+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 89

Thread: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Senior Member Greg Crofford's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Posts
    1,662
    Post Thanks / Like

    CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    I was pleased to see the CotN sign this letter asking Congress to maintain U.S. foreign aid levels:

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...reign-aid.html

    Besides the General Secretary, other Nazarenes who signed include Jon Middendorf (OKC First) and Timothy Brooks (South Portland). Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith also signed, as did JoAnne Lyon, representing the Wesleyan Church.

    According to the article, foreign aid amounts to only 1% of the U.S. government's annual budget.

    Thanks for taking this stand!
    Achiever - Learner -Context - Intellection - Input

    Visit my theology weblog at: gregorycrofford.com
    Amazon author page: https://amazon.com/author/jgregorycrofford
    Facebook: Greg Crofford
    Twitter: @africasojourner

  2. #2
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    W Michigan
    Posts
    12,071
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Just 1% !? Surprising . . . .
    Anyone else surprised??
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. ~ Stella Adler
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life. ~ Susan Lapin ~
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor lasts a lifetime! Weeping may last through the night, but joy comes with the morning. Psalm 30:5 (NLT)
    Thanks Charlene Clevenger - "thanks" for this post

  3. #3
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Crofford View Post
    I was pleased to see the CotN sign this letter asking Congress to maintain U.S. foreign aid levels:

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...reign-aid.html

    Besides the General Secretary, other Nazarenes who signed include Jon Middendorf (OKC First) and Timothy Brooks (South Portland). Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith also signed, as did JoAnne Lyon, representing the Wesleyan Church.

    According to the article, foreign aid amounts to only 1% of the U.S. government's annual budget.

    Thanks for taking this stand!
    A few things. This is not a surprise. Actually, we spend less than 1% of our federal budget on foreign aid. However, this is NOT much of a stand. The US spends many multiples more on NGO foreign aid. We could reduce the federal budget portion and it would barely be a drop in the bucket on what we send out in foreign aid. We should keep foreign aid the same. Let's cut Social Security instead.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Glenn Messer - "thanks" for this post

  4. #4
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,094
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    A few things. This is not a surprise. Actually, we spend less than 1% of our federal budget on foreign aid. However, this is NOT much of a stand. The US spends many multiples more on NGO foreign aid. We could reduce the federal budget portion and it would barely be a drop in the bucket on what we send out in foreign aid. We should keep foreign aid the same. Let's cut Social Security instead.
    Uh, I was totally on board until I got to that last little sentence.

    I'm all for cutting foreign aid. I am convinced it fuels more graft and corruption than we can imagine. Sorta like the program to rebuild Haiti. (Did you notice, I didn't mention any names?)
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mike Schutz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    West Grove, PA
    Posts
    2,793
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Sorta like the program to rebuild Haiti. (Did you notice, I didn't mention any names?)
    Both governments and NGOs struggle to make any significant difference in Haiti. As the director of one Christian NGO told me, "Haiti is where assistance programs go to die." Making a difference in a single village, over a single issue, can be done - such as a water project. But it will cost more than just about anywhere else. And making systemic change is really hard, and must be done by Haitians. Simply throwing money at a problem - whether US aid or funded through a Christian organization, may salve our consciences, but it has not worked.
    "Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"

  6. #6
    Senior Member Greg Crofford's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Posts
    1,662
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    A few things. This is not a surprise. Actually, we spend less than 1% of our federal budget on foreign aid. However, this is NOT much of a stand. The US spends many multiples more on NGO foreign aid. We could reduce the federal budget portion and it would barely be a drop in the bucket on what we send out in foreign aid. We should keep foreign aid the same. Let's cut Social Security instead.
    When you say "the US spends many multiples more on NGO foreign aid," do you mean taxpayer money disbursed from the U.S. Treasury or private donations from American citizens to various charities, i.e. NGOs such as World Vision, Save the Children, Compassion International, etc.?
    Achiever - Learner -Context - Intellection - Input

    Visit my theology weblog at: gregorycrofford.com
    Amazon author page: https://amazon.com/author/jgregorycrofford
    Facebook: Greg Crofford
    Twitter: @africasojourner
    Thanks Diane Likens, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  7. #7
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Crofford View Post
    When you say "the US spends many multiples more on NGO foreign aid," do you mean taxpayer money disbursed from the U.S. Treasury or private donations from American citizens to various charities, i.e. NGOs such as World Vision, Save the Children, Compassion International, etc.?
    NGO - Non-governmental organizations - private monies given voluntarily. The far better, and more efficient way to impact a world.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Wes Smith, Jim Chabot, Glenn Messer, Lorie Hatcliff - "thanks" for this post

  8. #8
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN, USA
    Posts
    5,699
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    NGO - Non-governmental organizations - private monies given voluntarily. The far better, and more efficient way to impact a world.
    If you're counting all the money that leaves the pockets of our citizens, not just what flows through the US Treasury, then my guess is that far, far less than 1% goes toward anything that could be labeled "foreign aid."
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  9. #9
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,571
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Crofford View Post
    When you say "the US spends many multiples more on NGO foreign aid," do you mean taxpayer money disbursed from the U.S. Treasury or private donations from American citizens to various charities, i.e. NGOs such as World Vision, Save the Children, Compassion International, etc.?
    Yes, US foreign aid delivers very good return on investment, both for US interests and for world mission.

    I look at it as choosing prevention (foreign aid to buy friends) or cure (military campaigns to kill those who side with our enemies). The latter far more expensive and far less effective. But hey...at least foreign killing creates lots of American jobs. Right?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  10. #10
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Northeast Georgia, USA
    Posts
    2,351
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by billy cox View Post
    yes, us foreign aid delivers very good return on investment, both for us interests and for world mission.

    I look at it as choosing prevention (foreign aid to buy friends) or cure (military campaigns to kill those who side with our enemies). The latter far more expensive and far less effective. But hey...at least foreign killing creates lots of american jobs. Right?
    ^^^^^^^^^
    this!
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Yes, US foreign aid delivers very good return on investment, both for US interests and for world mission.

    I look at it as choosing prevention (foreign aid to buy friends) or cure (military campaigns to kill those who side with our enemies). The latter far more expensive and far less effective. But hey...at least foreign killing creates lots of American jobs. Right?
    Again, this is just way too easy, and is representative of historical amnesia. Sometimes, foreign aid is a great return on investment, at other times it has only serve to worsen situations, or has served to create issues that have led to violence. Sometimes, the lack of aid has actually helped situations more than continued giving. There are many examples where foreign aid has simply represented flawed diplomatic decisions. The list is long. One simply cannot create a binary statement - foreign aid - good, reduce foreign aid - bad. It is not that easy.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  12. #12
    NazNet Host

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,588
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    I wonder what the percentage or total amount is if we figured in the costs of keeping our military presence around the world.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Thanks Diane Likens, Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  13. #13
    NazNet Host

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,588
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    While I am not sure that I oppose or support signing the letter to the President concerning maintaining foreign aid, I will say that the letter makes me a bit nervous.

    When we have our most esteemed and visible Christian leaders making this "statement" against debt reduction, it just makes me nervous.

    More than anyone, these leaders should know the danger of debt to the future of the republic and they "seem" to be saying in this case it just doesn't matter. The truth, then, is that our spiritual leaders are pretty much obligated to be silent when others affected by the reductions step up to the plate to complain. I'm not sure or totally convinced of what I am saying here. It "may" be that poor, downtrodden folks around the world "may" have a primary claim to expenditures.

    I have to wonder, though, if there is not an equal amount of waste/graft that if eliminated would keep us abreast of meeting world needs. Are there other, even better, sources of support for world need than the US government?

    It just makes me nervous when our leaders are right there at the front of the line complaining. Aren't there some adult discussions we should be having about how to compensate for the decrease in funds?

    My statements are still in the formulative stage, but it is going something like this: Americans are not good at tightening their financial belts, and, they are quite resistant to the concept of no longer stealing from their children and grandchildren.

    There are just bigger subjects we should discuss before we do our knee-jerk complaining about debt reduction. That is more a reaction we would expect from congress, I think.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Thanks Glenn Messer, Lorie Hatcliff - "thanks" for this post

  14. #14
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    When we have our most esteemed and visible Christian leaders making this "statement" against debt reduction, it just makes me nervous.
    Did we read the same article? The point is not debt reduction.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks John F Martin - "thanks" for this post

  15. #15
    NazNet Host

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,588
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Did we read the same article? The point is not debt reduction.
    We disagree. The point of the decreased budget proposal, almost across the board, imo, is deficit and debt reduction. $20 TRILLION in budgetary debt is not anywhere close to pocket change. All of that money must be financed and, hopefully, repaid at some point. Who will repay? No one alive now, probably. Just decreasing deficits to the point of zero will take decades.

    So, what to do? Either keep kicking the can down the road, or, face up to it and begin to address it.

    While I repeat, I am not sure this is a good cutback, BUT in honor of upcoming generations I would expect our Christian leader to say something about the [im]morality of what we are doing to future generations.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Thanks Lorie Hatcliff, Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  16. #16
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    We disagree. The point of the decreased budget proposal, almost across the board, imo, is deficit and debt reduction. $20 TRILLION in budgetary debt is not anywhere close to pocket change. All of that money must be financed and, hopefully, repaid at some point. Who will repay? No one alive now, probably. Just decreasing deficits to the point of zero will take decades.

    So, what to do? Either keep kicking the can down the road, or, face up to it and begin to address it.

    While I repeat, I am not sure this is a good cutback, BUT in honor of upcoming generations I would expect our Christian leader to say something about the [im]morality of what we are doing to future generations.

    Friend,

    Wes
    No, the point is this:

    Matthew 25 tells us when we serve the least of these, we are serving the Lord. As people of faith, we cannot turn our back on those in desperate need. We are grateful for America’s global development and diplomacy programs that have been instrumental in saving lives, safeguarding religious liberties, and keeping America safe and secure. Both Republican and Democratic administrations have strong legacies of supporting humanitarian and development programs that enable countless people to pull themselves out of poverty and live life with dignity. It is through these diplomatic and development tools that we’ve seen countries and communities build peaceful, productive societies that do not turn to violence or terrorism.
    If you want to discuss the pros and cons of economic theory for government budgets and debt, I think you should start a new post.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW

  17. #17
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    No, the point is this:



    If you want to discuss the pros and cons of economic theory for government budgets and debt, I think you should start a new post.
    The inevitable "God card" gets played. Since we now all know that Tim is more Christian than Wes, I guess we can discuss something else.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Tim Troxler, Wes Smith - thanks for this funny post

  18. #18
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    The inevitable "God card" gets played. Since we now all know that Tim is more Christian than Wes, I guess we can discuss something else.
    The "God card" as you call it is a direct quote from the letter the leaders signed. I don't claim to be more Christian than Wes, but apparently I actually read the letter unlike you.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks David Troxler, Jeremy Bixler - "thanks" for this post

  19. #19
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    The "God card" as you call it is a direct quote from the letter the leaders signed. I don't claim to be more Christian than Wes, but apparently I actually read the letter unlike you.
    Now you claim divine powers - each post gets a bit more grandiose than the last. Since you know what I read and don't read, tell everyone what I am reading right now.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Now you claim divine powers - each post gets a bit more grandiose than the last. Since you know what I read and don't read, tell everyone what I am reading right now.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Laughing Doug Ward, Rich Schmidt, David Troxler - thanks for this funny post

  21. #21
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Well-played.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,067
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Well-played.
    Indeed! Bravo Tim!

    At least it was only a letter. I've read entire books for no good reason!

    Still Wes is right, just because a bunch of people who are looking for attention state their alleged point, that in itself doesn't a primary point make.

    I didn't read the letter, but you already know this. I didn't need to, a few of the names on the list of signatories combined with the political subject matter make this a letter not worth reading.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  23. #23
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,067
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Now you claim divine powers - each post gets a bit more grandiose than the last. Since you know what I read and don't read, tell everyone what I am reading right now.
    The take out menu for the local Chinese restaurant????
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Laughing Diane Likens - thanks for this funny post

  24. #24
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    12,067
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    We disagree. The point of the decreased budget proposal, almost across the board, imo, is deficit and debt reduction. $20 TRILLION in budgetary debt is not anywhere close to pocket change. All of that money must be financed and, hopefully, repaid at some point. Who will repay? No one alive now, probably. Just decreasing deficits to the point of zero will take decades.

    So, what to do? Either keep kicking the can down the road, or, face up to it and begin to address it.

    While I repeat, I am not sure this is a good cutback, BUT in honor of upcoming generations I would expect our Christian leader to say something about the [im]morality of what we are doing to future generations.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Tell you what Wes, I'm not exactly sure how much this will save, but save we must and cut we must.

    What is kinda bothering me about our leaders signing this letter is that they are playing the part of the political hack in a time when we are deeply divided. Proverbs tells us that to take on someone else's argument is the same as picking up a stray dog by the ears.

    And now for what's really bothering me about this letter and your mention of debt reduction. What about the Mid Atlantic District's debt? Certainly our leaders at the General Church have much more important things to be concerning themselves with than meddling around in piddling political events. To which I might add, they have very little influence over.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Gina Stevenson, Wes Smith - "thanks" for this post

  25. #25
    NazNet Host

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,588
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    I'd just like to say that when we have a financial crisis on the local or family level, everyone shares in the pain. In America we have so bought into the concept of living on borrowed money that debt reduction and debt elimination is a fantasy.

    Of all people I would expect to understand this...church leaders!

    My point about my concern re. the "pastoral letter" is simply this...something of less is substantially more than all of nothing. It can be argued that we are light years away from...nothing. That may be, I doubt it, but whatever we do that ignores shared pain, just steals more resources from our children and grandchildren and way beyond. Stealing from coming generations is less offensive than giving less charity to the needy?

    Friend

    Wes
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  26. #26
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    I'd just like to say that when we have a financial crisis on the local or family level, everyone shares in the pain. In America we have so bought into the concept of living on borrowed money that debt reduction and debt elimination is a fantasy.

    Of all people I would expect to understand this...church leaders!

    My point about my concern re. the "pastoral letter" is simply this...something of less is substantially more than all of nothing. It can be argued that we are light years away from...nothing. That may be, I doubt it, but whatever we do that ignores shared pain, just steals more resources from our children and grandchildren and way beyond. Stealing from coming generations is less offensive than giving less charity to the needy?

    Friend

    Wes
    "Steals resources from our children"? Isn't that like saying the native is more important than the foreigner? Or like saying that I need to keep the grain in my storehouse because I might be hungry next year?

    "Stealing" from the future generations of Americans is infinitely less offensive than feeding current generations elsewhere.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Jeremy Bixler, Aaron Stapleton, Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  27. #27
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    "Steals resources from our children"? Isn't that like saying the native is more important than the foreigner? Or like saying that I need to keep the grain in my storehouse because I might be hungry next year?

    "Stealing" from the future generations of Americans is infinitely less offensive than feeding current generations elsewhere.
    Careful...you're dangerously close to bringing the bible into the conversation. People get mad about that.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Lucas Finch, Jeremy Bixler - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Diane Likens, David Troxler - thanks for this funny post

  28. #28
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,571
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Troxler View Post
    Careful...you're dangerously close to bringing the bible into the conversation. People get mad about that.
    Yes, we keep God in a separate silo, so as to bring him out only for really important issues like gay rights and abortion.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  29. #29
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beaumont, CA
    Posts
    9,796
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Yes, we keep God in a separate silo, so as to bring him out only for really important issues like gay rights and abortion.
    God may not really have the time - I think he spends a lot of time writing disclaimers.
    Laughing Diane Likens, Billy Cox - thanks for this funny post

  30. #30
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    "Steals resources from our children"? Isn't that like saying the native is more important than the foreigner? Or like saying that I need to keep the grain in my storehouse because I might be hungry next year?

    "Stealing" from the future generations of Americans is infinitely less offensive than feeding current generations elsewhere.
    So, I hope that when it come to retirement time, that you will be upset when you find that you get a Social Security check, and it has not been spread out to people all over the world. I also hope that you support the idea of using your local taxes to repave my street in Illinois. I also hope that you have no issue with your municipal water bill going to build a water system in Garden City, KS. I respect this position - I really do. I just hope it is a consistent one.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  31. #31
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    So, I hope that when it come to retirement time, that you will be upset when you find that you get a Social Security check, and it has not been spread out to people all over the world. I also hope that you support the idea of using your local taxes to repave my street in Illinois. I also hope that you have no issue with your municipal water bill going to build a water system in Garden City, KS. I respect this position - I really do. I just hope it is a consistent one.
    Doug, I'm going to be blunt and say that I'd rather be poor and broke when I'm older than have anyone starve. Money isn't the end all for me (not saying it is for you). My taxes are hopefully used for what's needed, regardless of where its needed. I hate my taxes being spent on wars, untold amounts of military equipment, lining the pockets of companies who crap all over their workers, etc. I'd even volunteer to be taxed at a higher rate if I didn't have to hear that teachers were being underpaid, that there weren't enough public defenders to go around, that poorer kids didn't have to be segregated to a failing school.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Cam Pence, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

  32. #32
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Doug, I'm going to be blunt and say that I'd rather be poor and broke when I'm older than have anyone starve. Money isn't the end all for me (not saying it is for you). My taxes are hopefully used for what's needed, regardless of where its needed. I hate my taxes being spent on wars, untold amounts of military equipment, lining the pockets of companies who crap all over their workers, etc. I'd even volunteer to be taxed at a higher rate if I didn't have to hear that teachers were being underpaid, that there weren't enough public defenders to go around, that poorer kids didn't have to be segregated to a failing school.
    Good. You have that option. Have you volunteered and sent in extra money to the government? If you haven't, then this post is just posturing.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  33. #33
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Good. You have that option. Have you volunteered and sent in extra money to the government? If you haven't, then this post is just posturing.
    Huh? I don't think you quite understood what I was saying.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  34. #34
    NazNet Host

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,588
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    So, I hope that when it come to retirement time, that you will be upset when you find that you get a Social Security check, and it has not been spread out to people all over the world. I also hope that you support the idea of using your local taxes to repave my street in Illinois. I also hope that you have no issue with your municipal water bill going to build a water system in Garden City, KS. I respect this position - I really do. I just hope it is a consistent one.
    Doug, I'm going to be blunt and say that I would prefer to have adequate financial resources in my possession so that I could be helpful to and generous with needy people. Money sure isn't the end all, but the reality is that it is necessary in order to get along in life. I hope and pray that taxes are viewed by those who allocate them as precious both from the standpoint of honoring those from whom they come as well as prudently distributing them to actual needs. I cherish the concept of taxes being distributed in order to create safety for people wherever needed and wherever effectively used. I am all for the efficient use of tax dollars for educational purposes. I would volunteer to have less SS come to me if I could be assured that the deduction would go to lift the curse of generational theft off of our lives.

    Friend,

    Wes
    Thanks David Troxler, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  35. #35
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    Doug, I'm going to be blunt and say that I would prefer to have adequate financial resources in my possession so that I could be helpful to and generous with needy people. Money sure isn't the end all, but the reality is that it is necessary in order to get along in life. I hope and pray that taxes are viewed by those who allocate them as precious both from the standpoint of honoring those from whom they come as well as prudently distributing them to actual needs. I cherish the concept of taxes being distributed in order to create safety for people wherever needed and wherever effectively used. I am all for the efficient use of tax dollars for educational purposes. I would volunteer to have less SS come to me if I could be assured that the deduction would go to lift the curse of generational theft off of our lives.

    Friend,

    Wes
    I've had this conversation with quite a few people and the one thing they won't admit readily is what they are really going to do with the money.

    So here's a simple yes/no question for you. If you were currently taxed at 20% and your taxes go down to 10%, are you giving the entirety of that 10% increase to charity/assisting others?

    When pressed to answer most people have admitted that they'd put a good portion of it in their savings/retirement/investment.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Aaron Stapleton - "thanks" for this post

  36. #36
    NazNet Host

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,588
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    I've had this conversation with quite a few people and the one thing they won't admit readily is what they are really going to do with the money.

    So here's a simple yes/no question for you. If you were currently taxed at 20% and your taxes go down to 10%, are you giving the entirety of that 10% increase to charity/assisting others?

    When pressed to answer most people have admitted that they'd put a good portion of it in their savings/retirement/investment.
    Ben,

    My "problem" is that I am a fiscal conservative with the spiritual gift of...giving! Talk about a challenge!

    What it has come to for me is to give significant effort and attention to increasing my capital so I have more...to give away.

    By the way, your post and question to me reveals a substantial difference in ideology, I do believe. My trust is nearly zero in government. "Nearly" because I do think there are necessary functions that government performs and provides. On the other hand, "nearly" zero because there seems to me to be an innate assumption in government that they can do better with money than the citizens. Take that thought and spend some time camping at the reality of $20 TRILLION in budgetary debt and $100 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities.

    Not only have government leaders convinced us of their intellectual and moral prowess, they have also thrown the net of their inept "leadership" over the generations to come.

    SO, the decrease in taxes reveals LOTS more about the "what if" or "what would we do if." The greater revelation is why anyone would trust government with one penny more than basic and reasonable governmental necessities.

    Friend,

    Wes

  37. #37
    Senior Member Tim Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The moment
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    My "problem" is that I am a fiscal conservative with the spiritual gift of...giving! Talk about a challenge!
    Challenge accepted. I'll send you my paypal account; whenever you feel compelled to give I'll bear the burden of receiving.
    "Neither holiness nor love is Christian without the other...Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination ends in nitpicking and divisiveness." - MBW
    Thanks Wes Smith, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Wes Smith - thanks for this funny post

  38. #38
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    Ben,

    My "problem" is that I am a fiscal conservative with the spiritual gift of...giving! Talk about a challenge!

    What it has come to for me is to give significant effort and attention to increasing my capital so I have more...to give away.

    By the way, your post and question to me reveals a substantial difference in ideology, I do believe. My trust is nearly zero in government. "Nearly" because I do think there are necessary functions that government performs and provides. On the other hand, "nearly" zero because there seems to me to be an innate assumption in government that they can do better with money than the citizens. Take that thought and spend some time camping at the reality of $20 TRILLION in budgetary debt and $100 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities.

    Not only have government leaders convinced us of their intellectual and moral prowess, they have also thrown the net of their inept "leadership" over the generations to come.

    SO, the decrease in taxes reveals LOTS more about the "what if" or "what would we do if." The greater revelation is why anyone would trust government with one penny more than basic and reasonable governmental necessities.

    Friend,

    Wes
    I don't trust the government to use my money in all the right ways. I know there's plenty of corruption, plenty of waste and plenty of cronyism. But I also don't want to hurt those who are going to benefit from my taxes. Think about it, if your taxes go down, what gets cut? Is it is the F-35 program? Is the private industry getting taxed more? Or is it the public funded welfare programs getting cut?

    I don't like our system, I know for fact certain things aren't being done as they should be. But I'm not going to demand that my taxes be lowered so that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  39. #39
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    2,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    I've had this conversation with quite a few people and the one thing they won't admit readily is what they are really going to do with the money.

    So here's a simple yes/no question for you. If you were currently taxed at 20% and your taxes go down to 10%, are you giving the entirety of that 10% increase to charity/assisting others?

    When pressed to answer most people have admitted that they'd put a good portion of it in their savings/retirement/investment.
    Taxed at 20%? Where do you live? I want to move there!!! If I were taxed at 20%, I would give double what I do today - easily. You see, I and most people I know are taxed at roughly 50%. My wife and I sacrificed so our kids could go to college and graduate debt-free. More people could do it if the number one expense they pay - taxes, were not so high. This 20% thing you wrote made me laugh. I never knew Maryland was so exempted from what the rest of us have to pay.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CotN signs letter to Congress re. U.S. foreign aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    Taxed at 20%? Where do you live? I want to move there!!! If I were taxed at 20%, I would give double what I do today - easily. You see, I and most people I know are taxed at roughly 50%. My wife and I sacrificed so our kids could go to college and graduate debt-free. More people could do it if the number one expense they pay - taxes, were not so high. This 20% thing you wrote made me laugh. I never knew Maryland was so exempted from what the rest of us have to pay.
    Are you really claiming that your effective tax rate is 50%?
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts