Makes for Interesting Consideration; How to Respond?

[Pete Vecchi]

A pastor I know wrote this, I read it, and I am considering how to respond. I have the pastor's permission to share it, but anonymously, because it is from the pastor's heart and not for public dissemination under the pastor's name. But here is what this pastor wrote:

Are my spiritual questions and current understandings off base and leaning too much towards grace and away from rules that I’m corrupting people’s minds? Is my understanding getting too theologically liberal? Jesus is the way—there’s no compromise on that. But the more I learn about Jesus—the more I try to know Him better personally—the more I realize that with Him it’s about relationships and not rules. Every human being is dysfunctional spiritually in different ways. I feel that the more I know Jesus, the more I realize that He accepts people just where they are—they just need to come to Him, and then let Him start working in their lives by the power of the Holy Spirit—not by following the written (and unwritten) rules of the Church of the Nazarene.
I don’t hold a traditional view of the Old Testament, in that I don’t believe that regenerated Christians are bound to follow the rules and laws enumerated there. The Old Testament is still a part of Scripture, but I’ve come to believe that it’s primarily there to show the futility of human effort in trying to attain God—thus the need for a better way—through the death of Jesus. I believe that the Old Testament has not passed away—not one jot or tittle, as I believe the King James translates Jesus as saying—because those who don’t accept Jesus will be judged by the Old Testament Law. But believers in Jesus—those whose hearts have been regenerated and in whom the Holy Spirit lives—are to live their lives by the power and love of the Holy Spirit leading and directing their lives. Yes, much useful instruction is found in the Bible—both Old and New Testaments. But I believe that the Bible—what is called the Word of God, and that I agree contains all truth necessary to salvation—points away from the written word and to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit as the ultimate authority in the Christian’s life.
That’s where I start to wonder if I’m too radical—if I won’t be accepted by most Nazarenes or Nazarene congregations because of those views. Or maybe my views are way off base. I read the quote attributed to Augustine yesterday which says basically, “Love God, and then live as you please.” The point is that if we live for God, we forsake self, and we let the Holy Spirit lead us and guide us to the point that the desires of our hearts are the desires that the Holy Spirit puts there. That’s radial, but that’s how I see it and have come to believe it. At the same time, that does not work for the non-regenerated person. I believe that the Holy Spirit makes a real difference in a person’s life. I believe in imparted, rather than imputed righteousness—where a real change occurs in a person’s life because of the presence the Holy Spirit within makes that person righteous (as opposed to God simply declaring the person righteous more or less by Divine fiat).

So, there are the thoughts of a pastor. How (or should) I respond? What do some some Naznetters think? I welcome people's comments.

[Tami Martin]

Thanks for sharing this, Pete. I'd say, simply, "thanks."

[Pete Vecchi]

Thanks for sharing this, Pete. I'd say, simply, "thanks."

Thank YOU for responding Tami. I'm not sure how to understand your comment though. Are you saying that I should thank the pastor just for sharing? I believe the pastor is doing some soul-searching and is hoping I can actually comment. I guess I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to respond.

[Jim Abrams]

I'll say there is more than enough room in the church of the Nazarene for this pastor and I would be happy to say, "Welcome, be at home, and at peace sister or brother (whatever the case may be). Lets love our God together, and serve him faithfully in our respective areas of mission and responsibility. I'll pray for your success and support you as I can because I want you to be powerfully effective at sharing divine grace, bringing the lost home, disciplining the believer and growing in your own relationship with God."

[Ryan Scott]

My initial response was, "so what?," then I was saddened to think that we've created an atmosphere where these thoughts are a struggle for a pastor. I'd simply affirm the work of the Spirit in this pastor's life and let it be known this is not a solo effort.

[Mike Schutz]

On more than one occasion, as I have preached at a camp, retreat, or an extended series at a church away from home - and even recently in my own church - I have been confronted by a dear saint who believed that I had wandered into dangerous territory. They all said that I was focusing too much on love, too much on grace, and not enough on sin and judgment. I understand the questioning of my colleague here.

Absolutely, there is room in the Church of the Nazarene for this perspective.

[Craig Laughlin]

I'll say there is more than enough room in the church of the Nazarene for this pastor and I would be happy to say, "Welcome, be at home, and at peace sister or brother (whatever the case may be). Lets love our God together, and serve him faithfully in our respective areas of mission and responsibility. I'll pray for your success and support you as I can because I want you to be powerfully effective at sharing divine grace, bringing the lost home, disciplining the believer and growing in your own relationship with God."

I would basically agree with one caveat and that would be to encourage her/him to find one of our academic theologians that she/he likes and get in conversation with them. I think this is always good for pastors but especially if they are grappling with some of our theology. Academic theologians by nature tend to be pretty wide open to discussing things without much judgment. One of the purposes of the Academy is so that we practicing theologians can access those scholarly theologians who are both more free to study and more spiritually gifted in these things. We pay budgets to support our schools and in my opinion one of the "services" is access to scholars in order to toss things around and learn. (Not the same as attacking them trying to prove they are wrong) Over the years I have approached a number of former professors for "warranty" work on my education. I have always found them to be both delighted to be asked and extremely helpful. We are a team.

[Gene Tatsch]

Your friend's journey sounds almost identical to mine.
His discomfiture is that the Spirit has moved him from following a creed/doctrine/religion to following Him.
I think I could be a better disciple under your friend's leadership.

[Paul DeBaufer]

A pastor I know wrote this, I read it, and I am considering how to respond. I have the pastor's permission to share it, but anonymously, because it is from the pastor's heart and not for public dissemination under the pastor's name. But here is what this pastor wrote:

Are my spiritual questions and current understandings off base and leaning too much towards grace and away from rules that I’m corrupting people’s minds? Is my understanding getting too theologically liberal? Jesus is the way—there’s no compromise on that. But the more I learn about Jesus—the more I try to know Him better personally—the more I realize that with Him it’s about relationships and not rules. Every human being is dysfunctional spiritually in different ways. I feel that the more I know Jesus, the more I realize that He accepts people just where they are—they just need to come to Him, and then let Him start working in their lives by the power of the Holy Spirit—not by following the written (and unwritten) rules of the Church of the Nazarene.
I don’t hold a traditional view of the Old Testament, in that I don’t believe that regenerated Christians are bound to follow the rules and laws enumerated there. The Old Testament is still a part of Scripture, but I’ve come to believe that it’s primarily there to show the futility of human effort in trying to attain God—thus the need for a better way—through the death of Jesus. I believe that the Old Testament has not passed away—not one jot or tittle, as I believe the King James translates Jesus as saying—because those who don’t accept Jesus will be judged by the Old Testament Law. But believers in Jesus—those whose hearts have been regenerated and in whom the Holy Spirit lives—are to live their lives by the power and love of the Holy Spirit leading and directing their lives. Yes, much useful instruction is found in the Bible—both Old and New Testaments. But I believe that the Bible—what is called the Word of God, and that I agree contains all truth necessary to salvation—points away from the written word and to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit as the ultimate authority in the Christian’s life.
That’s where I start to wonder if I’m too radical—if I won’t be accepted by most Nazarenes or Nazarene congregations because of those views. Or maybe my views are way off base. I read the quote attributed to Augustine yesterday which says basically, “Love God, and then live as you please.” The point is that if we live for God, we forsake self, and we let the Holy Spirit lead us and guide us to the point that the desires of our hearts are the desires that the Holy Spirit puts there. That’s radial, but that’s how I see it and have come to believe it. At the same time, that does not work for the non-regenerated person. I believe that the Holy Spirit makes a real difference in a person’s life. I believe in imparted, rather than imputed righteousness—where a real change occurs in a person’s life because of the presence the Holy Spirit within makes that person righteous (as opposed to God simply declaring the person righteous more or less by Divine fiat).

So, there are the thoughts of a pastor. How (or should) I respond? What do some some Naznetters think? I welcome people's comments.

I hope that there is room for your friend in the CotN and that he is NOT off base because I have come to many of the same ideas. Such as his view of the Law of Moses (a friend put a black dot on a page then instructed people not to look at it. We were almost compelled to look. I think Paul says something similar about the Law.) Jesus tells us that the greatest commandments are LOVE, of God and everyone else. Legislation is control if it is enforced too stringently and then becomes anti-love. Use the Bible as your guide when following the Holy Spirit as it is useful for instruction and guidance. But I think I am on a very similar page as this pastor. I too would like to be discipled by him.

[Ed DiSante]

I would like to say to this pastor-welcome to the ranks of those who really think about what the scriptures say and are willing to be challenged and to question. I have been a "Nazarene" for 57 years (my current age) and 9 months and only in the last few of those years have I felt the freedom to step outside of some of the "old Fashioned" ways of thinking and saying things for fear of being excluded. I have been encouraged by Nazarenes old and young and know that God honors our questions, our fears, our doubts and is not threatened when we express and share them. If the Holy Spirit at work in my life means anything--it means being drawn closer and closer to God and His love and grace and to my fellow Christians and never being trapped by fear of what others will think if am honest. There will always be those whwho will attack or judge but I learned not to worry about them. I have also learned to listen to the thoughts and fears of others and to love and accept and encourage them as well no matter what side of the discussion they settle on. If we are truly part of a Community of Believers, led by the Spirit, then we will learn and grow together.( hope I didn' bore anyone with this rambling post)

[Tinker Boyd]

This is radical?? I guess I'm starting my Christian walk off outside the box then. It makes perfect sense to me. Wasn't this exactly what Paul was trying to tell us? The law is now written in our hearts i.e. the Holy Spirit guides us. It isn't even inconsistent - I haven't found the Holy Spirit to lead me into breaking the 10 commandmants. If I struggle with whether I'm crowding out the Spirit so that I can do what I want, I can always compare my thoughts/actions against the scriptures. If it isn't consistent, I know it is me and I need to get back into a right relationship.

[Tami Martin]

Thank YOU for responding Tami. I'm not sure how to understand your comment though. Are you saying that I should thank the pastor just for sharing? I believe the pastor is doing some soul-searching and is hoping I can actually comment. I guess I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to respond.

Sorry for being obtuse I'd thank him for having my perspective. I'd thank him for sharing it outloud. As others have said, I would hope there is room in the CotN for grace.

[Sarah Smith]

Sounds like the person who wrote the letter has a grasp on entire sanctification.

The OT Law serves a wonderful purpose: it teaches the lost how lost they are, and helps convict them that they need a Savior. Once saved, it helps us realize how far short of the mark we still come......which drives us right back to the Savior for a cleansed heart.

Once sanctified, the old saying was "go ahead and sin all you want. Of course, with a new wanter, you are going to want most of all to please Jesus, so you won't want to sin."

I don't need a list of rules such as no sleeveless clothes or lots of jewelry. Used to laugh at those rules. But now? I'm older, hopefully more mature spiritually, and don't have to be told not to wear clothing that puts "that look" on a Christian brother's face. And I cannot abide spending lots on fancy jewelry when children in my neighborhood often go to bed not having eaten except what the school fed them.

I can have all the skimpy clothes and jewelry I want. I just don't want them.

Point that man to some good old holiness preaching online and then turn him loose.

Grace is not freedom to sin, but rather freedom to not sin.

[Gina Stevenson]

Amen, Linda!

I read the quote attributed to Augustine yesterday which says basically, “Love God, and then live as you please.” The point is that if we live for God, we forsake self, and we let the Holy Spirit lead us and guide us to the point that the desires of our hearts are the desires that the Holy Spirit puts there.

Pete, as I read this portion of your post, I tho't of the book I just recently got [small groups are doing it here now] with which I am, so far, impressed. Haven't read it all, but when I did get it, I browsed the index, and then turned to the chapter entitled: "Forget about His will for your life!" Now, some might think, "Huh?" But when I saw this title, I figured it might have to do with the long, drawn-out ways in which we idly sit sometimes trying to learn what His "will for our (entire) life" might be. Sure enough, it was about how we can tend to put off/push aside what the Holy Spirit is telling us to do right this minute, today, using this, "I don't know His will for my life" stance/excuse. He mentions how Abraham wasn't told much other than to just start walking, not knowing where he was going, while we want to know every step for the next several years/whatever.

Think this got mentioned somewhere else on NazNet, tho' I'm not sure if I only tho't of posting it, or did. So, will post the book's title/author here. Wasn't honestly too impressed with some previous small group book, but this one has caught my attention, and I look forward to reading more of it ... just not hurrying through it, trying to digest bit by bit as I read. Good reminders in it, it seems, for sure. Entitled, "The Forgotten God: Reversing our Tragic Neglect of the Holy Spirit," by Francis Chan, one place it's found is here:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...lect&x=19&y=19


One thing that caught my eye, too, was his giving current day examples [not just ancient ones of the Abrahamic-sort] of folks who have stepped out like this, heeding that still small voice. In one instance, someone with a very successful restaurant, who figured that in a few years they could sell it and retire set for life. When God intervened, suggesting he sell it "now," he did ... and now cooks for folks in a mission, teaches some to cook [& then helps them secure jobs as cooks/chefs], etc. Scary, but so right.

Think it's worth the read ... I browsed a few other stories, too, after this chapter re "Forget God's will." [don't always read books in the conventional manner ... front cover to back cover ]