like to see GA streamlined in a similar manner.
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    The ratio of clergy to laity at DA is not even close. It should be though. No ex officio members. All ordained clergy are members of the assembly and every local church elects one lay member for every clergy member it sends. I would even like to see GA streamlined in a similar manner.
    Oops. My bad. You're correct with DA. Laity outweighs clergy significantly. Which underscores my point that our system is specifically designed to not be elitist, for good or not. Personally, I think it works out pretty well, valuing both the input of those who are called and properly credentialled, but also valuing the input of "normal" people.
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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    Just like Cory Jones has had speakers from IHOP at his prayer conferences. Just like I would have any number of my close friends preach for me if they happened to be in town. Some of whom you would not totally agree with their theology on.
    Which is in direct rebellion to the stated direction of the Board of General Superintendents statement:
    Therefore, we counsel that people practicing “tongues-speaking”or promoting it in any way should be encouraged and advised to seek membership elsewhere unless they are willing to discontinue their practice and their advocacy. Furthermore, we believe that our people should not participate in services or meetings which encourage the practice of speaking in tongues or schedule in our churches speakers or singers who are known to be active in the so-called charismatic movement.
    Of course, if pastors honored this instruction, they would never turn their pulpit over to Dan either.
    Thanks Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

  78. #78
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Not Jim here, but as an interested observer of this discussion (and a fellow member of Dan's at Olathe College Church), could I turn this question around just a bit?
    Would anyone here at Naznet give me specific examples of how he "is inveighing against the doctrine of the Church of the Nazarene"?

    I have seen Dan severely criticized for being overweight, for being a layman who preaches without being ordained, for being too emotional for some, etc., but don't see how any of those things are inveighing against Nazarene doctrine.

    What are the specific charges that should be raised against him?

    BILL
    If you read through the discussion on Dan's facebook post that I shared earlier, and if you follow his social media at all, you will see that he likes to share stories of people doing all of the strange charismatic manifestations that the BOGS has warned about. For instance this is from Dan's post:
    The Lord made himself visible through the manifestation of the Holy Spirit as Dan began his ministry of impartation as promised the night before.
    When Dan asked the congregation after sharing the profound message on the power of the Holy Spirit saying, “Who wants to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be empowered?” every single person raised their hand, and it was so many for Dan to lay his hands upon that he even said, “Oh my! How am I going to do this?”
    They rushed and competed against one another to get in front. It was hilarious though they were all serious.
    What happened next was phenomenal! One by one, as Dan laid his hands upon them, they either collapsed, fell, began to shake, repent, shout, sing, and so forth. Joanne, my wife was among those who collapsed.
    Thanks Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

  79. #79
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Maybe it would be nice to have some of the elders on Naznet tell us laymen how to define "inveighing against the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene".
    This verbiage comes right from the BOGS statement:
    In response, the 1972 General Assembly resolved: “Any practice and/or propagation of speaking in tongues, either as the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit or neo-Pentecostal ecstatic prayer language shall be interpreted as inveighing against the doctrines and usages of the Church of the Nazarene.”

    Four years later the general superintendents issued strongly-worded statements in their Quadrennial Address to the 1976 General Assembly, and in October 1976, in the Herald of Holiness. The general superintendents wrote:
    It is our considered judgment and ruling that any practice and/or propagation of speaking in tongues either as the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit or as a neo-pentecostal ecstatic prayer language shall be interpreted as inveighing against the doctrines and usages of the Church of the Nazarenes. . . .
    Examining Our Christian Heritage 2, Clergy Development, Church of the Nazarene, 2004
    And then emphasized again in 2002 statement:
    From time to time the Board of General Superintendents has been asked the question, “Do Nazarenes believe in the acceptability of neo-Pentecostal manifestations such as being slain in the Spirit, shaking, incessant laughter, and other similar phenomenon? Are these acceptable forms of worship in the Church of the Nazarene?”
    As you know, the Church of the Nazarene made a decision many years ago to disassociate itself from classical Pentecostalism by removing the name “Pentecostal” from the Church of the Nazarene. This was not done lightly. The early Holiness Movement in the United States soon became divided over the issue of tongues-speaking and other Pentecostal manifestations. The Church of the Nazarene felt led by the Spirit to place its emphasis on a changed life as being the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. We did not then, nor do we now, accept tongues-speaking or prayer language as being evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Nor are these practices accepted in our churches.
    Thanks Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    This verbiage comes right from the BOGS statement:And then emphasized again in 2002 statement:
    Am I missing something? I don't see any reports of speaking in tongues in the accounts you have referenced. By my own admission in a previous post, I would probably feel uncomfortable in a service that included some of the things mentioned, but I absolutely fail to see anything "against Nazarene doctrine". I wonder if part of our problem is in our varying past experience and where we grew up. Some of us are old enough to remember when Nazarene revival services often did manifest great emotional and physical reactions in people who were dealing with their need for God in their lives. My growing up in Ohio in the 1950's and 1960's sure exposed me to that. Many of the things in the description you referenced were indeed part of being Nazarene at one time. If you think it peculiar,I certainly can understand because my personality is such that even while appreciating the presence of God in some of those services I did and do feel some discomfort with it. But to call it not-Nazarene or anti-Nazarene is a stretch IMO!

    BILL

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    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I don't follow Dan's social postings and have no interest in attending his services, but I do not speak against his ministry either. If God can use him, then I do not wish to 'inveigh' on that.

    I can remember some pretty emotional services growing up in the church, but the one thing I have never experienced in a Nazarene service is a minister 'administering' the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. I have seen that in a lot of charismatic services, but never in a Nazarene service.

    As long as there are pastors and churches who feel they receive spiritual benefit from Dan's ministry, he will continue to be in demand.
    Thanks Bill Morrison - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Yes. I have some agreement with Glenn. In a world where so many things are fast forwarding away from what was, Dan and his people offer some strong anchor points to the supernatural.

    I was in Skyline Wesleyan a few months ago when Dan brought the morning message on sanctification. He spoke softly and I didn't sense a bit of coercion or show. At the end of the message nearly the entire crowd went forward.

    What Glenn said, "If God can use him, then I do not wish to 'inveigh' on that." Good words.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Thanks Bill Morrison, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    You didn't hear? Trumps people said no one really cares about that so that conversation is over. Keep up, Billy
    Those who do care don't matter, so it's just easier to say the 'don't matter' part.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Those who do care don't matter, so it's just easier to say the 'don't matter' part.
    Potato/potAHto....
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  85. #85
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    Am I missing something? I don't see any reports of speaking in tongues in the accounts you have referenced. By my own admission in a previous post, I would probably feel uncomfortable in a service that included some of the things mentioned, but I absolutely fail to see anything "against Nazarene doctrine". I wonder if part of our problem is in our varying past experience and where we grew up. Some of us are old enough to remember when Nazarene revival services often did manifest great emotional and physical reactions in people who were dealing with their need for God in their lives. My growing up in Ohio in the 1950's and 1960's sure exposed me to that. Many of the things in the description you referenced were indeed part of being Nazarene at one time. If you think it peculiar,I certainly can understand because my personality is such that even while appreciating the presence of God in some of those services I did and do feel some discomfort with it. But to call it not-Nazarene or anti-Nazarene is a stretch IMO!

    BILL
    I think we have made a huge mistake in our popular limiting of dangerous pentecostal manifestations to tongues. Note Stan Ingersol's response in the recent HT:
    Pentecostals shifted the emphasis to ecstatic "gifts of the spirit" and ecstatic experiences. They insisted that the infilling of the Holy Spirit is witnessed by physical manifestations such as "speaking in tongues." (italics mine)
    Yes, we reject speaking in tongues but we do so because it is one of many highly problematic aspects of experientalism. Tongues or not, the new generation of pentecostals is pedaling the same brand of theologically problematic notion that the indwelling of the Spirit will be evidenced by ecstatic experiences. They just use slight more covert language such as "authentic" and "unihibited." The words are different, but the underlying premise seems to me to be the same.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

  86. #86
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    I think we have made a huge mistake in our popular limiting of dangerous pentecostal manifestations to tongues. Note Stan Ingersol's response in the recent HT:

    Yes, we reject speaking in tongues but we do so because it is one of many highly problematic aspects of experientalism. Tongues or not, the new generation of pentecostals is pedaling the same brand of theologically problematic notion that the indwelling of the Spirit will be evidenced by ecstatic experiences. They just use slight more covert language such as "authentic" and "unihibited." The words are different, but the underlying premise seems to me to be the same.
    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this Eric. In all of the conversations that I've had with older folks who were around when this controversy affected us, they share the same story. They tell me that the problem wasn't the speaking in tongues, but rather in the Pentecostal doctrine that the speaking in tongues was the evidence of the filling of the Spirit. These folks were coming in and teaching that those who did not speak in tongues had not been filled with the Spirit. A long time pastor on our District tells me that this happened in his Church, folks had come in, they began by speaking up in Bible studies when he wasn't present, eventually assuming leadership of a couple of studies before he was made aware.

    I know that we might differ with them as many of us believe that this gift would manifest itself in the form of xenoglossia as opposed to glossolalia, still my sources tell me that the need to separate came from the doctrine concerning evidence of the Spirit.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  87. #87
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this Eric. In all of the conversations that I've had with older folks who were around when this controversy affected us, they share the same story. They tell me that the problem wasn't the speaking in tongues, but rather in the Pentecostal doctrine that the speaking in tongues was the evidence of the filling of the Spirit. These folks were coming in and teaching that those who did not speak in tongues had not been filled with the Spirit. A long time pastor on our District tells me that this happened in his Church, folks had come in, they began by speaking up in Bible studies when he wasn't present, eventually assuming leadership of a couple of studies before he was made aware.

    I know that we might differ with them as many of us believe that this gift would manifest itself in the form of xenoglossia as opposed to glossolalia, still my sources tell me that the need to separate came from the doctrine concerning evidence of the Spirit.
    The BOGS clarified the issue with this statement:

    The gift of tongues is related to the miraculous gift of many language barriers. The people present were astonished because each one heard the gospel being preached in his own native dialect (Acts 2:6, 8). This special miracle was an expression of God’s desire to reach every man everywhere through the spoken and written word. Language is the vehicle of God’s truth.

    We believe that the biblical material supports one authentic gift—a language given to communicate the gospel and not an unknown babble of sounds. It is our understanding that in 1 Corinthians 12; 13; 14, Paul was seeking to prevent the abuse of the authentic gift and condemning that which was spurious and of the flesh. We believe that the religious exercise called “tongues” which is not a means of communicating truth is a false gift and a dangerous substitute. We do not believe in a so-called prayer language.

    We have concluded that what is being practiced and promoted today is not the true scriptural gift and is therefore not to be condoned by our church . . .

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
    Thanks Jim Chabot, David Graham - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    The BOGS clarified the issue with this statement:

    The gift of tongues is related to the miraculous gift of many language barriers. The people present were astonished because each one heard the gospel being preached in his own native dialect (Acts 2:6, 8). This special miracle was an expression of God’s desire to reach every man everywhere through the spoken and written word. Language is the vehicle of God’s truth.

    We believe that the biblical material supports one authentic gift—a language given to communicate the gospel and not an unknown babble of sounds. It is our understanding that in 1 Corinthians 12; 13; 14, Paul was seeking to prevent the abuse of the authentic gift and condemning that which was spurious and of the flesh. We believe that the religious exercise called “tongues” which is not a means of communicating truth is a false gift and a dangerous substitute. We do not believe in a so-called prayer language.

    We have concluded that what is being practiced and promoted today is not the true scriptural gift and is therefore not to be condoned by our church . . .

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
    And I have never witnessed Dan B speaking in tongues nor promote speaking in tongues. I also have never heard anyone else say that he has.

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    And I have never witnessed Dan B speaking in tongues nor promote speaking in tongues. I also have never heard anyone else say that he has.
    I have not heard him speaking in tongues. However, I have heard him promoting it.

  90. #90
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    The BOGS clarified the issue with this statement:

    The gift of tongues is related to the miraculous gift of many language barriers. The people present were astonished because each one heard the gospel being preached in his own native dialect (Acts 2:6, 8). This special miracle was an expression of God’s desire to reach every man everywhere through the spoken and written word. Language is the vehicle of God’s truth.

    We believe that the biblical material supports one authentic gift—a language given to communicate the gospel and not an unknown babble of sounds. It is our understanding that in 1 Corinthians 12; 13; 14, Paul was seeking to prevent the abuse of the authentic gift and condemning that which was spurious and of the flesh. We believe that the religious exercise called “tongues” which is not a means of communicating truth is a false gift and a dangerous substitute. We do not believe in a so-called prayer language.

    We have concluded that what is being practiced and promoted today is not the true scriptural gift and is therefore not to be condoned by our church . . .

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
    Thanks Kevin, I would agree with this. I used the word "many" only because I wasn't sure if this was official.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  91. #91
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this Eric. In all of the conversations that I've had with older folks who were around when this controversy affected us, they share the same story. They tell me that the problem wasn't the speaking in tongues, but rather in the Pentecostal doctrine that the speaking in tongues was the evidence of the filling of the Spirit. These folks were coming in and teaching that those who did not speak in tongues had not been filled with the Spirit. A long time pastor on our District tells me that this happened in his Church, folks had come in, they began by speaking up in Bible studies when he wasn't present, eventually assuming leadership of a couple of studies before he was made aware.

    I know that we might differ with them as many of us believe that this gift would manifest itself in the form of xenoglossia as opposed to glossolalia, still my sources tell me that the need to separate came from the doctrine concerning evidence of the Spirit.
    Sorry if I wasn't clear. This is exactly what I was trying to communicate. Any ecstatic practice becomes problematic when it becomes evidentiary.

    1) This is why "well they aren't speaking in tongues, so it is OK" doesn't work. It is not tongues that is the issue. The issues is holding any ecstatic experience up as evidence.

    2) Even so, I too, though I have not heard Dan speaking in tongues, have heard that he promotes it.

    3) While none associated with this movement would ever say explicitly that they believe experience is evidence, the claim is subtly implicit throughout the movement. It is part and parcel of pentecostalism.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

  92. #92
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Sorry if I wasn't clear. This is exactly what I was trying to communicate. Any ecstatic practice becomes problematic when it becomes evidentiary.

    1) This is why "well they aren't speaking in tongues, so it is OK" doesn't work. It is not tongues that is the issue. The issues is holding any ecstatic experience up as evidence.

    2) Even so, I too, though I have not heard Dan speaking in tongues, have heard that he promotes it.

    3) While none associated with this movement would ever say explicitly that they believe experience is evidence, the claim is subtly implicit throughout the movement. It is part and parcel of pentecostalism.
    You were clear enough Eric and I agree with your focus. I was just adding in the testimony of folks that were there and saw the problem in person. Your focus is more than theoretical, we did have real problems.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I remember seeing a person "slain in the spirit" when I was elementary school aged. It scared me to death. I've had no interest in anything that resembles that stuff ever since. When I've watched one of Dan's YouTube videos, one word has come to mind: slick.
    Thanks Martha Crafton - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    And I have never witnessed Dan B speaking in tongues nor promote speaking in tongues. I also have never heard anyone else say that he has.
    But what about the snake-handling?

    Disclaimer: Yes, I am joking.
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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    But what about the snake-handling?

    Disclaimer: Yes, I am joking.
    That would be more biblical than being slain-in-the-spirit.

    Disclaimer: I'm joking too.

  96. #96
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    The issues is holding any ecstatic experience up as evidence.
    I had an ecstatic experience. Once.

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    I remember seeing a person "slain in the spirit" when I was elementary school aged. It scared me to death. I've had no interest in anything that resembles that stuff ever since. When I've watched one of Dan's YouTube videos, one word has come to mind: slick.
    Confession time! My wife and I were at a large pentecostal tent meeting service near Fall River, MA. There was a whole bunch of hooting and hollering which isn't anything out of the ordinary, and then people started getting "slain in the spirit." I watched with curious amusement, wondering how this could actually be a manifestation of the actual Spirit, especially given that the only folks I could remember from Scripture getting slain by the Spirit were the bad guys. And then the fellow directly in front of me began to wobble and fall back toward me..................................


    So I stepped to the side to let him fall.


    He quickly recovered from his being "slain," stood up, turned and gave me a really dirty look. I tried not to smile back or laugh, but I'm sure that I did. Anyways scientific test complete, the hypothesis holds true, this stuff is bunk.


    On the other hand, I once invited a friend to a concert at my Church a few years back. Partway through the worship music preamble to the concert, he turned and said "I didn't realize that your Church was Pentecostal." I told him that it wasn't, we run right up to the edge of glorious praise, just before the nonsense begins, and we stop right there.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    I had an ecstatic experience. Once.

    Looks like you are passed out on top of a bunch of "empties." But if you say so.......................................

    BTW: Al Mohler says your out, good Baptists sit on their hands so that this doesn't happen.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Confession time! My wife and I were at a large pentecostal tent meeting service near Fall River, MA. There was a whole bunch of hooting and hollering which isn't anything out of the ordinary, and then people started getting "slain in the spirit." I watched with curious amusement, wondering how this could actually be a manifestation of the actual Spirit, especially given that the only folks I could remember from Scripture getting slain by the Spirit were the bad guys. And then the fellow directly in front of me began to wobble and fall back toward me..................................


    So I stepped to the side to let him fall.
    Isn't there a thread in the main forum that you should have posted that story in?
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Isn't there a thread in the main forum that you should have posted that story in?
    Ok, you got me, apparently I might need prayer. I was going to say that I can't post this over there because it happened about 35 years ago, but that's no excuse. I guess the real reason that I can't post it over there is because I'm still laughing about it. Somehow the guilt and shame just hasn't gotten to me just yet.

    Besides, it was a scientific experiment used to test a hypothesis. There, now that is a 100% bona fide excuse!

    Have I mentioned the service where the evangelist was trying to pray another guys leg to be longer so that they matched and he could walk straight? Holy Procrustes Batman, it actually worked. All you have to do is hold the legs differently before and after the prayer, and presto a ready made miracle for the gullible masses. I did sit quietly through that service, but I'm neither proud nor ashamed, so that won't work.

    I'll keep trying though.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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