+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 75

Thread: Public Education Reform

  1. #1
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Crofford View Post
    For the life of me, I've not been able to understand why we have to choose either to protect unborn children (GOP) or born children (DEMS). This has played out so clearly in Olkahoma, for example, where the same GOP controlled legislature will pass very pro-birth resolutions then turn around and gut public education funding. Why can't we do both? (And this happens in reverse on the DEM side, strong support for Head Start programs and simultaneously rabid support for abortion). In both instances, it's maddeningly inconsistent.
    Our education system is a mess and it's been proven that money will not fix it. It gets even worse as many are uncomfortably coming to the realization that higher education is performing quite badly when you look at the cost benefit ration. I fully agree that we should do both, but we seriously need to shelve the false notion that money will fix things.

    Thankfully we have an innovator in the position of Secretary of Education, maybe, just maybe, she will be able to break the stranglehold of unionism and bring real competition and change to our failing system.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  2. #2
    Senior Member Greg Crofford's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Posts
    1,651
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Our education system is a mess and it's been proven that money will not fix it. It gets even worse as many are uncomfortably coming to the realization that higher education is performing quite badly when you look at the cost benefit ration. I fully agree that we should do both, but we seriously need to shelve the false notion that money will fix things.

    Thankfully we have an innovator in the position of Secretary of Education, maybe, just maybe, she will be able to break the stranglehold of unionism and bring real competition and change to our failing system.
    If a car engine is sputtering, it seems like a pretty lame solution to take the engine out the car. Then, you'll just have a car that can't serve its purpose, i.e. to transport individulas where they need to go. Instead, you fix the engine. Funneling off needed funds from public education seems to me the equivalent of taking the engine out of the car.
    Achiever - Learner -Context - Intellection - Input

    Visit my theology weblog at: gregorycrofford.com
    Amazon author page: https://amazon.com/author/jgregorycrofford
    Facebook: Greg Crofford
    Twitter: @africasojourner

  3. #3
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Elkhart, IN
    Posts
    2,945
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Crofford View Post
    If a car engine is sputtering, it seems like a pretty lame solution to take the engine out the car. Then, you'll just have a car that can't serve its purpose, i.e. to transport individulas where they need to go. Instead, you fix the engine. Funneling off needed funds from public education seems to me the equivalent of taking the engine out of the car.
    It only seems that way because it is
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Diane Likens, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

  4. #4
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Crofford View Post
    If a car engine is sputtering, it seems like a pretty lame solution to take the engine out the car. Then, you'll just have a car that can't serve its purpose, i.e. to transport individulas where they need to go. Instead, you fix the engine. Funneling off needed funds from public education seems to me the equivalent of taking the engine out of the car.
    As someone well qualified to speak to this topic. I've been certified in every ASE category in automotive, heavy truck and collision repair, as well as being inducted into some automotive hall of fame, many moons ago.

    When an engine performs poorly, you repair the engine. Yes sir, right as rain. After spending lots of money at an ever increasing rate upon said engine with continued poor performance, a different metric needs to be employed. A decision needs to be made to replace the engine, or better, to replace the mechanic.

    No need to remove or replace our educators unless they are consistent poor performers or are intractable toward correction. Educators are great at what they do, they educate. What they teach should be left to the end user, the educator isn't especially qualified to decide what needs teaching.

    Most importantly is that we do not allow those who are failing excess input in forging a solution. Certainly we must listen to those in the trenches. Useful information will come from those with enough humility to recognize their own failures and express a desire for improvement. We need to cull out the strident intractable voices of arrogance.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  5. #5
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Northeast Georgia, USA
    Posts
    2,351
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    We need to cull out the strident intractable voices of arrogance.
    Yessiree!
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Jim Chabot - thanks for this funny post

  6. #6
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,288
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    we have an innovator in the position of Secretary of Education.
    Maybe you can help me, I can't seem to find any history of her being an "innovator."

  7. #7
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Maybe you can help me, I can't seem to find any history of her being an "innovator."
    i suppose that this might be an "eye of the beholder sort of thing," we might disagree. Here is what I see. She is a strong advocate for competition in the education business model. Her family background, both immediate and in laws bring a strong business outlook, to a traditionally inbred business. I'm seeing this as an innovative approach and outlook, coupled with what I see as a pretty strong aversion to the status quo, which can only lead to innovation.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Glenn Messer - "thanks" for this post

  8. #8
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,288
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    i suppose that this might be an "eye of the beholder sort of thing," we might disagree. Here is what I see. She is a strong advocate for competition in the education business model. Her family background, both immediate and in laws bring a strong business outlook, to a traditionally inbred business. I'm seeing this as an innovative approach and outlook, coupled with what I see as a pretty strong aversion to the status quo, which can only lead to innovation.
    Yes. But you still haven't answered my question. Just because her grandfather and husband's father launched innovative companies does not mean that she is an innovator. She has simply been blessed to be born to and married to billionaires. School choice is neither a new idea nor an innovation; being a proponent of such does not make one an innovator.

  9. #9
    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Duxbury, MA
    Posts
    1,277
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    As someone well qualified to speak to this topic. I've been certified in every ASE category in automotive, heavy truck and collision repair, as well as being inducted into some automotive hall of fame, many moons ago.
    Congratulations Jim on being in the Cooperstown of Auto Mechanics. I don't think any of us realized we had an all star celebrity in our midst.
    Thanks John Scott, Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  10. #10
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,288
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    Congratulations Jim on being in the Cooperstown of Auto Mechanics. I don't think any of us realized we had an all star celebrity in our midst.
    This is the episode where Gomer gets fired and moves into Andy's house and is doing auto repairs at all hours of the night in the driveway. Maybe Jim will take phone calls and give us over-the-phone diagnoses?? "I have this squeak..."

    Laughing David Troxler - thanks for this funny post

  11. #11
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,058
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Yes. But you still haven't answered my question. Just because her grandfather and husband's father launched innovative companies does not mean that she is an innovator. She has simply been blessed to be born to and married to billionaires. School choice is neither a new idea nor an innovation; being a proponent of such does not make one an innovator.
    If she can get anything past the NEA and the members of congress whose votes they buy, you can forget innovator; she's pure genius. If she can give control back to local jurisdiction and make school choice (including home schooling and parochial education) the norm for every student, then I'll sing her praises.

    I have no less than 16 relatives who are or have been involved in public education -- everything from district superintendent, to classroom teacher, to counselor, to coach, to administration -- and most will tell you that public education is a mess. I have one friend (a teacher) who told me to forget about the students using drugs; we should worry more about the teachers using drugs. Most classroom teachers who have been teaching 10 years or longer can tell you the year, month, and probably the day and hour when they can retire.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  12. #12
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Yes. But you still haven't answered my question. Just because her grandfather and husband's father launched innovative companies does not mean that she is an innovator. She has simply been blessed to be born to and married to billionaires. School choice is neither a new idea nor an innovation; being a proponent of such does not make one an innovator.
    See I did answer your question, you don't see school choice as an innovation, nor do I. What I do see is someone with a strong background for innovation, in a position where she can rework, reshape or just plain old change the status quo. I see innovation in the making. I'm an optimist, remember?

    We just don't necessarily agree, that's perfectly ok with me. i'm quite happy to wait and see. I do see the pitfalls, so called, that are associated with her approach, they don't bother me. I'm fine with letting those sleeping dogs be. No sense in pushing the disagreement further.

    Let's remember that Othman Ammann, wouldn't have been considered an innovator either. But he was.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Tim Bourland - "thanks" for this post

  13. #13
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Our education system is a mess and it's been proven that money will not fix it. It gets even worse as many are uncomfortably coming to the realization that higher education is performing quite badly when you look at the cost benefit ration. I fully agree that we should do both, but we seriously need to shelve the false notion that money will fix things.
    Well, paying teachers better might go a long way. Maybe increasing budgets so they don't have to purchase their own supplies might help too. So there's two things I know right off the top of my head that could be fixed by money.
    Thankfully we have an innovator in the position of Secretary of Education, maybe, just maybe, she will be able to break the stranglehold of unionism and bring real competition and change to our failing system.
    We have someone who doesn't understand the problems in education and will dare to breach Brown v Board of Education every single chance she can.

    I hope she accidentally signs her own resignation letter.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Cam Pence, Diane Likens, Martha Crafton - "thanks" for this post

  14. #14
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    If she can get anything past the NEA and the members of congress whose votes they buy, you can forget innovator; she's pure genius. If she can give control back to local jurisdiction and make school choice (including home schooling and parochial education) the norm for every student, then I'll sing her praises.

    I have no less than 16 relatives who are or have been involved in public education -- everything from district superintendent, to classroom teacher, to counselor, to coach, to administration -- and most will tell you that public education is a mess. I have one friend (a teacher) who told me to forget about the students using drugs; we should worry more about the teachers using drugs. Most classroom teachers who have been teaching 10 years or longer can tell you the year, month, and probably the day and hour when they can retire.
    You do realize that "school choice" is nothing more than legal segregation, right? White money for white schools, I don't want my kids in the same school as "those" kids.

    And I'm rather flabbergasted that you'd want the standards of education lowered. I'd be rather frustrated if my high school diploma carried the same weight as another kid who was homeschooled, but never took biology, chemistry or had a basic grasp of English grammar.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Diane Likens, Aaron Stapleton, Martha Crafton - "thanks" for this post

  15. #15
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Well, paying teachers better might go a long way. Maybe increasing budgets so they don't have to purchase their own supplies might help too. So there's two things I know right off the top of my head that could be fixed by money. We have someone who doesn't understand the problems in education and will dare to breach Brown v Board of Education every single chance she can.

    I hope she accidentally signs her own resignation letter.
    Teachers have to purchase their own supplies because they are paid too much. Each year, the union salary negotiations suck every available penny from the available funds leaving nothing for supplies. I've been a teacher, I know what the workload is and what the pay is. Every once and a while I think that my wife and I might have been better off as teachers. Currently in our area, the two of us would being a combined salary of between 120K and 160K per year, working only 180 days per year, and we would both be eligible for retirement. Seriously, it's a pretty good gig, I've done it. Our founding pastor and his wife were both teachers, they did well, we have teachers in our congregation, they earn good money and they are honest enough to say so.

    As for Brown vs. Board of Education, you appear to be making a spurious claim. I believe that her approach will provide greater and more equal opportunity, especially for inner city youth who are now trapped in a failing system and deserve much better than we have been giving them.

    But no problem, everyone is entitled to an opinion
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Aaron Stapleton - "thanks" for this post

  16. #16
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Teachers have to purchase their own supplies because they are paid too much. Each year, the union salary negotiations suck every available penny from the available funds leaving nothing for supplies. I've been a teacher, I know what the workload is and what the pay is. Every once and a while I think that my wife and I might have been better off as teachers. Currently in our area, the two of us would being a combined salary of between 120K and 160K per year, working only 180 days per year, and we would both be eligible for retirement. Seriously, it's a pretty good gig, I've done it. Our founding pastor and his wife were both teachers, they did well, we have teachers in our congregation, they earn good money and they are honest enough to say so.
    I think you're doing a large amount of assuming in that if you did okay then others did as well.
    As for Brown vs. Board of Education, you appear to be making a spurious claim. I believe that her approach will provide greater and more equal opportunity, especially for inner city youth who are now trapped in a failing system and deserve much better than we have been giving them.
    It's not a spurious claim, its the result of the policies she's pursuing. If anyone has the "opportunity" to go to a different school than is local, then it is the richer (whiter) kids who are going to be driven by their parents to a different school because they alone can afford to do so.

    I'd rather go the other direction and bus kids to schools that aren't only in affluent communities. It works, but no one wants to talk about it.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  17. #17
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,058
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    I think you're doing a large amount of assuming in that if you did okay then others did as well. It's not a spurious claim, its the result of the policies she's pursuing. If anyone has the "opportunity" to go to a different school than is local, then it is the richer (whiter) kids who are going to be driven by their parents to a different school because they alone can afford to do so.

    I'd rather go the other direction and bus kids to schools that aren't only in affluent communities. It works, but no one wants to talk about it.
    The system you are talking about is diversity based. The voters in Raleigh have fought huge battles over such a busing program. Contrary to what you are told or think, it doesn't improve the educational achievement of students. It only buses them from their own neighborhoods across town --- long bus rides. The kids from affluent families simply flee from the public system and attend private schools. Others go to home schooling.

    There are things that can be done that don't cost money.

    1. Get the federal government off the backs of teachers. In fact, take all politics and political ideology out of education.
    2. Take cell phones away from students during school hours.
    3. Put some teeth into the disciplinary system.
    4. Quit moving students up when they are not ready. Demand educational achievement.
    5. Require all administrative staff to spend at least 2 hours in classroom instruction every day.

    And that's just for starters.

    When public schools fail to achieve high educational standards then parents who care (even those who live on the edge of poverty -- I have seen it) will find another way to educate their children.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Victor, MT
    Posts
    4,101
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Teachers . . . are paid too much.
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

    Myers-Briggs Type: Introversion ---------- Intuition ---------- Feeling ---------- Perception (INFP)

    My Website & Blog: alucasfinch.net
    Thanks Benjamin Hobbs, Diane Likens, Eric Frey - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Benjamin Hobbs, David Troxler, Diane Likens, Rich Schmidt - thanks for this funny post

  19. #19
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    288
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    And I'm rather flabbergasted that you'd want the standards of education lowered. I'd be rather frustrated if my high school diploma carried the same weight as another kid who was homeschooled, but never took biology, chemistry or had a basic grasp of English grammar.
    So i've only lurked this thread our of interest with no intent to comment....but this crosses a line.

    What a completely uniformed and uneducated statement to make about homeschooling. Maybe you should actually investigate this subject before making an uninformed statement. You might find that major colleges now have specific recruiting departments for homeschoolers because overall, they do much better than their public school peers in the college environment. On average, homeschool SAT and ACT scores are higher. And most can actually hold intelligent conversations with adults.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you Benjamin, but my kids highschool diploma already carries as much weight (and more in some cases) than your public school diploma. Not to gloat, but my daughter was accepted into an elite dance program at the University of Texas only to turn it down to be a missionary, and my son has a 3.9 gpa while he works toward his (FUNDED BY A FULL SCHOLARSHIP) music degree. I only pray my third will do the same once he graduates with his worthless homeschool diploma. Oh, and my other two feel that they have a call to full time ministry. I can only praise my Lord and Savior that I did not allow them to be indoctrinated by the values of the public education system!

    And while we are at it, lets talk about public education. It is in SHAMBLES. My brother-in-law who teaches high school gives me the inside scoop. Now, if were only him, We could say personal opinion. But the problem is that I hear the same exact stories from other teacher friends in multiple states. They aren't even allowed to give a kid an "F" anymore. "it might hurt the poor babies self esteem." There is absolutely NO discipline in the public schools anymore. They are not allowed to expel anyone. Heck, I know elementary school teachers who get punched by the bigger kids who aren't allowed to do anything about it. Everyone graduates even when they shouldn't (many of whom, as you say, have NO grasp of English grammar).

    And just for the record, I'm with Glen. If for some reason my kids were in public school and someone tried to tell them they were now going to have to ride to the other end of the city to go to school, they would be taken out in a heartbeat. Busing has NEVER worked. I think Glen nailed it on his 5 points.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    The system you are talking about is diversity based. The voters in Raleigh have fought huge battles over such a busing program. Contrary to what you are told or think, it doesn't improve the educational achievement of students. It only buses them from their own neighborhoods across town --- long bus rides. The kids from affluent families simply flee from the public system and attend private schools. Others go to home schooling.
    Yes, busing does work. What ends up happening in most cases is that the rich flee (just as you said) or segregationist leaning folks try to destroy the system as soon as it gets put in place.

    But what you described as the flaws in the system aren't actually flaws in the system. You might as well claim that kids cycling to school isn't a safe practice because you went around throwing sticks into their spokes.
    There are things that can be done that don't cost money.

    1. Get the federal government off the backs of teachers. In fact, take all politics and political ideology out of education.
    Sounds fine if you're advocating for actual standards instead religious ideology.
    2. Take cell phones away from students during school hours.
    This is already being done in many areas.
    3. Put some teeth into the disciplinary system.
    Yeah.... disciplining kids who aren't given a chance in life doesn't sound like a great idea.
    4. Quit moving students up when they are not ready. Demand educational achievement.
    Are these kids given the resources they need?
    5. Require all administrative staff to spend at least 2 hours in classroom instruction every day.
    So we're supposed to get off the backs of teachers, but then force other people into their classrooms?
    And that's just for starters.

    When public schools fail to achieve high educational standards then parents who care (even those who live on the edge of poverty -- I have seen it) will find another way to educate their children.
    Sure, and that means suing the state for busing too.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  21. #21
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    So i've only lurked this thread our of interest with no intent to comment....but this crosses a line.

    What a completely uniformed and uneducated statement to make about homeschooling. Maybe you should actually investigate this subject before making an uninformed statement. You might find that major colleges now have specific recruiting departments for homeschoolers because overall, they do much better than their public school peers in the college environment. On average, homeschool SAT and ACT scores are higher. And most can actually hold intelligent conversations with adults.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you Benjamin, but my kids highschool diploma already carries as much weight (and more in some cases) than your public school diploma. Not to gloat, but my daughter was accepted into an elite dance program at the University of Texas only to turn it down to be a missionary, and my son has a 3.9 gpa while he works toward his (FUNDED BY A FULL SCHOLARSHIP) music degree. I only pray my third will do the same once he graduates with his worthless homeschool diploma. Oh, and my other two feel that they have a call to full time ministry. I can only praise my Lord and Savior that I did not allow them to be indoctrinated by the values of the public education system!

    And while we are at it, lets talk about public education. It is in SHAMBLES. My brother-in-law who teaches high school gives me the inside scoop. Now, if were only him, We could say personal opinion. But the problem is that I hear the same exact stories from other teacher friends in multiple states. They aren't even allowed to give a kid an "F" anymore. "it might hurt the poor babies self esteem." There is absolutely NO discipline in the public schools anymore. They are not allowed to expel anyone. Heck, I know elementary school teachers who get punched by the bigger kids who aren't allowed to do anything about it. Everyone graduates even when they shouldn't (many of whom, as you say, have NO grasp of English grammar).
    I know plenty of intelligent, well-educated homeschooled kids. However, I also know plenty of indoctrinated children who couldn't balance a checkbook. Christian private schools are just as hit and miss as far as education goes. My biggest problem with homeschooling and private schools is that there aren't very good standards.

    I've worked with plenty of children who lost their families, ended up on the streets or in the foster system while going to public school. They worked their behinds off just to get a diploma and they get put in the same basket as those who stayed home and studied a few hours a day or went to a private Christian school. Who would I hire if I were an employer? The public school kid, as I know what education they got.

    I know you don't want to admit it, but the vast majority of parents who homeschooled their children or sent them to private school did so because they could afford to. They were more affluent. They didn't want their kids to go to school with "those kids" or didn't want them learning "that stuff." If that isn't a perfect picture of white Southerners post war I don't know what is.
    And just for the record, I'm with Glen. If for some reason my kids were in public school and someone tried to tell them they were now going to have to ride to the other end of the city to go to school, they would be taken out in a heartbeat. Busing has NEVER worked. I think Glen nailed it on his 5 points.
    Busing HAS worked until it gets sabotaged.

    I'm actually pursuing change for my oldest son right now so that he will essentially be bused to a poorer school next year. All of my kids are getting a public school education and will be rubbing shoulders with the public housing kids as often as they can.

    If you truly want to improve public schools then you only have yourself to blame. Participation is the only way to truly improve.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Diane Likens, Aaron Stapleton - "thanks" for this post

  22. #22
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    288
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    My biggest problem with homeschooling and private schools is that there aren't very good standards.

    I've worked with plenty of children who lost their families, ended up on the streets or in the foster system while going to public school. They worked their behinds off just to get a diploma and they get put in the same basket as those who stayed home and studied a few hours a day or went to a private Christian school. Who would I hire if I were an employer? The public school kid, as I know what education they got.

    I know you don't want to admit it, but the vast majority of parents who homeschooled their children or sent them to private school did so because they could afford to. They were more affluent. They didn't want their kids to go to school with "those kids" or didn't want them learning "that stuff." If that isn't a perfect picture of white Southerners post war I don't know what is.
    1) Yea, that's what we need - more government intrusion in homeschooling so the same people who screwed up the public schools can screw up everything else..NOT

    2) Do you know why my kids don't have to spend as many hours per day studying? Because its actually QUALITY time. Have you ever considered how absolutely ludicrous it is that kids sit in a public classroom all day long only to have to come home to hours and hours of homework? Something is BROKE. Oh, and yea, I've seen the comparison of work ethics between homescool and public school. Don't mishear me. There are a lot of hard working kids in public school, but your bias that public school kids work harder is completely unjustified.

    3) I wont speak of private school, but the homeschool people I know are far from the "affluent" that you claim. In fact its laughable...I'M A PASTOR. Myself and the many others that I know have just made different choices in life. We choose to not have 1000 cable channels. I choose to drive vehicles that all have over 200,000 miles on them. I choose to not eat out very often, rarely go to see a movie, and not take expensive family vacations in order to provide my children with a much better quality education (oh, sorry...and RELIGIOUSLY INDOCTRINATED).

    And your claims of bigotry are offensive. Not one of the many homeschool families that I know do so because of any racial motivation whatsoever.

  23. #23
    Host Book, Movie & GA forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Middletown, DE
    Posts
    7,393
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Teachers have to purchase their own supplies because they are paid too much. Each year, the union salary negotiations suck every available penny from the available funds leaving nothing for supplies. I've been a teacher, I know what the workload is and what the pay is. Every once and a while I think that my wife and I might have been better off as teachers. Currently in our area, the two of us would being a combined salary of between 120K and 160K per year, working only 180 days per year, and we would both be eligible for retirement. Seriously, it's a pretty good gig, I've done it. Our founding pastor and his wife were both teachers, they did well, we have teachers in our congregation, they earn good money and they are honest enough to say so.

    As for Brown vs. Board of Education, you appear to be making a spurious claim. I believe that her approach will provide greater and more equal opportunity, especially for inner city youth who are now trapped in a failing system and deserve much better than we have been giving them.

    But no problem, everyone is entitled to an opinion

    I'm not going to argue the major point, because I think, in many places (although not all), teachers are paid pretty well. Starting salaries could probably be a little better, but I find our family pretty well taken care of on a teacher's salary. If we're going to speak on straight numbers - I did do a per-hour analysis on what my wife made as a classroom teacher, and it worked out to between $13 and $15 per hour. That's not bad, but it's not great. I do suspect its low for the kind of training and experience we want from teachers, but I agree its enough that people who aren't very good at it continue in the profession, largely for the money. It's a little bit of both, at times.

    I would ask when you were a teacher. My wife's been teaching for 10 years now and I'd say the profession is entirely different now from her first year and considerably different from five years ago. I don't think someone who taught 10 or 15 or 20 years ago would have any relevant experience for present day education. It's an entirely different world.

    The one thing I've appreciated from the Sec of Education is her statement that she doesn't think the "education system" uses its money wisely. I agree that not enough gets funneled down to local school levels, although I've not heard her say or do anything that will help it.

    In the end, Education is inherently local. No school district should have the same form or system as the next, because they're different places. It's the one-sized-fits-all belief that seems, to me, to be making things worse (and that's just as prevalent in our local school district as it is in DC).

    I lived through defacto school choice when we were in KC - there were so many charters, most every student who applied could get into one - the problem was that the public schools were left with only students whose parents didn't care or have the time to apply for a charter. The economic, educational, and community support for these kids was near non-existent; it was a huge recipe for disaster. Market forces only work when we're ok with someone losing. For me, when it comes to health or education, we can't afford for people to lose.

    I'd love to see some better incentives for competition, but we have to do it in ways that don't negatively affect students (which is largely as issue of economics, which, in the US, disproportionately affects black families).

    Our schools are the canary in the coalmine of community neglect. The problems in the schools are because of the problems in the community - unless we give schools and principals far more power to influence the communities in which they reside, education is not going to be the savior of distressed neighborhoods.
    ...just my $.02.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post

    I lived through defacto school choice when we were in KC - there were so many charters, most every student who applied could get into one - the problem was that the public schools were left with only students whose parents didn't care or have the time to apply for a charter. The economic, educational, and community support for these kids was near non-existent; it was a huge recipe for disaster. Market forces only work when we're ok with someone losing. For me, when it comes to health or education, we can't afford for people to lose.

    I'd love to see some better incentives for competition, but we have to do it in ways that don't negatively affect students (which is largely as issue of economics, which, in the US, disproportionately affects black families).
    This. Charter schools do nothing to improve public schools. They simply leave public schools decimated. They are not the solution to the problem. They are a major contributing factor (as is any educational approach that pulls students out of the public option).
    “Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”

    - Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom
    Thanks Diane Likens, Cam Pence, Benjamin Hobbs, Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  25. #25
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    ...


    3) I wont speak of private school, but the homeschool people I know are far from the "affluent" that you claim. In fact its laughable...I'M A PASTOR. Myself and the many others that I know have just made different choices in life. We choose to not have 1000 cable channels. I choose to drive vehicles that all have over 200,000 miles on them. I choose to not eat out very often, rarely go to see a movie, and not take expensive family vacations in order to provide my children with a much better quality education (oh, sorry...and RELIGIOUSLY INDOCTRINATED).
    Might I suggest that the situation that you claim to "choose not to" have something is quite different than someone not being able to have that choice in the first place. To boil it down, if you claim you "choose" not to buy something its because you can afford to buy it.

    If you can choose then you're more affluent than you consider yourself to be.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  26. #26
    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boise, ID City of Trees
    Posts
    6,480
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    As one who attended public school and was home schooled for my ninth grade due to rheumatic fever and taught in both public and mission boarding school, the best thing Betsy DeVos could do for public education is to work herself out of a job, meaning to do what Pres. Trump said "turn the power back to the people" and do away with the Federal Department of Education. The operation of the DOEd with all of its bureaucrats drains too many funds away from states who would more wisely use them at the local level and allow vouchers for those who wish to home school and private school their youngsters.

    In an education course I studied for and presented a paper on the French School System whereby the design was that every student at the same level across the whole nation were all turning the same page in the same textbook at the same time each hour of each day. Now that is the "one size fits all" socialistic education run amuck.

    Having taught 4th grade through college I have known students who were sent to that church college to straighten out their kid whom the parents had not.

    At one conference I was impressed with the idea that the most powerful people in the nation were education professors since their influence was exponentially multiplied by the number of their education students/potential teachers of the upcoming general public. It is too bad that these education professors allow themselves to be overly influenced by prevailing political influences on todays public and private campuses.

    As for pay structure my highest pay for being a public school principal of both elementary and high school and teaching 6 courses in the high school was $10,000/yr. whereas my total remuneration at the SVIS now Native American Christian Academy mission school was more considering my monthly $550, plus apartment and cafeteria privileges.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Might I suggest that the situation that you claim to "choose not to" have something is quite different than someone not being able to have that choice in the first place. To boil it down, if you claim you "choose" not to buy something its because you can afford to buy it.

    If you can choose then you're more affluent than you consider yourself to be.
    And that's why Betsey DeVos want to give them that choice! Drum roll please!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  28. #28
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    And that's why Betsey DeVos want to give them that choice! Drum roll please!
    Keep the rich rich and the poor poor.

    I see where you're going with this.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  29. #29
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    As one who attended public school and was home schooled for my ninth grade due to rheumatic fever and taught in both public and mission boarding school, the best thing Betsy DeVos could do for public education is to work herself out of a job, meaning to do what Pres. Trump said "turn the power back to the people" and do away with the Federal Department of Education. The operation of the DOEd with all of its bureaucrats drains too many funds away from states who would more wisely use them at the local level and allow vouchers for those who wish to home school and private school their youngsters.

    In an education course I studied for and presented a paper on the French School System whereby the design was that every student at the same level across the whole nation were all turning the same page in the same textbook at the same time each hour of each day. Now that is the "one size fits all" socialistic education run amuck.

    Having taught 4th grade through college I have known students who were sent to that church college to straighten out their kid whom the parents had not.

    At one conference I was impressed with the idea that the most powerful people in the nation were education professors since their influence was exponentially multiplied by the number of their education students/potential teachers of the upcoming general public. It is too bad that these education professors allow themselves to be overly influenced by prevailing political influences on todays public and private campuses.

    As for pay structure my highest pay for being a public school principal of both elementary and high school and teaching 6 courses in the high school was $10,000/yr. whereas my total remuneration at the SVIS now Native American Christian Academy mission school was more considering my monthly $550, plus apartment and cafeteria privileges.
    You know what kind of thing happens when the states get to control what is taught in schools and how funding gets to be spent? You get Louisiana and Alabama not providing any sex education. You get Kansas removing textbooks that don't fit in with Fundamentalist Christian doctrine.

    On the other hand the Feds actually want everyone to have a good education, not just those who can afford it.

    You're absolutely right that there's plenty of money flowing in DC where it shouldn't. The standardized testing companies have got a racket going.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Diane Likens, Rich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post

  30. #30
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    I'm not going to argue the major point, because I think, in many places (although not all), teachers are paid pretty well. Starting salaries could probably be a little better, but I find our family pretty well taken care of on a teacher's salary. If we're going to speak on straight numbers - I did do a per-hour analysis on what my wife made as a classroom teacher, and it worked out to between $13 and $15 per hour. That's not bad, but it's not great. I do suspect its low for the kind of training and experience we want from teachers, but I agree its enough that people who aren't very good at it continue in the profession, largely for the money. It's a little bit of both, at times.

    I would ask when you were a teacher. My wife's been teaching for 10 years now and I'd say the profession is entirely different now from her first year and considerably different from five years ago. I don't think someone who taught 10 or 15 or 20 years ago would have any relevant experience for present day education. It's an entirely different world.

    The one thing I've appreciated from the Sec of Education is her statement that she doesn't think the "education system" uses its money wisely. I agree that not enough gets funneled down to local school levels, although I've not heard her say or do anything that will help it.

    In the end, Education is inherently local. No school district should have the same form or system as the next, because they're different places. It's the one-sized-fits-all belief that seems, to me, to be making things worse (and that's just as prevalent in our local school district as it is in DC).

    I lived through defacto school choice when we were in KC - there were so many charters, most every student who applied could get into one - the problem was that the public schools were left with only students whose parents didn't care or have the time to apply for a charter. The economic, educational, and community support for these kids was near non-existent; it was a huge recipe for disaster. Market forces only work when we're ok with someone losing. For me, when it comes to health or education, we can't afford for people to lose.

    I'd love to see some better incentives for competition, but we have to do it in ways that don't negatively affect students (which is largely as issue of economics, which, in the US, disproportionately affects black families).

    Our schools are the canary in the coalmine of community neglect. The problems in the schools are because of the problems in the community - unless we give schools and principals far more power to influence the communities in which they reside, education is not going to be the savior of distressed neighborhoods.
    Thanks Ryan, this shows some reasonableness. My teaching days were quite a while back, I do realize that things have changed considerably since then, some for the good and some for the bad. Back in the day we were free to teach whatever pleased us, within some pretty wide margins. It was good for those of us who took the task seriously, and bad for the students exposed to teachers with better ideas. I can remember getting myself in trouble because one of my Seniors turned me in for teaching Algebra to the class. When I got to the office, I quickly looked around and asked where Dave Cox was. My administrator was quick to say the this had nothing to do with him. I responded that he was the one who was supposed to teach them Algebra, it was a prerequisite to my class and they needed to know it! A couple of hours later and I had driven him half crazy and he relented. Today we have standardized testing and our teachers must perform, it's a big improvement.

    On the other hand we have no child left behind, when the simple truth is that not every child is capable of receiving an education, nor are all children needing one. Like the Boy Scout example that Billy offered a while back, we are hamstringing ourselves when we must teach to the lowest common denominator, thighs have gotten worse in this regard. If we are going to offer choice, and more importantly provide access for those who cannot currently afford it, then we will need to give our Public Schools a break. I'm quite sure that it is politically incorrect to say so, but we do need to leave some children behind. Should a student and or parent choose not to care, then we must respect that choice, we are killing our best teachers when we saddle them with impossible burdens. This sort of relief is more important than pay, the proof will come when our better teachers leave the public schools to work at choice schools for lower pay.

    We need to provide a quality education for those who choose to participate. One can only lead a horse to water, if he won't drink then you need to drown him. We are drowning our children, some of whom may be better off if we allow them to cut loose. That being said, we need to have a second chance program for those who realize that they made a bad choice. Yes you are right, market forces will require that there will be casualties, the sad and absolutely unavoidable truth is that if we allow for zero failure, we will insure systemic failure.

    I agree that we aren't using our education monies wisely. Unfortunately we have yet to come to the realization that the teachers unions purpose is not to provide better education, but to provide better conditions for it's workers, and more work for them. It seems that with each passing year we add more and more support staff to ease the workload on our teachers, this is a poor use of funds. Better to pay teachers more, expect more from them and we also need the freedom to cull out the underperformers. I'll admit bias here, I've run my business on the thought that we hire only the better tradesmen, we pay better than average, we produce a better than average product and we charge more for our product than does our competition. While I do realize that underperformers need a home, I'm not Santa.

    On the pay thing, lets remember that teachers are supposed to be professionals, I do realize that having a union tends to sully this claim but lets try. Professionals aren't paid by the hour, they are paid to get a job done, those who are better at their jobs work less hours than those who are less qualified or efficient. I'm thinking that I misspoke when I said that teachers are paid too much, I should have said that they are paid well, money isn't the problem, we need to provide better conditions, we need to give our teachers the same conditions that they will enjoy at a charter school. Competition brings change or it brings failure. I did go back and do a quick calculation of my pay back in the dark ages, and I came up with $20.37 per hour when I worked. I do realize that I was overqualified for the position, which was one of my reasons for leaving, still they did pay good money. The median pay for teachers in my area are somewhere in the middle sixties, I do know a few who make in excess of eighty, which is where I would anticipate being if I had stayed on. Not bad pay and I still wonder a bit if I would have been better off.

    Then again, I'm not the sort of person who goes to work every day. I'm heading out the door in a few minutes to go riding in Maine and plan to come back on Saturday so that I can be in Church on Sunday. Going to work every day is pretty much a deal breaker for me.

    Almost forgot! Absolutely agree, education is inherently local, and control need to be returned to the States to decide what works best for them.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Glenn Messer - "thanks" for this post

  31. #31
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Norton, MA Connor, ME
    Posts
    11,875
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Keep the rich rich and the poor poor.

    I see where you're going with this.
    Yeah, she is proposing to provide aid to the poor and that somehow keeps them poor? I'm not going anywhere with this, except to say that we need to provide equal opportunity for inner city youth. Not equal no opportunity like we have now.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  32. #32
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,001
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Yeah, she is proposing to provide aid to the poor and that somehow keeps them poor? I'm not going anywhere with this, except to say that we need to provide equal opportunity for inner city youth. Not equal no opportunity like we have now.
    No, she's been suggesting that people be able to take money out of the public system (vouchers) and allow more affluent students to go to whatever school they want.

    The only people that don't get to choose in her system are the poor.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  33. #33
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    197
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I'm quite sure that it is politically incorrect to say so, but we do need to leave some children behind.
    Probably a step or two past politically incorrect...

    I agree with the sentiment to a degree, but would argue that we're making the son pay for the sin of the father when we say something like this. A situation in our church comes to mind with a mother of 4 young kids. She's in and out of rehab and/or jail, neighbor brings the kids to church and many times makes sure they're headed to school. These kids have a huge uphill battle. The mother puts very little value on education, and how is the 6-year old supposed to know that it's better for her to go sit at a desk all day rather than play and watch TV? A few years of absentee parenting can put a child way behind the curve at school, and by saying we'll just leave those kids behind, we're effectively saying that because they were born to a poor mother who made a lot of bad decisions, they are doomed to a life of _______.

  34. #34
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,381
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Public Education Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Our education system is a mess and it's been proven that money will not fix it.
    What does this mean exactly?

    Saying that 'it's been proven...' does not meet any known standard of proof.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  35. #35
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,288
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    No, she's been suggesting that people be able to take money out of the public system (vouchers) and allow more affluent students to go to whatever school they want.

    The only people that don't get to choose in her system are the poor.
    Exactly.

    Here's an example.
    The private school costs $20k a year.
    The voucher will pay out $10k.
    The more affluent will be able to come up with the other half.
    For the poor, the voucher is never even an option, because the "other half" is never going to be available.

  36. #36
    Senior Member John Reilly's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Keene, NH
    Posts
    1,378
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Public Education Reform

    My wife has a Masters Degree in Special Education. She writes Individualized Education Plans (IEP) for children identified with learning disabilities. Sometimes an IEP is used to help children with emotional and behavioral issues. My wife has had some students return to visit her over the years to thank her for teaching them to read. Some of her students are very bright but have a reading challenge called dyslexia. Our concern about vouchers is that private schools currently are not staffed to handle special education students and/or emotionally challenged and behavior issues. Will the voucher system require private schools to accept special education students and behavioral, emotionally challenges and disruptive students? If not, the public school will suffer an exodus of gifted students and be left with intellectually challenged students and disruptive students.

  37. #37
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,288
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Yeah, she is proposing to provide aid to the poor and that somehow keeps them poor? I'm not going anywhere with this, except to say that we need to provide equal opportunity for inner city youth. Not equal no opportunity like we have now.
    I like that.

    So, let's start by not cutting funding for free meals to the poor students. Let's make the educational environment totally equal for all students, and not having a body that is desperately hungry (which directly impacts the academic success of those students) seems to be square one. If we can't seem to squeeze out compassion at that point, our children - all our children - have no hope.
    Thanks Craig Laughlin, Cam Pence, Gina Stevenson, Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  38. #38
    Senior Member Dan Henderson's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,109
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    I like that.

    So, let's start by not cutting funding for free meals to the poor students. Let's make the educational environment totally equal for all students, and not having a body that is desperately hungry (which directly impacts the academic success of those students) seems to be square one. If we can't seem to squeeze out compassion at that point, our children - all our children - have no hope.
    Ha! $0.38 per meal served reimbursement. They can keep it as far as I am concerned.

    While I agree we should pay for all students to eat while at school (Breakfast and Lunch), I do not agree on compassionate terms (compassion is not a function of government). I agree on the practical level. If we can feed them and make them laugh first thing in the morning, I believe education outcomes would improve by a logarithmic factor, all else remaining equal.
    Last edited by Dan Henderson; March 20th, 2017 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Corrected Reimbursement Rate
    Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. - Gilbert K. Chesterson
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  39. #39
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    10,381
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why can't we discuss politics in a civil manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    Exactly.

    Here's an example.
    The private school costs $20k a year.
    The voucher will pay out $10k.
    The more affluent will be able to come up with the other half.
    For the poor, the voucher is never even an option, because the "other half" is never going to be available.
    It's a scientific law.

    Nature abhors a vacuum.

    A truly free market abhors the middle class.

    Vouchers and schemes to redirect public education funding to private schools is a means of sorting American society into two groups: aristocrat or serf. For the record, this is no innovation at all, but is a very old model. Not surprisingly, it is favored by current and aspiring aristocrats.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks John Reilly, Cam Pence, Tim Bourland, Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post

  40. #40
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,058
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Public Education Reform

    I have 3 grandchildren who have and are attending private schools. While they are expensive, they do not cost $20,000 and their parents forego other things in order to see that they get a good education. Their parents also pay school taxes which fund public schools -- which their children do not attend.

    One of my daughters could not afford private schools. She and her family ate a lot of Ramen noodles, lived in a small trailer, and refused to ever ask us for anything. She pulled her children from failing public schools and home schooled them. They maintained a rather lax schedule and I worried about their ability to succeed in college level work. I needn't have worried. All have excelled at college level work and even graduate level work. They are absolutely convinced that they owe much of their success to their mother's decision and sacrifice.

    One of my daughters struggled through her own early education. Her last 2 years of public education were a nightmare. She literally begged me for any other option but there were no other options available to us. With her parents 'encouragement', she hung in there. Today she is a certified Montessori instructor with quite a reputation where she lives. She is especially good with autistic children. When her kids were ready to begin school, she visited every school within 30 miles of their home. Any school that would not allow her to sit in on a class was scratched from her list of choices -- even public schools. Her children ended up in a charter school 30 miles from their home. My daughter stayed involved and eventually served as chairman for the board of directors of the school. Her son has one year of college, but has decided to take a year off and work. His sister is in the veterinarian medical program at NC State. Some would probably say isn't it wonderful that she could afford to send them to a school 30 miles away. You wouldn't want to say that to her face.

    My son and his wife both teach in public schools. My son has more teacher-parent conferences in a month than most teachers have in a year. Just when I think he is ready to quit, he surprises me with some success story. He teaches 8th grade. The first day he taught he stumbled over a difficult name. The young lady informed him that, "you said my name wrong and, by the way, you're not the boss of me!" Believe it or not, he likes his students and wants them all to succeed. His wife 'quits' several times a year in the same way a pastor quits every Monday. Both of their children attend public schools where they are a decided minority. They do well because their parents stay on top of their education. Both perform well above grade level and part of the challenge is to keep them challenged in their education.

    All of my children, including those who teach, would favor school choice vouchers in a heart beat.

    In North Carolina a proposal was made to provide vouchers for school choice. The voucher would be for an amount less than the amount the states paid public schools per student. In other words, the public schools would have less students, but more money per student. They still fought it. They were opposed to school choice under any circumstances.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts