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Thread: Will we ever say enough's enough?

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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Angry Will we ever say enough's enough?

    So there's another shooting at an elementary school today. This time (going on as I type this) it's in San Bernardino.

    I can't stand it!
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    So there's another shooting at an elementary school today. This time (going on as I type this) it's in San Bernardino.

    I can't stand it!
    Given that there was no substantial change after Sandy Hook, I'd say that the 2nd amendment is a higher value than the lives of those who are gunned down in schools, churches and other public places. So the short answer, is 'no'.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Given that there was no substantial change after Sandy Hook, I'd say that the 2nd amendment is a higher value than the lives of those who are gunned down in schools, churches and other public places. So the short answer, is 'no'.
    I'm afraid you're right, Billy. It's horrendous. And stupid. And frustrating. So many people's "thoughts and prayers" will go out to families and the community. And nothing will change. And there will be another one. And another. And another. And people will continue to send "thoughts and prayers" and buy their guns and sell their guns (without background checks) and nothing will change.

    I'm tired. So tired.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    I'm afraid you're right, Billy. It's horrendous. And stupid. And frustrating. So many people's "thoughts and prayers" will go out to families and the community. And nothing will change. And there will be another one. And another. And another. And people will continue to send "thoughts and prayers" and buy their guns and sell their guns (without background checks) and nothing will change.

    I'm tired. So tired.
    Honestly, I have no idea what the solution is. Laws are an ineffective deterrent against misbehavior by criminals and those who are mentally ill. The most that the law can do in these cases is to guarantee punishment for those who misuse guns and those who are complicit in misuse.

    So even if all gun sales were banned tomorrow, access to guns would be virtually unchanged and the market for them would simply move underground; with a vast inventory and no shortage of people willing to buy/sell as an act of 'civil' disobedience.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting.
    A "typical" school shooting. God help us!

    Latest news is that an 8-year-old won't be going home tonight. Or ever.
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    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    Sorry Sarah, I'm not picking on you, but I've heard this said in defense of the right to bear arms that it can't be ignored.

    The big difference is that the average home needs kitchen utensils and food preparation and eating implements for people to go about their normal daily lives. The reality is that for the VAST MAJORITY of people (even in America) they don't need a gun to go about their daily lives.

    From my many discussions here on Naznet, I have noticed that for many Americans there is a high emphasis upon keeping the letter of the law even when it seems to many "outsiders" it is rediculous to do so. There seems to be little thought given to whether they were ever good laws, or whether they are now "out of date" or for what the purpose the original laws were meant to serve. The law is the law, therefore, if the first amendment gives me the right to bear arms then I can own and carry whatever weapon that I think I need for what ever reason I think appropriate (apparently) in accordance with the law. And if I think that a "Brown Bess" Musket or a "Charleville" Musket, or an "American Long Rifle" as envisaged by the founding fathers won't cut it for my purposes, then, hey, what the heck, I'll get me an M16 or an ACR or an AK-5, or something even heavier. (The bigger the better right?)

    But why stop there, how about a 105 mm cannon in the Garage, a heavy machine gun in the living room or a Phalynx Gun on the roof to deter intruders? No one would be game enough to touch you then..... or would they? Or would the weapons themselves make you a target for those who would want to get their hands on them? Now I'd hope there would be laws to prevent those horrible weapons to be owned by average citizens... but I'm trying to make a point that weapons on their own will not protect people. Yet, if there are laws that prohibit people from owning the horrible weapons of mass destruction that I've suggested above (and I hope that there are) then would such prohibitions be in opposition to the 1st Amendment?

    As an Aussie looking in it all seems madness!

    Sure bad things will and do happen to innocent people. Even in my country where guns are harder to obtain, some guns still hit the streets and are used in crime. But we don't have either the level of gun related violence or the higher levels of gun related accidents or anywhere near the level of spontaneous family conflict violence resulting from the use of guns either.

    Yes, occasionally, we'll have a news story of some "druggie" trying to hold up a Petrol Station attendant with a knife, but often these are unsuccessful since the shop keepers will fight back with cricket or baseball bats and chase the offenders away. Sometimes, people die in such incidents, and yet, our overall level of deaths proportional to our population size when compared to the US is still far less. I'd suggest that guns only makes people bolder, and if you are a "nutter" with a gun, then you will do a lot more damage more quickly then if you didn't have one. This would apply too to people who momentarily lose their reason and give into their fears, prejudices or obsessions.

    Trust me, if the Australian experience of a society with fewer guns is anything to go by, you guys would be a lot better with off without them.

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    This is what I've been hearing/reading. This was domestic violence that happened at a school.

    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts. Especially considering that murder entered our world just one generation after creation. There is only One who can help us, there is no other cure.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts.
    No amount of laws will stop people from manufacturing, selling, and using illicit drugs. Yet we have very stringent drug laws.

    All I know is that what we're doing isn't working. Perhaps it's time to try something else.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    This is what I've been hearing/reading. This was domestic violence that happened at a school.

    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts. Especially considering that murder entered our world just one generation after creation. There is only One who can help us, there is no other cure.
    We need to remember that the Sandy Hook School shootings in Newtown, CT also began as a domestic violence incident when the shooter shot and killed his mother first before taking his weapons and malice to the school. As sad and heartbreaking as the school massacre was, that one woman is the forgotten victim in that sad story.
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    My argument stands on its own merit. Please remember several facts: I live where guns are a necessity to protect life against predatory four footed wildlife. Banning guns won't make you safer from bad guys who get them illegally, but would make me in more danger. Also bear in mind I agree we need some new laws. I have a mentally ill felon for a son, who should never get a gun. Yet his last bout in prison was for gun possession. He got it illegally and got his hunting license legally. I agree we need to toughen up on background checks.

    BUT those won't help really in the long run. What WILL help more is to provide adequate beds for the mentally ill AND use and increase laws for involuntary confinement. We need to get quite serious as a culture when it comes to domestic violence and enforcement of orders of protection. We need to really beef up sentences for those using guns in a crime. Seems so unfair my son could hurt someone with a gun he obtained illegally while underage and an escapee from a facility, then serve only 15 years, then get caught with a gun again and serve 60 DAYS. Clearly he is unstable and unable to make right choices. I hate, as his mom, to say it, but he needs permanent commitment in a truly secure facility. Don't tell me again he was "stable on his meds when we released him." DUH!

    Rather than banning guns for those of us who depend on them for safety and not from other people, the Sandy Hook shooter had long exhibited behavior requiring permanent commitment.

    So I agree we need to grow a spine to stop this madness. But we need to get to the root causes, which seldom are that guns are obtainable legally and too easily. (Note I DO agree a felon or a person who has ever been diagnosed mentally ill should not get them.) I also recognize however that it is often illegally obtained guns that are used to kill.

    So I agree with tightening background checks but don't see it as the sole answer.

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    Senior Member Wilson Deaton's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    No amount of laws will stop people from manufacturing, selling, and using illicit drugs. Yet we have very stringent drug laws.

    All I know is that what we're doing isn't working. Perhaps it's time to try something else.
    Out of the same mouths, I sometimes hear:
    "We need laws against abortion."
    "We need laws supporting one man/one woman marriages."
    "Guns? Laws won't help."

    I wish I could understand that logic.

    Wilson
    "But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)

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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    This is what I've been hearing/reading. This was domestic violence that happened at a school.

    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts. Especially considering that murder entered our world just one generation after creation. There is only One who can help us, there is no other cure.
    Translation: we shouldn't do anything which might inconvenience myself or those of similar opinions because this problem isn't personal.

    You should know by now, or at least be informed at this moment, that blaming any loss of human life or health on "sin" without any appeal or acknowledgement to readily available prophylactic means is cold-hearted, and selfish.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    So I agree with tightening background checks but don't see it as the sole answer.
    I am in agreement with you -- it's most certainly NOT the sole answer. We don't fund mental health services. In fact, some of us are wanting to strip coverage for mental health services from health insurance policies. Let's CHANGE THAT. Some of us recently overturned a ban on gun purchases by people who are receiving social security disability benefits for mental health issues. Let's CHANGE THAT. Tell me how -- I beg you. I do my best to change those things (at the ballot box). How about you?

    My schizophrenic neighbor has three handguns and a shot gun that I know of. He acquired every one of them legally. In fact, rumor has it he has a concealed carry permit. THAT'S what happens when the NRA has a bigger voice in DC than I do.

    I'm trying so hard to keep my post from being "political". This particular topic makes that difficult if not downright impossible, though.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    My argument stands on its own merit. Please remember several facts: I live where guns are a necessity to protect life against predatory four footed wildlife. Banning guns won't make you safer from bad guys who get them illegally, but would make me in more danger. Also bear in mind I agree we need some new laws. I have a mentally ill felon for a son, who should never get a gun. Yet his last bout in prison was for gun possession. He got it illegally and got his hunting license legally. I agree we need to toughen up on background checks.

    BUT those won't help really in the long run. What WILL help more is to provide adequate beds for the mentally ill AND use and increase laws for involuntary confinement. We need to get quite serious as a culture when it comes to domestic violence and enforcement of orders of protection. We need to really beef up sentences for those using guns in a crime. Seems so unfair my son could hurt someone with a gun he obtained illegally while underage and an escapee from a facility, then serve only 15 years, then get caught with a gun again and serve 60 DAYS. Clearly he is unstable and unable to make right choices. I hate, as his mom, to say it, but he needs permanent commitment in a truly secure facility. Don't tell me again he was "stable on his meds when we released him." DUH!

    Rather than banning guns for those of us who depend on them for safety and not from other people, the Sandy Hook shooter had long exhibited behavior requiring permanent commitment.

    So I agree we need to grow a spine to stop this madness. But we need to get to the root causes, which seldom are that guns are obtainable legally and too easily. (Note I DO agree a felon or a person who has ever been diagnosed mentally ill should not get them.) I also recognize however that it is often illegally obtained guns that are used to kill.

    So I agree with tightening background checks but don't see it as the sole answer.
    Sarah,
    Thank you for your candor. I cannot imagine the heartache that you must feel as a mother and the burden this has heaped on your family, both trying to be supportive of your son and at the same time recognize the potential threat that exists. You live in a very difficult situation.

    I think what tends to happen is we only apply "one size fits all" remedies to difficult matters. The 2nd Amendment is viewed, at least by some, as a one size fits all document, which they argue should not be broken down for other situations. Until a majority can agree that some reasonable steps may be applicable, we will ever say enough is enough.

    Sarah, you have my deep appreciation for the struggle you and your family face on a personal level.

    dave t
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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I think tightening background checks will certainly help or at least be a good start. That being said, I don't think it will happen. I don't know that there is a simple solution. I think writing this off as a sin problem is just a lazy tactic to serve the political aspects of this issue. Lots of things are sin problems and are still tightly control and sometimes banned and are fully supported by the same people that want to use the same excuse to do nothing about gun laws. I do know this: as a gun owner, I feel a responsibility to do something as opposed to nothing but shaking my head, sending prayers, and talking about how sinful people can be.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    No amount of laws will stop people from manufacturing, selling, and using illicit drugs. Yet we have very stringent drug laws.

    All I know is that what we're doing isn't working. Perhaps it's time to try something else.
    We have very stringent drug laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least a significant part of the problem. We also have very stringent gun laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least plays a role in the problem. I love consistency.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Site Manager G R 'Scott' Cundiff's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I was just looking at this Wikipeda article on federal gun laws in the United States. There are a lot of them. The article also quotes the late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia who wrote:
    Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
    I'm impressed that this man, known as a firm Originalist understood the Second Amendment to be limited in it's reach and his support of any law that keeps guns out of the hands of people who intend to use them to do harm (or who might be prone to do harm) to other people.

    At the same time, I understand that there are something like 200,000,000 guns in this country. If someone could wave a magic wand and make them all disappear (with the exception of those required by military and law enforcement) I *think* I'd favor it even though I know there are many reasonable exceptions.

    However, of course, there is no magic wand. The gun genie is out of the bottle so we have to find ways to minimize the tragic consequences of living in a country with a gun culture that dates to our nation's founding.

    If I had an answer to this I would offer it. At this point, in the most recent shooting (as well as most others) a bunch of gun laws were broken leading up to the shooting so I struggle with "more gun laws" being a legitimate answer - especially in light of the number of guns already out there.

    Speaking as a follower of Jesus, I do think we Christians are a bit too quick to dismiss the heart issue here. If God's people immediately set aside the core need of humanity, then who is there left to be salt and light? I think that should be our first response and any others be grudgingly accepted while we stubbornly insist we know the "real" Answer.

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    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Each state used to have what were called in the vernacular "insane asylums," I know because a relational connection spent their last years of life in one and died there, but then there were those that considered them discriminatory so they were done away with. For some permanent incarceration is the solution. But that boxes us into a case by case determination. As I read this morning's accounts after further investigation, as the victims mother stated that "he was a ticking time bomb" and those are not always easy to identify. Picking a hundred people at random and try to determine how many of those are "ticking time bombs" would be discriminatory. We just have to plea for God's mercy and grace to solve these issues. One of several reasons I take the stress of this type of news to the throne of God's grace. Praying, Diane, that your sense of frustration will be met by God's almighty Grace.

    Somehow a previous attempt to edit this post got missed. My first year of teaching was a class of similar youngsters, so I have personal understanding of the victims care and love for her class.
    Last edited by Jim Franklin; April 11th, 2017 at 06:17 PM.
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    Each state used to have what were called in the vernacular "insane asylums," I know because a relational connection spent their last years of life in one and died there, but then there were those that considered them discriminatory so they were done away with. For some permanent incarceration is the solution. But that boxes us into a case by case determination. As I read this morning's accounts after further investigation, as the victims mother stated that "he was a ticking time bomb" and those are not always easy to identify. Picking a hundred people at random and try to determine how many of those are "ticking time bombs" would be discriminatory. We just have to plea for God's mercy and grace to solve these issues. One of several reasons I take the stress of this type of news to the throne of God's grace. Praying, Diane, that your sense of frustration will be met by God's almighty Grace.
    I can just picture it... We pray to God on an issue like this, and his answer is, "What have *you* done about it?"
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  21. #21
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    We have very stringent drug laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least a significant part of the problem. We also have very stringent gun laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least plays a role in the problem. I love consistency.
    The federal government has stringent drug laws. State governments make up their own gun laws. Certainly could be part of the problem.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    The federal government has stringent drug laws. State governments make up their own gun laws. Certainly could be part of the problem.
    Diane, this is just mistaken. The federal government has gun laws and drug laws. The state also has gun laws and drug laws. Municipalities have both as well.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    Each As I read this morning's accounts after further investigation, as the victims mother stated that "he was a ticking time bomb" and those are not always easy to identify. .
    With all due respect, Brother, it sounds like his mother sure identified it pretty easily.

    Picking a hundred people at random and try to determine how many of those are "ticking time bombs" would be discriminatory. We just have to plea for God's mercy and grace to solve these issues. One of several reasons I take the stress of this type of news to the throne of God's grace. Praying, Diane, that your sense of frustration will be met by God's almighty Grace.
    I sometimes wonder whether God wants to slap some sense into some of God's children. Almighty Grace? How about we use the brains God gave us? We've been given the ability to think critically, to analyze the world around us, to mitigate danger, and to address safety. Unfortunately, it would appear that God didn't give everyone the desire.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Mark Bolerjack's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    Absolutely right, Sarah. But you know that the left is going to blame it on gun control and the second amendment.
    Godspeed.

    Mark B








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  25. #25
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolerjack View Post
    Absolutely right, Sarah. But you know that the left is going to blame it on gun control and the second amendment.
    Mark, that sounds incredibly political to me.

    That said, tell me where YOU place the blame, how YOU recommend it be fixed, and how many dead school children YOU are willing to accept. Do you have grandchildren? If so, how many of them are YOU going to sacrifice before you realize that a solution is needed?

    This tragedy didn't affect YOU personally, so you're quick to belittle those who are absolutely heart-sick over it. If gun control ISN'T the solution, what IS? What we're doing's not working. We need to try something different. What's YOUR idea? If you DON'T have an idea, please just sit down, read another Bible verse to justify basic heartlessness, and go on about your life.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Mark, that sounds incredibly political to me.

    That said, tell me where YOU place the blame, how YOU recommend it be fixed, and how many dead school children YOU are willing to accept. Do you have grandchildren? If so, how many of them are YOU going to sacrifice before you realize that a solution is needed?

    This tragedy didn't affect YOU personally, so you're quick to belittle those who are absolutely heart-sick over it. If gun control ISN'T the solution, what IS? What we're doing's not working. We need to try something different. What's YOUR idea? If you DON'T have an idea, please just sit down, read another Bible verse to justify basic heartlessness, and go on about your life.
    Sorry, but this post is not fair, and moves the agenda not one inch. Mark is NOT responsible for what happened. You can capitalize all the YOUS you want, and it will not change this fact. I could ask YOU the exact same thing, for YOU are just as responsible as him, or me. He is not willing to accept any dead children, and neither are you. You just demonized someone for disagreeing with you, and that is out of bounds, and rather sad. We have dead school children in Sweden, in Scotland, and a host of other places where gun laws are different than here. I would even bet Mark has a host of ideas to try, and many of them have nothing to do with gun laws. But then again, maybe the point here is to exploit a sad event to push a political agenda. I would rather not step over the dead that quickly.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    But then again, maybe the point here is to exploit a sad event to push a political agenda. I would rather not step over the dead that quickly.
    Just pushing the bodies into a hole and carrying on the status quo is quite possibly the longest-running political agenda there is.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Just pushing the bodies into a hole and carrying on the status quo is quite possibly the longest-running political agenda there is.
    You assume that a political position is the answer. Good luck with that. If you want to claim that the answer to a situation where someone pushed past 3 or 4 laws is another law, and then say with confidence the key is the 5th law - well, I think that is a tough sell. All the while ignoring a host of cultural and value factors that continue to be ignored. That is your right, but perhaps yours is not the solution you seem to claim. Since you seem to be awfully ready to blame people who disagree with your political position.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  29. #29
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I hesitate to enter here; we've been here so many times before. No one in their right mind ever takes the death of a child lightly. It evokes a grief I can only imagine .... and hope to never experience. I also grieve for the woman who was killed. Two of the greatest mass killings of children in the US were carried out by bombings --- the bombing of OKC (15) and the bombing of Bath, MI.(38) Some of us believe that the most prolific mass murderer of children was a man named Kermit Gosnell. Most of his killings were done under the protection of law.

    Part of the problem is that, for many, the only acceptable solutions are driven by people who are on the far outside fringes. Side A says that there are no legal limits to the 2nd amendment. Side B says all guns should be banned. Most of us fall somewhere in between those extremes. We recognize that most gun owners are reasonable, law abiding, citizens who accept the responsibility of gun ownership seriously. The vast majority of gun owners will live through their entire lives without ever killing or even injuring another person with a firearm. They are your neighbors, friends, and even family members. When a senseless killing such as this occupies public attention, then the call for stringent gun control escalates because "we have to do something". Sadly, children die everyday in this country as a result of neglect or senseless brutality. I truly wish we could stop it all.

    Reading the responses here and in other media sources tells me that most of us have passionate feelings about these issues, but we have few acceptable solutions to the great majority of people. (50 - 55% is NOT a great majority and poll results are often simply the result of how questions are manipulated -- and that's true from all sides.) Even when extensive study and experience lead us to what is most probably a true understanding of what constitutes the core issue in a problem, unless the conclusion supports our narrative, we tend to repudiate the conclusion of said study and experience. Heather Mac Donald, "The War on Cops", is for me a prime example of this.

    Most of us agree that guns and mental illness don't go together. Most of us agree that guns and domestic anger don't go together. Most of us would agree that guns and convicted felons don't go together. Our culture of political correctness prevents us from targeting specific groups in an attempt to deal with the problem. We are fast becoming a society of 'victims' whose 'rights' are to be protected at any cost. As a result, society at large --- and specific, innocent individuals --- pay the price for our pc induced fear.

    Gun control, immigration control, alcohol and drug control, ..... in a sense, it's all the same.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Lorie Hatcliff - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    You assume that a political position is the answer. Good luck with that. If you want to claim that the answer to a situation where someone pushed past 3 or 4 laws is another law, and then say with confidence the key is the 5th law - well, I think that is a tough sell. All the while ignoring a host of cultural and value factors that continue to be ignored. That is your right, but perhaps yours is not the solution you seem to claim. Since you seem to be awfully ready to blame people who disagree with your political position.
    We must acknowledge the part politics plays, reject that involvement, and move on. I say universal healthcare, including mental health coverage, is a really good start. I've never ONCE said that we need to ban guns. Not once. I own a few myself. We finally get a gun purchase restriction for people who rely on social security disability due to mental illness (and not only due to their mental illness, but due to their need for a conservator to take care of their social security money) and that's gone away with the stroke of a pen. THAT was a political move. And it was really, really stupid.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Andy Mistak's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Mark, that sounds incredibly political to me.
    On naznet, only liberals can be political. Conservatives are just using "common sense".
    Thanks Diane Likens - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing John F Martin - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Mistak View Post
    On naznet, only liberals can be political. Conservatives are just using "common sense".
    True, but not terribly helpful to the conversation.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Laughing David Graham - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Most of us agree that guns and mental illness don't go together. Most of us agree that guns and domestic anger don't go together. Most of us would agree that guns and convicted felons don't go together. Our culture of political correctness prevents us from targeting specific groups in an attempt to deal with the problem. We are fast becoming a society of 'victims' whose 'rights' are to be protected at any cost. As a result, society at large --- and specific, innocent individuals --- pay the price for our pc induced fear.
    Glenn, I more or less agree with the spirit of your post, but it goes off the rails by invoking 'political correctness', which is almost as damaging to your credibility as the Hitler argument would be.

    There is no easy answer to senseless violence. Virtually every person has the means of committing murder, whether by gun, knife or even by vehicle. Focusing on the means is little more than a half measure, but focusing on the reason that people commit murder - whether random or targeted - is really complicated, and doesn't lend itself to bumper sticker slogans.

    One thing I am sure of, ad hominem attacks aren't going to solve anything nor will they bring us together for any redemptive purpose. And let's be real...the political correctness argument is an ad hominem attack.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

  34. #34
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Mistak View Post
    On naznet, only liberals can be political. Conservatives are just using "common sense".
    Very odd statement considering the "political" charge here is being leveled at conservatives by what I am assuming from your statement is a liberal. Upside down world we live in at times.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  35. #35
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Uh, Billy, I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand how what I wrote was directed at anyone in particular. However, in my opinion, political correctness has had a major impact on our ability to address the specifics of the issues that divide our society today. The impact on college campuses alone is tremendous.

    Like I said, I hesitate to enter here.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Lorie Hatcliff - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Sometimes there is just nothing that can be said.

    Maybe, just maybe, someone could lock this thread and put us all out of our misery.

    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    With all due respect, Brother, it sounds like his mother sure identified it pretty easily.



    I sometimes wonder whether God wants to slap some sense into some of God's children. Almighty Grace? How about we use the brains God gave us? We've been given the ability to think critically, to analyze the world around us, to mitigate danger, and to address safety. Unfortunately, it would appear that God didn't give everyone the desire.
    It took the Point Arthur Massacre to do that for us in Australia and a Prime Minister with the courage to take on the Gun Lobby and with an ability to work with all of the State and Territory Governments to put together uniform legislation across the whole country. And since then, we've never had another gun related massacre since.

    Easier for us with a smaller population size and fewer guns in circulation. Easier for us politically too, with only 6 States and 2 Major Territories to deal with. It will be a lot more difficult for any type of Gun Law reform in the United States.

    And people out here can still purchase guns for appropriate reasons. Sure criminal history checks are carried out as well as checks on a mental health register, but most people would pass these checks. So we still have many guns in people's homes around the country, but they all have to be locked in gun cabinets and the licences of the gun holders are regularly reviewed. (Nearly every farmer I suspect would own at least one firearm.)

    Particular categories of fire arms are prohibited however, such as Automatic and Semi-Automatic rifles and (for most people) all concealable firearms such as revolvers or pistols. This lessens the risk of a legitimate gun owner going off the rails and killing a lot of people quickly.

    This whole issue of "gun management" will never be fully resolved in free societies. Even in my country, civil libertarians would like our gun laws reversed, while others would prefer us to have no guns at all. We'll never fully eliminate gun related violence but we can reduce the risk factors of gun massacres occurring to much lower levels. Steps such as criminal history checks and mental health assessment checks would I think be a sensible step in the right direction. (Though personally I would also ban automatic weapons, which I think would have a better effect in the long term.)
    Thanks Marg Shurtliff, Gina Stevenson, Aaron Stapleton - "thanks" for this post

  38. #38
    Senior Member George Wallace's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Graham View Post
    It took the Point Arthur Massacre to do that for us in Australia and a Prime Minister with the courage to take on the Gun Lobby and with an ability to work with all of the State and Territory Governments to put together uniform legislation across the whole country. And since then, we've never had another gun related massacre since.

    Easier for us with a smaller population size and fewer guns in circulation. Easier for us politically too, with only 6 States and 2 Major Territories to deal with. It will be a lot more difficult for any type of Gun Law reform in the United States.

    And people out here can still purchase guns for appropriate reasons. Sure criminal history checks are carried out as well as checks on a mental health register, but most people would pass these checks. So we still have many guns in people's homes around the country, but they all have to be locked in gun cabinets and the licences of the gun holders are regularly reviewed. (Nearly every farmer I suspect would own at least one firearm.)

    Particular categories of fire arms are prohibited however, such as Automatic and Semi-Automatic rifles and (for most people) all concealable firearms such as revolvers or pistols. This lessens the risk of a legitimate gun owner going off the rails and killing a lot of people quickly.

    This whole issue of "gun management" will never be fully resolved in free societies. Even in my country, civil libertarians would like our gun laws reversed, while others would prefer us to have no guns at all. We'll never fully eliminate gun related violence but we can reduce the risk factors of gun massacres occurring to much lower levels. Steps such as criminal history checks and mental health assessment checks would I think be a sensible step in the right direction. (Though personally I would also ban automatic weapons, which I think would have a better effect in the long term.)
    Comments?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo

    "A man of a truly catholic spirit has not now his religion to seek. He is fixed as the sun in his judgement concerning the main branches of Christian doctrine. "

    John Wesley


  39. #39
    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    George, you can't be serious? Where did you pick up this video?

    It is the most biased one sided video I've ever seen on the subject. Their biasedness towards the "Right" even surpasses the bias of ABC Radio National towards the "Left". The word "confiscate" used in the video did not reflect the initial voluntary nature of the Gun Buy Back scheme. People had 12 months to hand their semi-automatic weapons in and they would be compensated monetarily for doing so. After the 12 months was up, they were deemed to be held illegally by the owners and could be confiscated and the owners charged with holding illegal firearms.

    In addition, the video appeared to be quite "old" taken perhaps at the time when the "Gun Laws" were just being enacted. I've not seen anything more about this issue in the mainstream media in more recent times. If people still hold to these same views, then most Australians aren't listening to them, for it would seem plainly apparent that most Australians like our Gun laws. And when gun related atrocities happen in the USA, we're rather glad that we have them.

    The side that was presented was that of the Sporting Shooters Association (probably in New South Wales), and there views hardly reflect the values of the vast majority of Australians. In fact when they took up this issue of the Gun buy back at the Federal Election and subsequent State Elections, they managed only to win 2 upper house seats.

    Since then they have combined with the Fisher's Lobby to form the Shooters and Fisher's Party and hold 6 Upper house seats across three State Parliaments (ie. 6 out of 122 seats) and none in the other State and Territory Parliaments. At the last Federal Election, they didn't win a seat in either the Lower or upper houses and polled less than 1% of the national vote.

    The Shooter Association claims to have 175000 members across the country, but many believe this figure to be exaggerated.

    As for the statistics they quote, I notice with interest that they didn't speak about the overall homicide rates or the suicide rates, for these show a marked decrease since the Gun Buy Back Scheme was introduced. Homicide rates in Australia sit at 1.2 per 100000 people (15% of which resulted from firearms); (In the USA this rate is about 5 per 100000 with most being gun related). The suicide rate by gun in Australia have fallen by much the same rate as that of homicide. In America, some have suggested that the Suicide rate by guns is the biggest problem of gun ownership. In fact according to a study done by Harvard & T.H. Chan School of Public Health, the states with the highest Gun Ownership rates reported the highest number of suicides.

    As for the statistics regarding home invasion having "skyrocketed", the stat's don't actually bear this out. According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics there have been increases in unlawful entry by 1%; Motor Vehicle Theft 3% and Personal Assault theft by less than 1%.

    On the other hand Armed robbery has fallen by 9%.

    One other statistic that they don't really address, and that is with regard to Family Domestic Violence. This has sadly increased by 7% (in similar proportions so has sexual assault upon women, mostly in domestic situations.) If guns were more freely available, I wonder how many extra deaths we might also be experiencing both as a result of the perpetrators afflicting harm and those trying to protect themselves.

    So in the light of all this, I'd suggest that Gun regulation does save lives.
    Thanks Cam Pence, Diane Likens, Benjamin Hobbs - "thanks" for this post

  40. #40
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Just rolling around a thought in my head: it seems that the term "political" is kicked around as a way to discredit. When talking about an issue like this, it only seems natural that if you want to speak about options beyond just acknowledging that the world is fallen and people are sinful, eventually, you will come to the subject of gun laws, either that tightening them will beneficial or won't be. I can understand the damage that comes when we look at people's lives and they are essentially forfeit for the sake of toeing the line of a political ideology, with gun control or any other issue, but isn't it kind of impossible to talk about this issue and specifically laws without getting political? I mean just because something leads the conversation towards potential solutions that are political, does that need to automatically discredit what is being said? I think if we are going honestly talk about this beyond just copping out to the "heart issue" excuse, don't we all have to (on all sides of the issue) get a little political?
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Diane Likens, Benjamin Hobbs - "thanks" for this post

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