Cam where can I find this out please?are you willing to admit that it differs from the interpretation of the CotN as evidenced by the historic witness of our chosen faith tradition (Wesley/Anglican/Methodist)?
Cam where can I find this out please?are you willing to admit that it differs from the interpretation of the CotN as evidenced by the historic witness of our chosen faith tradition (Wesley/Anglican/Methodist)?
5.3. We believe that actual or personal sin is a voluntary violation of a known law of God by a morally responsible person. It is therefore not to be confused with involuntary and inescapable shortcomings, infirmities, faults, mistakes, failures, or other deviations from a standard of perfect conduct that are the residual effects of the Fall. However, such innocent effects do not include attitudes or responses contrary to the spirit of Christ, which may properly be called sins of the spirit. We believe that personal sin is primarily and essentially a violation of the law of love; and that in relation to Christ sin may be defined as unbelief.
I don't see it as saying anything different from the CN articles of faith having read them. In principle one needs the personal revelation regarding what one is to eat or not and in context, it applies to food offered to idols but I think that there is a primary requirement of whether the food is actually to be considered nutrition for the human body which would have been I would imagine much less of any issue in those days.are you willing to admit that it differs from the interpretation of the CotN as evidenced by the historic witness of our chosen faith tradition (Wesley/Anglican/Methodist)? We are speaking of interpreting ancient, God inspired (not dictated, according the CotN) text to current cultural issues. In other words your (or my) personal interpretation does not = God. I'm not saying its not ok to have a personal interpretation. I simply am willing to defer to the historic witness of my theological family over my own personal interpretation. Plus it was kind of demanded of me when I was ordained an elder
Many studies show that a great deal of what is considered food today, like what is available from stores in its adultered form, is not suitable as human food. Sugar is not for a start. One source says that if it was invented today it would be banned. So the argument is whether certain classes of 'food' can be properly named this. And that is not personal opinion - it is hard science.
But this subject is rather obsolete now - whether eating junk food is a sin, or eating too much of it, when someone admits that they have not yet died to the flesh. A person as such has no business to be up in the pulpit because what we will hear is self and flesh.
I am not a fundamentalist nor a Protestant in that I do not agree with sola scriptura which is open to any interpretation and hence the plethora of denominations. I believe that it is through direct revelation of the Holy Spirit that we are to know the truth not individual interpretation and those who do not have this witness as perfected individuals such as PB must follow the interpretation of the historic witness of the church and men such as he.we are speaking of interpreting ancient, God inspired (not dictated, according the CotN) text to current cultural issues. In other words your (or my) personal interpretation does not = God. I'm not saying its not ok to have a personal interpretation. I simply am willing to defer to the historic witness of my theological family over my own personal interpretation.
You have direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. Anyone's disagreement with you indicates the they do not have revelation.
Your position is unassailable because it is directly from God.
Obviously anyone's disagreement is not from God.
I hope I am wrong.
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Yes you are wrong - I make no claims for myself as it is only in those whom the church recognises as having that authority which you accept as the church authority if I am right. I am not in a position of leadership. I have revelation like anyone else but it must be subject to the headship of those who are in authority though we are taught to test that with scripture.. I will challenge the authority if I think they are wrong though and question their ES state..
Note: Not a man who has merely been trained at theology college and does not display the fruit of the Spirit and walk in the light. The originals in the CN were fully sanctified men so their word has weight and authority concerning interpreting scripture.
"We seriously discuss theology. The heavens laugh."
And I will admit a lot of it has to do with my weight, or more specifically, the way it made others treat me.
I have been heavy my WHOLE life and I have photos to prove it.
I was 200lbs at 11, 250 at 15. I don't know what I weighed before sixth grade when we had a school weight thing for the whole school, but it was enough to make people call me names and throw rocks at me.
I was moved from school to school in elementary as a child, bussed/driven to 3 different schools and walked to one. I kept being moved even tho my family had not moved, because the other children were abusive to me, and the adults, parents, teachers, principal didn't know what to do... so they moved me, hoping kids would be less crule in a different school.
It wasn't just the little things they did like leave mean notes taped to my desk saying my belly button was the grand canyon, or throw things at me like paper balls and erasers when the lights were dimmed for the overhead projector, or poke me with sharpened pencils, or calling me names and pretending to fall over in an earth quake every time I ran or jumped in PE or on the playground, it was also physically DANGEROUS things. Once during recess they chased me to the far end of the playground, when I was far away from teachers they all threw rocks at me, I remember turning my back to them and covering my face..this was second or third grade, I remember I was on the "little kid" side of the playground, and it was my first school. I got into fist fights (always started by someone else hitting or kicking me.) At first I told a teacher and ran away, but in 2nd grade or so my dad told me to start hitting back. I learned to fight back and hit back as hard as I could, aim for the face- specifically the nose.
They kicked the stall open whenever I went to the bathroom until I was told I could go to the bathroom during class without asking permission but not allowed to go during recess. (This was about or fourth grade, it was before I started Sierra Linda, but after leaving Rio Plaza).
They said I had AIDS (I was born in 1980 so AIDS was the "thing" when I was in elementary school), and even a friend said she couldn't play with me becuse she had a cut on her finger and "... just in case." They wouldn't touch play ground equipment I touched becuse it was "contaminated".
I was also abused by my mom's boyfriend (this had nothing to do with my weight, he did it to his own kids and my mom too. He was just a bully. Mom lost custody of us when he left bruises on me. (Mom was with him from about the time I was eight to twelve? Maybe? Nine to 13?)
When I was about 8 or 9 my dad was sent to the hospital and almost died, he was in intensive care for a long time, no idea how long, I was little and it was ages ago, I just remember it was sad and scary.
After he got out he was on insulin and I was told he was a type 1 diabetic and didn't produce insulin on his own anymore so these shots would give his body insulin for him. He was given a food chart and how many carbs each food had was given a point value (this is 1 carb serving, this is two, etc)
At this point my dad became obsessed with my weight. He didn't want me to get diabetes and since I was obese from before kindergarten he thought I needed to lose weight to prevent me getting diabetes.
His strategy was crule (at least that was how I felt at the time). He would still serve the family the same food- cheap starch, ramen noodles, pasta, white rice, bread.... a lot of chicken, whatever was on sale, but mostly starch because it could streatch a meal, you know, a dollar worth of meat and veggies is half a cup, a dollar worth of pasta is a giant bowl full. But he would serve me much smaller portions then everyone else. Also everyone else got seconds (if they wanted) and desert... I was often told I could have dessert only if I didn't finish my dinner, if I said I was still hungry he would say "no you're not" even tho I was. If I got seconds (enough to equal what everyone else was having) he would not actually stop me, but belittle me, tell me food was my 'best friend', tell me I was going to die, that I wasn't hungry, I just loved to eat, in an angry, aggressive, snide voice, then he glared at me and kept the comments up the whole time I ate it.
I was put on many different kinds of diets (small plate, slim-fast, the "teen age" diet, diabetic (lots of that pink fake sugar). Eventually it became a war, me wanting to feel full and nourished, and treated as equal to my brother and the rest of the family, and my dad trying to get me to lose weight (out of love, but with a terrible tactic). My grandma gave me whatever I wanted to eat and I would, yes I admit, gorge on all the treats everyone else got and I was denied when I was at her house. And I remember always being AFRAID of being hungry, because I would be belittled and mocked if I ate, and because hunger was physically painful to me (to this day my dad doesn't believe hunger feels painful to me and makes it hard for me to concentrate- tho he also thinks I am too hung up on whole grains and expensive food (he spends about 20 dollars a week on one person, I spend between 50 and 100 a week (depending on finances) for two people (plus occasionally feed my dad and Alora's friends)
I told him I need to eat lots of fiber and protine to feel full- he believes to this day that it's all in my head and one peice of white bread with peanut butter should keep me full for five hours and any hunger I feel is imagined, but he doesn't argue with me about it because we have been arguing this for 30 years and it got really bad when I was about 15... like bearly talking to each other bad... so we don't really fight about it or bring it up much any more.
(We have a good relationship now, I hope you can tell by the way I am always talking about doing things with/for my dad. My mom is no longer with Rob (her abusive ex), I see my dad most days a week, my mom a few times a month, and I get along with both my parents and am not angry with them or hold it against them. They were very broken people doing the best they could in a messed up world and a messed up situation, and I know now (now that I found Christ) that the same goes for my school mates in elementary school, they were just broken, hurting people, lashing out at a "safe" (acceptable by the other children) target because they were broken and hurting themselves)
My electric bill (my heat is all electric) averages 30 dollars year round. Both in summer when I use AC and in winter when I use heat. In months like April when I use no heat or cooling of any kind it is closer to 20-something.
(I do run heat when I have a fever and when my daughter comes in from the snow, or rain, or she or my carpet is wet)
So, if I didn't use heat at all, and didn't allow my 6 year old daughter to use it ever under any circumstance I could save up to 10 dollars a month.
I'm not bragging about being frugal, more like showing that the cuts left for me to make would be significant life style cuts, for example I could give up our bedrooms and have me and my daughter share a studio and save 100-150 a month or so, or I could shave 10 dollar off a week by giving up my once a week outing (such as driving to the mountains to hike, driving to Eugene for culture and to shop Trader Joe's, driving to the beach or lake for swimming and playing... but that would be a huge sacrifice for my life, and hurt my health by taking away a lot of my exercise and getting out of the house. I could take away the 100 a month or so I save... but with zero savings I am in huge trouble when my car breaks down or I get hurt or sick and need to miss work...
For the most part I do buy whole grains, lots and lots of fruits and veggies, lots of meat, but the difference we're talking about is 3.50/lb for 95% lean ground beef vs 7.99/lb for 85% lean grass fed beef. A dollar each bell peppers vs 2 dollar each bell peppers, 1.25/dozen eggs vs 3.99 a dozen eggs, $1/lb chicken vs $5/lb chicken, 2.50 a gallon milk vs 8 dollars a gallon milk.
I did look into it when I did whole 30, but decided it was outside my price range, personally
When I found God I started with God is love, and had had to solve a lot of my delemas about the problem of evil and such BEFORE I came to Christ.
So, in this I would say the message in regards to food and weight is to "eat as healthy as you can given your circomstance (finance/location/knowlage/etc). Don't gorge on sweets, don't stuff yourself, don't starve yourself and go hungry either, don't become a diet Nazi or drive your self crazy either by counting calories religiously or by only eating off a crazy limited list of very special food (unless you, PERSONALLY, want to), pray for guidance, balance your diet with other priorities such as work and family, and then whatever you weight is, accept it and be happy. Accept your circomsetance and live the life you were given."
I do wanna say that I agree with you that, for the most part, food is going to be healthier if you eat it the way God made it.
Taking all the nutrients and fiber out of a food (white flour, refined sugar, corn syrup for example) is not going to nourish your body the way the whole foods God made will.
And cows were designed to eat grass, and so natural raised cows are going to be healthier then grain fed cows, etc.
But knowing somethig is IDEAL doesn't make it POSSIBLE for everyone.
There are people who live in places without access to healthy, fresh, affordable food at all. There are places where there are no grocery stores or farmers markets within an accessible distance, their choices are either like McDonalds, or a corner liqueur store that sells some potato chips and milk.
Minimum wage often doesn't pay rent and utilities in many places. Parents are happy to fill their children's empty tummies with top ramen and rice, if they get a little grain fed chicken and canned green beans they're ahead of the game.
And there are people poor enough that they don't ask "what should I eat today?" they ask "WILL I eat today?"
And there are other things that are not how God intended. We are having a political discussion about refugees in our country at this moment, in God's ideal world there should be no need for refugees, people should be safe in their own countries.
Does this mean that refugees don't exsist?
War doesn't exsist?
Violence doesn't exsist?
Cancer doesn't exsist?
And people who can not afford the best possible food God has to offer don't exsist?
As for Food, Obesity, and Sin:
I would say, it all depends.
If you eat healthy, mostly whole grains, lots of fruit, veggies, lean meats...
Or whatever your conscience tells you
(I know people are vegans because they feel eating meat is morally wrong and bad for the planet, others who swear by keeping carbs down to under 20 a day and feel this is the healthiest way to eat, and still others who say all things in moderation)
Then you are not sinning, you're doing the best you can given what you have to work with (your individual finances, body, conviction, location, education, etc)...
But many times a treat or indulgence can be sin.
I will use a personal example.
When I was eating mostly Paleo on the way home from the beach (I had packed a healthy lunch for my daughter and I) I stopped at the creamery in the little coastal town 2 hours away and got us each an ice cream cone. This did not feel like "sin" there was no conviction, this was an "enjoy life" moment, it made our healthy, fun, weekend day just a little more fun.
Another day I had no intention of buying ice cream but I skipped lunch because I was super busy and forgot my lunch on the kitchen counter! (Doh! >_< ) and I valiantly avoided buying McDonalds at lunchtime!
On the way home I saw a sign with a big picture of ice cream advertising that it was 99 cents.... well, I actively knew I shouldn't eat it at the time, but I was so hungry, and I knew I had this and that to do and wouldn't get dinner on the table for another few hours.... so I gave in to temptation against my better judgement.
This was sin. Missing the mark.
I could have gone to a grocery store and bought an apple and a little single serving pack of nuts or somthing, I could have waited fifteen minutes and eaten my lunch at home. What made it a sin was not that it was ice cream per say, what made it sin was I knew I shouldn't have bought it at the time, and yet I bought it anyway.
Sometimes obesity is a thing you just have to live with, like cancer and you do your best.... but sometimes you're not doing your best, and usually you can tell the difference.
I would not say you need to force your body to be a size it refuses to be. I would not say you need to be a totally 100% nazi all the time for the rest of your life. If you make good choices and follow your conscience and are still fat then you will be what you will be. It probly isn't perfect, but like any disease, like kids born with downs syndrome, or one arm, it's just the way you are and something you need to live with
Just thinking out loud here, but I'm thinking this. Just because our weight and size is pretty much public information, doesn't mean that it is anybody's business other than our own. Obesity isn't a sin, not at all, no reason for guilt or shame, and it's surely wrong for someone to shame someone else because of their weight. Granted that it's perfectly fine for folks to get together and encourage one another. But shame? No that's just plain wrong!
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Sad beyond words for what you have been through, and will get back later to reply properly but just to say that, this conversation started because I said a man in public ministry, who is supposed to be preaching entire sanctification and therefore the freedom from sin which includes bondages, and addictions, and I do not see how anyone can think that being unable to get our weight to healthy levels is anything but in bondage, is preaching a contradictory message. It was by no means a criticism of any overweight persons in general and especially one in very very difficult cirncumstances, poverty etc. None of these apply to someonewho requests that they are invited to stay in a 'good' hotel and is obviously not going to be short of money.
It has been taken the wrong way. When the attacks came, I did become rather defensive I think and felt I had to justify the diet and say that anything is possible for us through God which is the truth, but at the same time acknowledging that many times in my life I was not able to carry out taking care of myself and I fully understand anyone who is in the position to be unable to do this and I only wanted to give them some hope. I do not apply this however to someone who takes the pulpit imagining that they can help others when patently unable to help themselves regarding the huge risk their weight is to their life expectancy and general health, things that put insurance costs up for everybody.
Please don't take it personally Emiko I think you are doing marvellously and as you say, healing yourself is most likely in the future for you.
Re: Fat Pastor
Here is my thought on this:
To know if a fat pastor is "fully sanctified" or not depends on what he eats, not what he looks like.
He may be addicted to sugar
He may eat (on occasions) until he feels sick and sluggish just because he enjoys the taste
He may eat when he isn't hungry, due to emotions like depression or stress...
Or he may not. He may eat whole foods, eat to his appetite, eat as God has lead him, and yet his body won't let go of the weight.
My body can lose weight just fine till I get to 260 (my highest was 350) for some reason my body will not go below my highschool weight no matter what I do.
There is research that indicates your body can settle and will fight tooth and nail to hold the weight and believe for life it is starving if you go below a certain weight. There is research people (and mice) obese from childhood can not maintain the weight loss even on their (mice) natural healthy diet unless calories are severely restricted to a starvation level.... and then they will, if free access to food is ever re-established, eat back to their childhood size, no matter how long the lower weight is forcefully maintained.
It is possible a fat pastor's diet is more squeaky clean then anyone in the congregation who is half his size, it is possible he eats healthy food in healthy amounts but his body will not drop the weight because of damage being obese for years (life?) has already done on his body, or because of hormones, genes, or other non-food addiction reasons.
If a pastor had a different disease and God didn't cure it, from cancer to the common cold, and the pastor is doing everything right but the illness remains is God obligated to cure him supernaturally just because he is doing everything right?
Interestingly enough, there is ample evidence that "dieting" and calorie restriction (severe) actually make our body think we are starving and conserve energy even more, making us fatter. Which is why my doc put me on an eating plan (not a diet!) that has all the needed nutrients. She said not worry of the eating plan and exercise made my weight go up down or sideways, no matter which I would be healthier.
I'm blessed because I have a fridge freezer and other freezer and usually buy "tough" beef cuts and pressure them for half the cost of ground beef, or cook double meals and freeze one, etc, which allows me to eat "easily".
But back to the OP: my son knows there are places to go and people to see that will absolutely derail him spiritually and he will be right back in the dark place no matter what meds he is on. To stay sane and not hurting anyone else he has to avoid those people and places. I know there are foods I need to avoid if I want to maintain eating healthy, places to avoid, triggers to avoid, and also use will power some.
I would say in the same exact way, a Christian struggling with SSA is going to have to avoid certain places, sights, smells, people, etc that would trigger a lapse. We all have our temptations, we probably all have them from dna, we all need both grace and determination, and the worst thing any of us can do to ourselves is justify our sins, and willfully doing anything that can harm us physically, mentally, or spiritually is sin.
Just my thoughts.
So right. I should have been calling mine an eating plan not a diet. The word diet is often taken the wrong way. It is about healing the body and gaining health and losing weight may not be a part of it at first. That's why I don't weigh myself.eating plan (not a diet!
Absolutely! Eating the store foods that most people live on and get sick on, is going to harm our bodies. No doubts there. Sadly in America these foods are very adulterated with for example artificial folic acid. People with a common genetic mutation, cannot metabolise this folic acid and it builds up in the system and leads to cancer. All fo this information is available on the net.We all have our temptations, we probably all have them from dna, we all need both grace and determination, and the worst thing any of us can do to ourselves is justify our sins, and willfully doing anything that can harm us physically, mentally, or spiritually is sin.
There is also the problem of the use of Roundup and other pesticides and herbicides. In the US it is allowed that the term organic can apply when a product is not 100%.
Our minds are so bent on sin that it will get up to the most devious ways of excusing it, like saying things are not sin when they are, and having a negative mindset that disallows for God intervening and making things possible - not WoF though.
I guess we have different ideas as to what 'freedom in Christ means'. I don't see the Lord as doing anything that is not perfect in its outcome. It is mens attitudes that restrict Him and that is not about miracles it is about the laws of nature which are often misunderstood by the science of the past..
I do not hold to any WoF doctrines or practices, if it is found in other religions and particularly eastern religions and speaking in tongues comes under that, I will have nothing to do with it, or mind over matter theories though there is some truth in the fact that our attitudes are important for mental health. Which then affects the body. WoF takes this to the extreme though.
The problem is Emiko, that a lot of the so called facts we are given by authorities are based on out of date and dodgy research. We can easily find out online how the conventional weight loss advice fails. But that does not mean that any attempts to lose weight will fail, when it is based on microbiology and especially the latest on the gut microbiome If we have the bad guys in there our weight loss attempts will fail. We need to be eating so that our hormones will become corrected and most eating plans are not able to do this. But all improvements help.
As we have access to the mind of Christ as believers, we can trust God to lead us in this huge field of conflicting advice to that which will benefit us on a personal level and make changes that will lead us in the right direction. This is the meaning of the verse ' a lamp to lighten our feet', God leads us to what is good physically, mentally and spiritually if we do not put up roadblocks, and even if we have not reached the point where it is possible to make the major changes needed, we can do small things that will lead to bigger thigs if we are receptive.
This recovering of ones health so that the body is ready for the spiritual warfare that comes with the territory of a gospel preacher, is something that should be done before a man is ready for ministry if he is to guide others.
The amount of terrible suffering you went through by the abuse of others over your weight must have caused a lot of damage. Thank God that He is in the business of healing it! What I found was that it took the healing of my emotions from the damage done to me, before I could start physical healing. It is said that the body will use its energy for the emotional upkeep before the physical and that is why stress is so damaging. It took a long time for this to happen before I could be rid of faulty attiudes and negativity caused by the damage before I was ready to take care of my body. I did try in the past, but it took some serious changes for the healing to really get going.
Well I do agree with accepting your circumstances SO long as they are within God's original plan for your life. But most of the time we get where we are by wrong decisions made while we were or are in an unsanctified state. Sorting out the mess and the resulting ill health is a major undertaking as the way through it is fraught with difficulties.So, in this I would say the message in regards to food and weight is to "eat as healthy as you can given your circomstance (finance/location/knowlage/etc). Don't gorge on sweets, don't stuff yourself, don't starve yourself and go hungry either, don't become a diet Nazi or drive your self crazy either by counting calories religiously or by only eating off a crazy limited list of very special food (unless you, PERSONALLY, want to), pray for guidance, balance your diet with other priorities such as work and family, and then whatever you weight is, accept it and be happy. Accept your circomsetance and live the life you were given.
So the basic requirement is to see that we are functioning way less than the way God desires for us and by the example given by the early disciples and indeed by the founders of the Nazerene church who were living in that state especially Phineas Bresee. If we settle into where we are, then we will go down. We need to be seeking God and His righteousness with our whole beings so that the great work of recovery can really get underway and big changes are possible.
Then comes the work full steam, and the very deep healing that is needed and yes if we are working with God to heal our bodies, we will have to centered on what we are eating and hopfully not be mislead by faulty research and current popular advice.. As I said it is not about counting calories and weighing. It is about correcting all things in our lifestyle that are not health promoting. Getting out in the sun and ignoring the advice that it is bad for us on our bare skin and eyes is very important.
For the very sick in body it is necessary to be eating against what your family and friends eat maybe for life. I must do this. But it is important for me to live as long as possible with God's grace as He has put so much into healing me and I can help others especially about the necessity entire sanctification which unfortunately for, this denomination has badly lost its way.. This is very sad as it is the only denomination today that has the chance of going back to its roots and seeing revival.
Even Paul was left with a "thorn in his flesh" which he prayed repeatedly to have removed but God chose to leave Paul in his weakness.
Paul was a leader of many churches, and yet God did not make him perfect.
If the pastor has overcome his food addiction, and eats as God leads him in his own conscience, but dispite making good, healthy choices he can not get below a certain weight (prehaps, like me, he can not lose beyond what he weighed at age 15) then I wouldn't say he should be prevented from leading or teaching just because God has not supernaturally healed his body of permanent damage it sustained in childhood.
Weight gain, especially in early childhood, can cause perminant metabolic damage, it is well documented and well studied, and for many the only way to perminantly lose weight is surgery, or severe calorie restriction and constant intense hunger for life.
Not saying people can't lose weight on a healthy diet/life style change, they can, and do! You did, for example.
But what if they lost 100lbs with diet and exercise, and maintained the 100lb loss, yet still fall in a weight category that is considered "obese" dispite a diligent, even *perfect* diet?
Some people weigh 500, 600, 700 lbs, and have weight loss surgery, their stomachs reduced to the size of an egg, and reroute their intestines so they only absorb a fraction of the calories they take in, they eat 1200 calories a day (maybe absorb about 900) of mostly meat and veggies for life... yet they still weigh 300 lbs.
Now, these people are happy to have lost 200, 300, even 400 lbs and kept it off, they speak of getting their life back, being able to move around and work and wear clothes bought at a normal store.
But for them losing 300 lbs is all their body can do.
There comes a point in which diet and exercise alone cannot lead to a "normal" weight (at least not while still providing enough calories to sustain normal function, and a normal healthy lifestyle). At this point God would have to -supernaturally- change their bodies to get them below a certain weight.
And I can see why God would choose to call to leadership someone who had struggled in this area, overcome their food or sugar addiction, and yet, dispite significant weight loss still remain technically obese. To give hope to people struggling with their weight, teach acceptance and understanding to those who do not struggle with their weight. Maybe his condition increases his compassion, or increases the need for compassion and understanding in those around him. Maybe a fat pastor is just what his congregation needs.
God may have reasons to call a blind pastor and not supernaturally heal him of his blindness (even if he caused his own blindness by running with scissors as a child), and God may have reasons to call a fat pastor even if he didn't supernaturally heal him of his obesity.
And yet God does not always heal people, even devout Christians, once they change their ways.
I knew a lady who had cirrhosis of her liver caused by years of heavy drinking. When I met her she was already dying, she had completely given up drinking, had not one drop of alcahol the entire time I knew her, yet her liver was not healed and she died.
I know people (seniors I work for in my senior living home) with mental/brain damage caused by accessible drug use, they have not done drugs of any kind in DECADES yet they have not reached full healing.
Someone was thrown from their car do to not wearing a seatbelt. Their fault for not being safe, yet dispite religiously wearing a seatbelt for years they still can not walk.
Sometimes the damage is done.
For the most part, Brenda, I agree with you that most of the food available to Americans is not as healthy as it could/should be.
Refined sugar is an addictive drug
Refined flour is like taking everything good out of a food and eating what's left behind.
Often they take all or most of the nutrients and fiber out of food, and often they do it on purpose to make food more addictive but less satisfying/filling so you'll buy and eat more and they can make more money.
I am not arguing about that.
Mostly I am saying two things:
1) not all people can eat an optimal diet do to location or finances
2) some people are obese and for so long or to such an extent that diet alone will not be able to cure them.
Let me tell you about Dr Terry Wahls, a medical doctor who was diagnosed with Progressive Multiple Sclerosis, (plenty of info online about her)and ended up in a reclined wheel chair. She went to the internet to find out how she could relieve her suffering as medial science said she was incurable. She worked out an autoimmune diet consisting of a lot of green vegetables, eat and fish (there are a few different versions, some stricter than others) Within 10 months she was riding a bike and is now touring the world educating people on how this diet removes all the obstacles that stop the body from healing itself (this is how God made it).
MS is a disease where the immune system destroys the myelin sheath around the nerves and the Progressive type is considering to be the worst. Incurable damage you would say but Dr Wahls proved them wrong and is now funding her own research to prove the diet works. She looks younger than she has for a long time and is without MS symptoms leading a fully active life. And she is not a Christian.
No one can say how far things have to go before it can be said that there is too much damage to heal. As far as damage goes, my own case is pretty severe, having had mercury poisoning which put me in hospital at 8 months old from medications they were giving babies for teething problems. Mercury is the second most toxic substance known to man and some people cannot detox it out of their bodies. I was left with endocrine and immune deficiency and have never known what healthy feels like.
At he age of 40 I suffered severe pesticide exposure which cause me further damage, once again classed to be incurable. Then 10 years later I contracted Lyme Disease for which I am unable to take antibiotics or in fact any medication at all as my body is so sensitive to just about anything. At my very worst I was bedbound and needed a carer to wash my hair as I did not have the strength to raise my arms, shop for me and cook and clean. For a while I could not wash with tap water because of the chemicals it contains. Later I developed 5 autoimmune diseases , including one that destroys the thyroid gland.
I have fought against my illnesses with natural means out of necessity and have experimented with various eating plans I will call them seeing as people here seem to equate diet with weight loss alone. Eventually I found the autoimmune diet a year ago. Since adopting this diet I have got my life back and this past year went abroad for a holiday in the sun. A lot of my symptoms, supposedly retractable have gone and I am even reversing the sign of aging (I am 67 nearly).
So when people tell me they are damaged too much I despair for them. God gave our bodies amazing abilities to heal if we give them the environment they need and any progress is good, even if one is not in the position to adopt the full diet due to finances etc. But there are many people in life who listen to the pharma led idea of incurable conditions. It is just beyond sad when Christians do this and deny the power of God to help them and not with faith alone - there is a need to reverse the causes of the condition, and it takes more than faith.
If someone says they are incurable then guess what? They are, but it is their negativity that stops them heal.
It is merely an assumption that Paul's problem was a sin. Some say it was a wife lol but I don't accept that one. We just dont know what it was, but it is bringing a contradiction to scripture to say that he was not perfected in Christ.Even Paul was left with a "thorn in his flesh" which he prayed repeatedly to have removed but God chose to leave Paul in his weakness.
Paul was a leader of many churches, and yet God did not make him perfect.
Paul's view of himself is quite contrary to this. He viewed himself as holy
and blameless. In 1 Thessalonians 2:10 he says, "You are witnesses, and God
also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you
who believe." Charles Finney clearly proves that Paul was not only not a
sinner, but that he was entirely sanctified.
However, you might be wondering about the present tense in the passage.
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus
came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief" (1 Timothy 1:15).
Why did Paul use "I am" rather than "I was"? Let me quote from the
introduction of the New American Standard Version, "Greek authors frequently
used the present tense for the sake of heightened vividness, thereby
transporting their readers in imagination to the actual scene at the time of
John is completely correct, "Paul is simply saying that he formerly lived a
life of terrible sin, and in his own estimation his former life of sin
amounted to him being the chief of sinners." The apostle Paul used the
present tense because he was transporting his readers in imagination to the
actual scene at the time of occurrence. Paul picture himself killing the
Christians, surely this is what he had in mind.
I don't believe that Paul was referring to himself as the chief of sinners
for the purpose of acknowledging his capacity to sin as demonstrated by his
life prior to conversion and his continuing crucifixion of his old ways.
Rather, he was demonstrating that "that Christ Jesus came into the world to
save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15). His point is Christ's ability to save, even
to save someone who was a murderer of Christ's own followers. The point is
not Paul condition, but Christ's ability to reach even the lowest of
sinners, of whom Paul was one. It also points out Paul's humility, he
realized what he would be without the grace of God.
There are further verses to say that Paul was ES'ed and considering that this denomination has it in its Article of Faith, I take it that you do nto hold with that either, or you have a different interpretation of what sin is?
What you are talking about is anecdotal evidence.
I am not saying it doesn't ever sometimes work, but at the same time you also can't say it is ALWAYS 100% guaranteed to cure everyone no exceptions.
There is another guy who has cured cancer with a diet of vegetable juice. It worked for some people, but it doesn't always work for everyone.
Take my cousin as an example of this:
Her first pregnancy she had terrible morning sickness. She couldn't hold anything down, it was relentless, all day and all night. She was losing weight when she should have been gaining. Then she read about someone who went on a juice fast and cured his autoimmune disease, and another that could cure cancer, so she tried it for her morning sickness- and it worked! After the nausia went away with time she could add a little fish and maybe a few nuts for protine.
Baby number two come along, she got super sick again and all the terrible symptoms, but she knew just what to do! She went strait to the juicer with all the right kinds of veggies...
And it didn't work. She threw up all pregnancy. I guess hormones are different from baby to baby.
One person suffering migraines is cured by giving up coffee, another is cured by taking caffeine supplements.
One person lost pounds and kept it off on a strict vegan diet.
Another person lost weight on the zero carb 100% meat, egg yolk, and animal fat diet.
Both swear by their approach, and both approaches work for some people.
I am not saying it is 100% impossible for any fat person to perminantly lose weight no matter what they do!
But when you think you have a "magic cure" that works 100% of the time on 100% of people you end up "blaming the victim" when it doesn't work for *everyone*
If you look at someone who is eating 100% perfect organic grass fed Paleo and they weigh 50lbs more then someone of the same height who lives on Cheetos and diet coke does this mean the Cheetos and diet coke person is more holy and perfect and Godly then then the disciplined, 100% perfect Paleo person who never ever cheats? Or is there something else going on here?
I am not assuming Paul "thorn" was sin. That never even actually occured to me, although I suppose it is possible now that you mention it.
I was assuming it was a HEALTH CONDITION.
For example if his "thorn" was a health problem, chronic pain, or physical ailments it relates to obesity which may be a chronic physical condition which God does not see fit to lift from you even if you are made morally perfect, cured of food addiction, and following a strict, clean, perfect diet with a healthy relationship to food.
Or, if the thorn was outside/environmental forces such as persecution, imprisonment, or mistreatment by the Jews he used to be aligned with, that could be a person for who a diet of flawless, clean, high nutrient food might cure, but is not given access to flawless food, maybe called to work in an inner city and accept a small wage, but that is where he/she is most needed.
Or, I guess, it could be lingering sin, which would equate to lingering food addiction, tho that hadn't actually occured to me when I used him as an example.
Oh yes, there are many ways that people have improved themselves and over many years, l have tried loads of them myself. I went strict macrobiotic for a time and had a good improvement. For cancer, there is no simple solution as there are many different kinds of cancer and different stages and the autoimmune protocol will most likely not be enough for that. Other methodologies will be required.
But for illnesses that involve inflammation and autoimmunity, including obesity which will result in those due to leaky gut syndrome, there really is no other answer when it becomes advanced because the diet is tailored to the person . Once you cut out the main culprits for triggering autoimmunity because the gut barrier has been breached, the body itself reacts strongly to any remaining allergens.
You learn to read your body like a book and become your own physician.
Dr Wahls is conducting her own trials to prove that this diet works for MS. Of course there is no guarantee. That is impossible even for pharmaceuticals. There are always unknown elements as to why some heal and some do not. Sometimes there is permanent damage but the diet will be highly likely to cause significant improvement.
Of course if anyone goes into it thinking l don't have a guarantee this will work, their course they will have little chance as they will not have the determination to stick it during tough times like family occasions. And fir Christians of course they will fail if they doubt that God will help them. Negative people always fail and then blame something else but their attitudes.
It's not all about weight, you seem fixated about it. If you are healthy and fit weight varies. But you can plainly see if someone is healthy and fit and once they get past a certain weight for them, they cannot be. As Christians we owe ourselves to be as fit as soldiers are required to be.
You are looking at someone on the outside and making assumptions about their thoughts and their actions and motivations.
There are fat people out there who do everything right. Who eat right, and exercise and go to heroic measures to maintain significant weight loss, who's diet is healthier then any of the skinny people they come in contact with every day. Though they may still be clinically obese, they eat healthier then anyone.
It is like saying if someone smoked for 30 years, then quit, and then they were diagnosed with lung cancer, you would absolutely insist they are sneaking cigarettes even if they are not.
It is like saying if someone had a gamboling addiction and gamboled away everything they owned and amassed huge amounts of debt, then hasn't gamboled for years but is still living in poverty due to the actions of their past you would assume they are sneaking off to gambol.
It's like saying if someone used to be promiscuous and then lived a life of absolute celibacy (or devotion to one married spouse for life) then a year later they still have an STD they must be sneaking out to have sex with random people.
You are putting weight in a special unique category saying that if you do everything right but are still physically not cured then you are not walking with Christ, becuse if you were, and yet it turned out not to be enough to cure you, then God would supernaturally heal you.
But He doesn't. People die of starvation, or cancer, of all sorts of things, walking with God does NOT absolutely guarantee he will cure you of all physical ailments, obesity being just one amoung many.
And just because you are cured of an addiction and walking with God does not mean all the damage of a life time will nessesarily vanish like smoke, obesity being just one of them.
I just thought of a question here that relates perfectly.
If a mouse is made obese for science (through feeding it msg as a baby, force feeding it sugar water as a baby, depriving it of letpin, nicking it in the hypothalamus, breeding it with a generic predisposition for obesity, etc) then after it is obese it is put in a cage with only access to healthy mouse food but let it eat as it will, and the mouse remains obese, is the mouse sinning?
If they take the obese mouse, forcefully restrict it's calories, and then once it has been at a healthy weight for a determined period of time, they allow it free access to the healthy mouse food and it regains the weight is the mouse sinning?
Are all the mice in these studies willfully sinning against God?
My friend has a very sinful cat. Dispite being on a low calorie, indoor, high quality catfood (Iams, which is a very expensive brand for my friend's budget), and not being allowed any people good, the cat chooses to cling to his sinful nature, refusing to lose weight.
Cats are covered by the atonement?
(Really, sort of sorry for this. Just checked in after finishing a tax return and really should have gone to bed. I can resist anything but temptation.)
I must not be explaining myself very well. I apologise. I think you are getting mixed up with WoF. There are two issues that I don't seem to be able to get across.You are putting weight in a special unique category saying that if you do everything right but are still physically not cured then you are not walking with Christ, becuse if you were, and yet it turned out not to be enough to cure you, then God would supernaturally heal you.
But He doesn't. People die of starvation, or cancer, of all sorts of things, walking with God does NOT absolutely guarantee he will cure you of all physical ailments, obesity being just one amoung many.
And just because you are cured of an addiction and walking with God does not mean all the damage of a life time will nessesarily vanish like smoke, obesity being just one of them.
1)What is common knowlege about diet and weight loss is wrong.
2)What is considered to be possible in reversing serious illness that are the result of inflammation and autoimmunity, and these conditions are are part and parcel of being fat, is wrong.
If someone follows current advice there is a high chance they will fail and put the weight back on and remain sick which is the real reason they are fat. They are biochemically malfunctioning and their metabolism is not working. Weight loss programs and even healthy perfect clean foods (in the way it is understood) do not fix this. They will often just give up at one point. I sympathise.
But I also get on a Hashimotos's Thyroiditis forum of thousands of people and they come along and have tried all sorts of things and cannot lose their weight. They learn about how autoimmunity requires a specific diet cutting out even the things that people consider healthy like nuts, legumes and seeds. They do this and they lose weight and look like different people after 2 months. For some their weight loss is slower but they still improve amazingly in a short time. It was their gut barrier that had to be dealth with by foods that do not trigger the immune response.
Many are doing this and are not Christians. Many Christians think that doing such things is new agey and continue to be deceived by Satan into listening to the advice of corrupt medical, health advice, manufacturing and pharmaceutical companies who want to people to become addicted to refined carbohydrates, become sick, believe that they cannot be healed by doctors who only offer them pain killers and steroids, while there is a wealth of studies out there that show that many conditions can reverse themselves but the more severe they are the stricter measures must be taken .
That is not to say that all medical conditions can be healed, I am talking about autoimunity and obesity that results from it. The body stops being able to burn fat no matter how godly and strict the person is, unless they tackle the source of the problem - leaky gut.
Many say that Paul had an eye problem - well I have my doubts about that as he was a tent maker by trade and would need good eyesight and the verses cited might just have been a temporary problem. Basic fact is that we do not know what it was that irritated him.
That poor cat by the way was probably suffering from pesticide poisoning from flea spray. And ill health from being confined indoors.
For the spiritual aspect, I am saying that very few believers are entirely sanctified, and once they are, the barriers that were there before and which allowed Satan to decieve them are lifted, and they are 'in the light' in all ways, and if they have been listening to bad science they will be able to correct their bodily ills, so much as able, though there are conditions that cannot be removed and unforunately God does not seem to heal miraculously much these days.
They could also be in the jungle and not have access to enough food for their complete nourishment though what they will be eating is far superior to much of the western world.
Anyway, since DB has said that he has not died to himself, the focus of the argument cannot be about him any more. I was right about him after all.
ps no such thing as healthy manufactured pet food.
Just some things to toss into the mix: we have 3 medical access points for primary care in our town. 2 continue offering the advice Brenda is deeming bad science. The 3rd is saying exactly what she is saying, only sans the spiritual element. Many people are finding it is working. Now "it" varies depending on what is wrong with the person. The lifestyle plan for a person with no auto immune issues but damaged arteries and lungs from smoking or poor habits is on a different plan than the person with rheumatoid arthritis (autoimmune) and some forms of low thyroid, also in those forms auto immune.
They do teach that diet and exercise will not cure everything. But they also teach that there are some supposedly incurable diseases that can be cured, some put into remission, and some the discomfort relieved and progress slowed by a healthy eating plan and tailored exercise program. No matter which eating plan is prescribed there are some simple basics that actually reduce, not raise, the cost of food. Step one is cooking instead of fast food, restaurant food, or processed food. Excuses aside, that really is not too difficult or expensive for anyone still healthy enough to function in life, such as hold a job or raise kids or travel or whatever. Often that alone is enough to quell type 2 diabetes, auto immune responses, reduce blood pressure without meds, and lower heart disease risk. Beyond that it will be tailored to fit the person's health.
As just my personal experience, but there seems to be evidence to prove it out there, yes, bodies come in all sizes and shapes and can be healthy at a variety of bmi's. That much is dna. But the normal course of events is that if we are eating properly and moving enough, we generally will not be morbidly obese. As the charts show, a woman my age and height depending on bone structure may be healthy at 125lbs or 165lbs. But if I weighed 250lbs the truth is that I most likely would be taking in the wrong food, not moving enough, or both.
Emiko, your arguments re weight are valid up to a point, but only to a point. Just as no one should assume a heavier person is not eating right or moving right, neither should we decide not to eat right and move right because it comes with no guarantee of making us slim.
And I will go out on a limb (Billy don't you dare cut it off since it could be one you tend to frequent ) and say gluttony and sloth are sins every bit as sinful as the hot button sins we love to condemn today, but are surely more socially acceptable.
And fake foods? What else to call it when a potato is ground up, boiled, mashed, mixed with a bunch of chemicals, extruded, flash dried into shape, heavily salted, and sold at a ridiculous price as a "vegetable." Actually, just nuking, boiling, frying, or baking it would have left it very nutritious, more tasty, and for many the best alternative to Prozac.
Last edited by Lucas Finch; February 20th, 2017 at 05:41 PM.
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I did some research on Terry Wahls last night.
There is also a competing diet called Swank for MS, it also advocates several servings a day (not sure if it is also 9 like Wahls or not because I didn't read it as carefully, but it does emphasise leafy greens and rainbow colored fruits and veggies, not sure about the sulfurous ones tho) but outside the fruits and veggies part it is mostly opposite, very low fat, no meat, lots of starch, corn, grain, beans, legumes etc.
Of course they BOTH advocate to limit or eliminate highly refined processed foods
On message boards people have tried both, and both seem to be equally effective. Neighter completely 100% cured everyone (or even a majority of people) who have tried it, but most DO have a relatively high (tho not 100%) rate of causing at least SOME improvements in symptoms, sometimes significant.
There didn't seem to be, from what I saw, a strong indication that one or the other was better for everyone, but both had at least SOME bennifit for most people who have tried it.
Whole30, which I have done twice, is an elimination diet designed to find food sensitivities in people. They do talk a lot about the potential for inflammation from various foods for various people, and for some the weight falls off, others lose no weight at all.
For me it had very little effect on my weight (about 4lbs the first week, then my weight stayed stable) but it DID, I will grant, cut down on sugar cravings and hunger significantly.
Your diet worked for you, and that is terrific, but it is not guaranteed to work for everyone. It DOESN'T work for everyone, and is NOT guaranteed to cure obesity.
Let's be generous and assume it CAN cure 50% of all people with obesity, I personally think the percentage is probably a lot lower, but I will be generous for the sake of argument.
But what about the 50% it doesn't cure?
I think there is a lot we agree on.
1) We, as Christians, should do our best to take care of our bodies, both because our bodies are holy and beautiful and belong to God, but also to enable us to best do the good work that God has given us here to do here on Earth.
2) Whatever God has called you to do, from doctor, to stay at home mom, to pastor, to caregiver, to janitor, to singer in the choir, you will be better equiped to do the best job possible if you are in the beat health possible.
3) God gave us certain foods full of vitamins, minerals, micro and macro nutrients, and the things we need to be healthy. Generally, the way God made them (or as close as possible) is the very best way for us to consume them. When foods are heavily processed and all the vitamins, minerals, and fiber are taken out, they lack vital nutrients our bodies need to function. And THEN they are filled with strange chemicals, addictive substances like refined sugar and msg, and bad for you things like trans fats, etc, they are made even LESS healthy.
4). This is the food MOST Americans eat MOST of the time.
5) The food companies do this on purpose. They don't care about your health, they only care about making money, so if something is cheap and addictive they will fill food with it to make you buy more. If taking out fiber and nutrients will leave you always hungry or cause you to over eat all the better for them (you will buy more and they will make more money). And they will go out of their way to suppress information about how unhealthy it is rather then lose profits. They spend huge amounts of money to disprove or confuse research, to avoid needing to clearly lable what is in food, to effect rules and regulations etc.
-But here is where we DISAGREE (as far as I can tell)-
1) Everyone, no matter who you are, what you make, what your circumstances has access to and can afford the highest quality of food. If you live in a food desert, after paying your bills like electricity and rent, you can still feed a family of 4 free range, wild, grass fed, organic food shipped in from the internet for under 20 dollars a week!
This is just not been my expirence. Please post the webpage where I can get quality free range meat for under 3.00/lb, raw 100% grass fed milk for under 4$/a gallon, with very low to free shipping cost.
I am actually very interested in this kind of food. Recently 100% grass fed, no hormone, ground lamb was on sale for half off (because it expired that day!) With a coupon for an additional $2.50 off. I BOUGHT ALL THEY HAD AND FROZE IT!! (And my freezer is small)
Another time I did that I got sick, but didn't complain because I wasn't 100% sure it was the meat. No problems with the lamb so far.
2) That your "magic diet" is 100% guaranteed to cure obesity. That's just not the reality.
It worked for you, personally, and I can see you are very passionate about it, but obesity is a complicated disease with numerous causes. Some people do not make leptin, some have a low functioning thyroid, some have food addiction, or sugar addiction, or eating disorders, for some it is auto-immune, etc.
Also the prognosis is complicated. Studies show that after a certain point the body will fight tooth and nail to regain the weight. Your "magic diet" is not really magic and it will not work for 100% of people guaranteed.
Yes, it may fix obesity in a few,
and yes, it is defiantly healthier then a diet of highly processed, low nutrient "fake food",
and even if it doesn't lead to a "NORMAL" BMI it will probably increase you health over all and lead to at least SOME weight loss in most if not all people coming off a Standard American Diet.
But if someone starts off at 500lbs eating unhealthy processed junk food, soda, chemicals, chips... and changes to a healthy diet (in this case organic, free range, strict Paleo, just like your want) and loses 200lbs, but are still 5'7" and weigh 300lbs, you need to have grace for that person and aknowlage their accomplishments and call them an unqualified success for the tremendous thing they have accomplished, not a failure because the lowest their body will personally go in a sustainable, healthy way, is not to your standard.
3) That weight should be your number one priority at ALL COSTS if you are significantly obese.
Let's assume that I am one of the people that if I ate 100% Paleo and 100% clean 100% of the time, forever, I would be cured...
Should I give up my daughter's healthcare, give up our home, and live in my car, but eat high quality food exclusively?
Do I hoard the expensive free range eggs for myself and feed by daughter the cheap ones?
Or should I seek BALANCE? Should I balance my diet among other priorities like raising my daughter?
Or if someone needs to utterly obsess to maintain a lower weight. Weather by counting calories, or being crazy super strict (oh God!!! My salad had non organic carrots and half a tomato! My life is over! My diet it ruined! The world will come to an end!!!). And obsess and worry and panic about every bite in every situation for life?
Or, if someone does it through sheer white knuckle will power, they live with constant hunger and a slow matabolism making them feel cold and tired all the time, but hey keep their weight down.
If the goal, for a Christian, is to be in the best position to do God's good work on Earth, then you need to have balance. Subjecting your family to abject poverty to be thin is sinful, obsessing over you diet does not leave your mind space to grow in other Kingdom pursuits or to concentrate on your good work for God's kingdom. Exercising five hours a day takes away from your family and your ability to have the time and energy to do God's work, and forcing a lower weight then your body will allow can leave you just as sick and just as unable to do God's good work as being fat did.
Obesity needs to be balanced with other priorities and situations. You want to be the best person you can be OVERALL, not the thinnest person you can be at ANY COST.
If you are thin, but neglecting your family, living in poverty, and obsessed with food, you are not a better version of you then if you were heavy but with a balanced life.
Note: more on the subject but no time now. I know I didn't address everything.
I also agree that they are DELIBERATELY made additive and lacking in satiety.
And that if everyone ate only home cooked, whole food they would be healthier.
My main argument is that her diet isn't a magical 100% guarantee the way she seems to think it is, and if you drop 100lbs through hard work and cook 90% of your own food, and choose whole grins and lean meats and healthy options when ever possible, you should be congratulated for your hard work and diligence and perseverance, not beaten down for your lack of reaching a normal MBI.
So, a steak cut is 4.99/lb but a grass fed organic cut of the same is $20/lb, or I bought some 95% lean ground beef for 3.50/lb, but the 80% lean grass fed ground beef is 7.99/lb. See?
If you take out all the cheap starch, double the cost of veggies, and triple the cost of meat it's gonna be really expensive.
I agree that when you can afford it it IS the way God designed a cow to eat and as such, so the meat will most likely be more nutritious, but I can not personally afford it 100% of the time, and neighter can most people I know.
But if I make a hamburger of 95% lean ground beef, served on a whole wheat bun, and loaded with veggies, bell pepper, sprouts, tomato, onion, and a slice of avacado it will be more nutritious, more filling, much tastier and the same price if not even cheaper as a greasy, dry, sugar and preservative filled, white bun with extra corn syrup McDonalds burger.
Though I do admit that I occasionally buy fast-food when I am out of the house for long periods of time. Working on that. Fast food isn't cheap compared to home made versions of the same. You just need to always plan ahead when you will be out of the house all day and I often mis-calculate how long I will be out of town and neglect to bring a lunch.
But once you have BEEN obese for many years (a life time) this changes.
When I saw the biggest loser study I was very discouraged. I looked and looked for a study that did not hold bad news for someone who had been significantly obese since early childhood. I kept finding research always lead to the same, disappointing conclusions.
So please, if you know of a major study on people who have been obese since early childhood that does NOT show any perminant metabolic damage after significant weight loss of over 100lbs please send me the link to the study.
(I know there is anecdotal evidence that goes both ways, but I would like to see even one encouraging peer reviewed study done on people who have been significantly obese since early childhood and lost several hundred lbs that had encouraging (not deeply discouraging) results)
When I was at my lowest (I'm not there now, tho neighter am I at my highest, I am in the middle) I followed weight watchers, I ate TONS of fruit and veggies, I ate mostly skinless boneless chicken breast, 95% lean ground beef, fish, chick peas and hummus, fat free milk, plain Greek yogurt, eggs, and ONLY 100% whole grain bread and pasta.
I did have a little peice of dark chocolate every so often (like a bliss square), and maybe twice a month or so a star bucks (small) or other "treat".
I did Zumba 3 days a week, lifted heavy weights 2 days a week (20lbs per arm) and hiking, swimming, beach or other fun physical outing on Saturday.
Eventually I gave up sugar trying to break through the "plateau" but my weight still didn't go down (tho I liked how an apple tasted like desert! And it kept me less hungry between meals)
Then I tried intermittent fasting but was so starving on the fast days it was like torture, I couldn't keep it up, I was so hungry and miserable and prone to crying those days over small things, like if someone said something to me I couldn't tolerate it.
(P.s, it's not like usually when someone hurts my feelings I grab a snickers out of my pocket to sooth the pain, I don't. It's just that when I have low blood sugar and physical hunger pain I become weepy. My dad gets mad. I'm not he type to get 'hangry' more like weepy and depressed)
During the week I had to work, during the weekend I went hiking or out with friends. I couldn't find 2 days a week when I could spend all day curled in bed feeling aweful and sick to fast. The prospect of spending two days a week for life miserable was horrifing to me.
I never felt like I "arrived" because I could never get to a "normal" weight no matter what I did.
Then I tried this "drop a pants size" diet from a book (this was all while I was at my lowest trying to get below 250). This diet was lots of protine, a protine shake, and veggies, 2 cheat meals a week. Lots of weight lifting (especially core stuff like push ups and squats and lunges)
But my weight and clothing size stayed the same. Please explain to me how this is "not trying"?
Eventually I got lazy about weighing and measuring, I got discouraged I couldn't get below 250 (my best was bit good enough) I slowly stopped trying as hard... then as life got very difficult (personal stuff I can not share with my name attached) I stopped trying at all.
Now that I am settled again I am going a more "whole foods" route this time rather then a "strict calorie counting" route.
Today I had:
Breakfast: sandwich with 2 eggs, 1/2 sliced bell pepper, 1/4 avacado, tomato, lettus, rye bread, water
Snack: coffee with milk (no sugar)
Lunch: skinless, boneless chicken breast, a whole bell pepper (raw), celary sticks with hummus, water, 1 square 70% dark chocolate
Snack: 100% grass fed plain (no sugar or sweetener) yogurt mixed with blue and raspberries and slivered almonds
Dinner: 100% grass fed lamb burger (was on crazy sale) with spring mix, avacado, goat cheese, bell pepper, tomato, dressing made of vinaigrette and lamb drippings.
Dessert: 1 square 70% dark chocolate
May not be my 100% A game of 3 years ago, but it's not McDonalds and processed food either. It's not "not trying" it's just "not perfect"
I can not be perfect, I was born this way. My new weight goal this time around is 250. And if a homosexual says "instead of becoming heterosexual, my goal is to, like the fat person who diets and exercises religiously but can't get below a certain number on the scale, so instead they aim for "healthy eating", be in a monogamous life long "marriage". That will be my "perfect" given the body I was born with.". Who am I to judge them for that?
I know Christians who are judgemental, lazy, vain, gossipy.... noone is perfect, right? Why do we single homosexuals out to pick on?
I think it is because this is a sin very hard for a strait Christian to accidentally fall into, so it feels "safe" to demonize.
Sarah many thanks, your imput has helped a lot as you are much better at explaining things than I am.
Emiko, I agree that there is no magic bullet with diet. Even with the autoimmune one which I will call AIP hereafter - autoimmune protocol that is. Even then one has to deal with other issues that come up on the protocol which are retarding our healing.
People on the AIP get their bloods done after a few months and antibodies go right down. Many of them go into remission though the time varies.
I looked at the SWANK for MS site and goodness me it is the total opposite of the AIP. Low fat diets however have come up very badly long term. What often happens is that people who have been on mainly junk food do a diet and there is an improvment often spectacular because of what they have given up. But as time goes on, they run into problems on low fat and it nearly ruined my gall bladder (which I refused to have removed and now it is fine). Low fat is not healthy.
Chicken is not a healthy food either as it is too high in omega 6 with not enough omega 3. Other problems I see are, caffeine is bad for you as your adrenals will be weak. You are most likely to have leaky gut which needs special treatment. Nighshade veggies will make your body inflammation worse. A cool start though!
Wow I cannot eat just one square of chocolate. I had to give it up, and I don't mean cheap candy but home made with 100 % organic raw cocao with coconut and cocao butter with cocnut nectar to sweeten. I use carob now.
My advice to you is to stick at what you are doing but slowly add AIP compliant foods and get your thyroid antibodies checked if they have not been in the past. If you have antibodies then you will only get so far with healthy eating and will need to get that broken gut barrier dealt with . And by the way. one can batch cook and plan ahead for occasions where we need to eat out. I managed in Greece for three weeks with my life saver - tiger nuts (not a nut of a legume but a root) I ate them for breakfast nearly every day. But generally it is good to eat a big breakfast with plenty of good fat that will keep us satiated throughout the day.
I don't think that paleo is healthy as it is too high in protein and does not exclude dairy. The AIP is medium protein and lots of veg. I tried the Wahl's protocol but did not manage to eat all of those veggies each day and as she was not dealing with Hashis I needed a more specific protocol. I eat a lot of green veggies but do not worry if I do not get to 8 cups.
Even the AIP I do not follow slavishly as I found that I was much sicker than most doing it and do not have any support at all as my illness has left me maimly isolated which is a stress. I read a lot about how our artificial lifestyle is so bad for us and that we need to get back to nature, so included a few other things like this:
I took cold showers and ice face dunks and found it worked!
We need vitamin d from the sun at mid day. Grounding with bare feet is really helpful. Wire up computers and avoid blue light at night. These measures can make a big difference.
Paleo (such as whole 30) does exclude dairy.
Whole 30 is for 30 days (hence the name):
no dairy (milk or any milk product such as yogurt or cheese)
no wheat, no corn, no peas, no gluten, no beans, no legumes, no rice, no grains
No sugar, no alcahol
No soy, no seed oils (your supposed to use avacado oil, olive oil, coconut oil, talow, lard, and in a pinch canola but avoid if possible)
no msg, no artificial sweeteners, no weird chemicals you can't pronounce
After 30 days you add each catagory in and look for symptoms such as knees hurting, stomaches upset, etc.
So maybe add dairy but only dairy and see how you feel, then eat clean a week and try starches (non gluten, like rice and beans)
Then try soy...
Last try gluten because they assume more people have a problem with gluten.
Whole 30 is hard because of the little details, like make your own mayo which I suck at, or "only use super expensive oil", or "nothing in a can not even tuna" that sorta thing.
You're like always stressed out because shopping takes 2 hours instead of 5 minutes, and you have to make EVERYTHING from scratch, from ketchup, mustard, and mayo, to lunch meat, to baccon.
I think the actual whole 30 program is super hard because of all the intense stress and how it takes hours to do anything.
And I always cook in batches. At the very least I make my dinner and tomorrow's lunch. But I have been known to make a big pot of curry, chillie, or stew to last all week... get bored of eating it pretty quick tho, and run out of freezer room pretty quick because I have a small freezer and often buy in bulk (or when there is a special buy it all, like the lamb)
I eat dairy, and starch, and dark chocolate because I am not doing a whole 30 at this moment.
It's "primal" that allows milk.
I go for sun when possible, but not as much as I should (like I should be on the porch now but I am not). Often I eat lunch indoors when I could(should?) be on the porch.
I do believe in barefooting and being in nature, I go to the beach (2 hour drive) twice a month in summer for the feet in sand, ions, and health of being in/by the water. I also swim in natural water in the summer (swimminghole/pond, rarely ocean as it is super cold). I believe in the value of being in nature, breathing the trees, standing under water falls etc, so I go hiking in spring (but can't tolerate the heat, and kiddo is too much to deal with in rain and mud, so we don't hike in winter or summer). I do like the hot springs (3 hour drive) haven't been this year but I wanna go after the snow melts but before it gets too hot.
I love being in out in the rain (warmish rain, where you get soaked to the bone and don't care) and thunderstorms. I love being in the hot springs in the rain!! It's one of my favorite things! Too bad it is 3 hours away or I would go more often!
I don't unplug my devices at night, that is when they charge, and I DO read on my tablet at night and don't have a blue light setting.
The only time I remember having my thyroid checked was when I was pregnant (they didn't find anything wrong with it).
I make 22k, a year and have crappy insurance so it would have to be covered (my current plan does not cover weight management or anything that may fall into that catagory, so I need an excuse to have it measured not related to my weight. I was on Medicaid before which was so much better but I make slightly too much to qualify now (at 22k, yeesh!)
Chicken is the cheapest protine I can find, it is like 1.50/lb, 2.50/lb skinless boneless, and even organic free range is like 3.99/lb. Don't know any other meat that is that cheap.
As for the amount of protine in Paleo (not that I am doing Paleo right now) I usually need a lot of meat to feel full. If I don't eat like a palm sized peice of meat or eggs I am usually hungry within 2 hours. I don't know why but meat is very important to satety for me.
Currently I do eat sugar (some) but I shouldn't, I find the less sugar I eat the better... and I usually feel less hungry when I limit starch like whole wheat and bread (a sandwich a week is fine but not as a usual food which lately I have a bit because it's so cheap and easy to eat starch)
The usual check for thyroid is TSH and it is renowned for not showing thyroid dysfunction. The antibody test is not usually done but you need to know if it is Hashis and testing a few months later shows if you are on the right diet. Will pm you.The only time I remember having my thyroid checked was when I was pregnant (they didn't find anything wrong with it).
The point is Emiko, that I have tried many dietary plans mostly low fat like the macrobiotic and none of them significantly reduced the inflammation in my body which has been extremely high because of the many conditions I have. For anyone to recover somewhat who has had severe pesticide poisoning, is amazing enough, but for someone to have that AND Lyme disease and see the improvement I have had is near miraculous. On any forum and FB group I am far sicker than everyone with more symptoms lasting for longer, some my whole life. If any protocol can make inroads there, there is a high chance of it making a significant difference for many if not most.Your diet worked for you, and that is terrific, but it is not guaranteed to work for everyone. It DOESN'T work for everyone, and is NOT guaranteed to cure obesity.
The protocol has cured some of my conditions including Interstiial cystitis which is very hard to treat and is caused by raging inflammation. It has cured peripheral neuropathy as well as heart arrythmias. Many othe rthings but I am not out of the woods and may not be able to be healed entirely but that is okay as I can function now.
Yes the brown fat in the body diminishes, but studies have shown (please see Dr Kruse) that cold thermogenesis restores it in trials.But once you have BEEN obese for many years (a life time) this changes.
Not true! Epigenetics shows that genetic expression can be reversed. I think that you are afraid to eat fat but fat will help heal you and you will feel full without a lot of protein which cannot be good for your kidneys.I know what it is like to have something about you that you are born with that you can't change! So you manage your condition as best you can without torturing yourself.
But anyway I think I have said enough.
I saw a link somewhere about help that is available for people on a low income but can't remember if it was all of the US or just New York and I will find if if you are interested.
Oh and just a ps - being out in the rain is not good as it brings down the pollution in the upper atmosphere with it.