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Thread: Will we ever say enough's enough?

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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Angry Will we ever say enough's enough?

    So there's another shooting at an elementary school today. This time (going on as I type this) it's in San Bernardino.

    I can't stand it!
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    So there's another shooting at an elementary school today. This time (going on as I type this) it's in San Bernardino.

    I can't stand it!
    Given that there was no substantial change after Sandy Hook, I'd say that the 2nd amendment is a higher value than the lives of those who are gunned down in schools, churches and other public places. So the short answer, is 'no'.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Given that there was no substantial change after Sandy Hook, I'd say that the 2nd amendment is a higher value than the lives of those who are gunned down in schools, churches and other public places. So the short answer, is 'no'.
    I'm afraid you're right, Billy. It's horrendous. And stupid. And frustrating. So many people's "thoughts and prayers" will go out to families and the community. And nothing will change. And there will be another one. And another. And another. And people will continue to send "thoughts and prayers" and buy their guns and sell their guns (without background checks) and nothing will change.

    I'm tired. So tired.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    I'm afraid you're right, Billy. It's horrendous. And stupid. And frustrating. So many people's "thoughts and prayers" will go out to families and the community. And nothing will change. And there will be another one. And another. And another. And people will continue to send "thoughts and prayers" and buy their guns and sell their guns (without background checks) and nothing will change.

    I'm tired. So tired.
    Honestly, I have no idea what the solution is. Laws are an ineffective deterrent against misbehavior by criminals and those who are mentally ill. The most that the law can do in these cases is to guarantee punishment for those who misuse guns and those who are complicit in misuse.

    So even if all gun sales were banned tomorrow, access to guns would be virtually unchanged and the market for them would simply move underground; with a vast inventory and no shortage of people willing to buy/sell as an act of 'civil' disobedience.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting.
    A "typical" school shooting. God help us!

    Latest news is that an 8-year-old won't be going home tonight. Or ever.
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    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    Sorry Sarah, I'm not picking on you, but I've heard this said in defense of the right to bear arms that it can't be ignored.

    The big difference is that the average home needs kitchen utensils and food preparation and eating implements for people to go about their normal daily lives. The reality is that for the VAST MAJORITY of people (even in America) they don't need a gun to go about their daily lives.

    From my many discussions here on Naznet, I have noticed that for many Americans there is a high emphasis upon keeping the letter of the law even when it seems to many "outsiders" it is rediculous to do so. There seems to be little thought given to whether they were ever good laws, or whether they are now "out of date" or for what the purpose the original laws were meant to serve. The law is the law, therefore, if the first amendment gives me the right to bear arms then I can own and carry whatever weapon that I think I need for what ever reason I think appropriate (apparently) in accordance with the law. And if I think that a "Brown Bess" Musket or a "Charleville" Musket, or an "American Long Rifle" as envisaged by the founding fathers won't cut it for my purposes, then, hey, what the heck, I'll get me an M16 or an ACR or an AK-5, or something even heavier. (The bigger the better right?)

    But why stop there, how about a 105 mm cannon in the Garage, a heavy machine gun in the living room or a Phalynx Gun on the roof to deter intruders? No one would be game enough to touch you then..... or would they? Or would the weapons themselves make you a target for those who would want to get their hands on them? Now I'd hope there would be laws to prevent those horrible weapons to be owned by average citizens... but I'm trying to make a point that weapons on their own will not protect people. Yet, if there are laws that prohibit people from owning the horrible weapons of mass destruction that I've suggested above (and I hope that there are) then would such prohibitions be in opposition to the 1st Amendment?

    As an Aussie looking in it all seems madness!

    Sure bad things will and do happen to innocent people. Even in my country where guns are harder to obtain, some guns still hit the streets and are used in crime. But we don't have either the level of gun related violence or the higher levels of gun related accidents or anywhere near the level of spontaneous family conflict violence resulting from the use of guns either.

    Yes, occasionally, we'll have a news story of some "druggie" trying to hold up a Petrol Station attendant with a knife, but often these are unsuccessful since the shop keepers will fight back with cricket or baseball bats and chase the offenders away. Sometimes, people die in such incidents, and yet, our overall level of deaths proportional to our population size when compared to the US is still far less. I'd suggest that guns only makes people bolder, and if you are a "nutter" with a gun, then you will do a lot more damage more quickly then if you didn't have one. This would apply too to people who momentarily lose their reason and give into their fears, prejudices or obsessions.

    Trust me, if the Australian experience of a society with fewer guns is anything to go by, you guys would be a lot better with off without them.

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    This is what I've been hearing/reading. This was domestic violence that happened at a school.

    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts. Especially considering that murder entered our world just one generation after creation. There is only One who can help us, there is no other cure.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts.
    No amount of laws will stop people from manufacturing, selling, and using illicit drugs. Yet we have very stringent drug laws.

    All I know is that what we're doing isn't working. Perhaps it's time to try something else.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    This is what I've been hearing/reading. This was domestic violence that happened at a school.

    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts. Especially considering that murder entered our world just one generation after creation. There is only One who can help us, there is no other cure.
    We need to remember that the Sandy Hook School shootings in Newtown, CT also began as a domestic violence incident when the shooter shot and killed his mother first before taking his weapons and malice to the school. As sad and heartbreaking as the school massacre was, that one woman is the forgotten victim in that sad story.
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    My argument stands on its own merit. Please remember several facts: I live where guns are a necessity to protect life against predatory four footed wildlife. Banning guns won't make you safer from bad guys who get them illegally, but would make me in more danger. Also bear in mind I agree we need some new laws. I have a mentally ill felon for a son, who should never get a gun. Yet his last bout in prison was for gun possession. He got it illegally and got his hunting license legally. I agree we need to toughen up on background checks.

    BUT those won't help really in the long run. What WILL help more is to provide adequate beds for the mentally ill AND use and increase laws for involuntary confinement. We need to get quite serious as a culture when it comes to domestic violence and enforcement of orders of protection. We need to really beef up sentences for those using guns in a crime. Seems so unfair my son could hurt someone with a gun he obtained illegally while underage and an escapee from a facility, then serve only 15 years, then get caught with a gun again and serve 60 DAYS. Clearly he is unstable and unable to make right choices. I hate, as his mom, to say it, but he needs permanent commitment in a truly secure facility. Don't tell me again he was "stable on his meds when we released him." DUH!

    Rather than banning guns for those of us who depend on them for safety and not from other people, the Sandy Hook shooter had long exhibited behavior requiring permanent commitment.

    So I agree we need to grow a spine to stop this madness. But we need to get to the root causes, which seldom are that guns are obtainable legally and too easily. (Note I DO agree a felon or a person who has ever been diagnosed mentally ill should not get them.) I also recognize however that it is often illegally obtained guns that are used to kill.

    So I agree with tightening background checks but don't see it as the sole answer.

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    Senior Member Wilson Deaton's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    No amount of laws will stop people from manufacturing, selling, and using illicit drugs. Yet we have very stringent drug laws.

    All I know is that what we're doing isn't working. Perhaps it's time to try something else.
    Out of the same mouths, I sometimes hear:
    "We need laws against abortion."
    "We need laws supporting one man/one woman marriages."
    "Guns? Laws won't help."

    I wish I could understand that logic.

    Wilson
    "But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)

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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    This is what I've been hearing/reading. This was domestic violence that happened at a school.

    No amount of laws will help end the violence that comes from darkened human hearts. Especially considering that murder entered our world just one generation after creation. There is only One who can help us, there is no other cure.
    Translation: we shouldn't do anything which might inconvenience myself or those of similar opinions because this problem isn't personal.

    You should know by now, or at least be informed at this moment, that blaming any loss of human life or health on "sin" without any appeal or acknowledgement to readily available prophylactic means is cold-hearted, and selfish.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    So I agree with tightening background checks but don't see it as the sole answer.
    I am in agreement with you -- it's most certainly NOT the sole answer. We don't fund mental health services. In fact, some of us are wanting to strip coverage for mental health services from health insurance policies. Let's CHANGE THAT. Some of us recently overturned a ban on gun purchases by people who are receiving social security disability benefits for mental health issues. Let's CHANGE THAT. Tell me how -- I beg you. I do my best to change those things (at the ballot box). How about you?

    My schizophrenic neighbor has three handguns and a shot gun that I know of. He acquired every one of them legally. In fact, rumor has it he has a concealed carry permit. THAT'S what happens when the NRA has a bigger voice in DC than I do.

    I'm trying so hard to keep my post from being "political". This particular topic makes that difficult if not downright impossible, though.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    My argument stands on its own merit. Please remember several facts: I live where guns are a necessity to protect life against predatory four footed wildlife. Banning guns won't make you safer from bad guys who get them illegally, but would make me in more danger. Also bear in mind I agree we need some new laws. I have a mentally ill felon for a son, who should never get a gun. Yet his last bout in prison was for gun possession. He got it illegally and got his hunting license legally. I agree we need to toughen up on background checks.

    BUT those won't help really in the long run. What WILL help more is to provide adequate beds for the mentally ill AND use and increase laws for involuntary confinement. We need to get quite serious as a culture when it comes to domestic violence and enforcement of orders of protection. We need to really beef up sentences for those using guns in a crime. Seems so unfair my son could hurt someone with a gun he obtained illegally while underage and an escapee from a facility, then serve only 15 years, then get caught with a gun again and serve 60 DAYS. Clearly he is unstable and unable to make right choices. I hate, as his mom, to say it, but he needs permanent commitment in a truly secure facility. Don't tell me again he was "stable on his meds when we released him." DUH!

    Rather than banning guns for those of us who depend on them for safety and not from other people, the Sandy Hook shooter had long exhibited behavior requiring permanent commitment.

    So I agree we need to grow a spine to stop this madness. But we need to get to the root causes, which seldom are that guns are obtainable legally and too easily. (Note I DO agree a felon or a person who has ever been diagnosed mentally ill should not get them.) I also recognize however that it is often illegally obtained guns that are used to kill.

    So I agree with tightening background checks but don't see it as the sole answer.
    Sarah,
    Thank you for your candor. I cannot imagine the heartache that you must feel as a mother and the burden this has heaped on your family, both trying to be supportive of your son and at the same time recognize the potential threat that exists. You live in a very difficult situation.

    I think what tends to happen is we only apply "one size fits all" remedies to difficult matters. The 2nd Amendment is viewed, at least by some, as a one size fits all document, which they argue should not be broken down for other situations. Until a majority can agree that some reasonable steps may be applicable, we will ever say enough is enough.

    Sarah, you have my deep appreciation for the struggle you and your family face on a personal level.

    dave t
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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I think tightening background checks will certainly help or at least be a good start. That being said, I don't think it will happen. I don't know that there is a simple solution. I think writing this off as a sin problem is just a lazy tactic to serve the political aspects of this issue. Lots of things are sin problems and are still tightly control and sometimes banned and are fully supported by the same people that want to use the same excuse to do nothing about gun laws. I do know this: as a gun owner, I feel a responsibility to do something as opposed to nothing but shaking my head, sending prayers, and talking about how sinful people can be.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    No amount of laws will stop people from manufacturing, selling, and using illicit drugs. Yet we have very stringent drug laws.

    All I know is that what we're doing isn't working. Perhaps it's time to try something else.
    We have very stringent drug laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least a significant part of the problem. We also have very stringent gun laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least plays a role in the problem. I love consistency.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I was just looking at this Wikipeda article on federal gun laws in the United States. There are a lot of them. The article also quotes the late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia who wrote:
    Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
    I'm impressed that this man, known as a firm Originalist understood the Second Amendment to be limited in it's reach and his support of any law that keeps guns out of the hands of people who intend to use them to do harm (or who might be prone to do harm) to other people.

    At the same time, I understand that there are something like 200,000,000 guns in this country. If someone could wave a magic wand and make them all disappear (with the exception of those required by military and law enforcement) I *think* I'd favor it even though I know there are many reasonable exceptions.

    However, of course, there is no magic wand. The gun genie is out of the bottle so we have to find ways to minimize the tragic consequences of living in a country with a gun culture that dates to our nation's founding.

    If I had an answer to this I would offer it. At this point, in the most recent shooting (as well as most others) a bunch of gun laws were broken leading up to the shooting so I struggle with "more gun laws" being a legitimate answer - especially in light of the number of guns already out there.

    Speaking as a follower of Jesus, I do think we Christians are a bit too quick to dismiss the heart issue here. If God's people immediately set aside the core need of humanity, then who is there left to be salt and light? I think that should be our first response and any others be grudgingly accepted while we stubbornly insist we know the "real" Answer.

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    Senior Member Jim Franklin's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Each state used to have what were called in the vernacular "insane asylums," I know because a relational connection spent their last years of life in one and died there, but then there were those that considered them discriminatory so they were done away with. For some permanent incarceration is the solution. But that boxes us into a case by case determination. As I read this morning's accounts after further investigation, as the victims mother stated that "he was a ticking time bomb" and those are not always easy to identify. Picking a hundred people at random and try to determine how many of those are "ticking time bombs" would be discriminatory. We just have to plea for God's mercy and grace to solve these issues. One of several reasons I take the stress of this type of news to the throne of God's grace. Praying, Diane, that your sense of frustration will be met by God's almighty Grace.

    Somehow a previous attempt to edit this post got missed. My first year of teaching was a class of similar youngsters, so I have personal understanding of the victims care and love for her class.
    Last edited by Jim Franklin; April 11th, 2017 at 06:17 PM.
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    Each state used to have what were called in the vernacular "insane asylums," I know because a relational connection spent their last years of life in one and died there, but then there were those that considered them discriminatory so they were done away with. For some permanent incarceration is the solution. But that boxes us into a case by case determination. As I read this morning's accounts after further investigation, as the victims mother stated that "he was a ticking time bomb" and those are not always easy to identify. Picking a hundred people at random and try to determine how many of those are "ticking time bombs" would be discriminatory. We just have to plea for God's mercy and grace to solve these issues. One of several reasons I take the stress of this type of news to the throne of God's grace. Praying, Diane, that your sense of frustration will be met by God's almighty Grace.
    I can just picture it... We pray to God on an issue like this, and his answer is, "What have *you* done about it?"
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  21. #21
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    We have very stringent drug laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least a significant part of the problem. We also have very stringent gun laws, which might be driving the problem, or at least plays a role in the problem. I love consistency.
    The federal government has stringent drug laws. State governments make up their own gun laws. Certainly could be part of the problem.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    The federal government has stringent drug laws. State governments make up their own gun laws. Certainly could be part of the problem.
    Diane, this is just mistaken. The federal government has gun laws and drug laws. The state also has gun laws and drug laws. Municipalities have both as well.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Franklin View Post
    Each As I read this morning's accounts after further investigation, as the victims mother stated that "he was a ticking time bomb" and those are not always easy to identify. .
    With all due respect, Brother, it sounds like his mother sure identified it pretty easily.

    Picking a hundred people at random and try to determine how many of those are "ticking time bombs" would be discriminatory. We just have to plea for God's mercy and grace to solve these issues. One of several reasons I take the stress of this type of news to the throne of God's grace. Praying, Diane, that your sense of frustration will be met by God's almighty Grace.
    I sometimes wonder whether God wants to slap some sense into some of God's children. Almighty Grace? How about we use the brains God gave us? We've been given the ability to think critically, to analyze the world around us, to mitigate danger, and to address safety. Unfortunately, it would appear that God didn't give everyone the desire.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Mark Bolerjack's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Just saw it wasn't exactly a typical school shooting. News just said murder suicide as ongoing domestic violence.

    Might be the root to attack in this case is domestic violence rather than gun control. In that sort of situation the killer might have just used a steak knife if guns were unavailable. Or bare hands.
    Absolutely right, Sarah. But you know that the left is going to blame it on gun control and the second amendment.
    Godspeed.

    Mark B








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  25. #25
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolerjack View Post
    Absolutely right, Sarah. But you know that the left is going to blame it on gun control and the second amendment.
    Mark, that sounds incredibly political to me.

    That said, tell me where YOU place the blame, how YOU recommend it be fixed, and how many dead school children YOU are willing to accept. Do you have grandchildren? If so, how many of them are YOU going to sacrifice before you realize that a solution is needed?

    This tragedy didn't affect YOU personally, so you're quick to belittle those who are absolutely heart-sick over it. If gun control ISN'T the solution, what IS? What we're doing's not working. We need to try something different. What's YOUR idea? If you DON'T have an idea, please just sit down, read another Bible verse to justify basic heartlessness, and go on about your life.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Mark, that sounds incredibly political to me.

    That said, tell me where YOU place the blame, how YOU recommend it be fixed, and how many dead school children YOU are willing to accept. Do you have grandchildren? If so, how many of them are YOU going to sacrifice before you realize that a solution is needed?

    This tragedy didn't affect YOU personally, so you're quick to belittle those who are absolutely heart-sick over it. If gun control ISN'T the solution, what IS? What we're doing's not working. We need to try something different. What's YOUR idea? If you DON'T have an idea, please just sit down, read another Bible verse to justify basic heartlessness, and go on about your life.
    Sorry, but this post is not fair, and moves the agenda not one inch. Mark is NOT responsible for what happened. You can capitalize all the YOUS you want, and it will not change this fact. I could ask YOU the exact same thing, for YOU are just as responsible as him, or me. He is not willing to accept any dead children, and neither are you. You just demonized someone for disagreeing with you, and that is out of bounds, and rather sad. We have dead school children in Sweden, in Scotland, and a host of other places where gun laws are different than here. I would even bet Mark has a host of ideas to try, and many of them have nothing to do with gun laws. But then again, maybe the point here is to exploit a sad event to push a political agenda. I would rather not step over the dead that quickly.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    But then again, maybe the point here is to exploit a sad event to push a political agenda. I would rather not step over the dead that quickly.
    Just pushing the bodies into a hole and carrying on the status quo is quite possibly the longest-running political agenda there is.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Just pushing the bodies into a hole and carrying on the status quo is quite possibly the longest-running political agenda there is.
    You assume that a political position is the answer. Good luck with that. If you want to claim that the answer to a situation where someone pushed past 3 or 4 laws is another law, and then say with confidence the key is the 5th law - well, I think that is a tough sell. All the while ignoring a host of cultural and value factors that continue to be ignored. That is your right, but perhaps yours is not the solution you seem to claim. Since you seem to be awfully ready to blame people who disagree with your political position.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
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    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I hesitate to enter here; we've been here so many times before. No one in their right mind ever takes the death of a child lightly. It evokes a grief I can only imagine .... and hope to never experience. I also grieve for the woman who was killed. Two of the greatest mass killings of children in the US were carried out by bombings --- the bombing of OKC (15) and the bombing of Bath, MI.(38) Some of us believe that the most prolific mass murderer of children was a man named Kermit Gosnell. Most of his killings were done under the protection of law.

    Part of the problem is that, for many, the only acceptable solutions are driven by people who are on the far outside fringes. Side A says that there are no legal limits to the 2nd amendment. Side B says all guns should be banned. Most of us fall somewhere in between those extremes. We recognize that most gun owners are reasonable, law abiding, citizens who accept the responsibility of gun ownership seriously. The vast majority of gun owners will live through their entire lives without ever killing or even injuring another person with a firearm. They are your neighbors, friends, and even family members. When a senseless killing such as this occupies public attention, then the call for stringent gun control escalates because "we have to do something". Sadly, children die everyday in this country as a result of neglect or senseless brutality. I truly wish we could stop it all.

    Reading the responses here and in other media sources tells me that most of us have passionate feelings about these issues, but we have few acceptable solutions to the great majority of people. (50 - 55% is NOT a great majority and poll results are often simply the result of how questions are manipulated -- and that's true from all sides.) Even when extensive study and experience lead us to what is most probably a true understanding of what constitutes the core issue in a problem, unless the conclusion supports our narrative, we tend to repudiate the conclusion of said study and experience. Heather Mac Donald, "The War on Cops", is for me a prime example of this.

    Most of us agree that guns and mental illness don't go together. Most of us agree that guns and domestic anger don't go together. Most of us would agree that guns and convicted felons don't go together. Our culture of political correctness prevents us from targeting specific groups in an attempt to deal with the problem. We are fast becoming a society of 'victims' whose 'rights' are to be protected at any cost. As a result, society at large --- and specific, innocent individuals --- pay the price for our pc induced fear.

    Gun control, immigration control, alcohol and drug control, ..... in a sense, it's all the same.
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    You assume that a political position is the answer. Good luck with that. If you want to claim that the answer to a situation where someone pushed past 3 or 4 laws is another law, and then say with confidence the key is the 5th law - well, I think that is a tough sell. All the while ignoring a host of cultural and value factors that continue to be ignored. That is your right, but perhaps yours is not the solution you seem to claim. Since you seem to be awfully ready to blame people who disagree with your political position.
    We must acknowledge the part politics plays, reject that involvement, and move on. I say universal healthcare, including mental health coverage, is a really good start. I've never ONCE said that we need to ban guns. Not once. I own a few myself. We finally get a gun purchase restriction for people who rely on social security disability due to mental illness (and not only due to their mental illness, but due to their need for a conservator to take care of their social security money) and that's gone away with the stroke of a pen. THAT was a political move. And it was really, really stupid.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Senior Member Andy Mistak's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Mark, that sounds incredibly political to me.
    On naznet, only liberals can be political. Conservatives are just using "common sense".
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Mistak View Post
    On naznet, only liberals can be political. Conservatives are just using "common sense".
    True, but not terribly helpful to the conversation.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Most of us agree that guns and mental illness don't go together. Most of us agree that guns and domestic anger don't go together. Most of us would agree that guns and convicted felons don't go together. Our culture of political correctness prevents us from targeting specific groups in an attempt to deal with the problem. We are fast becoming a society of 'victims' whose 'rights' are to be protected at any cost. As a result, society at large --- and specific, innocent individuals --- pay the price for our pc induced fear.
    Glenn, I more or less agree with the spirit of your post, but it goes off the rails by invoking 'political correctness', which is almost as damaging to your credibility as the Hitler argument would be.

    There is no easy answer to senseless violence. Virtually every person has the means of committing murder, whether by gun, knife or even by vehicle. Focusing on the means is little more than a half measure, but focusing on the reason that people commit murder - whether random or targeted - is really complicated, and doesn't lend itself to bumper sticker slogans.

    One thing I am sure of, ad hominem attacks aren't going to solve anything nor will they bring us together for any redemptive purpose. And let's be real...the political correctness argument is an ad hominem attack.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Mistak View Post
    On naznet, only liberals can be political. Conservatives are just using "common sense".
    Very odd statement considering the "political" charge here is being leveled at conservatives by what I am assuming from your statement is a liberal. Upside down world we live in at times.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  35. #35
    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Uh, Billy, I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand how what I wrote was directed at anyone in particular. However, in my opinion, political correctness has had a major impact on our ability to address the specifics of the issues that divide our society today. The impact on college campuses alone is tremendous.

    Like I said, I hesitate to enter here.
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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Sometimes there is just nothing that can be said.

    Maybe, just maybe, someone could lock this thread and put us all out of our misery.

    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    With all due respect, Brother, it sounds like his mother sure identified it pretty easily.



    I sometimes wonder whether God wants to slap some sense into some of God's children. Almighty Grace? How about we use the brains God gave us? We've been given the ability to think critically, to analyze the world around us, to mitigate danger, and to address safety. Unfortunately, it would appear that God didn't give everyone the desire.
    It took the Point Arthur Massacre to do that for us in Australia and a Prime Minister with the courage to take on the Gun Lobby and with an ability to work with all of the State and Territory Governments to put together uniform legislation across the whole country. And since then, we've never had another gun related massacre since.

    Easier for us with a smaller population size and fewer guns in circulation. Easier for us politically too, with only 6 States and 2 Major Territories to deal with. It will be a lot more difficult for any type of Gun Law reform in the United States.

    And people out here can still purchase guns for appropriate reasons. Sure criminal history checks are carried out as well as checks on a mental health register, but most people would pass these checks. So we still have many guns in people's homes around the country, but they all have to be locked in gun cabinets and the licences of the gun holders are regularly reviewed. (Nearly every farmer I suspect would own at least one firearm.)

    Particular categories of fire arms are prohibited however, such as Automatic and Semi-Automatic rifles and (for most people) all concealable firearms such as revolvers or pistols. This lessens the risk of a legitimate gun owner going off the rails and killing a lot of people quickly.

    This whole issue of "gun management" will never be fully resolved in free societies. Even in my country, civil libertarians would like our gun laws reversed, while others would prefer us to have no guns at all. We'll never fully eliminate gun related violence but we can reduce the risk factors of gun massacres occurring to much lower levels. Steps such as criminal history checks and mental health assessment checks would I think be a sensible step in the right direction. (Though personally I would also ban automatic weapons, which I think would have a better effect in the long term.)
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  38. #38
    Senior Member George Wallace's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Graham View Post
    It took the Point Arthur Massacre to do that for us in Australia and a Prime Minister with the courage to take on the Gun Lobby and with an ability to work with all of the State and Territory Governments to put together uniform legislation across the whole country. And since then, we've never had another gun related massacre since.

    Easier for us with a smaller population size and fewer guns in circulation. Easier for us politically too, with only 6 States and 2 Major Territories to deal with. It will be a lot more difficult for any type of Gun Law reform in the United States.

    And people out here can still purchase guns for appropriate reasons. Sure criminal history checks are carried out as well as checks on a mental health register, but most people would pass these checks. So we still have many guns in people's homes around the country, but they all have to be locked in gun cabinets and the licences of the gun holders are regularly reviewed. (Nearly every farmer I suspect would own at least one firearm.)

    Particular categories of fire arms are prohibited however, such as Automatic and Semi-Automatic rifles and (for most people) all concealable firearms such as revolvers or pistols. This lessens the risk of a legitimate gun owner going off the rails and killing a lot of people quickly.

    This whole issue of "gun management" will never be fully resolved in free societies. Even in my country, civil libertarians would like our gun laws reversed, while others would prefer us to have no guns at all. We'll never fully eliminate gun related violence but we can reduce the risk factors of gun massacres occurring to much lower levels. Steps such as criminal history checks and mental health assessment checks would I think be a sensible step in the right direction. (Though personally I would also ban automatic weapons, which I think would have a better effect in the long term.)
    Comments?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo

    "A man of a truly catholic spirit has not now his religion to seek. He is fixed as the sun in his judgement concerning the main branches of Christian doctrine. "

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  39. #39
    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    George, you can't be serious? Where did you pick up this video?

    It is the most biased one sided video I've ever seen on the subject. Their biasedness towards the "Right" even surpasses the bias of ABC Radio National towards the "Left". The word "confiscate" used in the video did not reflect the initial voluntary nature of the Gun Buy Back scheme. People had 12 months to hand their semi-automatic weapons in and they would be compensated monetarily for doing so. After the 12 months was up, they were deemed to be held illegally by the owners and could be confiscated and the owners charged with holding illegal firearms.

    In addition, the video appeared to be quite "old" taken perhaps at the time when the "Gun Laws" were just being enacted. I've not seen anything more about this issue in the mainstream media in more recent times. If people still hold to these same views, then most Australians aren't listening to them, for it would seem plainly apparent that most Australians like our Gun laws. And when gun related atrocities happen in the USA, we're rather glad that we have them.

    The side that was presented was that of the Sporting Shooters Association (probably in New South Wales), and there views hardly reflect the values of the vast majority of Australians. In fact when they took up this issue of the Gun buy back at the Federal Election and subsequent State Elections, they managed only to win 2 upper house seats.

    Since then they have combined with the Fisher's Lobby to form the Shooters and Fisher's Party and hold 6 Upper house seats across three State Parliaments (ie. 6 out of 122 seats) and none in the other State and Territory Parliaments. At the last Federal Election, they didn't win a seat in either the Lower or upper houses and polled less than 1% of the national vote.

    The Shooter Association claims to have 175000 members across the country, but many believe this figure to be exaggerated.

    As for the statistics they quote, I notice with interest that they didn't speak about the overall homicide rates or the suicide rates, for these show a marked decrease since the Gun Buy Back Scheme was introduced. Homicide rates in Australia sit at 1.2 per 100000 people (15% of which resulted from firearms); (In the USA this rate is about 5 per 100000 with most being gun related). The suicide rate by gun in Australia have fallen by much the same rate as that of homicide. In America, some have suggested that the Suicide rate by guns is the biggest problem of gun ownership. In fact according to a study done by Harvard & T.H. Chan School of Public Health, the states with the highest Gun Ownership rates reported the highest number of suicides.

    As for the statistics regarding home invasion having "skyrocketed", the stat's don't actually bear this out. According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics there have been increases in unlawful entry by 1%; Motor Vehicle Theft 3% and Personal Assault theft by less than 1%.

    On the other hand Armed robbery has fallen by 9%.

    One other statistic that they don't really address, and that is with regard to Family Domestic Violence. This has sadly increased by 7% (in similar proportions so has sexual assault upon women, mostly in domestic situations.) If guns were more freely available, I wonder how many extra deaths we might also be experiencing both as a result of the perpetrators afflicting harm and those trying to protect themselves.

    So in the light of all this, I'd suggest that Gun regulation does save lives.
    Thanks Cam Pence, Diane Likens, Benjamin Hobbs - "thanks" for this post

  40. #40
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Just rolling around a thought in my head: it seems that the term "political" is kicked around as a way to discredit. When talking about an issue like this, it only seems natural that if you want to speak about options beyond just acknowledging that the world is fallen and people are sinful, eventually, you will come to the subject of gun laws, either that tightening them will beneficial or won't be. I can understand the damage that comes when we look at people's lives and they are essentially forfeit for the sake of toeing the line of a political ideology, with gun control or any other issue, but isn't it kind of impossible to talk about this issue and specifically laws without getting political? I mean just because something leads the conversation towards potential solutions that are political, does that need to automatically discredit what is being said? I think if we are going honestly talk about this beyond just copping out to the "heart issue" excuse, don't we all have to (on all sides of the issue) get a little political?
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    So there's another shooting at an elementary school today. This time (going on as I type this) it's in San Bernardino.

    I can't stand it!
    When Jesus spoke to His disciples about His impending departure He asked them if they lacked anything while He was with them? They stated no. I assume that also included protection. Jesus told them if they didn't have a sword get one and one was enough. So Jesus wasn't starting a army. The weapon then is clearly implied to me for self defense not rebellion. Luke 22:35-38

    I am not a fan of firearms. Accidents happen even among law abiding citizens.

    Never the less thats not the heart of the problem. The fault lies in the hearts and minds of people who use weapons to murder. Enough will be enough one day as Jesus will send out His angels to pull up the weeds and those who sow the weeds. A loving God is very patient. He made Israel wait 400 years in Egypt until the sins of the people living in the land God promised to Abraham and his offspring reached fullness. How much more then will God wait before the whole world is so judged? No one knows that day or hour not even the Son but a appointed time has been set.
    "The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?"
    (Psalms 27:1)
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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Wise View Post

    Never the less thats not the heart of the problem. The fault lies in the hearts and minds of people who use weapons to murder. Enough will be enough one day as Jesus will send out His angels to pull up the weeds and those who sow the weeds. A loving God is very patient. He made Israel wait 400 years in Egypt until the sins of the people living in the land God promised to Abraham and his offspring reached fullness. How much more then will God wait before the whole world is so judged? No one knows that day or hour not even the Son but a appointed time has been set.
    Agreed.....people are sinful and do heinous stuff. One day Jesus is going to come back and put things right. I assume all of us Christians are praying. What ELSE should be done to curb this sort of thing happening? I'm fine with people saying they don't think making it a little harder (in the USA, I'll say "less easy") for people to get guns will make a difference, but we HAVE to stop it with the churchy depraved "dark hearts of men" excuse to not looking at practical ways to keep kids from getting shot.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

  43. #43
    Senior Member John F Martin's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    My argument stands on its own merit. Please remember several facts: I live where guns are a necessity to protect life against predatory four footed wildlife. Banning guns won't make you safer from bad guys who get them illegally, but would make me in more danger. Also bear in mind I agree we need some new laws. I have a mentally ill felon for a son, who should never get a gun. Yet his last bout in prison was for gun possession. He got it illegally and got his hunting license legally. I agree we need to toughen up on background checks.

    BUT those won't help really in the long run. What WILL help more is to provide adequate beds for the mentally ill AND use and increase laws for involuntary confinement. We need to get quite serious as a culture when it comes to domestic violence and enforcement of orders of protection. We need to really beef up sentences for those using guns in a crime. Seems so unfair my son could hurt someone with a gun he obtained illegally while underage and an escapee from a facility, then serve only 15 years, then get caught with a gun again and serve 60 DAYS. Clearly he is unstable and unable to make right choices. I hate, as his mom, to say it, but he needs permanent commitment in a truly secure facility. Don't tell me again he was "stable on his meds when we released him." DUH!

    Rather than banning guns for those of us who depend on them for safety and not from other people, the Sandy Hook shooter had long exhibited behavior requiring permanent commitment.

    So I agree we need to grow a spine to stop this madness. But we need to get to the root causes, which seldom are that guns are obtainable legally and too easily. (Note I DO agree a felon or a person who has ever been diagnosed mentally ill should not get them.) I also recognize however that it is often illegally obtained guns that are used to kill.

    So I agree with tightening background checks but don't see it as the sole answer.
    I agree, Sarah. The nation has become enamored with the Second Amendment, leading to a hyper-sensitivity about it. The NRA has poured millions into creating impressions intolerant of any gun legislation as being anti- Second Amendment. Seeing ANY gun legislation as anti- Second Amendment is harmful to us all. Right to bear arms had to do with preserving the right of the citizenry to protect itself from an overbearing, oppressive government. It's doubtful the framers of the Constitution would stand for today's popular interpretation, in which it's thought we have to let guns into the hands of every idiot who wants to obtain them. Presidents Reagan and others oversaw tightened regulations, and we need some of that again! My Nonprofit Marketing students are reading this week about Social Marketing (marketing to effect behavioral change or shifts in public policy). It's hard to get these points across to influence public attitudes until the mental health advocates have as many resources to spend on advertising as the NRA has!
    John Martin, PhD(c)
    Grateful Believer in Jesus Christ
    Thanks Diane Likens, David Graham, Aaron Stapleton - "thanks" for this post

  44. #44
    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by John F Martin View Post
    It's hard to get these points across to influence public attitudes until the mental health advocates have as many resources to spend on advertising as the NRA has!
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Spot on, my Brother. Spot ON!
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Site Manager G R 'Scott' Cundiff's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I don't know much about the ins and outs of the NRA and the mentally ill but according to this from their website it appears that they support reasonable restrictions... https://www.nraila.org/articles/2013...h-and-firearms

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Uh, Billy, I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand how what I wrote was directed at anyone in particular. However, in my opinion, political correctness has had a major impact on our ability to address the specifics of the issues that divide our society today. The impact on college campuses alone is tremendous.
    The use of 'political correctness' as a means of dismissing the opinions of others as worthless does not promote understanding.

    If your previous post was a dozen eggs, 11 were good and 1 was rotten. I suppose we can celebrate the 11.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Wise View Post
    When Jesus spoke to His disciples about His impending departure He asked them if they lacked anything while He was with them? They stated no. I assume that also included protection. Jesus told them if they didn't have a sword get one and one was enough. So Jesus wasn't starting a army. The weapon then is clearly implied to me for self defense not rebellion. Luke 22:35-38

    I am not a fan of firearms. Accidents happen even among law abiding citizens.

    Never the less thats not the heart of the problem. The fault lies in the hearts and minds of people who use weapons to murder. Enough will be enough one day as Jesus will send out His angels to pull up the weeds and those who sow the weeds. A loving God is very patient. He made Israel wait 400 years in Egypt until the sins of the people living in the land God promised to Abraham and his offspring reached fullness. How much more then will God wait before the whole world is so judged? No one knows that day or hour not even the Son but a appointed time has been set.
    Would you say the same about opposing abortion and the 'gay agenda'?? Yeah, I didn't think so.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    The use of 'political correctness' as a means of dismissing the opinions of others as worthless does not promote understanding.
    IMHO, One person's 'political correctness' is another's 'simple human decency'.
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    What would be considered mental illness? Is it a person on anti-depressants? That would eliminate 1/6 of Americans. What about the mentally ill man who is not under a physician’s care? He's not on any red flag list when a background check is done.

    How do you go about this?
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    Senior Member David Troxler's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    What would be considered mental illness? Is it a person on anti-depressants? That would eliminate 1/6 of Americans. What about the mentally ill man who is not under a physician’s care? He's not on any red flag list when a background check is done.

    How do you go about this?
    Great question Lorie.
    And it gets us the same answers when we ask what kind of guns are sufficient for any person to own? Semi-automatic weapons, etc.

    Both are questions of degrees. An undiagnosed or untreated mentally ill person may indeed slip through the cracks of a background check.
    But, with automobiles, there are degrees of licenses. One for passenger cars, another for CDL's or buses, another for motorcycles, etc. Perhaps our licensing and background checks might do better on a scale of what types of guns are to be used, with more stringent levels of proficiency demonstrated the more powerful the piece is.
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    As a responsible gun owner and user, I see no need at all for anyone but military and law enforcement to own assault weapons.

    And yes, those on antidepressants for mental illness (aka depression) should not own weapons. Of course, those meds are used also for arthritis, etc, and not mental illness. But diagnosed mental illness, like previous felony, should mean no legal gun ownership. And family members "loaning" or purchasing guns for them should be prosecuted.

    But all that said, people like my son WILL fall through cracks on all attempts to reduce or ban weapons. He will get them illegally.

    With serious mental illness and repeat felonies using guns, like him, we need long term commitment. Whether family (like the Sandy Hook shooter's mom) likes it or not.

    But if my son is out to kill, and guns not available, he WILL use a car or a knife or a rock or a bomb or whatever he can come up with. Even in a gunless world we would have murder and mass murder.
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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Troxler View Post
    Great question Lorie.
    And it gets us the same answers when we ask what kind of guns are sufficient for any person to own? Semi-automatic weapons, etc.

    Both are questions of degrees. An undiagnosed or untreated mentally ill person may indeed slip through the cracks of a background check.
    But, with automobiles, there are degrees of licenses. One for passenger cars, another for CDL's or buses, another for motorcycles, etc. Perhaps our licensing and background checks might do better on a scale of what types of guns are to be used, with more stringent levels of proficiency demonstrated the more powerful the piece is.
    These are pretty much my thoughts as well. I will add I wouldn't be opposed to requiring gun safety courses for gun potential gun owners which, in addition to teaching people proper gun safety/handling/storage can also serve in catching "red flags" for possible mental illness. Also on a personal note, as someone who taken such a course and found it very helpful not just for safety but also for more practical info on owning my firearms such as safely storing, cleaning, and more accurately shooting them, almost every gun owner I know that have taken them are happier gun owners.

    Also, Lorie, let me echo that that is a good question and much appreciated as it seeks to find practical solutions besides simply pointing out that sinful people to sinful things.
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon

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    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Graham View Post
    It took the Point Arthur Massacre to do that for us in Australia and a Prime Minister with the courage to take on the Gun Lobby and with an ability to work with all of the State and Territory Governments to put together uniform legislation across the whole country. And since then, we've never had another gun related massacre since.

    Easier for us with a smaller population size and fewer guns in circulation. Easier for us politically too, with only 6 States and 2 Major Territories to deal with. It will be a lot more difficult for any type of Gun Law reform in the United States.

    And people out here can still purchase guns for appropriate reasons. Sure criminal history checks are carried out as well as checks on a mental health register, but most people would pass these checks. So we still have many guns in people's homes around the country, but they all have to be locked in gun cabinets and the licences of the gun holders are regularly reviewed. (Nearly every farmer I suspect would own at least one firearm.)

    Particular categories of fire arms are prohibited however, such as Automatic and Semi-Automatic rifles and (for most people) all concealable firearms such as revolvers or pistols. This lessens the risk of a legitimate gun owner going off the rails and killing a lot of people quickly.

    This whole issue of "gun management" will never be fully resolved in free societies. Even in my country, civil libertarians would like our gun laws reversed, while others would prefer us to have no guns at all. We'll never fully eliminate gun related violence but we can reduce the risk factors of gun massacres occurring to much lower levels. Steps such as criminal history checks and mental health assessment checks would I think be a sensible step in the right direction. (Though personally I would also ban automatic weapons, which I think would have a better effect in the long term.)
    David,

    I'm just wondering. Prior to the implementation of Australia's gun control policy, were most of the firearms in Australia registered? If someone didn't turn in their firearms voluntarily, did the government know that? How did they know who to confiscate the guns from?

    My guess is that probably 2/3's of all firearms in America are not registered. We could pass strict control laws, but the officials would not know most of the people who failed to comply ... and there would be a lot of people who did not comply.

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    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by John F Martin View Post
    I agree, Sarah. The nation has become enamored with the Second Amendment, leading to a hyper-sensitivity about it. The NRA has poured millions into creating impressions intolerant of any gun legislation as being anti- Second Amendment. Seeing ANY gun legislation as anti- Second Amendment is harmful to us all. Right to bear arms had to do with preserving the right of the citizenry to protect itself from an overbearing, oppressive government. It's doubtful the framers of the Constitution would stand for today's popular interpretation, in which it's thought we have to let guns into the hands of every idiot who wants to obtain them. Presidents Reagan and others oversaw tightened regulations, and we need some of that again! My Nonprofit Marketing students are reading this week about Social Marketing (marketing to effect behavioral change or shifts in public policy). It's hard to get these points across to influence public attitudes until the mental health advocates have as many resources to spend on advertising as the NRA has!
    Thanks John for these insights..... I foresee a difficult road ahead until any "sensible" improvements can be made in America's Gun policies.
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    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    What would be considered mental illness? Is it a person on anti-depressants? That would eliminate 1/6 of Americans. What about the mentally ill man who is not under a physician’s care? He's not on any red flag list when a background check is done.

    How do you go about this?
    Good questions Lorie.... I don't know what criteria is used out here to assess this, but I do know some people who struggle with depression (and are on medication) who own guns (for legitimate reasons). So it can't be so onerous as to restrict people who suffer with a "normal" range of depression from owning guns.

    But the way I see it, is that those who suffer from serious delusions and anxieties most probably would be excluded. But what the criteria is that the vetting authority uses, I don't know.

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    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    David,

    I'm just wondering. Prior to the implementation of Australia's gun control policy, were most of the firearms in Australia registered? If someone didn't turn in their firearms voluntarily, did the government know that? How did they know who to confiscate the guns from?

    My guess is that probably 2/3's of all firearms in America are not registered. We could pass strict control laws, but the officials would not know most of the people who failed to comply ... and there would be a lot of people who did not comply.
    Thanks Glenn for a "hard" question , from what I can remember, most guns were "supposedly" registered. But once registered, people often exchanged them, sold them or disposed of them without letting anyone know what they did with them. (I'm not even sure whether the law required people even to do that back then..... and on top of that, the law probably varied in different States anyway.)

    So, all I can say in response to your question is ...... "well, possibly a narrow majority of them".

    I remember when the law had been introduced, I had only 3 months previously given my rifle away to a friend who already had other firearms and I was kicking myself because had I waited I could have made a bit of money from handing it in. (So I was one of those pesky people who didn't tell the authorities that I had gotten rid of the rifle.... a semi-automatic Winchester 22 which I'd owned for years but seldom used. However, I have never been contacted by anyone about what I did with the weapon, which indicates that they didn't really know who had what.)
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    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    The use of 'political correctness' as a means of dismissing the opinions of others as worthless does not promote understanding.

    If your previous post was a dozen eggs, 11 were good and 1 was rotten. I suppose we can celebrate the 11.
    Couldn't agree more and I think this every time I read another article about invited speakers being 'uninvited' or shouted down at some university because some students or special interest group feels threatened by what the speaker wanted to share. Now some students at Notre Dame feel threatened by VP Mike Pence presence on campus......PC gone crazy in my opinion.
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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Messer View Post
    Couldn't agree more and I think this every time I read another article about invited speakers being 'uninvited' or shouted down at some university because some students or special interest group feels threatened by what the speaker wanted to share. Now some students at Notre Dame feel threatened by VP Mike Pence presence on campus......PC gone crazy in my opinion.
    I actually agree with you about what you write here. That being said, what in the world does that have to do with the issue being discussed in this thread?
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Host CE and Gen. Disc. forums David Parker's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Any violence against children generates strong emotion among all rational people. But strong emotion isn't a good premise for good law or public policy.

    As example, I have yet to hear a single change of gun laws or policy that would change any of these crimes. Except to 'fortify' schools and other 'soft targets' like schools, and provide them similar protections as Federal buildings, airports, etc.

    For instance, this most recent murder/suicide was perpetrated by a man with a criminal history who was forbidden by law to own or possess any firearm. His weapon was a revolver. He had plenty of time unchallenged to even reload it.

    Revolvers are of course 19th century technology. There is no proposal by anyone that I have heard to outlaw revolvers. They are relatively low capacity and slow to reload. And the shooter was forbidden by law to posses it. He broke multiple laws to commit the murders. What new gun law, other than total and complete confiscation of all firearms, would have addressed this?

    And this is true of most all of these shootings. The shooter at Sandy Hook murdered the gun owner (his mother) and stole her guns. So, other than confiscation, what law could have prevented this?

    Speaking of which, there is much disputed analysis of Australia's actions, but ignoring that bunny trail, this isn't Australia. We have over 300,000,000 firearms in private possession. Over 40% of U.S. households are armed. Our founders clearly did not want only government and military to be armed, and for good reasons. Whether we like it or not, it is a big part of our country's history. But here is where emotional fantasy and reality always clash. There is no 'magic wand'. We can't time travel. So what type of government and force would be required to confiscate and eliminate all privately held firearms? Will never happen in this country for many good reasons. And even with a functioning Police State, most agree it could never succeed. So we need to move beyond such fantasy.

    Reading through this thread, I'm not surprised to read complete misunderstandings about guns, gun laws and policy in this country. Briefly, guns are restricted and regulated in this country like few products. I challenge anyone here in any State, to walk in to a gun store and try to purchase a handgun. The red tape may surprise some here. The Second Amendment doesn't mean 'no regulations', nor has it ever.

    And regarding "assault weapons", the entire term is a myth. Logic tells us that any weapon used to assault, is an 'assault weapon', regardless of type. Yet the Left actually created this term back in the early 90's in an attempt to confuse the public and generate public support for gun bans. This New York Times piece is helpful. The intent was to confuse "Assault Rifles" which are military weapons, with civilian models that do NOT and never have featured 'select fire', automatic fire (machine gun) action. The ONLY thing civilian models share are cosmetic features that don't have any affect on its power.

    The AR-15 variants (civilian model of the M-16) are the most commonly owned rifle in the U.S. Millions are in private hands. It is not a machine gun. And as a .223 caliber, it isn't even powerful enough for large game hunting. Other than defense and target use, it is just a small varmint gun. CA and other states, of course have an "Assault Weapon" ban. Has for years. Here is what is defined as an 'Assault Weapon' in CA and several other states: 1) an adjustable stock, 2) pistol grip, 3) forward grip, 4) flash hider. All matters of comfort and individual fit, not power or ability to kill. The media, generally being woefully ignorant and incurious about firearms, repeats and reinforces this nonsense. And certain politicians are notorious for trying to confuse the public, inferring repeatedly that 'assault weapons' are the same as 'assault rifles'. They simply are not. The entire term "assault weapon" is an artificial politically contrived term of art that is dishonest.

    In my opinion, acts of violence such as occurred in this school, isn't about the Second Amendment, and doesn't cry out for yet another unrelated law. It certainly does show once again how open and vulnerable our schools are to tragic violent events. I believe we need to focus on better securing and protecting our children. They should enjoy at least the same protections our politicians, federal buildings, and airports employ.
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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    Reading through this thread, I'm not surprised to read complete misunderstandings about guns, gun laws and policy in this country. Briefly, guns are restricted and regulated in this country like few products. I challenge anyone here in any State, to walk in to a gun store and try to purchase a handgun. The red tape may surprise some here. The Second Amendment doesn't mean 'no regulations', nor has it ever.
    I can get one from a gun show without showing ID. I can get one from my neighbor without showing ID. No "red tape" whatsoever.

    And regarding "assault weapons", the entire term is a myth.
    Perhaps the "term is a myth", but you know what's meant by it. I can go online and buy a 30-round magazine for my AR-15 any time I want to. In fact, I can buy a coupler so that I can have five 30 round clips at my fingertips. Why in God's name would any civilian need this? I know two people who buy this type of stuff. They're both lunatic, paranoid fringe types. And they're armed to the teeth. Makes me want to puke.
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    Any violence against children generates strong emotion among all rational people. But strong emotion isn't a good premise for good law or public policy.

    As example, I have yet to hear a single change of gun laws or policy that would change any of these crimes. Except to 'fortify' schools and other 'soft targets' like schools, and provide them similar protections as Federal buildings, airports, etc.
    Actually I've heard several people talking about removing easy access to firearms, which would result in fewer of them in existence.

    Additionally we've had remarks about increasing availability to mental health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    I am in agreement with you -- it's most certainly NOT the sole answer. We don't fund mental health services. In fact, some of us are wanting to strip coverage for mental health services from health insurance policies. Let's CHANGE THAT. Some of us recently overturned a ban on gun purchases by people who are receiving social security disability benefits for mental health issues. Let's CHANGE THAT. Tell me how -- I beg you. I do my best to change those things (at the ballot box). How about you?

    My schizophrenic neighbor has three handguns and a shot gun that I know of. He acquired every one of them legally. In fact, rumor has it he has a concealed carry permit. THAT'S what happens when the NRA has a bigger voice in DC than I do.

    I'm trying so hard to keep my post from being "political". This particular topic makes that difficult if not downright impossible, though.
    For instance, this most recent murder/suicide was perpetrated by a man with a criminal history who was forbidden by law to own or possess any firearm. His weapon was a revolver. He had plenty of time unchallenged to even reload it.

    Revolvers are of course 19th century technology. There is no proposal by anyone that I have heard to outlaw revolvers. They are relatively low capacity and slow to reload. And the shooter was forbidden by law to posses it. He broke multiple laws to commit the murders. What new gun law, other than total and complete confiscation of all firearms, would have addressed this?

    And this is true of most all of these shootings. The shooter at Sandy Hook murdered the gun owner (his mother) and stole her guns. So, other than confiscation, what law could have prevented this?
    Requiring all gun owners to keep their firearms unloaded and locked in a secured safe would have prevented plenty of incidents like Sandy Hook. Even if the shooter had murdered his mother and even if he had access to her gun safe he might not have access to the ammunition.
    Speaking of which, there is much disputed analysis of Australia's actions, but ignoring that bunny trail, this isn't Australia. We have over 300,000,000 firearms in private possession. Over 40% of U.S. households are armed. Our founders clearly did not want only government and military to be armed, and for good reasons. Whether we like it or not, it is a big part of our country's history. But here is where emotional fantasy and reality always clash. There is no 'magic wand'. We can't time travel. So what type of government and force would be required to confiscate and eliminate all privately held firearms? Will never happen in this country for many good reasons. And even with a functioning Police State, most agree it could never succeed. So we need to move beyond such fantasy.
    Perhaps calling it a fantasy only perpetuates the idea. Maybe you could give up your right to bear arms for the greater good instead of demanding that it's an impossibility and that the nebulous "founders" wouldn't have wanted it that way.
    Reading through this thread, I'm not surprised to read complete misunderstandings about guns, gun laws and policy in this country. Briefly, guns are restricted and regulated in this country like few products. I challenge anyone here in any State, to walk in to a gun store and try to purchase a handgun. The red tape may surprise some here. The Second Amendment doesn't mean 'no regulations', nor has it ever.
    There are plenty of states where it is easier to get a gun (even a handgun) than over the counter medication, a car, fireworks or a driver's license.
    And regarding "assault weapons", the entire term is a myth. Logic tells us that any weapon used to assault, is an 'assault weapon', regardless of type. Yet the Left actually created this term back in the early 90's in an attempt to confuse the public and generate public support for gun bans. This New York Times piece is helpful. The intent was to confuse "Assault Rifles" which are military weapons, with civilian models that do NOT and never have featured 'select fire', automatic fire (machine gun) action. The ONLY thing civilian models share are cosmetic features that don't have any affect on its power.

    The AR-15 variants (civilian model of the M-16) are the most commonly owned rifle in the U.S. Millions are in private hands. It is not a machine gun. And as a .223 caliber, it isn't even powerful enough for large game hunting. Other than defense and target use, it is just a small varmint gun.
    I guess you forget that the entire reasoning behind the creation of the 5.56x45mm NATO round? (yes, I know the 5.56 and the .223 Remington are slightly different, but the creation of the AR-15 is the topic) The reasoning was that wounding an enemy combatant was more valuable than killing him, thus the need for a round with the killing power of a 7.62 x 51 mm was no longer.

    In short the 5.56/.223 was created for wounding humans efficiently and being able to carry more rounds per person. Simply saying that its a "varmint" gun and isn't usable for "large game" doesn't negate that the round was created for use on humans. There is a reason that law enforcement uses the AR-15/M4, and it isn't because its a "varmint gun."
    CA and other states, of course have an "Assault Weapon" ban. Has for years. Here is what is defined as an 'Assault Weapon' in CA and several other states: 1) an adjustable stock, 2) pistol grip, 3) forward grip, 4) flash hider. All matters of comfort and individual fit, not power or ability to kill. The media, generally being woefully ignorant and incurious about firearms, repeats and reinforces this nonsense. And certain politicians are notorious for trying to confuse the public, inferring repeatedly that 'assault weapons' are the same as 'assault rifles'. They simply are not. The entire term "assault weapon" is an artificial politically contrived term of art that is dishonest.
    You're right, "assault weapon" is a contrived term focused more on the appearance of a firearm rather than the lethality. However, flash suppressors, large magazines, forward pistol grips, suppressors, etc were not invented nor are primarily for the purpose of hunting or target practice. They are for combat or stealth purposes and in my view entirely legitimate items for regulation from the general public.

    So while the Assault weapon designation is a mess and is ambiguous at best, there is a point to be made for regulating certain types of firearm modifications.
    In my opinion, acts of violence such as occurred in this school, isn't about the Second Amendment, and doesn't cry out for yet another unrelated law. It certainly does show once again how open and vulnerable our schools are to tragic violent events. I believe we need to focus on better securing and protecting our children. They should enjoy at least the same protections our politicians, federal buildings, and airports employ.
    Isn't that like saying that we shouldn't wash our hands but wear protective gloves?

    Removing the prevalence of firearms and the ease at which they are obtained will do more to protect our children than will any amount of locked doors, metal detectors or police presence.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Host CE and Gen. Disc. forums David Parker's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    I can get one from a gun show without showing ID. I can get one from my neighbor without showing ID. No "red tape" whatsoever.
    Any gun dealer at a gun show is held to the same background checks as a retail store. In some states, individual people can sell to another individual person without background checks at gun shows or in your living room. There are good reasons for this exception, but many states, such as CA, do require that all private sales, at gun shows or anywhere, go through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process with background checks, 10 day waiting period, etc. It may surprise you that this has had zero impact on crime. People who obey the many laws, especially onerous and expensive laws, don't commit crimes with their guns. Those who do, don't care about these hurdles, and ignore them.

    What school shooting or other such crime has ever been committed after such a private transfer? Yet it is one of the first complaints that come out after a criminal shooting, not because it would have made a difference, but for emotional and control reasons.



    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Perhaps the "term is a myth", but you know what's meant by it. I can go online and buy a 30-round magazine for my AR-15 any time I want to. In fact, I can buy a coupler so that I can have five 30 round clips at my fingertips. Why in God's name would any civilian need this? I know two people who buy this type of stuff. They're both lunatic, paranoid fringe types. And they're armed to the teeth. Makes me want to puke.
    Complaints about magazine capacities are fundamentally a complaint against technology that makes no difference. 30 round magazines are a felony in CA. Can't buy them, can't own them, can't use them. Online retailers won't sell or ship them to CA residents. We are limited to 10 round capacity, and must not be able to remove/change the magazine without a tool. Has been the law for years. Didn't make a bit of difference to the Islamist San Bernadino shooters. They used CA compliant rifles purchased in CA, and violating such restrictions didn't make a bit of difference to them.

    As of the first of this year, we can now no longer even get ARs with a 10 round mag that requires a tool to release. Now, the magazines must be 'fixed' without any way to change the magazine short of dissembling the rifle. So politicians who are ignorant of gun technology are once again trying to roll back technology. The result? It will now be faster and easier to change out magazines, because dissembling the action of an AR isn't a problem. Multiple hardware solutions are now available to allow a quick pull of the rear take-down pin, which opens the action, drop the mag, snap shut, and insert new mag. Is now faster than looking for a punch, screwdriver, or other tool to depress the old mag release. You just can't un-ring the bell of technology.
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    Any gun dealer at a gun show is held to the same background checks as a retail store. In some states, individual people can sell to another individual person without background checks at gun shows or in your living room. There are good reasons for this exception, but many states, such as CA, do require that all private sales, at gun shows or anywhere, go through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process with background checks, 10 day waiting period, etc. It may surprise you that this has had zero impact on crime. People who obey the many laws, especially onerous and expensive laws, don't commit crimes with their guns. Those who do, don't care about these hurdles, and ignore them.

    What school shooting or other such crime has ever been committed after such a private transfer? Yet it is one of the first complaints that come out after a criminal shooting, not because it would have made a difference, but for emotional and control reasons.





    Complaints about magazine capacities are fundamentally a complaint against technology that makes no difference. 30 round magazines are a felony in CA. Can't buy them, can't own them, can't use them. Online retailers won't sell or ship them to CA residents. We are limited to 10 round capacity, and must not be able to remove/change the magazine without a tool. Has been the law for years. Didn't make a bit of difference to the Islamist San Bernadino shooters. They used CA compliant rifles purchased in CA, and violating such restrictions didn't make a bit of difference to them.

    As of the first of this year, we can now no longer even get ARs with a 10 round mag that requires a tool to release. Now, the magazines must be 'fixed' without any way to change the magazine short of dissembling the rifle. So politicians who are ignorant of gun technology are once again trying to roll back technology. The result? It will now be faster and easier to change out magazines, because dissembling the action of an AR isn't a problem. Multiple hardware solutions are now available to allow a quick pull of the rear take-down pin, which opens the action, drop the mag, snap shut, and insert new mag. Is now faster than looking for a punch, screwdriver, or other tool to depress the old mag release. You just can't un-ring the bell of technology.
    This seems to be a rather poor argument of "if people can do it, then we can't stop them."

    There's a law on the books that you can't drive without a license plate on the front and rear of your vehicle in Maryland. Am I still able to drive my car down the road without these items? Absolutely. Am I am to drive inconspicuously down the road and use my vehicle in the act of a crime without anyone being able to identify the owner? Sure. But its not as likely that law enforcement will just shrug their shoulders at a vehicle without plates driving around. In short it makes the crime more difficult to accomplish. Impossible, no, but more difficult.

    Limiting weapons to fixed magazines will only irritate those who wish to use them for continuous fire and criminals. Target shooters have long favored bolt action and other loading system, they simply don't need the ability to fire 10+ rounds without manual loading. Hunters don't need the ability to fire off that many round either.

    Making it more inconvenient to be able to pull off a crime will actually effect the nature of that crime.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Requiring all gun owners to keep their firearms unloaded and locked in a secured safe would have prevented plenty of incidents like Sandy Hook.
    My memory is that the mother's guns were kept in a safe, and he stole her safe keys after he killed her. I agree that laws requiring guns be under lock if not in use is a smart and reasonable restriction, but it wouldn't have helped Sandy Hook. I disagree about being unloaded. Ammo is locked in the same safe anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Maybe you could give up your right to bear arms for the greater good instead of demanding that it's an impossibility and that the nebulous "founders" wouldn't have wanted it that way.
    Even if I agreed, that would be an empty emotional gesture. I don't want to live in the Police State that would be required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    I guess you forget that the entire reasoning behind the creation of the 5.56x45mm NATO round?
    Not at all. My point is that the politicians and media want to make these rifles out to be "powerful military weapons", which they are not. They are civilian models without burst or automatic fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    However, flash suppressors, large magazines, forward pistol grips, suppressors, etc were not invented nor are primarily for the purpose of hunting or target practice. They are for combat or stealth purposes and in my view entirely legitimate items for regulation from the general public.
    We disagree. Ever did night hunting or night defense firing without a flash suppressor? Muzzle flash blinds you. Forward pistol grip? Merely a comfort style feature. Makes no difference in lethality. And suppressors have nothing to do with "assault weapon" restrictions. They are an NFA regulated, ATF enforced, restricted item for all firearms. That is another discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Removing the prevalence of firearms and the ease at which they are obtained will do more to protect our children than will any amount of locked doors, metal detectors or police presence.
    Israel's experience with school shootings demonstrate otherwise. Regardless, these proposals don't fit the circumstances or the crimes. Better to focus on rational and reasonable prevention, than emotionally driven measures that don't address the problem.
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    My memory is that the mother's guns were kept in a safe, and he stole her safe keys after he killed her. I agree that laws requiring guns be under lock if not in use is a smart and reasonable restriction, but it wouldn't have helped Sandy Hook. I disagree about being unloaded. Ammo is locked in the same safe anyway.
    Why shouldn't a firearm be unloaded when not in use? Seems like an unnecessary danger.
    Even if I agreed, that would be an empty emotional gesture. I don't want to live in the Police State that would be required.
    Might I suggest that force isn't the only way to change things? Perhaps an example might be in order... if it isn't too inconvenient for you.
    Not at all. My point is that the politicians and media want to make these rifles out to be "powerful military weapons", which they are not. They are civilian models without burst or automatic fire.
    And yet the round construction and the purpose of the round is to be used against humans. Even a Mini-14 uses the round and it is a "powerful military weapon."

    We aren't talking about a 22 LR or a .38 S&W here.
    We disagree. Ever did night hunting or night defense firing without a flash suppressor? Muzzle flash blinds you.
    Then get an exception for hunting. Most aren't buying them for that reason.
    Forward pistol grip? Merely a comfort style feature. Makes no difference in lethality.
    It doesn't help with accuracy nor would you find it most hunting rifles.
    And suppressors have nothing to do with "assault weapon" restrictions. They are an NFA regulated, ATF enforced, restricted item for all firearms. That is another discussion
    It's part of the same discussion because of who usually wants to buy them and the same arguments are used.
    Israel's experience with school shootings demonstrate otherwise. Regardless, these proposals don't fit the circumstances or the crimes. Better to focus on rational and reasonable prevention, than emotionally driven measures that don't address the problem.
    Australia, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, etc also don't have school shooting problems. Maybe we should be taking their stance on firearms since it seems to be effective.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Host CE and Gen. Disc. forums David Parker's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Why shouldn't a firearm be unloaded when not in use? Seems like an unnecessary danger.

    Might I suggest that force isn't the only way to change things? Perhaps an example might be in order... if it isn't too inconvenient for you.

    And yet the round construction and the purpose of the round is to be used against humans. Even a Mini-14 uses the round and it is a "powerful military weapon."

    We aren't talking about a 22 LR or a .38 S&W here. Then get an exception for hunting. Most aren't buying them for that reason. It doesn't help with accuracy nor would you find it most hunting rifles.

    It's part of the same discussion because of who usually wants to buy them and the same arguments are used.

    Australia, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, etc also don't have school shooting problems. Maybe we should be taking their stance on firearms since it seems to be effective.
    Frankly, this just feels like arguing, and I don't have the time or desire. We can disagree without this continual back and forth. Hope you have a wonderful Easter!
    Last edited by David Parker; April 14th, 2017 at 11:03 AM.
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    But if my son is out to kill, and guns not available, he WILL use a car or a knife or a rock or a bomb or whatever he can come up with. Even in a gunless world we would have murder and mass murder.
    I've heard this argument many times, and always think back to the couple of years when we lived in London. One thing that surprised me was that any time there was a stabbing, it made the headlines in the news. They weren't common per se, but often enough, and usually involved youth in poor areas of the city. More or less gang related. Obviously I'm generalizing here, but my memory is that they were usually a situation where 1-2 people were stabbed, and victims died probably around 50% of the time. My surprise came from the fact that this even made the news, as in the US we rarely see news about shootings when they are contained in the slums, and limited to ruffians shooting other ruffians. It made the news there because it was rare, and there were never more violent (shooting) attacks. The rate of death also stood out to me.

    Point being, I agree that you don't need a gun to be a murderer, but having one certainly helps. In the attack in London recently, I believe 6 people were killed. This was a tragedy, but I can only imagine what the toll would have been if the driver had access to a cache of guns.

    The UK's gun laws are sensible and highly effective. And while they aren't 100% effective at preventing murders, the statistics clearly prove that they're doing a better job than ours are. But as David rightly points out, Americans have a lot of guns and a certain mentality regarding their right to have them. So without a significant shift in public perception of the need/right to own certain types of weapons, and what kinds of limitations we should put on ourselves for the greater good, it is impractical to think we could become the UK. But while this may be true, I don't think it is valid to simply wash our hands of our difficult situation by trying to equate a rock and rifle.

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    I never suggested a gun and a rock are equal, nor did I suggest we just wash our hands of the problem.

    I DO think we often speak past each other: those against a total ban on guns are simply not listened to when they advocate for SOME restrictions and for better mental health care. Those for the total ban seem to have an all or nothing mind set. And on the flip side, those wanting the total ban are often not listened to by the no ban folks.

    But many of us are for better mental health care, better screening for gun possession, better law enforcement for domestic violence and gun related crimes, some limits on the types of guns citizens may own legally, and much much better reporting and action for those individuals with a history of violence or serious mental illness. I just wish the total ban folks and absolutely no gun control folks would stop the speaking in absolutes and work with each other.

    Might get something realistic done that way.

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    But many of us are for better mental health care, better screening for gun possession, better law enforcement for domestic violence and gun related crimes, some limits on the types of guns citizens may own legally, and much much better reporting and action for those individuals with a history of violence or serious mental illness. I just wish the total ban folks and absolutely no gun control folks would stop the speaking in absolutes and work with each other.

    Might get something realistic done that way.
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    I never suggested a gun and a rock are equal, nor did I suggest we just wash our hands of the problem.

    I DO think we often speak past each other: those against a total ban on guns are simply not listened to when they advocate for SOME restrictions and for better mental health care. Those for the total ban seem to have an all or nothing mind set. And on the flip side, those wanting the total ban are often not listened to by the no ban folks.

    But many of us are for better mental health care, better screening for gun possession, better law enforcement for domestic violence and gun related crimes, some limits on the types of guns citizens may own legally, and much much better reporting and action for those individuals with a history of violence or serious mental illness. I just wish the total ban folks and absolutely no gun control folks would stop the speaking in absolutes and work with each other.

    Might get something realistic done that way.
    Now if only the pro-"life" camp would heed your advice.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    Frankly, this just feels like arguing, and I don't have the time or desire. We can disagree without this continual back and forth. Hope you have a wonderful Easter!
    Might I suggest that it feels like arguing because I am challenging your opinions? Cognitive dissonance is never comfortable but discourse may bring about a better solution than abruptly ending a conversation without as much as considering changing your position.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Now if only the pro-"life" camp would heed your advice.
    I need a "scratching my head" icon. Are you saying you wish the pro-life group would stop speaking in absolutes? If so, that is completely different seeing as many, like me, see ALL abortion as murder. There is no discussion. There is no compromise. The discussion should be in how we take care of the pregnant mother and also the child once born. Gun control on the other hand has areas where we can discuss and maybe even compromise.
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Benjamin, I seriously doubt you meant it that way but your comment comes across to me, a pro life gun owning advocate of better controls as "Oh well if you are going to make sense I'll just attack you personally."

    Want to clear it up so the discussion can maybe do some good?

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    I need a "scratching my head" icon. Are you saying you wish the pro-life group would stop speaking in absolutes? If so, that is completely different seeing as many, like me, see ALL abortion as murder. There is no discussion. There is no compromise. The discussion should be in how we take care of the pregnant mother and also the child once born. Gun control on the other hand has areas where we can discuss and maybe even compromise.
    Abortion has a number of gray areas as well if one is willing to hear about it. If you don't believe me, just ask some people who are anti-abortion whether they would use a morning-after pill if they or someone they care about was a victim of rape or incest. Or ask the same group of people if they would favor carrying a pregnancy to full-term when the fetus has anencephaly (absence of a brain/central nervous system with 100% mortality) - causing unnecessary risk to the woman's life.

    I wager that these are only two of many instances where a hard-line, absolutist position doesn't make any moral sense in the real world.

    The analogy is fitting - that extreme positions on gun rights and on abortion are equally unhelpful and ultimately unreasonable.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bentley View Post
    I need a "scratching my head" icon. Are you saying you wish the pro-life group would stop speaking in absolutes? If so, that is completely different seeing as many, like me, see ALL abortion as murder. There is no discussion. There is no compromise. The discussion should be in how we take care of the pregnant mother and also the child once born. Gun control on the other hand has areas where we can discuss and maybe even compromise.
    Do you wish to act upon that which would save lives or not?

    Your last comment seems to answer that question as "no."
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    Benjamin, I seriously doubt you meant it that way but your comment comes across to me, a pro life gun owning advocate of better controls as "Oh well if you are going to make sense I'll just attack you personally."

    Want to clear it up so the discussion can maybe do some good?
    You advocate for a non-absolutist cooperation, but surely you don't mean to extend this to all matters, even if it beneficial. That's what I meant.

    Think of how you will react to something I'll write here in a moment. If your first reaction is something along the lines of "well, that's just false and I need to find something to prove it as such," please ask yourself why.

    Access to abortion has shown over the last few decades to decrease the number of abortions. If one truly wanted to decrease the number of abortions then making it more accessible should also be an option to be explored. Yet this will never be an acceptable option for most "pro-life" people as they are absolutist in thinking and tactic, not wanting to give an inch to the "other" side.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    And so another conversation ends. If you have already decided before I put forth any idea or opinion that you already know what I will say and that you will disagree, there is no point in continuing. You have no clue as to whether or not I am absolutist on abortions while being prolife and can give no good reason why I could not be both absolutist on abortion (if I am) AND right in calling for the "total gun ban" and "no ban at all on guns" people to come to the table and reason together.

    I'd prefer not to engage in demonizing either side and working for change. So I won't be continuing this particular conversation.

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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Yet this will never be an acceptable option for most "pro-life" people as they are absolutist in thinking and tactic, not wanting to give an inch to the "other" side.
    I mostly agree with you, but if you are a person who believes that life begins at conception and thus all abortion is murder, can you give even an inch?

    Don't get me wrong. I agree that many "prolife" people are inconsistent. But I'm not sure that expecting them to give an inch here is realistic. Rather, we should find areas of commonality and develop ways to work together in those areas.
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    I mostly agree with you, but if you are a person who believes that life begins at conception and thus all abortion is murder, can you give even an inch?

    Don't get me wrong. I agree that many "prolife" people are inconsistent. But I'm not sure that expecting them to give an inch here is realistic. Rather, we should find areas of commonality and develop ways to work together in those areas.
    Yes. In the same way as I can allow my Muslim neighbor to practice his religion without me constantly pestering him that he's going to hell. In the same way that I can speak to my close friend who is living with his girlfriend with no intention of ever marrying her without reminding him that his actions are not what they should be.

    I don't have to enforce other's actions even if I believe them to have dire results. So if giving greater access to abortions lowers the abortion rate, couldn't I see loaning the church property to a Muslim congregation who had suffered fire damage as a similar beneficial action?
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Smith View Post
    And so another conversation ends. If you have already decided before I put forth any idea or opinion that you already know what I will say and that you will disagree, there is no point in continuing. You have no clue as to whether or not I am absolutist on abortions while being prolife and can give no good reason why I could not be both absolutist on abortion (if I am) AND right in calling for the "total gun ban" and "no ban at all on guns" people to come to the table and reason together.

    I'd prefer not to engage in demonizing either side and working for change. So I won't be continuing this particular conversation.
    I made a conjecture as part of the discussion. You are welcome to educate me on your position as I could be wrong.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Gun control has morphed to abortion. If I can find a way to morph this thread to gay marriage before it gets locked, that has to be a NN record of some kind
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Access to abortion has shown over the last few decades to decrease the number of abortions.
    [CONTINUING THREAD TANGENT]
    I have a hunch that this is a reach.

    Abortion rates are indeed at the lowest level since legalization but it doesn't appear that access to abortion has caused this decline. Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute don't even appear to be making this claim: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...nce-roe-v-wade

    The best you might be able to do would be to show correlation (and I don't think you can), not causation. As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. Restrictions on abortion may also be contributing to reductions in the number of abortions. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    [CONTINUING THREAD TANGENT]
    I have a hunch that this is a reach.

    Abortion rates are indeed at the lowest level since legalization but it doesn't appear that access to abortion has caused this decline. Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute don't even appear to be making this claim: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...nce-roe-v-wade

    The best you might be able to do would be to show correlation (and I don't think you can), not causation. As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. Restrictions on abortion may also be contributing to reductions in the number of abortions. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
    Come on Bud, this is the internet, correlation is always and absolutely causation!

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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    [CONTINUING THREAD TANGENT]
    I have a hunch that this is a reach.

    Abortion rates are indeed at the lowest level since legalization but it doesn't appear that access to abortion has caused this decline. Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute don't even appear to be making this claim: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...nce-roe-v-wade

    The best you might be able to do would be to show correlation (and I don't think you can), not causation. As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. Restrictions on abortion may also be contributing to reductions in the number of abortions. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
    Bud, forgive me, but you just circumvented the point. It doesn't really matter if greater access to abortions reduce abortions or not (I do believe I could demonstrate that they do). The issue I was bringing up is that for "pro-life" absolutists, certain things will never be on the table for discussion. Instead of looking at the numbers to see what will reduce the number of abortions, they would rather make it illegal at all costs.

    And to be blunt, you did exactly what I hoped someone wouldn't do.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    As the above article suggests, the most likely contributors to the decrease in abortions is greater access to and use of effective contraceptives. [/END THREAD TANGENT]
    Just a side note: this point is absolutely correct and, at this point, has been proven as fact by many, many studies (beyond just NPR). We don't spend nearly enough time on this point in this discussion and the fact that there are still WAY too many Christians claiming to be pro-life that have stood and continue to stand in the way of even this proven measure. No I don't believe think the potential prospect of sexual promiscuity (especially among young people) is a good one, but between kids having sex before they are married (which they will very likely do regardless) and having the number of abortions reduced, I'll side with safety (and, ultimately, life).
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Bud, forgive me, but you just circumvented the point. It doesn't really matter if greater access to abortions reduce abortions or not (I do believe I could demonstrate that they do). The issue I was bringing up is that for "pro-life" absolutists, certain things will never be on the table for discussion. Instead of looking at the numbers to see what will reduce the number of abortions, they would rather make it illegal at all costs.

    And to be blunt, you did exactly what I hoped someone wouldn't do.
    I knew what your point was. I just didn't think it was appropriate to make it using what I see as a reach with an unsupportable assertion. I'm not deep on the research (there's an understatement!) on the topic of abortion availability and abortion rates, but in reading your statement I thought to myself something along the lines of, "that dog don't hunt".

    Your point that there are people who will hold to their guns in the face of incontrovertible evidence can be made with a more supportable assertion. That's the point I was trying to make. I did try to label it as a thread diversion. 🙂

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    Senior Member Bill Morrison's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Gun control has morphed to abortion. If I can find a way to morph this thread to gay marriage before it gets locked, that has to be a NN record of some kind
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL
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    Senior Member David Gerber's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL
    Young earth/old earth would be a safer choice.

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    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL
    You COULD just blow everyone's mind by claiming you are a youth earth evolutionist. And, of course, by "blow everyone's mind", I mean "make everyone hate you"
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    I knew what your point was. I just didn't think it was appropriate to make it using what I see as a reach with an unsupportable assertion. I'm not deep on the research (there's an understatement!) on the topic of abortion availability and abortion rates, but in reading your statement I thought to myself something along the lines of, "that dog don't hunt".

    Your point that there are people who will hold to their guns in the face of incontrovertible evidence can be made with a more supportable assertion. That's the point I was trying to make. I did try to label it as a thread diversion. 🙂
    Perhaps my trap was laid a bit too cruelly.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

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    Senior Member Glenn Messer's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
    I'd morph it to Creation/Evolution but I fear some of you would call me bad names..........

    BILL

    I thought you would be used to it by now.
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    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Perhaps my trap was laid a bit too cruelly.
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Pence View Post
    Just a side note: this point is absolutely correct and, at this point, has been proven as fact by many, many studies (beyond just NPR). We don't spend nearly enough time on this point in this discussion and the fact that there are still WAY too many Christians claiming to be pro-life that have stood and continue to stand in the way of even this proven measure. No I don't believe think the potential prospect of sexual promiscuity (especially among young people) is a good one, but between kids having sex before they are married (which they will very likely do regardless) and having the number of abortions reduced, I'll side with safety (and, ultimately, life).
    Indeed, the pro-life camp has not been very strategic in this regard. If some people use abortion as a contraceptive method of last resort, then promoting less offensive methods would make a lot of sense. By focusing its effort on extremes - a world where abortion is illegal and sex occurs only between married people - the pro-life camp has probably done more to keep Roe v. Wade in place than anything that the pro-choice camp has done. Those who favor keeping abortion as a method of contraception need only 'point at the crazy' vision of the pro-life position to make their point.

    (attempting to get back to topic...)
    The tangent on abortion is simply a case study on the pointlessness of moving to extremes on both sides. As long as the gun rights conversation is framed as a choice between approving the murder of schoolchildren vs. the government breaking down doors to seize all of the guns in America, this conversation is not a conversation at all...more like rhetorical masturbation.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Diane Likens, John Kennedy, Benjamin Hobbs, Cam Pence - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    And I got an email today from Vet Friends with a link where I can buy a laser sight that will "turn your handgun into a sniper rifle". FREE SHIPPING!

    Beautiful.
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    Senior Member Bud Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Hobbs View Post
    Perhaps my trap was laid a bit too cruelly.
    Forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying. Maybe I'm dense. I don't understand how using a poorly supported(if that) assertion is cruelty. It just seems like a poor argument to me. You could have made your point without making what I believe to be an unsupportable claim.

    Perhaps you're conflating my response to your post with my position on the issue of abortion as well as access to guns. I was not responding to any argument on those issues so much as to point out what I saw as a flaw in your supporting claim. One need not stoop to using (what I saw as) an unsupportable claim to make their point.

    If it's necessary to say so, I will grant you that there are people who will hold to their position in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong or that there is a better way- - on the issue of abortion and on the issue of guns (and so many other issues). The NPR article that I posted (the result of a search for support for your assertion that abortion availability has led to a decrease in abortions) clearly demonstrates this. Both "sides" saw their reasons for the decline in the statistics.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    Forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying. Maybe I'm dense. I don't understand how using a poorly supported(if that) assertion is cruelty. It just seems like a poor argument to me. You could have made your point without making what I believe to be an unsupportable claim.

    Perhaps you're conflating my response to your post with my position on the issue of abortion as well as access to guns. I was not responding to any argument on those issues so much as to point out what I saw as a flaw in your supporting claim. One need not stoop to using (what I saw as) an unsupportable claim to make their point.

    If it's necessary to say so, I will grant you that there are people who will hold to their position in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong or that there is a better way- - on the issue of abortion and on the issue of guns (and so many other issues). The NPR article that I posted (the result of a search for support for your assertion that abortion availability has led to a decrease in abortions) clearly demonstrates this. Both "sides" saw their reasons for the decline in the statistics.
    I agree that the causation argument is very weak. (e.g. availability of abortion services has a causal relationship with fewer abortion procedures performed) This is right up there with the notion that an armed society is a polite society. I call baloney on that as well.

    My gun rights friends point to mass shootings as evidence that America isn't armed enough. Do we really want to live in a society in which every public place is virtually assured to have an armed person present?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks John Kennedy - "thanks" for this post

  97. #97
    Senior Member Benjamin Hobbs's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Pugh View Post
    Forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying. Maybe I'm dense. I don't understand how using a poorly supported(if that) assertion is cruelty. It just seems like a poor argument to me. You could have made your point without making what I believe to be an unsupportable claim.

    Perhaps you're conflating my response to your post with my position on the issue of abortion as well as access to guns. I was not responding to any argument on those issues so much as to point out what I saw as a flaw in your supporting claim. One need not stoop to using (what I saw as) an unsupportable claim to make their point.
    The temptation was great enough that it was unavoidable that someone would focus on the claim rather than the argument in which it was used. If I had said something like "buying more lemons decreases the rate of abortion" I doubt as if the claim would have been as offensive as to be doubted by those of a pro-life inclination.
    If it's necessary to say so, I will grant you that there are people who will hold to their position in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong or that there is a better way- - on the issue of abortion and on the issue of guns (and so many other issues). The NPR article that I posted (the result of a search for support for your assertion that abortion availability has led to a decrease in abortions) clearly demonstrates this. Both "sides" saw their reasons for the decline in the statistics.
    Agreed.
    It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation. What is called for is the 'evangelical catholicism' of John Wesley's 'middle way' in which two historic traditions were synthesized. In this sythesis the English Reformer not only recovered for the Church a viable doctrine of holiness but also pointed the way to a scriptural view and practice of the sacraments that is both apostolic and catholic. ++William Greathouse

  98. #98
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    And I got an email today from Vet Friends with a link where I can buy a laser sight that will "turn your handgun into a sniper rifle". FREE SHIPPING!

    Beautiful.
    Keep up Diane! We have moved on to the next "hot button" topic Actually, I'm with staying contained to this one
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
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  99. #99
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Do we really want to live in a society in which every public place is virtually assured to have an armed person present?
    Sounds like where I live. And I don't know if there has EVER been a mass shooting here. (Not since white people sent the Salish tribe packing, anyway.) Of course, since there are only about 40,000 people in the Bitterroot Valley (with less than 1/4 of them living in an established town), the low population might play a factor, too.

    Ah, causation! How fun it is to imagine the "what ifs"!
    StrengthsFinder Top 5: Input ---------- Intellection ---------- Connectedness ---------- Context ---------- Belief

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  100. #100
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Re: Will we ever say enough's enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post

    (attempting to get back to topic...)
    The tangent on abortion is simply a case study on the pointlessness of moving to extremes on both sides. As long as the gun rights conversation is framed as a choice between approving the murder of schoolchildren vs. the government breaking down doors to seize all of the guns in America, this conversation is not a conversation at all...more like rhetorical masturbation.
    I agree and I actually appreciate practical solutions being offered and discussed (gun bans, stricter guns control, way less strict gun control, "only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", etc.), as at least those are practical solutions and lines of thinking (even though I certainly disagree with a few of them) as opposed to "dark hearts of men" and "sinners gone sin" arguments which I find to be lazy and disingenuous at this point if used in a strictly defeatist manner. All that to say......this thread has actually gone much better than I would have believed in the first page
    “So there are no nontheologians; there is just good theology and bad theology.”- Will Willimon
    Thanks Billy Cox, Benjamin Hobbs - "thanks" for this post

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