Sanctified----NOT!

[William Hunter]

Yesterday I found out a pastor friend of mine just up and resigned due the constant stress he and his family lived under from a few power and control people in his church that have for years sent pastors on their way. He and his good wife just could not take it any more.

We hear about this going on in churches across the denominational spectrum. And this kind of thing keeps going on with the co-dependent approval of too many DS's who refuse to take a stand for the good of the church and just give in to the power brokers in the church. I believe these types of people came to Christ, learned the language, but never grew in His knowledge and grace to the point where they finally FULLY surrendered all of life to Him. Rather they seem to enthrone their agendas, etc., their self, as God, which is the height of self-assertion. And the height of sin. This sin of running the church, of human power and control, of demanding all follow a certain human agenda, etc. keeps the church stagnant at best, if not slowly dying.

Maybe we have not taught our people the importance of listening submissive prayer. We teach a lot of things, but few churches teach this and I have come to believe that this is part of the problem. Our leaders keep coming up with this program and that program for church growth, some of them requiring a substantial out lay of money to participate, but they do not work. Some laypeople seem to have not learned to live in Matt. 6:33, but rather, are so full of self that they demand the right to rule the local church and the local pastor, too often with the DS's approval. Somehow these people have not been fully immersed in Him, giving up any right to human power and control according to their own personal agendas.

They seemingly have not learned that as apprentices (disciples) of Christ, how to live every moment of their lives from the reality of God's kingdom, rather seeking to be lords of their own kindgoms. Somehow these have never learned that the church is NOT theirs, it is God's. It has been my experience over 35 yrs. of ministry as I have watched people like this, that they say they have a personal devotional life, but when I hear them pray I hear too much human-ness coming through in what they say. I hear personal agendas coming through too often. And, how can someone who claims to be fully surrendered to Christ, treat their pastors and families with such meanness, contempt for not following their lead, and who do some of the most unChristlike things to those GOD called to minister. They prove they are not anywhere near knowing what surrender and holiness of heart and life are about. Again, these types, too often with dist. leadership approval, continue their sinful reign over God's church and are driving too many of those who love Christ, out of the church, like many of the combat vets I meet with.

Somehow we have failed to teach our people how to listen to God in prayer, how to hear His voice, and the real meaning of full self-surrender. We have not taught them how to let God reshape them from within. We have not taught them how to hunger and thirst for His righteousness, and how to simply "be" with God. They do not know the bond with Christ that can heal the scatteredness of their lives that comes out in their sinful demand for power and control in the church. We have not taught people how to let God restore their souls. What I am seeing is people demonstrating how dry and parched their souls are and how far they are from the righteousness of Christ.

I believe the root of these problems lies in the disconnectedness of the spiritual life, leaving us with a life focused on "me and about me." It is not centered upon God and what God wants. I do not believe that if God gave these people nothing but Himself, that they would be satisfied. It really comes to struggling to control our own lives and the lives of others around us, or we are learning to rest in God and take our cues from Him. We have fully surrendered, all, and seek NOT to be in charge and run other people. It seems we have somehow lost our ability to teach our people the true meaning of full self-surrender and as a result, our churches are not growing. And too many times this type of human power and control in the church be a few is approved of my too many DS's for they let it go, and on, and on.

The few have caused repeated pain in the lives of several pastors before me, and they have not changed. But I wonder if they and the DS realize what a blessing they performed while continuing to run off another pastor. I have a small but growing cong. of combat vets who dearly love Christ, His Word, and other people. They give themselves to learning to walk like Christ and have NO power and control agendas. I hope my friend can find such a group. These vets have little use for the institutionalized, politically driven church, that seems frought with people who demand power and control over others.

My group has a focus:
1. Learn how to walk like Christ
2. Develop their prayer lives
3. Keep centered on the Word
4. Love and care for each other
5. Reach out to other disabled vets and their families and do whatever we can to help them in whatever way they are struggling.

No demands to go more, do more, and above all else, raise more money. No one pushing and pulling to have their own way. No drain of energies in order to keep an "institution" going, but rather, giving life and its resources to minister to people who need help. I don't know of any cong. that is like this. Too often they are full of human agendas rather than surrendering to Christ. The men I meet with know more about true holiness than many who have been in the church for years and who insist on power and control over the church. I am blessed to be able to finally give my attention to the type of group I now meet with rather than deal with all the deeply intrenched nonsense in the local church with its power and control people who know little or nothing of what true holiness is.

[Todd Erickson]

I would venture, in reference to the title, that these are churches where sanctification is an event, rather than a lifelong process (and therefore not Wesleyan), and that the object therein would be sanctification as "sinlessness", i.e., not commiting morally evil acts, rather than becoming more like Christ (lifestyle which is positively, actively like Christ).

Moral lifestyle which eschews sin but which is not "more and more of thee, oh Saviour" ultimately becomes legalism and guarding the moral walls of Jericho.

[William Hunter]

Todd, my friend was a pastor of a Nazarene church. It was on its last legs when he got there, it is not so now. The church I pastored is Nazarene (though in name only) but a few who have controlled the church for years continue to do so, and it is sliding back to what it was when I got there.

Yes, I agree, many of these power and control types are not Wessleyan in fact; they only know the language but not the experience as can be seen in their refusal to submit to Christ rather than be church bosses.

The sad thing is that we seemingly have too many DS's who go right along with it and let these people continue to put a spiritual strangle-hold on our churches instead of taking a stand and remove these people from power and usher them out of the church. Until they do this type of thing will just keep on happening and good pastors and their families will continue to be hurt, stomped on, with too many leaving the ministry all together. Too bad we do not have a leadership who will take a stand against such sin running the church, as well as DS's and GS's who refuse to follow the Manual. And they wonder why the church in America and Canada do not grow. They just do not seem to get it. It is better to loss a few, no matter how much money they give, for the long-term spiritual good of the church and the community in which they are located. Until that happens we will only be a church that talks about holiness without being a church that is serious about walking in holiness.

I would venture, in reference to the title, that these are churches where sanctification is an event, rather than a lifelong process (and therefore not Wesleyan), and that the object therein would be sanctification as "sinlessness", i.e., not commiting morally evil acts, rather than becoming more like Christ (lifestyle which is positively, actively like Christ).

Moral lifestyle which eschews sin but which is not "more and more of thee, oh Saviour" ultimately becomes legalism and guarding the moral walls of Jericho.

[Todd Erickson]

My observation regarding DS's is that we do a disservice to the Nazarene Church by electing DS's who are pastors, rather than people who are called to be administrators. Because the DS will almost always be a well known pastor, there's a fair likelihood in many cases that they will already be politically involved with the local congregations.

In some cases, this is a non-issue, and they're an incredible man of God, and the district benefits greatly.

In other cases, they're very good at maintaining the status quo. Which is, essentially, what they were elected for, correct?

The system is perfectly designed to produce the results that it is. To get different results, you must change the system.

[Steven Martinez]

In some cases, this is a non-issue, and they're an incredible man of God, and the district benefits greatly.

In other cases, they're very good at maintaining the status quo. Which is, essentially, what they were elected for, correct?

The system is perfectly designed to produce the results that it is. To get different results, you must change the system.

I am not sure if it is the system or the perception of the system. It seems the system is fine, the problem is the desire for the status quo which is what many pastors desire because they do not want a DS who might be able to find fault in their ministry. No system will ever correct that. So it comes down to understanding what it means to be a community and Body which again no system can truly enforce but must be embraced and lived by everyday.

[David Graham]

Not having District Superintendents to worry about (Thank you God!), I try very hard to work with the people that God has given me and to be a "clandestine" agent of change..... i.e. sowing ideas and seeds into the minds of the Church Council Members and "Gate Keepers", so that they can pick up (perhaps) a few of those ideas and run with them. It's a slow way to bring about change, but it works!
(And keeps me out of a lot of trouble too..... especially when they understand that this is my "leadership style" right from the very beginning.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Randy McRoberts]

Since the DS sent this guy to a church on its last legs, the DS most likely considered this guy expendable anyway. If the DS had thought this guy had potential, he would have sent him to a good church. DSes are sometimes wrong, I think, about the quality of their preacher boys.

Perhaps this pastor thought he was called to pastoral ministry but was mistaken. Perhaps this will actually be the best thing that ever happened to him.

Obviously, his gifts are not centered in the arts of putting a Humpty Dumpty church back together again. I pray that his new life will be fulfilling and that his ministry will be far better outside of the pastorate than it ever could be inside.

My prayer could be answered. It was for me.

[William Hunter]

Randy, my friend and I both took on churches that were looking strongly at closing. During our ministries these church have grown and we both have seen many come to Christ and to the church. No, it is not that this friend does not have the gifts and graces of ministry, he has a good track record of ministry. The fault lies with a system that allows dysfuctional Christians to be in leadership of the church and run it with a strangle hold that drives out pastors who refuse to bow to them. Part of the problem is that we have some DS's who also bow to these people who are in power and control and little idea of what true holiness is. What we are seeing is a system failure.

One post in this thread suggested that our system needs to change, or else we keep getting these same results generation after generation in the local church. I have clearly said on NN several times that I believe the weak link in the ministry of the COTN is its district superintendancy. One only has to look at how many times DS's repeatedly let a few run the local church rather than taking a stand and putting a stop to it. That is not anywhere near being true leadership. It is bowing to the status quo which leaves the church stagnant and unable to be about the driving passion of His heart, lost souls.

My friend has proved himself to be an effective, God-called, pastor. The problem lies with people who are power and control types, who know nothing of true holiness, who refuse to even let God have HIS way in the local church. And too many times our DS's just go along with it.

Since the DS sent this guy to a church on its last legs, the DS most likely considered this guy expendable anyway. If the DS had thought this guy had potential, he would have sent him to a good church. DSes are sometimes wrong, I think, about the quality of their preacher boys.

Perhaps this pastor thought he was called to pastoral ministry but was mistaken. Perhaps this will actually be the best thing that ever happened to him.

Obviously, his gifts are not centered in the arts of putting a Humpty Dumpty church back together again. I pray that his new life will be fulfilling and that his ministry will be far better outside of the pastorate than it ever could be inside.

My prayer could be answered. It was for me.

[Randy McRoberts]

You know, William, I think you're right. I am entirely supportive of a system that eliminates DSes altogether. That is the single thing we can do to get costs under control. At the same time, we can eliminate the biggest problem we have in trying to make our churches survive in their communities and thrive, to do their mission.

In no way did I mean to demean your friend.

[William Hunter]

Randy, I did not take your post as an attempt to demean my friend, but rather, a statement needing some more info. to work on. Anyway, thanks for participating here.

You know, William, I think you're right. I am entirely supportive of a system that eliminates DSes altogether. That is the single thing we can do to get costs under control. At the same time, we can eliminate the biggest problem we have in trying to make our churches survive in their communities and thrive, to do their mission.

In no way did I mean to demean your friend.