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Thread: Will we ever say enough's enough?

  1. #81
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Gun control has morphed to abortion. If I can find a way to morph this thread to gay marriage before it gets locked, that has to be a NN record of some kind
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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  2. #82
    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Access to abortion has shown over the last few decades to decrease the number of abortions.
    [CONTINUING THREAD TANGENT]
    I have a hunch that this is a reach.

    Abortion rates are indeed at the lowest level since legalization but it doesn't appear that access to abortion has caused this decline. Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute don't even appear to be making this claim: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...nce-roe-v-wade

    The best you might be able to do would be to show correlation (and I don't think you can), not causation. As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. Restrictions on abortion may also be contributing to reductions in the number of abortions. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    [CONTINUING THREAD TANGENT]
    I have a hunch that this is a reach.

    Abortion rates are indeed at the lowest level since legalization but it doesn't appear that access to abortion has caused this decline. Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute don't even appear to be making this claim: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...nce-roe-v-wade

    The best you might be able to do would be to show correlation (and I don't think you can), not causation. As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. Restrictions on abortion may also be contributing to reductions in the number of abortions. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
    Come on Bud, this is the internet, correlation is always and absolutely causation!

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  4. #84
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    [CONTINUING THREAD TANGENT]
    I have a hunch that this is a reach.

    Abortion rates are indeed at the lowest level since legalization but it doesn't appear that access to abortion has caused this decline. Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute don't even appear to be making this claim: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...nce-roe-v-wade

    The best you might be able to do would be to show correlation (and I don't think you can), not causation. As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. Restrictions on abortion may also be contributing to reductions in the number of abortions. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
    Bud, forgive me, but you just circumvented the point. It doesn't really matter if greater access to abortions reduce abortions or not (I do believe I could demonstrate that they do). The issue I was bringing up is that for "pro-life" absolutists, certain things will never be on the table for discussion. Instead of looking at the numbers to see what will reduce the number of abortions, they would rather make it illegal at all costs.

    And to be blunt, you did exactly what I hoped someone wouldn't do.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  5. #85
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
    Just a side note: this point is absolutely correct and, at this point, has been proven as fact by many, many studies (beyond just NPR). We don't spend nearly enough time on this point in this discussion and the fact that there are still WAY too many Christians claiming to be pro-life that have stood and continue to stand in the way of even this proven measure. No I don't believe think the potential prospect of sexual promiscuity (especially among young people) is a good one, but between kids having sex before they are married (which they will very likely do regardless) and having the number of abortions reduced, I'll side with safety (and, ultimately, life).
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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  6. #86
    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Bud, forgive me, but you just circumvented the point. It doesn't really matter if greater access to abortions reduce abortions or not (I do believe I could demonstrate that they do). The issue I was bringing up is that for "pro-life" absolutists, certain things will never be on the table for discussion. Instead of looking at the numbers to see what will reduce the number of abortions, they would rather make it illegal at all costs.

    And to be blunt, you did exactly what I hoped someone wouldn't do.
    I knew what your point was. I just didn't think it was appropriate to make it using what I see as a reach with an unsupportable assertion. I'm not deep on the research (there's an understatement!) on the topic of abortion availability and abortion rates, but in reading your statement I thought to myself something along the lines of, "that dog don't hunt".

    Your point that there are people who will hold to their guns in the face of incontrovertible evidence can be made with a more supportable assertion. That's the point I was trying to make. I did try to label it as a thread diversion. 🙂

  7. #87
    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Gun control has morphed to abortion. If I can find a way to morph this thread to gay marriage before it gets locked, that has to be a NN record of some kind
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL
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  8. #88
    Senior Member David Gerber's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL
    Young earth/old earth would be a safer choice.

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  9. #89
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL
    You COULD just blow everyone's mind by claiming you are a youth earth evolutionist. And, of course, by "blow everyone's mind", I mean "make everyone hate you"
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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  10. #90
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    I knew what your point was. I just didn't think it was appropriate to make it using what I see as a reach with an unsupportable assertion. I'm not deep on the research (there's an understatement!) on the topic of abortion availability and abortion rates, but in reading your statement I thought to myself something along the lines of, "that dog don't hunt".

    Your point that there are people who will hold to their guns in the face of incontrovertible evidence can be made with a more supportable assertion. That's the point I was trying to make. I did try to label it as a thread diversion. 🙂
    Perhaps my trap was laid a bit too cruelly.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  11. #91
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL

    I thought you would be used to it by now.
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  12. #92
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Perhaps my trap was laid a bit too cruelly.
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  13. #93
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Just a side note: this point is absolutely correct and, at this point, has been proven as fact by many, many studies (beyond just NPR). We don't spend nearly enough time on this point in this discussion and the fact that there are still WAY too many Christians claiming to be pro-life that have stood and continue to stand in the way of even this proven measure. No I don't believe think the potential prospect of sexual promiscuity (especially among young people) is a good one, but between kids having sex before they are married (which they will very likely do regardless) and having the number of abortions reduced, I'll side with safety (and, ultimately, life).
    Indeed, the pro-life camp has not been very strategic in this regard. If some people use abortion as a contraceptive method of last resort, then promoting less offensive methods would make a lot of sense. By focusing its effort on extremes - a world where abortion is illegal and sex occurs only between married people - the pro-life camp has probably done more to keep Roe v. Wade in place than anything that the pro-choice camp has done. Those who favor keeping abortion as a method of contraception need only 'point at the crazy' vision of the pro-life position to make their point.

    (attempting to get back to topic...)
    The tangent on abortion is simply a case study on the pointlessness of moving to extremes on both sides. As long as the gun rights conversation is framed as a choice between approving the murder of schoolchildren vs. the government breaking down doors to seize all of the guns in America, this conversation is not a conversation at all...more like rhetorical masturbation.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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  14. #94
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    And I got an email today from Vet Friends with a link where I can buy a laser sight that will "turn your handgun into a sniper rifle". FREE SHIPPING!

    Beautiful.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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  15. #95
    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Perhaps my trap was laid a bit too cruelly.
    Forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying. Maybe I'm dense. I don't understand how using a poorly supported(if that) assertion is cruelty. It just seems like a poor argument to me. You could have made your point without making what I believe to be an unsupportable claim.

    Perhaps you're conflating my response to your post with my position on the issue of abortion as well as access to guns. I was not responding to any argument on those issues so much as to point out what I saw as a flaw in your supporting claim. One need not stoop to using (what I saw as) an unsupportable claim to make their point.

    If it's necessary to say so, I will grant you that there are people who will hold to their position in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong or that there is a better way- - on the issue of abortion and on the issue of guns (and so many other issues). The NPR article that I posted (the result of a search for support for your assertion that abortion availability has led to a decrease in abortions) clearly demonstrates this. Both "sides" saw their reasons for the decline in the statistics.
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  16. #96
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    Forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying. Maybe I'm dense. I don't understand how using a poorly supported(if that) assertion is cruelty. It just seems like a poor argument to me. You could have made your point without making what I believe to be an unsupportable claim.

    Perhaps you're conflating my response to your post with my position on the issue of abortion as well as access to guns. I was not responding to any argument on those issues so much as to point out what I saw as a flaw in your supporting claim. One need not stoop to using (what I saw as) an unsupportable claim to make their point.

    If it's necessary to say so, I will grant you that there are people who will hold to their position in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong or that there is a better way- - on the issue of abortion and on the issue of guns (and so many other issues). The NPR article that I posted (the result of a search for support for your assertion that abortion availability has led to a decrease in abortions) clearly demonstrates this. Both "sides" saw their reasons for the decline in the statistics.
    I agree that the causation argument is very weak. (e.g. availability of abortion services has a causal relationship with fewer abortion procedures performed) This is right up there with the notion that an armed society is a polite society. I call baloney on that as well.

    My gun rights friends point to mass shootings as evidence that America isn't armed enough. Do we really want to live in a society in which every public place is virtually assured to have an armed person present?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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  17. #97
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    Forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying. Maybe I'm dense. I don't understand how using a poorly supported(if that) assertion is cruelty. It just seems like a poor argument to me. You could have made your point without making what I believe to be an unsupportable claim.

    Perhaps you're conflating my response to your post with my position on the issue of abortion as well as access to guns. I was not responding to any argument on those issues so much as to point out what I saw as a flaw in your supporting claim. One need not stoop to using (what I saw as) an unsupportable claim to make their point.
    The temptation was great enough that it was unavoidable that someone would focus on the claim rather than the argument in which it was used. If I had said something like "buying more lemons decreases the rate of abortion" I doubt as if the claim would have been as offensive as to be doubted by those of a pro-life inclination.
    If it's necessary to say so, I will grant you that there are people who will hold to their position in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong or that there is a better way- - on the issue of abortion and on the issue of guns (and so many other issues). The NPR article that I posted (the result of a search for support for your assertion that abortion availability has led to a decrease in abortions) clearly demonstrates this. Both "sides" saw their reasons for the decline in the statistics.
    Agreed.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  18. #98
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    And I got an email today from Vet Friends with a link where I can buy a laser sight that will "turn your handgun into a sniper rifle". FREE SHIPPING!

    Beautiful.
    Keep up Diane! We have moved on to the next "hot button" topic Actually, I'm with staying contained to this one
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  19. #99
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Do we really want to live in a society in which every public place is virtually assured to have an armed person present?
    Sounds like where I live. And I don't know if there has EVER been a mass shooting here. (Not since white people sent the Salish tribe packing, anyway.) Of course, since there are only about 40,000 people in the Bitterroot Valley (with less than 1/4 of them living in an established town), the low population might play a factor, too.

    Ah, causation! How fun it is to imagine the "what ifs"!
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  20. #100
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post

    (attempting to get back to topic...)
    The tangent on abortion is simply a case study on the pointlessness of moving to extremes on both sides. As long as the gun rights conversation is framed as a choice between approving the murder of schoolchildren vs. the government breaking down doors to seize all of the guns in America, this conversation is not a conversation at all...more like rhetorical masturbation.
    I agree and I actually appreciate practical solutions being offered and discussed (gun bans, stricter guns control, way less strict gun control, "only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", etc.), as at least those are practical solutions and lines of thinking (even though I certainly disagree with a few of them) as opposed to "dark hearts of men" and "sinners gone sin" arguments which I find to be lazy and disingenuous at this point if used in a strictly defeatist manner. All that to say......this thread has actually gone much better than I would have believed in the first page
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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  21. #101
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    this thread has actually gone much better than I would have believed in the first page
    I'll have to see if I can change that.
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  22. #102
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Indeed, the pro-life camp has not been very strategic in this regard. If some people use abortion as a contraceptive method of last resort, then promoting less offensive methods would make a lot of sense. By focusing its effort on extremes - a world where abortion is illegal and sex occurs only between married people - the pro-life camp has probably done more to keep Roe v. Wade in place than anything that the pro-choice camp has done. Those who favor keeping abortion as a method of contraception need only 'point at the crazy' vision of the pro-life position to make their point.
    Sorry,I know you're trying to get back on topic, but I can't let your assertion go. That is not an accurate portrayal of the pro-life camp. There has been a huge outcry against dismemberment/partial birth abortions for the past 15 years or so. Proposed legislation to make it rare or illegal. That's not an "extreme all or nothing position" on abortion. That's finding something that most citizens can agree on as "wrong" and making it illegal. The same can be said for third trimester abortions. National Right To Life has helped to bring these issues to the front of the debate. So, I disagree that is their focus has been an all or nothing approach. Actually, it's the opposite of what you and others have been saying on here.
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  23. #103
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    Sorry,I know you're trying to get back on topic, but I can't let your assertion go. That is not an accurate portrayal of the pro-life camp. There has been a huge outcry against dismemberment/partial birth abortions for the past 15 years or so. Proposed legislation to make it rare or illegal. That's not an "extreme all or nothing position" on abortion. That's finding something that most citizens can agree on as "wrong" and making it illegal. The same can be said for third trimester abortions. National Right To Life has helped to bring these issues to the front of the debate. So, I disagree that is their focus has been an all or nothing approach. Actually, it's the opposite of what you and others have been saying on here.
    What I am commenting on is the fact that pro-lifers want to criminalize all abortions, but they are at least pragmatic enough to focus attention on criminalizing the most barbaric procedures; third trimester and partial-birth abortions. Any legislative wins in this arena are mostly symbolic, as the vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester.

    Because pro-lifers tend to be convinced that contraception is a license to fornicate, they are generally opposed to common sense strategies that are proven to reduce unwanted pregnancies to start with and thus reduce demand for abortions. By promoting sex education and distributing contraceptives to those who intend to be sexually active, Planned Parenthood has done more to reduce the practice of abortion than all of the pro-life groups combined.

    On the question of gun control, the camps are the opposite... with conservatives favoring little or no regulation on gun ownership and liberals wanting to greatly curtail civilian freedom to own guns.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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  24. #104
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Billy--yep, where I live you are almost always in the presence of someone armed with a gun. And yet we have very few gun deaths, accidental or homicidal. What we have are many knife deaths, as that is the weapon of choice of the local gang members. While I support a lot of limits the NRA opposes, just the presence of a gun apparently does not equate being in more danger.

    Diane--laser sights sell very well here. Of course, hunters are not interested. Not even sure if they are legal. Neither are the bad guys for some reason I do not understand. But they sell terrifically to our "crunchy mama transplants." These ladies are into jogging and running, usually trail running, and don't or won't carry wasp spray (better reach that pepper or bear spray.) They know they may encounter an angry bear or worse a mountain lion and need protection. With adrenaline running I would think a laser dot to show you are on the mark would probably be a life saver. These ladies are otherwise very back to nature greenies who oppose guns for "everyone else."

    Go figure. Human nature
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  25. #105
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    Sorry,I know you're trying to get back on topic, but I can't let your assertion go. That is not an accurate portrayal of the pro-life camp. There has been a huge outcry against dismemberment/partial birth abortions for the past 15 years or so. Proposed legislation to make it rare or illegal. That's not an "extreme all or nothing position" on abortion. That's finding something that most citizens can agree on as "wrong" and making it illegal. The same can be said for third trimester abortions. National Right To Life has helped to bring these issues to the front of the debate. So, I disagree that is their focus has been an all or nothing approach. Actually, it's the opposite of what you and others have been saying on here.
    Criminalizing 100% of any type of abortion seems to be an absolutist position to me.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  26. #106
    Host CE and Gen. Disc. forums David Parker's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    And I got an email today from Vet Friends with a link where I can buy a laser sight that will "turn your handgun into a sniper rifle". FREE SHIPPING!

    Beautiful.
    Just got home from Nashville where we have been celebrating Easter with family. Wow...this thread has sure wondered around...

    To help get back on topic, what you received is obviously silly marketing hype. "sniper rifles" don't use laser sights. They are for short range use, for when you may not have time or opportunity to use the targeting sights atop the weapon. Laser sights are a great help for targeting accuracy in those circumstances.

    My wife's everyday carry gun is a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace laser sight. It instantly puts a red dot on target without having to bring the weapon to the usual sight line. Very important safety and accuracy feature, especially for small guns, and where quick response is required, which is what most self defense scenarios would require. It is a very good thing to help you only hit your intended target.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Though we cannot think alike, may we not love alike? May we not be of one heart, though we are not of one opinion? Without all doubt, we may." ~ John Wesley
    Thanks Glenn Messer - "thanks" for this post

  27. #107
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    Just got home from Nashville where we have been celebrating Easter with family. Wow...this thread has sure wondered around...

    To help get back on topic, what you received is obviously silly marketing hype. "sniper rifles" don't use laser sights. They are for short range use, for when you may not have time or opportunity to use the targeting sights atop the weapon. Laser sights are a great help for targeting accuracy in those circumstances.

    My wife's everyday carry gun is a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace laser sight. It instantly puts a red dot on target without having to bring the weapon to the usual sight line. Very important safety and accuracy feature, especially for small guns, and where quick response is required, which is what most self defense scenarios would require. It is a very good thing to help you only hit your intended target.
    I realize it was "marketing hype" though I don't find it "silly". I find it sad.
    Last edited by Diane Likens; April 20th, 2017 at 11:46 AM.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

  28. #108
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    To help get back on topic, what you received is obviously silly marketing hype. "sniper rifles" don't use laser sights. They are for short range use, for when you may not have time or opportunity to use the targeting sights atop the weapon. Laser sights are a great help for targeting accuracy in those circumstances.
    Haha, yes. A laser sight on a sniper rifle would be worse than useless, as it doesn't correct for pesky things like gravity.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  29. #109
    Senior Member

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    Wow...this thread has sure wondered around....
    Those who wonder enough almost inevitably end up wandering.
    Laughing David Parker, Jim Chabot, Gina Stevenson, Diane Likens - thanks for this funny post

  30. #110
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Those who wonder enough almost inevitably end up wandering.
    Wow, thinking ahead to Christmas already? No wonder you are so well prepared. You're the man!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  31. #111
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Wow, thinking ahead to Christmas already? No wonder you are so well prepared. You're the man!
    It could be thought of as a gift, but sometimes I'm not real sure of the source.

  32. #112
    Full Member Barbara Moulton's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    it has always seemed obvious to me. We will never be able to stop gun violence. We will never be able to help every person who is mentally ill before they become violent.

    We CAN limit access to guns that make it possible to kill dozens of people in a few minutes.

    One gun death is too many. But in this imperfect world we can at least lessen the impact of shooting rampages. That is what gun control can do. What it does in my country. We still have shootings. But our laws were strengthened after the Montreal 1989 massacre which killed 14. So we simply don't see the same horrifying carnage.
    Patience With Questions Blog

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