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Thread: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

  1. #501
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I thought about posting this same question on the facebook theology page to see what kind of response we would get. Then I remembered that I am done with the Dan Bohi Controversy.

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  2. #502
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I thought about posting this same question on the facebook theology page to see what kind of response we would get. Then I remembered that I am done with the Dan Bohi Controversy.

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    Don't worry Kevin, I've heard that the controversy will be over on August 1

    Just kidding, I can't let Lucas tell all the jokes.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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  3. #503
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Don't worry Kevin, I've heard that the controversy will be over on August 1

    Just kidding, I can't let Lucas tell all the jokes.
    I have to wonder if the admins will allow these types of discussions to continue on fb. They're not always uplifting or affirming.

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    I am reasonably sure that as long as there is the person named in the heading there will be controversy.
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  5. #505
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I have to wonder if the admins will allow these types of discussions to continue on fb. They're not always uplifting or affirming.

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    Having heard complaints already of deleted threads, I wouldn't bet on it.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

  6. #506
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    I have to wonder if the admins will allow these types of discussions to continue on fb. They're not always uplifting or affirming.

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    I'm hoping that they won't. While I do understand that transparency is always preferable to secrecy, I've also witnessed the harm that has come from controversial threads. The publishing house thread is probably the best example. Many, if not most, of the allegations made and believed there turned out to be either false or only partially true. Another is the Mid Atlantic scandal thread, while I believe the allegations made there to be true, I can also say that this thread has allowed bitterness to seep into my heart. Given that nothing has been accomplished, I wonder if I would have been better off not knowing.

    I'm looking forward to Facebook being a kinder gentler place than this has been. Not that I'm incapable of rising to the occasion, more that I'm not a better person because of it.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  7. #507
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I'm hoping that they won't. While I do understand that transparency is always preferable to secrecy, I've also witnessed the harm that has come from controversial threads. The publishing house thread is probably the best example. Many, if not most, of the allegations made and believed there turned out to be either false or only partially true. Another is the Mid Atlantic scandal thread, while I believe the allegations made there to be true, I can also say that this thread has allowed bitterness to seep into my heart. Given that nothing has been accomplished, I wonder if I would have been better off not knowing.

    I'm looking forward to Facebook being a kinder gentler place than this has been. Not that I'm incapable of rising to the occasion, more that I'm not a better person because of it.
    I'm so sorry you believe this. The harm is not from controversial threads - the harm is from the controversies that breed them.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

  8. #508
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    I'm so sorry you believe this. The harm is not from controversial threads - the harm is from the controversies that breed them.
    Not always true Tim. I'm particularly taken by a line spoken by the dowager in an episode of Downton Abbey. Speaking of a marriage gone wrong she quipped, "I stay out of these sort of things, there are always three sides, her side, his side and the truth."

    This has been true of the controversies discussed here. While I can't be sure, I can envision three sides to the Tom Oord story, the Randy Beckham story and the NPH story. I might also not that while folks here made these stories controversial, in the end there was nothing found to be scandalous at the root of any of them.

    Dave McClung once wisely counseled that we should take stock in our circle of influence and that maybe discussions on things outside of our reach might not be wise. I'm not sure of his exact words, I'm trying to capture what I recall, and I'm trying also to heed his sage advice, although I've surely failed to do from time to time.

    Most of all don't be sorry, because what I am hoping for is a place of greater peace and better and kinder fellowship. It's a good thing, even Jesus has said that we need not worry about tomorrow, we have enough trouble today.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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  9. #509
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    This has been true of the controversies discussed here. While I can't be sure, I can envision three sides to the Tom Oord story, the Randy Beckham story and the NPH story. I might also not that while folks here made these stories controversial, in the end there was nothing found to be scandalous at the root of any of them.
    No scandal? I think you're using a different dictionary than the rest of us.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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  10. #510
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    No scandal? I think you're using a different dictionary than the rest of us.
    Move on, there's nothing to see here.

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  11. #511
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Not always true Tim. I'm particularly taken by a line spoken by the dowager in an episode of Downton Abbey. Speaking of a marriage gone wrong she quipped, "I stay out of these sort of things, there are always three sides, her side, his side and the truth."

    This has been true of the controversies discussed here. While I can't be sure, I can envision three sides to the Tom Oord story, the Randy Beckham story and the NPH story. I might also not that while folks here made these stories controversial, in the end there was nothing found to be scandalous at the root of any of them.

    Dave McClung once wisely counseled that we should take stock in our circle of influence and that maybe discussions on things outside of our reach might not be wise. I'm not sure of his exact words, I'm trying to capture what I recall, and I'm trying also to heed his sage advice, although I've surely failed to do from time to time.

    Most of all don't be sorry, because what I am hoping for is a place of greater peace and better and kinder fellowship. It's a good thing, even Jesus has said that we need not worry about tomorrow, we have enough trouble today.
    Just one question, did Dave McClung say that before or after a certain European DS was contacted about a Naznetter's pending ordination interview?
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  12. #512
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    No scandal? I think you're using a different dictionary than the rest of us.
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  13. #513
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    No scandal? I think you're using a different dictionary than the rest of us.
    I have no doubts of this. Kinda makes my point.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  14. #514
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Move on, there's nothing to see here.

    Attachment 9045
    Not true at all, these were fully, exhaustively and I might add obsessively explored by concerned naznetters, none led to factual realization of the allegations.

    It's all explained here.



    Looking hopefully forward to a more peaceful place.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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  15. #515
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Behold I show you a mystery:
    Bohi has aroused the ire of many on NN. NN has aroused the ire of CN's. Bohi has aroused the ire of many CN's.

    Go Figure!
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Eric Frey - "thanks" for this post

  16. #516
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I have no doubts of this. Kinda makes my point.
    Let me put it a different way.

    By my count we have discussed four scandals, so called, here over the past few years. Two involved university professors, on involved our publishing house and one involved swindling the retirement savings from quite a few old folks.

    Certainly one has the right to be upset if a professor that they like is terminated. I'm upset and quite sad to see that Tim Shetler has been let go from ENC, due to declining enrollment, and especially sad to see Lambert Brandes go as well. But there is no scandal here, nothing of the kind.

    And then we have the publishing house. It had been failing for some time, and those entrusted with it decided that something needed to be done. While hindsight is 20/20 the plan to change leadership and effect a merger was certainly valid. We were told that the merger involved the gifting of another company to us. This was in part true, we were gifted the "good will" of this company while purchasing the tangible assets. Much the same as if we had decided to move outside operations in house, without the learning curve and talent costs involved. Not as complete a gift as we might have been led to believe, a gift none the less. We changed leadership to take advantage of someone who had been quite successful in his own ventures which included the gifted company. Certainly we took a chance, maybe we thought that we had to. In the end it just didn't work. While it can easily be said that the gifted company was of no value because we were it's largest customer, it can also be said that consolidation brings savings, greater efficiency and capability. Hindsight is 20/20 and "scared money will never make money." In the aftermath we have also seen that the individual chosen to lead has dusted himself off and embarked on a new venture without us, he is finding pretty good success, beyond what we might attribute to a windfall gained.

    Sure we can call this a scandal, but it would be much more accurate to downgrade the hyperbole to failed experiment. If I recall, Dave McClung's observation was that we failed to do our due diligence prior to, and that the net result of this failure is that the publishing house might have lasted for one year longer had we not merged. A scandal? Hardly.

    And yet these were big scandals here on naznet, obsessively investigated and followed. I'll plead guilty to being sucked in myself on the latter.

    Then we get to the fourth one. It looks like our Church swindled 1.5 million dollars from folks who were saving for retirement. I believe that you and I are in agreement on this one, this is scandalous. This is also something that falls within the realm of Church discipline, for we are instructed that a swindler must be expelled from the Church and considered as an unbeliever.

    And yet, you and I are in a small minority here, as most folks on naznet have cast a blind eye toward this one. Some even going so far as to blame the victims. Their crime is that they trusted us.

    In comparison, can you honestly say that the first three situations deserve to be called scandals.

    Myself, I'm thinking that I would have been better off had I not heard of any of them. Although I did take the opportunity to make a difference in someone's life because of the Mid Atlantic scandal, I am thankful for that opportunity.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  17. #517
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Let me put it a different way.

    By my count we have discussed four scandals, so called, here over the past few years. Two involved university professors, on involved our publishing house and one involved swindling the retirement savings from quite a few old folks.

    Certainly one has the right to be upset if a professor that they like is terminated. I'm upset and quite sad to see that Tim Shetler has been let go from ENC, due to declining enrollment, and especially sad to see Lambert Brandes go as well. But there is no scandal here, nothing of the kind.

    And then we have the publishing house. It had been failing for some time, and those entrusted with it decided that something needed to be done. While hindsight is 20/20 the plan to change leadership and effect a merger was certainly valid. We were told that the merger involved the gifting of another company to us. This was in part true, we were gifted the "good will" of this company while purchasing the tangible assets. Much the same as if we had decided to move outside operations in house, without the learning curve and talent costs involved. Not as complete a gift as we might have been led to believe, a gift none the less. We changed leadership to take advantage of someone who had been quite successful in his own ventures which included the gifted company. Certainly we took a chance, maybe we thought that we had to. In the end it just didn't work. While it can easily be said that the gifted company was of no value because we were it's largest customer, it can also be said that consolidation brings savings, greater efficiency and capability. Hindsight is 20/20 and "scared money will never make money." In the aftermath we have also seen that the individual chosen to lead has dusted himself off and embarked on a new venture without us, he is finding pretty good success, beyond what we might attribute to a windfall gained.

    Sure we can call this a scandal, but it would be much more accurate to downgrade the hyperbole to failed experiment. If I recall, Dave McClung's observation was that we failed to do our due diligence prior to, and that the net result of this failure is that the publishing house might have lasted for one year longer had we not merged. A scandal? Hardly.

    And yet these were big scandals here on naznet, obsessively investigated and followed. I'll plead guilty to being sucked in myself on the latter.

    Then we get to the fourth one. It looks like our Church swindled 1.5 million dollars from folks who were saving for retirement. I believe that you and I are in agreement on this one, this is scandalous. This is also something that falls within the realm of Church discipline, for we are instructed that a swindler must be expelled from the Church and considered as an unbeliever.

    And yet, you and I are in a small minority here, as most folks on naznet have cast a blind eye toward this one. Some even going so far as to blame the victims. Their crime is that they trusted us.

    In comparison, can you honestly say that the first three situations deserve to be called scandals.

    Myself, I'm thinking that I would have been better off had I not heard of any of them. Although I did take the opportunity to make a difference in someone's life because of the Mid Atlantic scandal, I am thankful for that opportunity.
    You're forgetting a few scandals.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

  18. #518
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Behold I show you a mystery:
    Bohi has aroused the ire of many on NN. NN has aroused the ire of CN's. Bohi has aroused the ire of many CN's.

    Go Figure!
    The fruit of this movement is division and it is rotten.


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    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


    The BOGS recognized this and called it out years ago:


    It is strongly felt that by ignoring such practices or even supporting them, we are sowing seeds for the divisiveness that has historically accompanied such activities.

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  19. #519
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    You're forgetting a few scandals.
    Beside the point, no?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  20. #520
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Beside the point, no?
    Not really, Jim. You've cherry picked the scandals which you declare are not scandals, and started changing the subject.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Not really, Jim. You've cherry picked the scandals which you declare are not scandals, and started changing the subject.
    Not true at all. You had it right the first time, I honestly don't recall any other, scandals so called, that have been discussed here over the last few years.

    As I try to remember if there were more, all I'm coming up with is the shelter guy/child molester thing. But he made a full admission went off to jail and I'm assuming surrendered his credentials. I can think of a couple more on my District that might be similar, but they were not discussed here.

    Still this is all immaterial to the point. Point being that we have elevated some pretty small things to scandal status, only to play cover up when a real scandal presents itself.

    Again, looking forward to perhaps a better place. I've enjoyed being here and fully appreciate the effort made to provide this place for us and what I have learned. In the end I remain optimistic that things will be better. I'm an optimist, that's what I do.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Not true at all. You had it right the first time, I honestly don't recall any other, scandals so called, that have been discussed here over the last few years.
    Well, there was the deletion of my "So . . . Politics" thread. Or, as I like to call it, "So . . . Politicsgate".
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  23. #523
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    You're forgetting a few scandals.
    And GROSSLY over simplifying (and mischaracterizing) those discussed in such a way that one has to wonder if attention was being paid at all to what was really happening.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    And GROSSLY over simplifying (and mischaracterizing) those discussed in such a way that one has to wonder if attention was being paid at all to what was really happening.
    It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't believe there's a scandal, why pay attention?
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    We were told that the merger involved the gifting of another company to us. This was in part true, we were gifted the "good will" of this company while purchasing the tangible assets.
    So the benefit was still a gift even though one has to make a purchase to get it. Kind of sounds like late night TV, your free gift with any $10 purchase! Ethically, if you have to pay, it's not a gift. Based on this logic I got a lot of things I would like to "gift" to people.

    They (the highest levels of our church) told a lie (deliberately misrepresented the truth) plain and simple. That in itself is a scandal, that it was a 2 million dollar scandal just makes it more uncomfortable and rightly brought further scrutiny and suspicion of more misconduct.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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  26. #526
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    Well, there was the deletion of my "So . . . Politics" thread. Or, as I like to call it, "So . . . Politicsgate".
    Please, I beg your forgiveness kind and benevolent master! How could I have forgotten this queen of all scandals. My post count suffered loss because of it. If it affects me, it must be a scandal of the highest order! (see what I did here?)

    Now that I'm thinking about it, the demise of the politics forum cost me thousands of posts, a scandal of the highest order!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Laughing Lucas Finch, Glenn Messer - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    So the benefit was still a gift even though one has to make a purchase to get it. Kind of sounds like late night TV, your free gift with any $10 purchase! Ethically, if you have to pay, it's not a gift. Based on this logic I got a lot of things I would like to "gift" to people.

    They (the highest levels of our church) told a lie (deliberately misrepresented the truth) plain and simple. That in itself is a scandal, that it was a 2 million dollar scandal just makes it more uncomfortable and rightly brought further scrutiny and suspicion of more misconduct.
    Technically yes, it is still a gift. For instance, I sold off one of my gas stations back in 1989, I received in round numbers $75K for the equipment, 60K for the inventory and 125K for the business, making the total sale equal 260K. Which actually seemed like a lot of money back then, when nowadays about all it would amount to is a down payment on an excavator. But I digress........... If I had gifted the business free and clear, I would still be owed 135K for the inventory and equipment. That's what happened with Premier.

    No matter, how on earth does this even compare to the scandal of screwing over some old folks. Are we following the rule that says that if we suffer loss, then it's a scandal??
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't believe there's a scandal, why pay attention?
    Go back and read the posts, I was paying plenty of attention. The allegations brought forward by the angry mob were proven false.

    Some folks will confuse intellect with emotion and cry foul no matter the outcome. As Homer Simpson would say, "don't start confusing me with facts, I'm mad and I intend to stay mad!"
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  29. #529
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Go back and read the posts, I was paying plenty of attention. The allegations brought forward by the angry mob were proven false.

    Some folks will confuse intellect with emotion and cry foul no matter the outcome. As Homer Simpson would say, "don't start confusing me with facts, I'm mad and I intend to stay mad!"
    Which allegations were proven false?
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Which allegations were proven false?
    The one where Mr. Smith killed her in the printing room with the hole punch.
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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    The allegations brought forward by the angry mob were proven false.
    Either you're employing hyperbole or are using a different dictionary again.

    You might as well stop trying to convince me that you're right on this. In each of the cases you've mentioned I've either talked to primary sources on each side of the issue or read primary accounts on each side of the issue. Secondary and tertiary sources like hearsay and NazNet open the door. That is why open dialogue is important - without it, many would not seek out the primary sources. As the oft used phrase goes, "trust but verify." There have been many spokespersons who say "nothing to see here folks". Such statements in and of themselves do not constitute proof, and need supporting evidence.

    So why do I keep replying to you? It's certainly not to change your mind. That would be a fool's errand. The discussion (even though it will soon be over) is for the benefit of other readers and lurkers to know to seek out the primary sources themselves.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Which allegations were proven false?
    The allegations that Oord wasn't teaching within the doctrines of the Nazarene church were false. Not that it helped him any...
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Your link was missing a colon. That can be fixed, if you have enough faith.
    The absence of a cyber colon makes a digital colonoscopy infinitely more difficult. Hopefully everything will come out alright in the end.

    (sorrow, yea profound contrition for the above. In the immortal words of Flip Wilson, "The devil made me do it." Alas, I can resist just about everything but temptation.)
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    The allegations that Oord wasn't teaching within the doctrines of the Nazarene church were false. Not that it helped him any...
    Funny story about that:

    At the beginning of May, I walked in NNU's commencement ceremony for the College of Adult and Graduate Studies. (I have two more classes to wrap up this fall before they actually let me have my degree, though.) Prior to commencement, each school participating in the CAGS commencement held a luncheon / hooding ceremony for their school. (The College of Arts & Sciences, a.k.a. the traditional undergrad school had a more traditional baccalaureate with hooding the night before.) At the luncheon for the School of Theology & Christian Ministries, awards were given to an outstanding professor from each of the three areas of emphasis of the Masters Degrees offered. These awards were voted on by the students in those programs. (I was just a lowly BA student, so I didn't get a say.) Tom Oord received the award for two of the three areas. And he wasn't even present. (I'm not sure if that was his choice or if he was told not to be there.) One of my friends who received his MA and is most certainly not a "crazy liberal" (but neither is he a strict conservative) told me that Tom was the best prof he had in his two years of classes for his MA.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Technically yes, it is still a gift. For instance, I sold off one of my gas stations back in 1989, I received in round numbers $75K for the equipment, 60K for the inventory and 125K for the business, making the total sale equal 260K. Which actually seemed like a lot of money back then, when nowadays about all it would amount to is a down payment on an excavator. But I digress........... If I had gifted the business free and clear, I would still be owed 135K for the inventory and equipment. That's what happened with Premier.

    No matter, how on earth does this even compare to the scandal of screwing over some old folks. Are we following the rule that says that if we suffer loss, then it's a scandal??
    The equipment was not worth anything close to 2 million. That was his debt on the business. -- Either way, if there is a cost, it is not a gift in any normal sense of the word. To publish broadly that it was a gift intentionally misled the rank and file of the denomination.

    Redefining the word gift isn't helpful. If if they thought about it in the way you suggest, they knew that is not the message they were communicating to the membership of the church. The BGS are all excellent communicators, no excuses.
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  36. #536
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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Please, I beg your forgiveness kind and benevolent master! How could I have forgotten this queen of all scandals. My post count suffered loss because of it. If it affects me, it must be a scandal of the highest order! (see what I did here?)

    Now that I'm thinking about it, the demise of the politics forum cost me thousands of posts, a scandal of the highest order!
    In the end it all comes down to 'post count'. Who would have thought that in the last days of NN manifestations of the flesh would've become so rampant.

  37. #537
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Which allegations were proven false?
    Just about every allegation put forth by the reformed/concerned Nazarene crowd.
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  38. #538
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    The allegations that Oord wasn't teaching within the doctrines of the Nazarene church were false. Not that it helped him any...
    Right, because the allegations that this was the reason for his dismissal were proven false.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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  39. #539
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    Which allegations were proven false?
    The allegations that Gerald defrauded us out of 2 million dollars were proven to be false, the final report shows that he was up front about this. The allegations that Gerald was there to steal away the profitable parts of the business for himself, this was proven false. If I remember right, it was even alleged that there existed a beer cooler on the premises, Ryan Deo testified that this was false as well. Along with a myriad of other spurious allegations, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm ashamed of my participation in that thread or threads. I did seek out J.K. Warrick to apologize to him personally, and should I ever get the chance I will do so, it is a debt that I still owe him.

    Still not the point, not the point at all. The only thing scandalous was the gossip about the situation.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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  40. #540
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    The one where Mr. Smith killed her in the printing room with the hole punch.
    To wit, the entire conversation about this could have been avoided had Mr. Smith been following the Billy Graham rule.


    Unless he had help?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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  41. #541
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Either you're employing hyperbole or are using a different dictionary again.

    You might as well stop trying to convince me that you're right on this. In each of the cases you've mentioned I've either talked to primary sources on each side of the issue or read primary accounts on each side of the issue. Secondary and tertiary sources like hearsay and NazNet open the door. That is why open dialogue is important - without it, many would not seek out the primary sources. As the oft used phrase goes, "trust but verify." There have been many spokespersons who say "nothing to see here folks". Such statements in and of themselves do not constitute proof, and need supporting evidence.

    So why do I keep replying to you? It's certainly not to change your mind. That would be a fool's errand. The discussion (even though it will soon be over) is for the benefit of other readers and lurkers to know to seek out the primary sources themselves.
    We agree on one thing, the discussion will soon be over! I'm saying that this looks like a good thing, that's the point.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  42. #542
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    The equipment was not worth anything close to 2 million. That was his debt on the business. -- Either way, if there is a cost, it is not a gift in any normal sense of the word. To publish broadly that it was a gift intentionally misled the rank and file of the denomination.

    Redefining the word gift isn't helpful. If if they thought about it in the way you suggest, they knew that is not the message they were communicating to the membership of the church. The BGS are all excellent communicators, no excuses.
    I can certainly concede that we were led to believe that this was an outright gifting of everything, I'm still disappointed about this.

    And I apologize that I've taken the bait and gone part way down this rabbit trail with you. This is still beside the point. Bad business deal? Yep. Didn't do their proper due diligence and produce a proforma? Yep. Scandal? Nope.

    This isn't the first business adventure to go bad, and not the first one to go bad due to bad decisions. Still it's not a scandal, not by any reasonable definition.

    Back in the seventies, the International Harvester Corporation hired a fellow by the name of Archie McCardle to run their business, the reins had been previously held by a member of the McCormick family who had started the company. You can read of the downfall of International Harvester in "A Corporate Tragedy" written by Barbara Marsh, much of the story mirrors the story of the downfall of NPH. It was a tragedy, not a scandal.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  43. #543
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    We agree on one thing, the discussion will soon be over! I'm saying that this looks like a good thing, that's the point.
    The rug wins again.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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  44. #544
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I can certainly concede that we were led to believe that this was an outright gifting of everything, I'm still disappointed about this.
    According to Merriam-Webster, scandal is
    discredit brought upon religion by unseemly conduct in a religious person
    and
    loss of or damage to reputation caused by actual or apparent violation of morality or propriety
    Being led to believe something that was not so by religious leaders satisfies these two definitions of scandal, as misleading others is both unseemly conduct and an apparent moral lapse.

    Your move.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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  45. #545
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    See? Now THIS is the NazNetDOTCOM that we all know and love. The Facebook groups are just dumb and boring. (Well, the NazNet groups, anyway. The NazToo groups are kinda fun.)


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  46. #546
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    See? Now THIS is the NazNetDOTCOM that we all know and love.
    Naw, there are some much more loveable threads, & y'all know it!
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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    According to Merriam-Webster, scandal is

    and


    Being led to believe something that was not so by religious leaders satisfies these two definitions of scandal, as misleading others is both unseemly conduct and an apparent moral lapse.

    Your move.
    By your standard, I'm afraid that you have just convicted most every pastor who has ever served.

    Good grief, do you actually think that the GS's thought that this would fail. Do you honestly think that anyone started out with anything other than good intentions and a hope that they could save the publishing house?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  48. #548
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Good grief, do you actually think that the GS's thought that this would fail. Do you honestly think that anyone started out with anything other than good intentions and a hope that they could save the publishing house?
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Regardless of intent, being led to believe a misleading narrative after the fact is the scandal. That's my comment - that being led to believe something that isn't so is the scandal. Intent has nothing to do with it.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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  49. #549
    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    See? Now THIS is the NazNetDOTCOM that we all know and love. The Facebook groups are just dumb and boring. (Well, the NazNet groups, anyway. The NazToo groups are kinda fun.)


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  50. #550
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Typical NazNetDotCom question:

    Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Typical NazNet on fb question:

    What's your favorite color?

    Sent from my SM-T537V using Tapatalk
    We should petition the admins to keep one thread unlocked. It would be gloriously impossible to follow!
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
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  51. #551
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Regardless of intent, being led to believe a misleading narrative after the fact is the scandal. That's my comment - that being led to believe something that isn't so is the scandal. Intent has nothing to do with it.
    No one is talking about a misleading narrative, this was before the fact, you must not have been paying attention when this was going on.

    That being said, intent has everything to do with it. If the GS's conveyed what they believed to be true, and there is no reason to believe that they didn't...................................

    Then I guess we all sin in word act and deed each and every day.

    Amazing how those Baptist influences creep in. I'm guessing that you didn't even notice, and you are most welcome!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  52. #552
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wright View Post
    Typical NazNetDotCom question:

    Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Typical NazNet on fb question:

    What's your favorite color?

    Sent from my SM-T537V using Tapatalk
    Green, most definitely green. Just love seeing green!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  53. #553
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    No one is talking about a misleading narrative, this was before the fact, you must not have been paying attention when this was going on.
    Who was it that said this?
    I can certainly concede that we were led to believe that this was an outright gifting of everything
    Moving on...

    That being said, intent has everything to do with it. If the GS's conveyed what they believed to be true, and there is no reason to believe that they didn't...................................

    Then I guess we all sin in word act and deed each and every day.

    Amazing how those Baptist influences creep in. I'm guessing that you didn't even notice, and you are most welcome!
    Nice invocation of fallacies. If you want to change the discussion to one about sin you are welcome to; it's not like we can create any new threads so might as well pile on new topics into this one. My point, though you shy away from it, is about scandal - not about sin. Feel free to refer to the definitions of scandal, which I posted previously. Note that a scandal may include "actual or apparent violation of morality" - there is no requirement for sin or ill intent to create a scandal.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

  54. #554
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    "The definition of the word marriage—or, more accurately, the understanding of what the institution of marriage properly consists of—continues to be highly controversial. This is not an issue to be resolved by dictionaries. Ultimately, the controversy involves cultural traditions, religious beliefs, legal rulings, and ideas about fairness and basic human rights."

    This is from Merriam-Webster. It's only relevance to this issue is to point out that not every argument can be settled by definition.

    ["Opponents of gay marriage generally have relied on two authorities, the Bible and the dictionary—the divine word and the defined word. A 2006 friend-of-the-court brief filed on behalf of anti-gay-marriage organizations in a Maryland marriage case cited no fewer than seven dictionaries to make its point. And when the Iowa Supreme Court legalized gay marriage last week, it ignored the state's plea to abide by a dictionary definition that limited marriage to "the legal union of a man and a woman."] From a 2009 article in "Slate" magazine.

    Some people see Trump as committing acts of 'treason', while reasonable () people realize nothing he has done fits the 'definition'. Same could be said of 'collusion'.

    Truthfully, I tend to agree with both of you to a point.
    Thanks Tim Troxler, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  55. #555
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    By your standard, I'm afraid that you have just convicted most every pastor who has ever served.
    Certainly true of a few laypersons....

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Who was it that said this?


    Moving on...



    Nice invocation of fallacies. If you want to change the discussion to one about sin you are welcome to; it's not like we can create any new threads so might as well pile on new topics into this one. My point, though you shy away from it, is about scandal - not about sin. Feel free to refer to the definitions of scandal, which I posted previously. Note that a scandal may include "actual or apparent violation of morality" - there is no requirement for sin or ill intent to create a scandal.
    Dance around all you want Tim, it wasn't a scandal. Shooting oneself in the foot is a tragedy, shooting someone else in the foot makes a scandal.

    Not blaming you, but did you notice how the conversation moves pretty close to instantly away from the real scandal where we screwed some old folks out of their retirement money? Seems to be the propensity here, it's not one that I will miss.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Dance around all you want Tim, it wasn't a scandal. Shooting oneself in the foot is a tragedy, shooting someone else in the foot makes a scandal.

    Not blaming you, but did you notice how the conversation moves pretty close to instantly away from the real scandal where we screwed some old folks out of their retirement money? Seems to be the propensity here, it's not one that I will miss.
    Jim,

    No dancing around; I'm Nazarene

    Using your own metaphor, the careers of several were "shot in the foot" by the powers that be. I'm sure you're sitting there fuming "No it's not a scandal; it's a hunting accident!" so we'll have to agree to disagree.

    There's nothing to discuss about the MAD scandal, as we're all in agreement. If you need your ego stroked that yes, this is a scandal and yes, you reminded us about it then I'll do that. Thanks for reminding us of this scandal.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

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    Senior Member Kevin Wright's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?


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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    By your standard, I'm afraid that you have just convicted most every pastor who has ever served.

    Good grief, do you actually think that the GS's thought that this would fail.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Do you honestly think that anyone started out with anything other than good intentions?
    Yes I do (depending on how one defines good).
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by tim troxler View Post
    the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Regardless of intent, being led to believe a misleading narrative after the fact is the scandal. That's my comment - that being led to believe something that isn't so is the scandal. Intent has nothing to do with it.
    this!
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    No one is talking about a misleading narrative, this was before the fact, you must not have been paying attention when this was going on.

    That being said, intent has everything to do with it. If the GS's conveyed what they believed to be true, and there is no reason to believe that they didn't...................................

    Then I guess we all sin in word act and deed each and every day.

    Amazing how those Baptist influences creep in. I'm guessing that you didn't even notice, and you are most welcome!
    If no one is talking about misleading questions, it is because you are misleading with the questions you choose to ask and not ask.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom
    Thanks David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Dance around all you want Tim, it wasn't a scandal. Shooting oneself in the foot is a tragedy, shooting someone else in the foot makes a scandal.

    Not blaming you, but did you notice how the conversation moves pretty close to instantly away from the real scandal where we screwed some old folks out of their retirement money? Seems to be the propensity here, it's not one that I will miss.

    Unbelievable. (1) The reason conversation moves away from "the real scandal" is because everyone agrees it was scandal. What more is there to discuss? (2) I am still not sure why discussing one scandal, means we can't discuss multiple scandals, or how debating whether or not A was a scandal implies that B was not?

    Claiming that NPH was not a scandal is akin to arguing that water is not really wet. There is evidence that a reasonable person could interpret to show the acts leading to the failure of NPH were unethical if not illegal. There is evidence that a reasonable person could interpret to show that the response to the failure of NPH was unethical. What is debatable is if the failure of NPH was based on unethical and/or illegal actions, and if the response to said failure was unethical. What is not debatable is if this was a scandal. The sky is blue, the water is wet, and NPH was a scandal. Whether or not someone accepts these realities says far more about the person than the realities.
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom
    Thanks Tim Troxler, Jim Poteet - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    The allegations that Gerald defrauded us out of 2 million dollars were proven to be false, the final report shows that he was up front about this. The allegations that Gerald was there to steal away the profitable parts of the business for himself, this was proven false. If I remember right, it was even alleged that there existed a beer cooler on the premises, Ryan Deo testified that this was false as well. Along with a myriad of other spurious allegations, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm ashamed of my participation in that thread or threads. I did seek out J.K. Warrick to apologize to him personally, and should I ever get the chance I will do so, it is a debt that I still owe him.

    Still not the point, not the point at all. The only thing scandalous was the gossip about the situation.
    Personally, I don't give a flying flip if there was a beer fridge or not. Many companies keep alcohol on premises. Those who brought the allegations were playing to old-time Nazarene sensitivities, and I passed them along as-is, though I didn't think it really helped the larger case they were trying to make.

    Nevertheless, the end result is that NPH's reserve fund of ~$6M was depleted during Smith's brief presidency. The cause of this depletion was related to the lease of a property owned by Smith, the payoff of the mortgage note on that property without receiving title to it, and the retention of Premier's headcount. Ask yourself, "where did the money go?" and "who presently holds the real estate assets that were paid off?"
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    Re: Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    "Is the Dan Bohi controversy over?

    Don't really know. Suspect it never will be.

    The really good news is that there will soon be a 12-step program developed for those addicted to asking that question.
    Laughing Karen Troxler, Marsha Lynn - thanks for this funny post

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