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Thread: Public Education Reform

  1. #41
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    In North Carolina a proposal was made to provide vouchers for school choice. The voucher would be for an amount less than the amount the states paid public schools per student. In other words, the public schools would have less students, but more money per student. They still fought it. They were opposed to school choice under any circumstances.
    In TN the voucher bills over the last few years have the Federal, State, and Local Funds at the per pupil rate following the students. The Bill for special needs students passed last year. The problem is that we spend, on average 3x more than the per pupil rate. Our fear is the special needs parent will pull the child and the money then find out half way through the year that they can't cope. By law, we will re-admit the student with the funds now gone.

    I am opposed to a one size fits all school choice law. I don't think rural schools can run both public and private option. They will have to choose as a community.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    As a teacher whether public or private I consider myself a servant of the student and parent and I was to try my best to serve them in their quest for education to the best of my ability. I started having parent-teacher conferences in Nampa, ID before it was instituted by the school district. I remember one conference with the parents of a student who was lackadaisical and was not performing up to his abilities and his mother happened to be the overall PTA president for the whole district. At the conference with the boy with them, I said that if a student has not made up his mind to really seek education by the end of the 6th grade he was likely to be a candidate to become a drop out. The father exclaimed, "Now that is from the horse's mouth." The boy buckled down and improved very well. The mother lobbied the school district to institute parent-teacher conferences as a result. Another was a girl who was quite persnickety and her mother came to a conference stating that she was ready to pull her daughter out of my class. But after our conference the mother became my biggest booster among the parents of that class. Later in the year I reminded the girl about how she had acted earlier and she said, "Wasn't I the silly one?"
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    In the past few months, I've caught 2 or 3 different podcasts/radio shows talking about school integration and how it improves education outcomes... and how some people refuse to acknowledge this and fight it no matter what.

    So I'm inclined to side with those who've said earlier in this thread that busing really does work and is proven to work.

    I also recall reading in the past year the statistics on school choice and how it really only benefits the rich, based on actual studies done in states with school choice laws on the books for a few years.

    All this to say... if I can stumble across these things, so can anyone else. The research is out there, if you want to read it.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    In North Carolina a proposal was made to provide vouchers for school choice. The voucher would be for an amount less than the amount the states paid public schools per student. In other words, the public schools would have less students, but more money per student. They still fought it. They were opposed to school choice under any circumstances.
    When I speak with my family in North Carolina about this proposal, they would disagree with your assertion that the schools would have more money per student. The proposal would have provided vouchers for school choice, yes. Those vouchers would be for an amount less than the per-student amount paid by the state to the public school, yes. But the difference between what the state would have paid the public school and what they would pay on the voucher system was not going to stay in the public school. It was going to stay in the general revenue. The per-student amount in the public schools was to remain constant. This means that the schools would have BOTH fewer students AND less money.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    In the past few months, I've caught 2 or 3 different podcasts/radio shows talking about school integration and how it improves education outcomes... and how some people refuse to acknowledge this and fight it no matter what.

    So I'm inclined to side with those who've said earlier in this thread that busing really does work and is proven to work.

    I also recall reading in the past year the statistics on school choice and how it really only benefits the rich, based on actual studies done in states with school choice laws on the books for a few years.

    All this to say... if I can stumble across these things, so can anyone else. The research is out there, if you want to read it.
    What if I don't want to know that school choice is a cause célèbre for present-day segregationists?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Laughing Benjamin Hobbs - thanks for this funny post

  6. #46
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    When I speak with my family in North Carolina about this proposal, they would disagree with your assertion that the schools would have more money per student. The proposal would have provided vouchers for school choice, yes. Those vouchers would be for an amount less than the per-student amount paid by the state to the public school, yes. But the difference between what the state would have paid the public school and what they would pay on the voucher system was not going to stay in the public school. It was going to stay in the general revenue. The per-student amount in the public schools was to remain constant. This means that the schools would have BOTH fewer students AND less money.
    Perhaps they are right, Diane, but that is not how I remember it. I was living in Wake Forest, near Raleigh, during that period. I only moved from there in 2014. I remember it the way I presented it. Of course, the way you see an issue is largely dependent on your political leanings. For instance, many people are convinced that Trump's budget proposal is going to kill Meals on Wheels. Not true. Politics over school choice and busing in Raleigh got plenty heated. There was more money spent and more ads bought in campaigning for school board control than in pursuit of some state elections. Accusations flew fast and furious and truth was often lost in the attacks. There is a heavily democratic base in the greater Raleigh area primarily because NC State, UNC, Duke, and a few other colleges/universities are all located within 40 miles of downtown Raleigh. They provide a heavy liberal/progressive base of voters.

    Rich noted that studies indicate that busing improves education. That is still debatable in the Raleigh area. It improves diversity, but any improvement in educational achievements are minimal, if any. The short of it is that the only proven method to improve educational achievement is greater parental involvement and support. Even if you are poor, you probably still live near a public library.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    What if I don't want to know that school choice is a cause célèbre for present-day segregationists?
    I can take you into a number of small towns (less than 20,000 pop.) where there is no voucher program, but for all practical purposes public schools have largely become minority based (90%), including administration and teaching staff. Most white students have migrated to non-public schools or home schooling (again, 90%). They are not all located in the south. Some public schools in large cities tend to end up largely segregated. My brother-in-law taught in a school that was 90% Hispanic, while my sister-in-law taught in a school that was 70% white. Busing to achieve diversity in a metropolitan area like Houston, TX, would cost a fortune and be a logistic nightmare.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Even if you are poor, you probably still live near a public library.
    Possibly. Maybe.

    http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/a...-and-the-poor/
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Perhaps they are right, Diane, but that is not how I remember it. I was living in Wake Forest, near Raleigh, during that period. I only moved from there in 2014. I remember it the way I presented it. Of course, the way you see an issue is largely dependent on your political leanings. For instance, many people are convinced that Trump's budget proposal is going to kill Meals on Wheels. Not true. Politics over school choice and busing in Raleigh got plenty heated. There was more money spent and more ads bought in campaigning for school board control than in pursuit of some state elections. Accusations flew fast and furious and truth was often lost in the attacks. There is a heavily democratic base in the greater Raleigh area primarily because NC State, UNC, Duke, and a few other colleges/universities are all located within 40 miles of downtown Raleigh. They provide a heavy liberal/progressive base of voters.

    Rich noted that studies indicate that busing improves education. That is still debatable in the Raleigh area. It improves diversity, but any improvement in educational achievements are minimal, if any. The short of it is that the only proven method to improve educational achievement is greater parental involvement and support.
    I would challenge that the biggest issue in that area is race. In other areas of the country where race has been the silent argument against busing the system got changed and many went along with it because it was the rule. In NC it doesn't matter what the law is, those who want racial separation will get it come hell or high water. If you think racism isn't a motivating force in NC politics you have only to look at the voter ID laws recently struck down for a current example.

    Even if you are poor, you probably still live near a public library
    Are those public libraries in the same condition as the neighborhood schools? If so, then they aren't helpful.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    You beat me to it.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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  11. #51
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    I can take you into a number of small towns (less than 20,000 pop.) where there is no voucher program, but for all practical purposes public schools have largely become minority based (90%), including administration and teaching staff. Most white students have migrated to non-public schools or home schooling (again, 90%). They are not all located in the south. Some public schools in large cities tend to end up largely segregated. My brother-in-law taught in a school that was 90% Hispanic, while my sister-in-law taught in a school that was 70% white. Busing to achieve diversity in a metropolitan area like Houston, TX, would cost a fortune and be a logistic nightmare.
    Is it more expensive than the long term effect having poorer students getting a bad education? I'd say it wasn't. Most, if not all children in my area are already being bused anyway.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  12. #52
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    I would challenge that the biggest issue in that area is race. In other areas of the country where race has been the silent argument against busing the system got changed and many went along with it because it was the rule. In NC it doesn't matter what the law is, those who want racial separation will get it come hell or high water. If you think racism isn't a motivating force in NC politics you have only to look at the voter ID laws recently struck down for a current example.

    Are those public libraries in the same condition as the neighborhood schools? If so, then they aren't helpful.
    Agree, but race is something we can't talk about on NazNet. It's a reliable hair-trigger issue for some.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Benjamin Hobbs, Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  13. #53
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Agree, but race is something we can't talk about on NazNet. It's a reliable hair-trigger issue for some.
    And a reliable means of obfuscation for others.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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  14. #54
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    In the past few months, I've caught 2 or 3 different podcasts/radio shows talking about school integration and how it improves education outcomes... and how some people refuse to acknowledge this and fight it no matter what.

    So I'm inclined to side with those who've said earlier in this thread that busing really does work and is proven to work.

    I also recall reading in the past year the statistics on school choice and how it really only benefits the rich, based on actual studies done in states with school choice laws on the books for a few years.

    All this to say... if I can stumble across these things, so can anyone else. The research is out there, if you want to read it.
    Since all politics is local, let me tell a local story

    Indiana has a generous voucher law. My school has been the beneficiary of that law, and a large number of our students receive some sort of voucher support. Here is what I have seen in my time there.

    The number of financially struggling families coming to our school increases every year.
    The percentage of minority students in our school exceeds the local community by a significant amount.
    Most of the parents bringing their kids to our school want better performance, smaller classes, and a more controlled environment.

    There aren't many rich parents in our school. If there are, they don't show up at the annual auction
    Thanks Glenn Messer, Jim Chabot, Rich Schmidt, Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  15. #55
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Richardson View Post
    Since all politics is local, let me tell a local story

    Indiana has a generous voucher law. My school has been the beneficiary of that law, and a large number of our students receive some sort of voucher support. Here is what I have seen in my time there.

    The number of financially struggling families coming to our school increases every year.
    The percentage of minority students in our school exceeds the local community by a significant amount.
    Most of the parents bringing their kids to our school want better performance, smaller classes, and a more controlled environment.

    There aren't many rich parents in our school. If there are, they don't show up at the annual auction
    What percentage of the special needs population does your school support? How many of your students have IEP's?
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
    Thanks Diane Likens, Benjamin Hobbs - "thanks" for this post

  16. #56
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    I would challenge that the biggest issue in that area is race. In other areas of the country where race has been the silent argument against busing the system got changed and many went along with it because it was the rule. In NC it doesn't matter what the law is, those who want racial separation will get it come hell or high water. If you think racism isn't a motivating force in NC politics you have only to look at the voter ID laws recently struck down for a current example.

    Are those public libraries in the same condition as the neighborhood schools? If so, then they aren't helpful.
    Race was not an argument against busing. Race diversity was the only real argument for busing. Those who favored busing believed that greater racial diversity would improve overall educational achievement. The results have not proven to have any significant impact on educational achievement for blacks or whites. What the people I knew in NC wanted was to be able to send their children to a neighborhood school. Some kids were arbitrarily bused miles from home to schools on the other side of town. Kids often left for school long before parents left for work.

    As I also noted above and the article you guys cited supports, there is no substitute for parental involvement. Sure, not all libraries are the same, but not all kids live in the neighborhoods of Detroit and Philadelphia described by the article. Most do not. Truthfully, it really doesn't matter. If the parents aren't involved and don't care, then the kids stand almost no chance of success. That is sad beyond words. I have a family who lives in a difficult complex. There have been 3 drug related murders there in the past year. The first time I went calling, I came home and told my wife that it was depressing; kids growing up there had little hope to break the cycle they lived in. I asked my family there how they coped. The mom told me that she doesn't allow her children outside unless she or her husband can be with them. They rarely get to play outside.

    Voter ID laws are not designed to prevent minority voting. They are designed to prevent voter fraud. I know. It doesn't exist. Well, at least not as long as you don't get caught.....and aren't Russian. More than half of all states have voter ID requirements. Some who don't will eventually add them. Personally, I believe that the only reason to oppose voter ID laws is because you believe that there should be no restrictions on who can and can't vote. I do not believe that.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  17. #57
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    Re: Public Education Reform

    I'm going waaaaayyyyyyy out on a limb here and agree our schools are the canaries in the coal mine, but not of community neglect.

    Rather, they are canaries of the disintegrating family.

    Bear with me a minute, and yes we have educators in the family.

    No matter how good a school is, no matter how much money is spent, no matter how good a job excellent teachers do, some kids are behind the eight ball when they first hit the door. And we've have over 4 decades of trying to make up for it AT SCHOOL rather than dealing with the root: fixing families.

    If you were "well educated" at a mythic 100 points, kids who are conceived in and being raised in stable satisfying marriages enter the door of preK with 50 points. Doesn't matter if they are black or white or purple, or if they are rich or poor or somewhere in between. And if those parents are more focused on raising the kids right than on careers (wealthy families) or having adult toys (redneck families) or protesting social woes (poor families) those kids are at 75 points on the first day of school.

    The final 25 points? Yeah, good schools help, as do parental involvement, community support, health care and adequate nutrition and clean safe housing.

    Obviously we cannot throw up our hands and not try to educate the kids 50-75 points handicapped. But we have to also find a way to stop the country wide denial and admit that those handicaps are real, are devastating, and lie not at the community's doorstep, but at the individual parents'. We have to find a way and the will to say that from this day forward, no more excuses, it is not ok to create children and not take responsibility for raising them properly. We have to find a way to use peer pressure on ourselves as adults to create a society that understands that while the village is helpful, it takes parents to raise children.

    Until we do, we won't accomplish anything more than throwing more money down the drain and flushing it. And watch more generations of children be shortchanged.

    Now if I were wise enough to figure out how to do this.............

  18. #58
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Race was not an argument against busing. Race diversity was the only real argument for busing. Those who favored busing believed that greater racial diversity would improve overall educational achievement. The results have not proven to have any significant impact on educational achievement for blacks or whites. What the people I knew in NC wanted was to be able to send their children to a neighborhood school. Some kids were arbitrarily bused miles from home to schools on the other side of town. Kids often left for school long before parents left for work.
    I think I would agree that desegregation programs didn't live up to expectations and usher in a post-racial society, but it was a step in the right direction. Civil rights activists of the 1960s probably underestimated just how far some people would go to preserve racial separation and hierarchy. State-sponsored segregation may have come to an end, but it served only to drive overt racism underground; leading some to find more creative and less obvious ways to keep people of color in their place.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Diane Likens, Benjamin Hobbs - "thanks" for this post

  19. #59
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    I'm going waaaaayyyyyyy out on a limb here and agree our schools are the canaries in the coal mine, but not of community neglect.

    Rather, they are canaries of the disintegrating family.

    Bear with me a minute, and yes we have educators in the family.

    No matter how good a school is, no matter how much money is spent, no matter how good a job excellent teachers do, some kids are behind the eight ball when they first hit the door. And we've have over 4 decades of trying to make up for it AT SCHOOL rather than dealing with the root: fixing families.

    If you were "well educated" at a mythic 100 points, kids who are conceived in and being raised in stable satisfying marriages enter the door of preK with 50 points. Doesn't matter if they are black or white or purple, or if they are rich or poor or somewhere in between. And if those parents are more focused on raising the kids right than on careers (wealthy families) or having adult toys (redneck families) or protesting social woes (poor families) those kids are at 75 points on the first day of school.

    The final 25 points? Yeah, good schools help, as do parental involvement, community support, health care and adequate nutrition and clean safe housing.

    Obviously we cannot throw up our hands and not try to educate the kids 50-75 points handicapped. But we have to also find a way to stop the country wide denial and admit that those handicaps are real, are devastating, and lie not at the community's doorstep, but at the individual parents'. We have to find a way and the will to say that from this day forward, no more excuses, it is not ok to create children and not take responsibility for raising them properly. We have to find a way to use peer pressure on ourselves as adults to create a society that understands that while the village is helpful, it takes parents to raise children.

    Until we do, we won't accomplish anything more than throwing more money down the drain and flushing it. And watch more generations of children be shortchanged.

    Now if I were wise enough to figure out how to do this.............
    "Thanks" is not enough, Sarah. But it is all I've got.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  20. #60
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    I'm going waaaaayyyyyyy out on a limb here and agree our schools are the canaries in the coal mine, but not of community neglect.

    Rather, they are canaries of the disintegrating family.

    Bear with me a minute, and yes we have educators in the family.

    No matter how good a school is, no matter how much money is spent, no matter how good a job excellent teachers do, some kids are behind the eight ball when they first hit the door. And we've have over 4 decades of trying to make up for it AT SCHOOL rather than dealing with the root: fixing families.

    If you were "well educated" at a mythic 100 points, kids who are conceived in and being raised in stable satisfying marriages enter the door of preK with 50 points. Doesn't matter if they are black or white or purple, or if they are rich or poor or somewhere in between. And if those parents are more focused on raising the kids right than on careers (wealthy families) or having adult toys (redneck families) or protesting social woes (poor families) those kids are at 75 points on the first day of school.

    The final 25 points? Yeah, good schools help, as do parental involvement, community support, health care and adequate nutrition and clean safe housing.

    Obviously we cannot throw up our hands and not try to educate the kids 50-75 points handicapped. But we have to also find a way to stop the country wide denial and admit that those handicaps are real, are devastating, and lie not at the community's doorstep, but at the individual parents'. We have to find a way and the will to say that from this day forward, no more excuses, it is not ok to create children and not take responsibility for raising them properly. We have to find a way to use peer pressure on ourselves as adults to create a society that understands that while the village is helpful, it takes parents to raise children.

    Until we do, we won't accomplish anything more than throwing more money down the drain and flushing it. And watch more generations of children be shortchanged.

    Now if I were wise enough to figure out how to do this.............
    My wife has spent her life in education from several perspectives, starting with a number of years teaching in the elementary grades. She taught first in a rural poor district in Idaho. Then in what was at the time the best most affluent school district in the Kansas City area. (Blue Valley for you locals) After a few years of teaching she decided she could tell how a student would do based on meeting the parents. If the parents were concerned about the child's education and involved the kid would do fine. Any obstacles would be, for the most part, overcome. If the parents were disinterested and disengaged there was very little she could do to make much of a difference. She could pretty much predict long term educational outcomes in the 2nd grade. There were of course exceptions but they were few and far between.

    I agree the real problem is the family. Just look at strong family cultures that value education and how their kids do in school. (Asian community comes to mind) The problem is there is not an easy fix for the family. Decriminalizing drug use and treating it as a medical issue would help but not much chance of that. Treatment for mental illness other than tossing them on the street would help, but again no one wants to pay. Same thing for differently abled people and their families and the list could go on an on.

    I'm good with people pointing the finger at the family instead of the school system but if you do that then school choice only segregates the good families from the bad, leaving those kids whose parents don't care stuck with no chance and a future that is pretty dim through no fault of their own. Then when they get in trouble we act like they had the same chances as my kids who could read before they started school. Does this strike anyone else as an ethically problematic answer if not a morally problematic one? So... if folks want to complain about schools. Start voting for programs that do the things that will make society better.

    It is correct that throwing money at the schools won't fix them (or anything else for the matter) but we will never fix what is wrong without money and probably a lot more than people are comfortable with. What my dad used to say it true today, put your money were your mouth is. -- My philosophy prof used to say the same thing but in a more polite way, Show me your checkbook, I'll tell you your real values.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

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  21. #61
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    My wife has spent her life in education from several perspectives, starting with a number of years teaching in the elementary grades. She taught first in a rural poor district in Idaho. Then in what was at the time the best most affluent school district in the Kansas City area. (Blue Valley for you locals) After a few years of teaching she decided she could tell how a student would do based on meeting the parents. If the parents were concerned about the child's education and involved the kid would do fine. Any obstacles would be, for the most part, overcome. If the parents were disinterested and disengaged there was very little she could do to make much of a difference. She could pretty much predict long term educational outcomes in the 2nd grade. There were of course exceptions but they were few and far between.

    I agree the real problem is the family. Just look at strong family cultures that value education and how their kids do in school. (Asian community comes to mind) The problem is there is not an easy fix for the family. Decriminalizing drug use and treating it as a medical issue would help but not much chance of that. Treatment for mental illness other than tossing them on the street would help, but again no one wants to pay. Same thing for differently abled people and their families and the list could go on an on.

    I'm good with people pointing the finger at the family instead of the school system but if you do that then school choice only segregates the good families from the bad, leaving those kids whose parents don't care stuck with no chance and a future that is pretty dim through no fault of their own. Then when they get in trouble we act like they had the same chances as my kids who could read before they started school. Does this strike anyone else as an ethically problematic answer if not a morally problematic one? So... if folks want to complain about schools. Start voting for programs that do the things that will make society better.

    It is correct that throwing money at the schools won't fix them (or anything else for the matter) but we will never fix what is wrong without money and probably a lot more than people are comfortable with. What my dad used to say it true today, put your money were your mouth is. -- My philosophy prof used to say the same thing but in a more polite way, Show me your checkbook, I'll tell you your real values.
    I was having a conversation with my son (school teacher) and he told me that you can ask any teacher (liberal, conservative, or anywhere in between) and they will all tell you the same thing: If the parents don't care, the student won't care and failure is virtually guaranteed. He went on to say that's the same reason voucher programs don't help those students. If the parent doesn't care, they will not enroll in the program, won't follow through with placement, etc. His comment was that even then those students experience some benefit in that when other students leave their school they are left with smaller class sizes.

    He also made another comment that got me to thinking. He said that when parents tell their kids that they can't succeed because they are victims, society is against them, they are poor, and whites have it easier, then they are telling their kids that they can't succeed because they are not as good as whites. Instead they should be telling their kids that there are obstacles to overcome, but they can do it because they are capable and smart.

    95% of his students are African American and he really loves teaching those kids -- even the ones who can drive him up the wall.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson, John Kennedy - "thanks" for this post

  22. #62
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    What percentage of the special needs population does your school support? How many of your students have IEP's?
    We are limited in our IEP capabilty at this juncture, but the Porter County Educational Services does consultation on ISPs and 504 plans. They provide Speech and OT services as well. Probably5-7% have either an ISP or a 504 plan

  23. #63
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Richardson View Post
    We are limited in our IEP capabilty at this juncture, but the Porter County Educational Services does consultation on ISPs and 504 plans. They provide Speech and OT services as well. Probably5-7% have either an ISP or a 504 plan
    Good info thank you. Speech and OT are hard to fill here. Good to note a private institute services this population. Popular misconception is that private schools are not required to accept speceal needs and therefore don't . The fear us that for profit schools will take the stidents that would be high performing almost any situation and leave the high needs, aka expensive student to the public schools. Though i dont think this fear would be universally true, the scenario is notvwithout precedent.

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    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
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  24. #64
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    As a lifelong educator (and student!) I don't want to take anything away from the goal to educate ALL and help them to achieve their maximum potential, BUT I wish there could be more consideration given to both ends of the student spectrum:

    1. What should be done with those who don't put forth any effort to learn? Perhaps those students DO need to be put into an alternative form of school/classroom. Forcing them and their attitude to be with students who do want to learn is devastating to the educational process. I don't think throwing more money at schools is the answer to this problem.......it is a more intractable issue than money alone can solve. I even see this problem at the Christian higher ed level to a small degree, certainly less than it exists in public High Schools.

    2. Why do we always focus our sole attention on the poor student end of the spectrum? What about the best students, those at the other end? Are we really educating them to achieve their best potential when they are held back by the constant issues teachers have in dealing with the other less-motivated students?

    BILL
    Thanks Jim Bentley, Gina Stevenson, Glenn Messer, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  25. #65
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    No matter how good a school is, no matter how much money is spent, no matter how good a job excellent teachers do, some kids are behind the eight ball when they first hit the door. And we've have over 4 decades of trying to make up for it AT SCHOOL rather than dealing with the root: fixing families.
    There is some truth to this, and also a fair amount of misinformation. First, a well-run school can be a saving grace for kids with little or no family support. Second, the idea that public education is 'throwing money at a problem' is an unfair and untrue characterization.

    And let's be real. The aim of school choice might be to make sure that the best kids having the best parents have a chance at the best possible education, we know what they say about good intentions. The actual outcome is to sort out those on a career track from those on a prison track. I believe that writing off kids because they have lazy/greedy parents is immoral.

    It's easy to talk about fixing families, but that's typically the end of the conversation, when it should be the start of one. Are these lousy parents disengaged because they are morally inferior and hopelessly broken or are they consumed with providing the most basic needs - a prerequisite to higher needs like getting a good education?

    I believe that a point of view based on judgment and contempt for he most disadvantaged kids' lack of family support is a morally bankrupt position and any public policies that emerge from it are a sinful disregard for our neighbor.

    This doesn't mean that I have a solution, but I'm pretty sure that writing off the least of these isn't something that people of faith/conscience should be resigned to.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  26. #66
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    I believe that writing off kids because they have lazy/greedy parents is immoral.
    I would say its flat out evil, but tomAto/tomato, I suppose. Your post was "drop the mic" status btw.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Diane Likens, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  27. #67
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    2. Why do we always focus our sole attention on the poor student end of the spectrum? What about the best students, those at the other end?
    BILL
    We focus because they are a protected class and the law requires it and taxpayers fund it. If there are 10% of a student population that will succeed no matter the conditions, then there will be 10% that will fail, no matter the conditions. The latter 10 percent are a protected class while the former are not. However, the former are sought after by society, its the middle group that gets the lions share of the neglect. It is interesting to note that the 80% in the middle are neither a protected class AND succeed or fail based on the combination both internal (self) and external (environment) conditions.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
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  28. #68
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Race was not an argument against busing. Race diversity was the only real argument for busing. Those who favored busing believed that greater racial diversity would improve overall educational achievement. The results have not proven to have any significant impact on educational achievement for blacks or whites. What the people I knew in NC wanted was to be able to send their children to a neighborhood school. Some kids were arbitrarily bused miles from home to schools on the other side of town. Kids often left for school long before parents left for work.
    Race may never be the vocal or visible argument against busing, but its usually the main silent argument against it.

    Yes, racial diversity has been shown time and again to be the most significant change resulting in educational achievement.

    https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcar...df/2013456.pdf
    https://www.civilrightsproject.ucla....-60-051814.pdf

    Look at the periods between 1968-1988. Integration was the trend during this period. After 1988 the trend was to end busing programs, please look at the trend then.


    http://school-diversity.org/pdf/Dive...chBriefNo1.pdf
    Study showing that integration has a greater impact on student success for minority students than does an increase in take home pay.

    I can post more if you'd like.
    Voter ID laws are not designed to prevent minority voting.
    Name a voter ID law and I can show you how they've been crafted to negatively impact minorities. Or I can just point back to the ones in NC which were struck down for doing exactly that.

    Maybe you should go read up on why they were struck down. The long and short of it was that the people drafting those laws researched registered, by race who didn't have a driver's licence. They left a trail of breadcrumbs showing that the legislation was motivated by race alone.
    They are designed to prevent voter fraud. I know. It doesn't exist. Well, at least not as long as you don't get caught.....and aren't Russian.
    It doesn't exist! You don't have to go far to figure this out. Louisiana (IIRC) did a study of a few elections in the state and found no significant amount of voter fraud.
    More than half of all states have voter ID requirements. Some who don't will eventually add them.
    Many states have sales tax. Should all states have sales tax?
    Personally, I believe that the only reason to oppose voter ID laws is because you believe that there should be no restrictions on who can and can't vote. I do not believe that.
    Is there a problem with voter fraud that could be prevented by voter ID laws? No. The problem isn't there so there shouldn't be a push for a solution. But people are pushing for a solution, so if the problem isn't voter fraud, what is it? In NC it was racism.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Diane Likens, Cam Pence, Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  29. #69
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Name a voter ID law and I can show you how they've been crafted to negatively impact minorities. Or I can just point back to the ones in NC which were struck down for doing exactly that.

    Maybe you should go read up on why they were struck down. The long and short of it was that the people drafting those laws researched registered, by race who didn't have a driver's licence. They left a trail of breadcrumbs showing that the legislation was motivated by race alone. It doesn't exist! You don't have to go far to figure this out. Louisiana (IIRC) did a study of a few elections in the state and found no significant amount of voter fraud. Many states have sales tax. Should all states have sales tax? Is there a problem with voter fraud that could be prevented by voter ID laws? No. The problem isn't there so there shouldn't be a push for a solution. But people are pushing for a solution, so if the problem isn't voter fraud, what is it? In NC it was racism.
    Exactly!
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

  30. #70
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Good info thank you. Speech and OT are hard to fill here. Good to note a private institute services this population. Popular misconception is that private schools are not required to accept speceal needs and therefore don't . The fear us that for profit schools will take the stidents that would be high performing almost any situation and leave the high needs, aka expensive student to the public schools. Though i dont think this fear would be universally true, the scenario is notvwithout precedent.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
    There are some we cannot service, and we tell them so. I had a student I really liked whom I had to encourage his mom to enroll him in public school because of his cognitive disability. It should have happened earlier. but that was my first year with him. We have to do what is best for the student, even if it costs us revenue.
    Thanks John Kennedy, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  31. #71
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Exactly!
    ...and if one prefers the Constitution as its 18th century framers would interpret it, the only people who have any business voting are white male landowners. But since we can't roll things back that far, putting up barriers to voting will have to suffice.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  32. #72
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Richardson View Post
    There are some we cannot service, and we tell them so. I had a student I really liked whom I had to encourage his mom to enroll him in public school because of his cognitive disability. It should have happened earlier. but that was my first year with him. We have to do what is best for the student, even if it costs us revenue.
    Talk about timely discussion. Supreme Court Ruled today on an IDEA appeal. Analyzing for impact now.
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson

  33. #73
    Senior Member Roy Richardson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Talk about timely discussion. Supreme Court Ruled today on an IDEA appeal. Analyzing for impact now.
    That will have a significant impact if I am reading it correctly

  34. #74
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Richardson View Post
    That will have a significant impact if I am reading it correctly
    My district doesn't do deminimus standards, we try to maximize learning and intigration. For, us it will not change our standard but it probably will increase lawsuits and make judgements easier.

    Parents are not good judges of a special needs capability, being both unqualified clinically and biased.

    Their passion for their child is admirable but even a practitioner is not qualified to assess their own child.

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    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
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  35. #75
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

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    Re: Public Education Reform

    Good news for a change. This is how we 'roll':

    "Several eighth graders from Sycamore Middle School approached
    the Cheatham County Board of Education back in December with
    the idea to purchase a robot that would benefit students who were
    homebound due to illness. The students returned before the board
    at a work session on Tuesday and were surprised to find the Board
    had invested $3,000 in one of the robots. The program will be tested
    to see if additional robots could be purchased and used in the future
    with students who are unable to attend classes. The students said the
    idea was sparked by an episode of “Big Bang Theory” on CBS where
    the lead character Sheldon used to robot so he would never have
    to leave his apartment. The robot for now is named Sheldon, but
    the Board told the students to give the robot a name that would be
    used in the school district. Students pictured along with “Sheldon”
    who is being operated by Interim School Director Stacy Brinkley
    are Amanda Belt, Kaleb Nickens, Houston Hudspeth, and Railynn
    Brooksher. Not pictured student is Cameran Trail. SMS teacher
    Beth Stokes and Assistant Principal Robyn Miller were at the meeting
    to support their students."
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

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