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Thread: Reformed Nazarenes

  1. #81
    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    Not necessarily.

    I am in "information gathering mode" hence the question about the video. However, anyone interested in these issues should neither cut Manny Silva off nor Brian McLaren. For instance, some of my best friends are atheists. In fact, I listen to everybody. Here's something from an atheist I like and pray for a lot:



    Penn Jillette is STILL an atheist and has made a newer video explaining this.
    Dan,
    I agree that it's good to get all sides of the story. However, I don't think it's useful to try and gain information from someone hellbent on attacking those who disagree. In the theological/church realm, that's people who insist that their version of Christianity is the only true version, or go about calling people "heretic" without accurately presenting facts. In the political realm, it's the pundit who says his opponents are Nazis, or hers are racist. People labeling and insulting their opposition with little or no evidence is a surefire way for me to pay no heed to them.

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    I understand.

    Yet, some things to consider:

    1) When someone has been told repeatedly that they have misunderstood or misrepresented people, to continue to do so while refusing to address the facts in a judicious way suggests malevolent intent.
    I agree wholeheartedly, this has happened far too often and it casts negative aspersions against those who partake. It is wrong and I really wish that those who employ this method could gain enough wisdom to realize how poorly this method serves them as a communication tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    2) When someone has been told by a variety of people that they do not understand a topic, their refusal to investigate and make attempts at understanding and getting the facts straight suggests malicious motives.
    Agreed, although this ties in with your next point to the extent that there have been times when the "variety of people" engage simply as a "make work" effort always questioning yet never answering. To be clear, I have never seen you fail to also answer questions Dennis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    3) To selectively use isolated quotes, references, or actions to proclaim condemnations against people without honestly attempting to place those things in a context or understand the set of related ideas with which they are connected is deceitful.
    Yes this has happened in some instances. Yet there are also instances where the isolated quotes have spoken directly to the problem that they seek to expose. I have spent many painful hours reading the likes of Richard Foster, Brian McClaren and Rob Bell, I'm ready to just accept the isolated quotes and resume reading things that are agreeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    4) Using a biblical rationale for a course of action, and then continuing that course of action even though being told, supported by evidence, that the biblical rationale is mistaken, suggests a commitment to personal opinion that takes priority over the truth.
    The biblical rationale is mistaken? Could you please elaborate. Hermeneutics?

  3. #83
    Senior Member Todd Erickson's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    The biblical rationale is mistaken? Could you please elaborate. Hermeneutics?
    People come to the bible with an opinion that they want to prove, and read the verses/passages that support that opinion, while ignoring or reading out of context the verses that don't. Also known as prooftexting.
    Thanks Mike Fraley, Kent Campbell - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Erickson View Post
    People come to the bible with an opinion that they want to prove, and read the verses/passages that support that opinion, while ignoring or reading out of context the verses that don't. Also known as prooftexting.
    I understand that Todd, really I do. It is impossible for us to see with 100% certainty through this glass darkly. We all have filters of one sort or another. I have seen this employed by both "sides" of this issue, one side claims a plain reading while ignoring context, while the other claims an enlightened understanding when it simply isn't so. I am not trying to paint with a broad brush, these are extremes that I have witnessed from both camps. 2 Kings 10:15 becomes a very important verse indeed.

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    I'm sorry Dan, what did this have to do with my praise for the article about Manny's father? When one quotes from another post, one is usually referring to their writing and I, for one, am a little puzzled.

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    The biblical rationale is mistaken? Could you please elaborate. Hermeneutics?
    Could it be that people tend to forget that what the Bible reports is not necessarily what the Bible recommends...?
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Susan Unger, G R 'Scott' Cundiff - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shea Zellweger View Post
    Dan,
    I agree that it's good to get all sides of the story. However, I don't think it's useful to try and gain information from someone hellbent on attacking those who disagree. In the theological/church realm, that's people who insist that their version of Christianity is the only true version, or go about calling people "heretic" without accurately presenting facts. In the political realm, it's the pundit who says his opponents are Nazis, or hers are racist. People labeling and insulting their opposition with little or no evidence is a surefire way for me to pay no heed to them.
    I have learned by experience that it is foolish to stop listening, especially to people who disagree with you. When contending for the faith, especially against people in authority, one should probably take heed to a Biblical example. When Christians argue, which they should, there is a Biblical example, especially when arguing with people in legitimate authority. If one has never heard of this example, he should be excused. The dispute should continue until the truth wins. Here is the example:

    Speaking Evil of Dignities? "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
    Jude 1:8,9

    Even this statement begs the question: What is a "railing accusation"? If the Concerned Nazarenes / Emergent Pastors are not making "railing accusations," but are in a frank dispute / discussion, the conversation is Biblically okay. For me, I listen regardless of the attitude of the other party. Honesty is ALWAYS an issue. Even if I believe the other person is blatantly lying to me, I listen. Mainly because ... I could be wrong.

    Coincidentally, if you are a disciple of Brian McLaren, it appears to me that the book of Jude is the Lord rebuking Brian and his disciples. I seem to be under the impression that Brian McLaren and his disciples might be the subject of the Book of Jude. I am not necessarily suggesting that Emergent Pastors repent because I know that there are a lot of "flavors" of Emergent Church. I won't "rail against" Brian McLaren and his disciples. All I need do is point to Jude. Then it's the problem of the Holy Spirit.

    I'm sure most of you have read the letter endorsed by all six generals regarding the "Emergent" and "Emerging" churches. If not, you might be interested so find a copy. I'm talking about the letter posted a few days ago to all District Superintendents that contains the following paragraph:

    "“Sadly some in the Emergent Church have messed with the message. They have started down the road of compromise, eliminating the ‘useless baggage’ of specific scripturally based religious convictions.
    Such misguided attempts to eliminate critical theological content may lighten the load of some churches. It may even create a temporary euphoria of false freedom. In the end, however, these choices will prove to be liabilities."

    Now let the "railing" against me begin. I ain't no "dignity."
    Thanks - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    I'm sure most of you have read the letter endorsed by all six generals regarding the "Emergent" and "Emerging" churches. If not, you might be interested so find a copy. I'm talking about the letter posted a few days ago to all District Superintendents that contains the following paragraph:

    "“Sadly some in the Emergent Church have messed with the message. They have started down the road of compromise, eliminating the ‘useless baggage’ of specific scripturally based religious convictions.
    Such misguided attempts to eliminate critical theological content may lighten the load of some churches. It may even create a temporary euphoria of false freedom. In the end, however, these choices will prove to be liabilities."
    I'd love a link to that letter. I haven't seen it yet. (I'm also not a DS, which may explain why...)

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Erickson View Post
    People come to the bible with an opinion that they want to prove, and read the verses/passages that support that opinion, while ignoring or reading out of context the verses that don't. Also known as prooftexting.
    Imho, the Bible is a supernatural book inspired by God. Many people come to the Bible for guidance especially in areas where they are at a loss. Not everybody is out to prove a point. I love science and I love the Bible. I am constantly amazed at how accurate the Bible is in the area of technology. Who would have thought 2,000 years ago when scripture said something would happen in Israel and people from every nation and tribe on earth would see it that here, in 2010, every nation and tribe on earth would have access to a computer, tv or cell phone upon which they could watch what was happening in Israel?
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Thanks for the comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    The biblical rationale is mistaken? Could you please elaborate. Hermeneutics?
    No, it is not just hermeneutics or differences in interpretation. Sometimes it is simply a false claim that can be demonstrated to be so. One example (unfortunately the interchange is now gone although I have my response archived):

    Manny claimed that he has a biblical responsibility and mandate to judge other people, which provides him justification for his attacks, his slander, and his harsh rhetoric. Since I don't think he reads Greek, he depended almost exclusively on an article by Yomi Adegboye, "Judge Not?" , duplicated on Manny's blog. I can find nothing on the credentials or qualifications of Yomi Adegboye beyond his website, which is a "contend for the Faith" apologetics/discernment site. He appears to be African (Nigeria?) and views the Church as almost totally apostate.

    In this article, Mr. Adegboye tries to make the argument that Christians are called to judge other Christians, even to using harsh words. He challenges Jesus' teaching in Matt 7:1-5 and says, "He was not commanding us not to judge." He then proceeds to collect together a whole range of texts that he offers as proof of his position, without doing any exegetical or contextual work on the passages. He also throws in Greek words trying to show how the Greek supports his position. He supplements that by topical interpretation of other passages. He takes any biblical passage that he thinks relates to the topic and applies it to his own version of what the Christian Faith ought to look like, claiming that it is only the truth. It is easy to see why Manny likes that approach since that is basically what he has been doing.

    I responded to Manny with a detailed examination of the primary Greek words used in the New Testament for judging, and pointed out that none of them mean what they are claiming they mean. There are significant differences in the ranges of meaning of the Greek words that range from "judge" (which is what God does, therefore human beings are not to do) to judicious evaluation and examination, which is considerably different than what either Manny or Tim Wirth are doing. I pointed out that neither the Greek words nor the passages as a whole would support the claims that either Mr. Adegboye or Manny are making.

    Manny never responded to that set of evidence, never engaged the possibility that he had used resources that were mistaken, still has the article "Judge Not?" on his blog, and still attacks other Christians using its "biblical" rationale.

    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.

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    Senior Member Todd Erickson's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    I understand that Todd, really I do. It is impossible for us to see with 100% certainty through this glass darkly. We all have filters of one sort or another. I have seen this employed by both "sides" of this issue, one side claims a plain reading while ignoring context, while the other claims an enlightened understanding when it simply isn't so. I am not trying to paint with a broad brush, these are extremes that I have witnessed from both camps. 2 Kings 10:15 becomes a very important verse indeed.
    Passage 2 Kings 10:15:
    15When Jehu left there, he met Jehonadab son of Rechab coming to meet him. He saluted him and said to him, Is your heart right, as my heart is with yours? Jehonadab answered, It is. [Jehu said] If it is, give me your hand. He gave him his hand, and Jehu took him up into the chariot.

    Er...okay...
    Thanks David Graham, Hans Deventer - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Todd Erickson's Avatar

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    Coincidentally, if you are a disciple of Brian McLaren, it appears to me that the book of Jude is the Lord rebuking Brian and his disciples. I seem to be under the impression that Brian McLaren and his disciples might be the subject of the Book of Jude. I am not necessarily suggesting that Emergent Pastors repent because I know that there are a lot of "flavors" of Emergent Church. I won't "rail against" Brian McLaren and his disciples. All I need do is point to Jude. Then it's the problem of the Holy Spirit.
    Er...1. What makes you think that McLaren has disciples? If my pastor says something, and I agree with him, does that make me my pastor's disciple? 2. In what way is Jude specifically rebuking McLaren? This is not a clear statement at all on your part.


    I'm sure most of you have read the letter endorsed by all six generals regarding the "Emergent" and "Emerging" churches. If not, you might be interested so find a copy. I'm talking about the letter posted a few days ago to all District Superintendents that contains the following paragraph:

    "“Sadly some in the Emergent Church have messed with the message. They have started down the road of compromise, eliminating the ‘useless baggage’ of specific scripturally based religious convictions.
    Such misguided attempts to eliminate critical theological content may lighten the load of some churches. It may even create a temporary euphoria of false freedom. In the end, however, these choices will prove to be liabilities."
    Which is a very vague statement, and just as applicable to many who would call themselves Nazarenes, or Baptists, or any other stripe of believer.

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Erickson View Post
    Passage 2 Kings 10:15:
    15When Jehu left there, he met Jehonadab son of Rechab coming to meet him. He saluted him and said to him, Is your heart right, as my heart is with yours? Jehonadab answered, It is. [Jehu said] If it is, give me your hand. He gave him his hand, and Jehu took him up into the chariot.

    Er...okay...
    This is the text for Wesley's sermon "On a Catholic Spirit."

    The irony is that this passage and Wesley's sermon seemed to have totally escaped most of the "concerned Nazarenes" folks.

    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.
    Thanks Kent Campbell, Todd Erickson, David Troxler - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Todd Erickson's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    This is the text for Wesley's sermon "On a Catholic Spirit."

    The irony is that this passage and Wesley's sermon seemed to have totally escaped most of the "concerned Nazarenes" folks.

    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.
    Wow, that's an awesome sermon. Have you done translations on all of Wesley's sermons?
    Thanks Shea Zellweger - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Erickson View Post
    Wow, that's an awesome sermon. Have you done translations on all of Wesley's sermons?
    Sorry Todd, i should have provided a link. It is an incredible sermon indeed, one of my favorites.
    Thanks Benjamin Burch - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    Thanks for the comments.



    No, it is not just hermeneutics or differences in interpretation. Sometimes it is simply a false claim that can be demonstrated to be so. One example (unfortunately the interchange is now gone although I have my response archived):

    Manny claimed that he has a biblical responsibility and mandate to judge other people, which provides him justification for his attacks, his slander, and his harsh rhetoric. Since I don't think he reads Greek, he depended almost exclusively on an article by Yomi Adegboye, "Judge Not?" , duplicated on Manny's blog. I can find nothing on the credentials or qualifications of Yomi Adegboye beyond his website, which is a "contend for the Faith" apologetics/discernment site. He appears to be African (Nigeria?) and views the Church as almost totally apostate.

    In this article, Mr. Adegboye tries to make the argument that Christians are called to judge other Christians, even to using harsh words. He challenges Jesus' teaching in Matt 7:1-5 and says, "He was not commanding us not to judge." He then proceeds to collect together a whole range of texts that he offers as proof of his position, without doing any exegetical or contextual work on the passages. He also throws in Greek words trying to show how the Greek supports his position. He supplements that by topical interpretation of other passages. He takes any biblical passage that he thinks relates to the topic and applies it to his own version of what the Christian Faith ought to look like, claiming that it is only the truth. It is easy to see why Manny likes that approach since that is basically what he has been doing.

    I responded to Manny with a detailed examination of the primary Greek words used in the New Testament for judging, and pointed out that none of them mean what they are claiming they mean. There are significant differences in the ranges of meaning of the Greek words that range from "judge" (which is what God does, therefore human beings are not to do) to judicious evaluation and examination, which is considerably different than what either Manny or Tim Wirth are doing. I pointed out that neither the Greek words nor the passages as a whole would support the claims that either Mr. Adegboye or Manny are making.

    Manny never responded to that set of evidence, never engaged the possibility that he had used resources that were mistaken, still has the article "Judge Not?" on his blog, and still attacks other Christians using its "biblical" rationale.

    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.
    Thanks Dennis. I haven't read that particular piece nor your response, so I cannot comment on content. I do agree with your rationale, if I read you correctly you responded to a particular set of claims with detail indicating that scripture does not agree with these claims.
    Thanks Benjamin Burch - "thanks" for this post

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    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    I have learned by experience that it is foolish to stop listening, especially to people who disagree with you.
    True, but it depends how. Our Lord, we are told, was full of grace and truth (John 1). I don't believe the two can be separated. So if I see totally graceless people, my only conclusion can be that the truth can't be there either. And the same goes for me. If people find no grace in what I say and do, don't listen to me. The world is already filled with voices that have nothing to do with truth, don't add to them!

    Secondly, if you talk about Christians disagreeing, before that can happen we would first have to establish that we're actually Christians who are disagreeing. If people set up standards of their own and call everyone who does not meet them a heretic, then at least from their point of view, I am no Christian and hence we're not talking about a disagreement between Christians. I have no problem seeing them as misguided Christians, and pray that the Lord may have mercy on them for what they are doing. But from their point of view, we do not have sufficient common ground to discuss as Christians. Hence, there is nothing I could say that might make them change their minds. However, since I adhere to the ecumenical creeds of the church, I am doctrinally spoken a Christian according to the church of all ages. But why should I listen to people who do not want to align with that? There is so much useless information in this world, I can't read all of it.

    "What is a "railing accusation"? Check Grant Swank's blogs and all the numerous places where he accused me of heaven knows what, and you'll get a pretty good idea.

    As to Brian McLaren, I didn't know he had any disciples, but I may have missed the latest developments. For all I know, he's just a fellow disciple of Jesus.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

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    Senior Member Gary Creely's Avatar

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    I am in "information gathering mode" hence the question about the video. However, anyone interested in these issues should neither cut Manny Silva off nor Brian McLaren. For instance, some of my best friends are atheists. In fact, I listen to everybody. Here's something from an atheist I like and pray for a lot:
    A couple things to keep in mind as you search for your information.

    Consider the source. You have cited some information that is spun by folk who use some nasty tactics. Even if I agreed with there positions, some of their behavior is despicable.

    Naznet is made up of a pretty diverse cross section of the denomination. Within that it tends to be a pretty clergy heavy group, and often other denominational leadership is represented here as well. This is the group that day-in and day out (clergy) do their best for the kingdom as a profession. As part of that you will find a body of people who represent a great deal of Nazarene theological higher education. Many of the CN style critics are alarmed because they have realized some of what they have learned in Sunday School is not what the church actually believes, and have launched on a personal crusade.

    I have seen many good people get hurt because of this misguided criticism.


    My own opinion on many of the emergent leaders is many of them have some very useful points of dialog, others hold positions on issues that I would not agree with, and run counter to historical Nazarene positions. That could be said of church growth people, seeker sensitive people, Jesus is a republican people, Promise keepers people, and the list goes on and on.

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Creely View Post
    My own opinion on many of the emergent leaders is many of them have some very useful points of dialog, others hold positions on issues that I would not agree with, and run counter to historical Nazarene positions. That could be said of church growth people, seeker sensitive people, Jesus is a republican people, Promise keepers people, and the list goes on and on.
    And it has always been so. That is why Jesus told us not to judge others, Paul warned us about judging the servant of another, and Wesley urged us to exhibit the love of God in a catholic spirit. As Wesley put it,
    . . ."To be ignorant of many things, and to mistake in some, is the necessary condition of humanity." This, therefore, he understands, applies to himself as well. He knows, generally, that he himself is mistaken; although in what particular opinions he is mistaken, he does not, perhaps he cannot, know.
    I say "perhaps he cannot know;" for who can tell how far invincible ignorance may extend? Or, which amounts to the same thing, invincible prejudice, which is often so fixed in tender minds, that it is afterwards impossible to tear up what has taken so deep a root. And who can say, unless he knew every circumstance attending it, how far any mistake is culpable, seeing all guilt must suppose some concurrence of the will. Only He who can judge and search the heart can know.

    Every wise man, therefore, will allow others the same liberty of thinking that he desires they should allow him, and will no more insist on their embracing his opinions than he would have them to insist on his embracing theirs. He is patient with those who differ from him, and only asks him with whom he desires to unite in love that single question: "Is your heart right, as my heart is with your heart?" On A Catholic Spirit
    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.

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    Senior Member Mike Fraley's Avatar

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    I have learned by experience that it is foolish to stop listening, especially to people who disagree with you. When contending for the faith, especially against people in authority, one should probably take heed to a Biblical example. When Christians argue, which they should, there is a Biblical example, especially when arguing with people in legitimate authority. If one has never heard of this example, he should be excused. The dispute should continue until the truth wins.
    While I agree with what you say here, and I think the vast majority of individuals on the board would as well, I think we should take Shae's words more in the context in which they appear to have been intended. In my conversations with Shae, it appears to me that he has never stopped reading the opinion of those with whom he disagrees. If I read his posts correctly, then he is simply saying that if you are doing the initial phases of information gathering, it is probably best not to start with the more radical ends of the issue (those that are bent on using isolated quotes, proof texts, and alleged slander) and take those words as truth.

    I think the Biblical example is all that anyone here has asked for. If you come before us and declare that all sides should be welcome as long as they behave in a civil fashion (and that only if they cannot behave in a Christlike fashion), then you'll probably find a lot of nods of agreement. I doubt you'll have anyone railing against you.

    I'm not going to claim that everyone follows the model you call for. All are welcome here so long as they are moderately civil. But the general request has been that everyone take notice of those that address them directly, and try to answer posed questions when possible. In essence, the general culture of this board is to listen whether we agree or not, and try to behave like decent people.

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    At what point does misrepresentation become outright lying?

    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.

    The internet and these forums are so kewl, but kewler and higher, and greater will be our wonder our vict'ry when Jesus we see. How many of us will say "Jesus, was Manny right or were the others right? Oh, we'll also see John Wesley and we can ask "Did the way we discussed this issue conform to what you meant in that wonderful sermon about "a catholic spirit."

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    The internet and these forums are so kewl, but kewler and higher, and greater will be our wonder our vict'ry when Jesus we see. How many of us will say "Jesus, was Manny right or were the others right? Oh, we'll also see John Wesley and we can ask "Did the way we discussed this issue conform to what you meant in that wonderful sermon about "a catholic spirit."
    Of course!

    But that is not the issue. We are not there yet. In the meantime we are called to live in the world as people who love God and love one another. That is our primary mandate from Jesus. What the concerned Nazarenes are doing, which includes both Manny Silva and Tim Wirth as well as others, falls far short of that by almost any standard of Christian decency.

    It is not a matter of discussing things according to Wesley's sermon, especially since Manny and the others will not discuss much of anything (I have an archive of post to demonstrate that). It is a matter of living out Christianity according to that catholic spirit, which at the very least represents the ethical teachings of Jesus.

    What we do has eternal consequences, according to Jesus:
    Matthew 18:6 "If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea. 18:7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to the one by whom the stumbling block comes!
    So either what Jesus says matters or it doesn’t. If it doesn't, then none of it matters anyway. Of course, Manny and the Concerned Nazarenes crowd assume that they are the righteous ones who are trying to prevent others from stumbling, and everyone who does not agree with them are the cause of stumbling. But what if they are wrong? They have never allowed that possibility (which is what Wesley pointed out in the sermon).

    If Manny and the concerned Nazarene folks are right, then Christianity is something far different than Wesley and most of the holiness tradition has thought. If they are wrong, then Matthew 18:6-7 applies to those folks since they are violating the very essence of what Jesus taught, which lies at the heart of the Christian Faith.

    So we cannot just dismiss it all as trivial and insignificant, as if it were "you say potato and I say potahto." It is far more important to the Church and the Kingdom than that.

    Grace and Peace,

    Dennis B.

  23. #103
    Senior Member David Gerber's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    How many of us will say "Jesus, was Manny right or were the others right?
    If that is one of my questions when I see Jesus, someone shoot me.
    Dave Gerber
    "We seriously discuss theology. The heavens laugh."
    Skin Ministries

  24. #104
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Gerber View Post
    If that is one of my questions when I see Jesus, someone shoot me.
    And just where would they get a gun?

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    And just where would they get a gun?
    From an NRA attorney? ;-)

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    From an NRA attorney? ;-)
    Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about going to heaven. What's an attorney doing there?
    Thanks David Gerber - "thanks" for this post

  27. #107
    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Fraley View Post
    While I agree with what you say here, and I think the vast majority of individuals on the board would as well, I think we should take Shae's words more in the context in which they appear to have been intended. In my conversations with Shae, it appears to me that he has never stopped reading the opinion of those with whom he disagrees. If I read his posts correctly, then he is simply saying that if you are doing the initial phases of information gathering, it is probably best not to start with the more radical ends of the issue (those that are bent on using isolated quotes, proof texts, and alleged slander) and take those words as truth.
    Thank you, Mike. Sorry I haven't contributed a lot after entering into this conversation. I won't be on NN much the next few days as we make our journey North. However, yes, Mike is right about the tenor of my post. If you were looking to find out whether you should be a conservative or a liberal, I wouldn't start with Glenn Beck, and neither would I start with Saul Alinsky. The same is the case here- if you're genuinely looking to get a balanced perspective, don't start with the people that are crying "heresy," as theirs is clearly an all-or-nothing approach. I have stayed abreast of the activities of several individuals who have referred to me in less-than-flattering terms, because I don't want to be guilty of doing to them what they've done to folks like Brian McLaren. In my opinion, the opinions of such individuals are not valid. That does not mean I don't stay aware of their opinions, but they are not the valid critiques I'll be passing along to others when it comes to the Emergent Church.
    Thanks Jim Abrams, Dennis M. Scott, Todd Erickson - "thanks" for this post

  28. #108
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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about going to heaven. What's an attorney doing there?
    I am reminded that God is a God of grace..... ;-)
    Thanks Susan Unger - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bourland View Post
    I am reminded that God is a God of grace..... ;-)
    But those lawyers ... they don't deserve grace!

  30. #110
    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    But those lawyers ... they don't deserve grace!
    FYI, one of "those lawyers" owns NazNet
    Thanks Todd Erickson - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Shea Zellweger View Post
    FYI, one of "those lawyers" owns NazNet
    I suppose she knows more lawyer jokes than I do. I guess if the Scythians can get into heaven, so can a lawyer or two.
    Last edited by Dan Ross; May 9th, 2010 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Needed amplification

  32. #112
    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    I suppose she knows more lawyer jokes than I do. I guess if the Scythians can get into heaven, so can a lawyer or two.
    ... he.

  33. #113
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    The internet and these forums are so kewl, but kewler and higher, and greater will be our wonder our vict'ry when Jesus we see. How many of us will say "Jesus, was Manny right or were the others right?
    I just pray he won't (at last) hear: "Saul, Saul, why did you persecute me?"
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
    Thanks James Diggs - "thanks" for this post

  34. #114
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ross View Post
    But those lawyers ... they don't deserve grace!
    For those who don't know Dan is a lawyer. Always good to laugh at ourselves.

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    And just where would they get a gun?
    Charlton Heston will have all the guns you'll need, and we know he'll be there, I mean he gave us the Ten Commandments after all!

    John

  36. #116
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Just thought you guys might like to know that our conversation here was brought up by Tim in the comments on Manny's blog today. Just FYI.

    Please do not go over there and try to fill his comments with responses to Tim's comment! If you choose to respond to Manny's blog post, stay on-topic and respectful. Please.

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    For those who don't know Dan is a lawyer. Always good to laugh at ourselves.
    Now we're gettin' somewhere. If you can be wrong about this, what else can you be wrong about?

  38. #118
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Reformed Nazarenes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    Just thought you guys might like to know that our conversation here was brought up by Tim in the comments on Manny's blog today. Just FYI.

    Please do not go over there and try to fill his comments with responses to Tim's comment! If you choose to respond to Manny's blog post, stay on-topic and respectful. Please.
    Don't worry, Rich. I'll act as if you never wrote this post.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Bratcher View Post
    And it has always been so. That is why Jesus told us not to judge others,
    Hi Dennis,

    Since I don’t have the “theological creds” that you and others think I should have in order to go up against those of you who are “more learned”, I won’t go into further debate with you. Apparently Yomi Adegboye is not smart enough for you as well, judging (no pun intended) by your condescending opinion of his "creds" as well in writing on the topic of judging.

    Let me instead point you to a person who at least has the same or close to the same credentials as you and other professors at our Nazarene universities. Although he is a Baptist, his work is included in at least one Nazarene university’s theology program, and perhaps more. His name is Voddie Baucham, and below is a link to a sermon he preached called “Beware False Prophets”. In the sermon, he thoroughly makes the biblical case that we SHOULD judge, as opposed to what I believe is your erroneous insistence that we should not judge.

    If you have the time, please listen to it- and I recommend it to everyone here- and then if you have additional time, feel free to critique it, using your many years of biblical knowledge, and perhaps explain why he might be wrong in his teaching that we ARE to judge, and there is no avoiding it. Besides, you do it all the time when you talk about me, don’t you? You just showed that in your comments here. So, is it okay to judge, or not?

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...D=112091641129

    Just a thought: when you paint me as someone who thinks he is “the righteous one”, or some other kind of caricature, you are painting many others with the same brush- including long time pastors and others who are far more learned than me in the scriptures. However, it’s your right to do that, however, comments like that- and worse- don’t really bother me anymore.

  40. #120
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Excellent Article about Ilidio Silva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Manny Silva View Post
    Just a thought: when you paint me as someone who thinks he is “the righteous one”, or some other kind of caricature, you are painting many others with the same brush- including long time pastors and others who are far more learned than me in the scriptures. However, it’s your right to do that, however, comments like that- and worse- don’t really bother me anymore.
    Manny, the discussion here is mainly internal. I don't think any human being can change the point of view of you and your friends, so if that were the goal, it would be a total waste of time. I at least am way beyond that point of hope. Just forget the discussion about credentials. It doesn't matter in this discussion.

    Perhaps out Lord can, who knows. But when I look at church history, that appears not to be His main area of concern. He usually let us burn one another at the stake, Soli Deo Gloria of course.

    The only hope I can see is that He might poor out His perfect love that casts out all fear. He still does that. So that's what I am praying for.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
    Thanks Todd Erickson, Kent Campbell, James Diggs - "thanks" for this post

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