Reformed Nazarenes

[James Diggs]

Manny,

I think it depends whether you mean "discernment" or "condemnation" when you say "judge". You have shown that you really don't care about biblical discernment when it comes to what is true, or what is true when it it comes to what others really have said. You twist both scripture and what others say so you can judge (condemn) others no matter what.

I and others have shown you scripture that you just ignore, as well ignoring the context when pointed out of the many you slander by twisting their quotes. It seems to me that you don't really care about any "truth" but your own. Such is my discernment of you based on years of observation and interaction; much of which is public record for others to observe as well. I am open to being wrong.

However, we have not condemned you, we have not called for your removal from the church or claimed that you are not a follower of the "real" Jesus. We'll leave that for God to decide.

You say you have been "judged" and "painted" unjustly by people here, yet people here have loved you and do love you. You are not banned or censored like I and others are when we try to engage you in your spaces (even though you talk about us there) and you are welcome to share and discuss and fellowship here. We may have strong disagreement, and many Nazneters do, but you are not condemned- you are welcome.

If you really care about "truth" I invite you to join us here in discussion rather just having insular discussion in your facebook group or blog where you make sure that everyone agrees with you. You have set up an environment for yourself where you listen only to those who tickle your ears. Here no one holds a monopoly on the truth and you will be sometimes challenged and sometimes affirmed, as we all seek to live in the truth of Jesus Christ together. At least stop throwing rocks at us from the outside. You only show up here to occasionally defend yourself from our strong objection of being attacked by you.

By the way, you sent me an email saying I mischaracterized you here on the first page of this thread. I responded by email putting what I said about you in bullet points and I told you that if you would tell me which one of the things I said about you wasn't true I would post a retraction of my statement here. I have not heard from you yet about anything specific I have said incorrectly about you, but the offer still stands.

[Craig Laughlin]

Now we're gettin' somewhere. If you can be wrong about this, what else can you be wrong about?

Hey Dan, sorry if I am miss informed. I thought for sure I read on your Facebook profile that you are a law school graduate. I went back to look and did not see it there. My apologizes! My capacity to be wrong never ceases to amaze me.

FYI - I am the pastor at Marysville.

[Jason McPherson]

Manny,

I think it depends whether you mean "discernment" or "condemnation" when you say "judge". You have shown that you really don't care about biblical discernment when it comes to what is true, or what is true when it it comes to what others really have said. You twist both scripture and what others say so you can judge (condemn) others no matter what.

I and others have shown you scripture that you just ignore, as well ignoring the context when pointed out of the many you slander by twisting their quotes. It seems to me that you don't really care about any "truth" but your own. Such is my discernment of you based on years of observation and interaction; much of which is public record for others to observe as well. I am open to being wrong.

However, we have not condemned you, we have not called for your removal from the church or claimed that you are not a follower of the "real" Jesus. We'll leave that for God to decide.

You say you have been "judged" and "painted" unjustly by people here, yet people here have loved you and do love you. You are not banned or censored like I and others are when we try to engage you in your spaces (even though you talk about us there) and you are welcome to share and discuss and fellowship here. We may have strong disagreement, and many Nazneters do, but you are not condemned- you are welcome.

If you really care about "truth" I invite you to join us here in discussion rather just having insular discussion in your facebook group or blog where you make sure that everyone agrees with you. You have set up an environment for yourself where you listen only to those who tickle your ears. Here no one holds a monopoly on the truth and you will be sometimes challenged and sometimes affirmed, as we all seek to live in the truth of Jesus Christ together. At least stop throwing rocks at us from the outside. You only show up here to occasionally defend yourself from our strong objection of being attacked by you.

By the way, you sent me an email saying I mischaracterized you here on the first page of this thread. I responded by email putting what I said about you in bullet points and I told you that if you would tell me which one of the things I said about you wasn't true I would post a retraction of my statement here. I have not heard from you yet about anything specific I have said incorrectly about you, but the offer still stands.

While I have not commented on this thread, I appreciate your response to Manny. It is obvious to me that despite the disagreements and history between the two of you that you still have a strong desire to maintain relationship with him... something that the Church has failed to do in the last several hundred years (unity in the midst of disagreement).

I am currently struggling with a woman in our congregation who has written written letters and emails to people in my congregation about my wife and I and how people need to beware of what we are teaching and encouraging. Recently, she became upset that I challenged our teens to love the homosexuals at their school. That night, she immediately 'unfriended' my wife and I on facebook and posted a message about how God gave her the strength to stay quiet in the midst of false teaching.

My temptation is to say mean things to her... To tell her how off she is. I am struggling with what it looks like to love someone who has repeatedly bashed my wife and I.

My apologies if this strayed too far from the thread topic.

[Rich Schmidt]

While I have not commented on this thread, I appreciate your response to Manny. It is obvious to me that despite the disagreements and history between the two of you that you still have a strong desire to maintain relationship with him... something that the Church has failed to do in the last several hundred years (unity in the midst of disagreement).

I am currently struggling with a woman in our congregation who has written written letters and emails to people in my congregation about my wife and I and how people need to beware of what we are teaching and encouraging. Recently, she became upset that I challenged our teens to love the homosexuals at their school. That night, she immediately 'unfriended' my wife and I on facebook and posted a message about how God gave her the strength to stay quiet in the midst of false teaching.

My temptation is to say mean things to her... To tell her how off she is. I am struggling with what it looks like to love someone who has repeatedly bashed my wife and I.

My apologies if this strayed too far from the thread topic.

I don't think you're off-topic at all, Jason. As a fellow pastor, my heart goes out to you. My wife and I haven't faced your exact situation, but we've certainly known the struggle of loving those who don't love you back. I pray that God will give you wisdom to know how to continue to love this woman who is causing you such grief.

You piqued my curiosity a bit when you said that she's telling people to beware of what you're teaching and encouraging. Besides showing love to homosexuals, what sorts of things are you teaching that this woman takes issue with?

[David Pettigrew]

While I have not commented on this thread, I appreciate your response to Manny. It is obvious to me that despite the disagreements and history between the two of you that you still have a strong desire to maintain relationship with him... something that the Church has failed to do in the last several hundred years (unity in the midst of disagreement).

I am currently struggling with a woman in our congregation who has written written letters and emails to people in my congregation about my wife and I and how people need to beware of what we are teaching and encouraging. Recently, she became upset that I challenged our teens to love the homosexuals at their school. That night, she immediately 'unfriended' my wife and I on facebook and posted a message about how God gave her the strength to stay quiet in the midst of false teaching.

My temptation is to say mean things to her... To tell her how off she is. I am struggling with what it looks like to love someone who has repeatedly bashed my wife and I.

My apologies if this strayed too far from the thread topic.

Jason, there is nothing more difficult in the church than loving someone who thinks you are out of God's will and does everything possible to let others know about it. I had a struggle with this some time ago, and the only way I got any peace was to go stand in the sanctuary at the place they normally sat, and pray for them until I loved them. I'm not telling you to do that, but it helped me not say and do things that I would never have been able to take back, and the relationship was redeemed.

[Cam Pence]

Jason, there is nothing more difficult in the church than loving someone who thinks you are out of God's will and does everything possible to let others know about it. I had a struggle with this some time ago, and the only way I got any peace was to go stand in the sanctuary at the place they normally sat, and pray for them until I loved them. I'm not telling you to do that, but it helped me not say and do things that I would never have been able to take back, and the relationship was redeemed.

i'm still not convinced it is the wrong move to get the ds involved and tell her to "shape up or ship out" so to speak. hate like that in the church should be addressed and squashed.

[Cam Pence]

and i just realized after posting that that is not always the easiest thing to do. forgive me for way oversimplifying the situation. praying for you man.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Since I don’t have the “theological creds” that you and others think I should have in order to go up against those of you who are “more learned”, I won’t go into further debate with you. Apparently Yomi Adegboye is not smart enough for you as well, judging (no pun intended) by your condescending opinion of his "creds" as well in writing on the topic of judging.

Playing ignorant just won’t cut it anymore. Manny. Claiming to have discernment and then trying to play the "I can't debate with you big boys" card is dishonest.

And "further debate" is not true. You have never entered into a discussion since you have been on NazNet other than to do hit and run posts, using the excuse that you don't have time to spend discussing these things (although you seem to have plenty of time to write attacks against other Christians).

The plain and simple fact is that I have enough experience in biblical languages to know when someone does not understand them. It is not a matter of education; it is a matter of knowing what you are talking about. And Yomi Adegboye does not.

I gave no condescending opinions of his education. I simply stated that I could find nothing about them. Manny, it is about time you stopped reading things into what other people say in order to attack them. It's about time for you to be honest. You have not been to this point. If you really believe the Bible in the way you say you do, that dishonesty has consequences from the One who really does judge others.

Let me instead point you to a person who at least has the same or close to the same credentials as you and other professors at our Nazarene universities. Although he is a Baptist, his work is included in at least one Nazarene university’s theology program, and perhaps more. His name is Voddie Baucham, and below is a link to a sermon he preached called “Beware False Prophets”. In the sermon, he thoroughly makes the biblical case that we SHOULD judge, as opposed to what I believe is your erroneous insistence that we should not judge.

I am wondering when you are going to actually do some investigation that goes beyond accumulating resources that support your own opinions. And I wonder when you are going to stop using Reformed and Baptist people to try to argue against Wesleyans. Maybe you should just be honest enough to change your moniker to "Reformed Reformed."

I have no intention of getting into a debate with one of your resources. If you are making the accusations and committing slander against others, you should at least have the courage to stand and respond in defense of what you have said rather than always running away, while throwing other people at us to do your defending. Either support and defend what you say, respond to those who challenge you, or stop. It’s that simple.

If you have the time, please listen to it- and I recommend it to everyone here- and then if you have additional time, feel free to critique it, using your many years of biblical knowledge, and perhaps explain why he might be wrong in his teaching that we ARE to judge, and there is no avoiding it. Besides, you do it all the time when you talk about me, don’t you? You just showed that in your comments here. So, is it okay to judge, or not?

Have you actually read what I wrote on judging?

I have said that what you and Tim are doing is sinful, according to everything I read in Scripture. It is not the fact that you disagree with people, or even the content of the disagreement, but the feckless manner in which you attack others with slander, false accusations, and guilt by association, as well as refusal to deal with facts, an obstinate refusal to investigate beyond personal opinions, distortion of what people say, and a reckless and aggressive disregard for the truth. I'll stand by that. And yes, that includes anyone else who is committing the same kind of malicious attacks that violate Jesus' primary command of loving one another.

Finally, though, it is not my call. I really do believe Paul:

Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

Jeremiah warned the people of their sin for nearly 40 years, and few believed him or responded. Like the case of Hananiah, Jeremiah simply told them the truth and walked away when they refused to listen.

Manny, I have told you and Tim the truth. Whether you are willing to listen is your responsibility.

Jeremiah was vindicated (in tears) when the consequences came.

8:21 For the hurt of my poor people I am hurt, I mourn, and dismay has taken hold of me. 8:22 Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then has the health of my poor people not been restored? 9:1 O that my head were a spring of water, and my eyes a fountain of tears, so that I might weep day and night for the slain of my poor people!

No one will gloat when your consequences come; there will only be tears. But you cannot say you were not warned. My deepest prayer for you is the prayer of Elisha (2 Kng 6:17):

O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.

Prayers and blessings, and tears

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Jason McPherson]

I don't think you're off-topic at all, Jason. As a fellow pastor, my heart goes out to you. My wife and I haven't faced your exact situation, but we've certainly known the struggle of loving those who don't love you back. I pray that God will give you wisdom to know how to continue to love this woman who is causing you such grief.

You piqued my curiosity a bit when you said that she's telling people to beware of what you're teaching and encouraging. Besides showing love to homosexuals, what sorts of things are you teaching that this woman takes issue with?

Here are a couple... A few years back, my wife and this woman were involved in a conversation. During the conversation this woman stated that Barack Obama was 'obviously not a true Christian.' My wife stated that he has openly confessed to being a Christian and that it is not our job to judge whether he is truly a believer or not. This resulted in an 8 page (single space) letter accusing my wife of not being an informed Christian if she could make a statement like that. She went on to say she didn't know if she wanted her son to come to church anymore if he was going to hear false teachings like this.

Throughout the last couple years she has called me several times to tell me I should not end the teen small group with open ended questions to think about because "they might not know what the correct answer is." I try to get my teens to truly wrestle and ponder difficult questions as oppose to the traditional 'spoon-fed' model of teaching. She also tells me regularly that I don't teach on the book of Revelation enough and I need to preach with more of an urgency in regards to the end times.

I could go on... but I am struggling with showing grace to her.

[Dan Ross]

Hey Dan, sorry if I am miss informed. I thought for sure I read on your Facebook profile that you are a law school graduate. I went back to look and did not see it there. My apologizes! My capacity to be wrong never ceases to amaze me.

FYI - I am the pastor at Marysville.

It all depends on what the meaning of the word is is.

OWIEEE!! That hurt!

(I've often wondered if I could work that sentence into a conversation without hurting myself. I can't.)

[Craig Laughlin]

It all depends on what the meaning of the word is is.

OWIEEE!! That hurt!

(I've often wondered if I could work that sentence into a conversation without hurting myself. I can't.)

Okay I'm a little confused. Does this mean I was wrong because I missed a nuance between being a law school graduate and a lawyer? (I'm assuming something along the lines of the difference between a medical school graduate and being a licensed physician?)

I don't mind being corrected and in fact appreciate it but your response to my mistake seems a bit sharp if what I missed was a relatively small distinction. (Or maybe I missed the humor part of the last sentence)

Now we're gettin' somewhere. If you can be wrong about this, what else can you be wrong about?

Maybe the nuance is more important than I think but the context was humor. The fact that a lawyer was making lawyer jokes, in my opinion makes the joke funnier and more appropriate. We consider ourselves a community on Naznet and I just wanted to fill the rest of the group in on your perspective.

Looking forward to getting to know you better.

Grace and Peace Brother,

[Dan Ross]

I am currently struggling with a woman in our congregation who has written written letters and emails to people in my congregation about my wife and I and how people need to beware of what we are teaching and encouraging. Recently, she became upset that I challenged our teens to love the homosexuals at their school. That night, she immediately 'unfriended' my wife and I on facebook and posted a message about how God gave her the strength to stay quiet in the midst of false teaching.

My temptation is to say mean things to her... To tell her how off she is. I am struggling with what it looks like to love someone who has repeatedly bashed my wife and I.

My apologies if this strayed too far from the thread topic.

Back in the day, when I had a real job. I would set up scenarios and play through the upcoming confrontation. I would have someone else play the part of the opposition and they would use all of their skills, education and experience to try to defeat me and my arguments. Sometimes I would play the part of my opponent. This procedure might help you. Go to the Bible. Find every passage that supports this woman's argument and prepare a defense for those arguments. You must put everything you've got into defending and promoting her position. Once you have done this, you will begin to understand how to respond to her. You will know why she is doing what she is doing. She might be a wonderful person and would possibly not be doing this if she thought that it was damaging her church or her pastor. You are the shepherd. You are the one that guards the sheep in the gate of the fold. She might be seeing you as a person who has abandoned this duty. Just a thought.

[Dan Ross]

Okay I'm a little confused. Does this mean I was wrong because I missed a nuance between being a law school graduate and a lawyer? (I'm assuming something along the lines of the difference between a medical school graduate and being a licensed physician?)

I don't mind being corrected and in fact appreciate it but your response to my mistake seems a bit sharp if what I missed was a relatively small distinction. (Or maybe I missed the humor part of the last sentence)



Maybe the nuance is more important than I think but the context was humor. The fact that a lawyer was making lawyer jokes, in my opinion makes the joke funnier and more appropriate. We consider ourselves a community on Naznet and I just wanted to fill the rest of the group in on your perspective.

Looking forward to getting to know you better.

Grace and Peace Brother,

Okay. I WAS a lawyer. I am not now a lawyer. The distinction is extremely important because I cannot give legal advice and people like to ask. I have never been licensed in Washington and have never had a desire to be. I was mostly a criminal defense lawyer. It was a lot like flying a plane or being in combat. Hours upon hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. I am also a pilot and combat veteran. I know what boredom is and I know what terror is. When I get into a discussion, I do not like to discuss my education or my experience. If I have to depend on that, my argument is meaningless and lame. Let's move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Manny Silva]

Manny, the discussion here is mainly internal. I don't think any human being can change the point of view of you and your friends, so if that were the goal, it would be a total waste of time. I at least am way beyond that point of hope. Just forget the discussion about credentials. It doesn't matter in this discussion.

Perhaps out Lord can, who knows. But when I look at church history, that appears not to be His main area of concern. He usually let us burn one another at the stake, Soli Deo Gloria of course.

The only hope I can see is that He might poor out His perfect love that casts out all fear. He still does that. So that's what I am praying for.

OK. Thank you.

[Manny Silva]

Manny,

I think it depends whether you mean "discernment" or "condemnation" when you say "judge". You have shown that you really don't care about biblical discernment when it comes to what is true, or what is true when it it comes to what others really have said. You twist both scripture and what others say so you can judge (condemn) others no matter what.

I and others have shown you scripture that you just ignore, as well ignoring the context when pointed out of the many you slander by twisting their quotes. It seems to me that you don't really care about any "truth" but your own. Such is my discernment of you based on years of observation and interaction; much of which is public record for others to observe as well. I am open to being wrong.

However, we have not condemned you, we have not called for your removal from the church or claimed that you are not a follower of the "real" Jesus. We'll leave that for God to decide.

You say you have been "judged" and "painted" unjustly by people here, yet people here have loved you and do love you. You are not banned or censored like I and others are when we try to engage you in your spaces (even though you talk about us there) and you are welcome to share and discuss and fellowship here. We may have strong disagreement, and many Nazneters do, but you are not condemned- you are welcome.

If you really care about "truth" I invite you to join us here in discussion rather just having insular discussion in your facebook group or blog where you make sure that everyone agrees with you. You have set up an environment for yourself where you listen only to those who tickle your ears. Here no one holds a monopoly on the truth and you will be sometimes challenged and sometimes affirmed, as we all seek to live in the truth of Jesus Christ together. At least stop throwing rocks at us from the outside. You only show up here to occasionally defend yourself from our strong objection of being attacked by you.

By the way, you sent me an email saying I mischaracterized you here on the first page of this thread. I responded by email putting what I said about you in bullet points and I told you that if you would tell me which one of the things I said about you wasn't true I would post a retraction of my statement here. I have not heard from you yet about anything specific I have said incorrectly about you, but the offer still stands.

You have obviously judged me too, James. Thank you. Makes my point I think, thatt shows you also believe that it is appropriate to judge.

[Rich Schmidt]

You have obviously judged me too, James. Thank you. Makes my point I think, thatt shows you also believe that it is appropriate to judge.

Evidently you're using "judge" in the sense of "discern" then. Is that right? Or do you believe that James has condemned you?

[Manny Silva]

Playing ignorant just won’t cut it anymore. Manny. Claiming to have discernment and then trying to play the "I can't debate with you big boys" card is dishonest.

And "further debate" is not true. You have never entered into a discussion since you have been on NazNet other than to do hit and run posts, using the excuse that you don't have time to spend discussing these things (although you seem to have plenty of time to write attacks against other Christians).

The plain and simple fact is that I have enough experience in biblical languages to know when someone does not understand them. It is not a matter of education; it is a matter of knowing what you are talking about. And Yomi Adegboye does not.

I gave no condescending opinions of his education. I simply stated that I could find nothing about them. Manny, it is about time you stopped reading things into what other people say in order to attack them. It's about time for you to be honest. You have not been to this point. If you really believe the Bible in the way you say you do, that dishonesty has consequences from the One who really does judge others.



I am wondering when you are going to actually do some investigation that goes beyond accumulating resources that support your own opinions. And I wonder when you are going to stop using Reformed and Baptist people to try to argue against Wesleyans. Maybe you should just be honest enough to change your moniker to "Reformed Reformed."

I have no intention of getting into a debate with one of your resources. If you are making the accusations and committing slander against others, you should at least have the courage to stand and respond in defense of what you have said rather than always running away, while throwing other people at us to do your defending. Either support and defend what you say, respond to those who challenge you, or stop. It’s that simple.



Have you actually read what I wrote on judging?

I have said that what you and Tim are doing is sinful, according to everything I read in Scripture. It is not the fact that you disagree with people, or even the content of the disagreement, but the feckless manner in which you attack others with slander, false accusations, and guilt by association, as well as refusal to deal with facts, an obstinate refusal to investigate beyond personal opinions, distortion of what people say, and a reckless and aggressive disregard for the truth. I'll stand by that. And yes, that includes anyone else who is committing the same kind of malicious attacks that violate Jesus' primary command of loving one another.

Finally, though, it is not my call. I really do believe Paul:

Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

Jeremiah warned the people of their sin for nearly 40 years, and few believed him or responded. Like the case of Hananiah, Jeremiah simply told them the truth and walked away when they refused to listen.

Manny, I have told you and Tim the truth. Whether you are willing to listen is your responsibility.

Jeremiah was vindicated (in tears) when the consequences came.

8:21 For the hurt of my poor people I am hurt, I mourn, and dismay has taken hold of me. 8:22 Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then has the health of my poor people not been restored? 9:1 O that my head were a spring of water, and my eyes a fountain of tears, so that I might weep day and night for the slain of my poor people!

No one will gloat when your consequences come; there will only be tears. But you cannot say you were not warned. My deepest prayer for you is the prayer of Elisha (2 Kng 6:17):

O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.

Prayers and blessings, and tears

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

There you go judging me again, showing that you contradicted your own comments that "Jesus said we should not judge". That's not biblical Dennis. Please read Yomi's biblically sound lesson again, or listen to Voddie's sermon. You will learn something about judging that is true- we are called to judge. Jesus said: "beware of false prophets". How do you suppose we can do that unless we are able to judge their actions and teachings? Can you explain that?

Of course you won't go listen to Voddie Baucham- who is as I said, is a resource at at least one Nazarene university. And you disparage him because of what? He's Reformed? And you would say that someone like Brian Mclaren is Wesleyan? That is why I can't and won't spend much time here, especially talking with you, not because I don't like you, but frankly, because you seem to think that your pronouncements (JUDGMENTS) (such as that Tim and I are being sinful) are the final word.
Who are you to tell me that what Tim and I are doing is sinful? What you are teaching is false teaching, the theory of process theology, Dennis. So I'm sorry, there are many Nazarenes and other Christians who utterly reject your disrespect for God's infallible word.

So sorry, Dennis, you are not a good source of authority for me. I'll stick more closely to folks like Voddie Baucham- and all the Nazarenes who reject Process Theology.

Thanks for your time.

[Benjamin Burch]

There you go judging me again, showing that you contradicted your own comments that "Jesus said we should not judge". That's not biblical Dennis. Please read Yomi's biblically sound lesson again, or listen to Voddie's sermon. You will learn something about judging that is true- we are called to judge. Jesus said: "beware of false prophets". How do you suppose we can do that unless we are able to judge their actions and teachings? Can you explain that?

Of course you won't go listen to Voddie Baucham- who is as I said, is a resource at at least one Nazarene university. And you disparage him because of what? He's Reformed? And you would say that someone like Brian Mclaren is Wesleyan? That is why I can't and won't spend much time here, especially talking with you, not because I don't like you, but frankly, because you seem to think that your pronouncements (JUDGMENTS) (such as that Tim and I are being sinful) are the final word.
Who are you to tell me that what Tim and I are doing is sinful? What you are teaching is false teaching, the theory of process theology, Dennis. So I'm sorry, there are many Nazarenes and other Christians who utterly reject your disrespect for God's infallible word.

So sorry, Dennis, you are not a good source of authority for me. I'll stick more closely to folks like Voddie Baucham- and all the Nazarenes who reject Process Theology.

Thanks for your time.

You'll have to show me where Dennis has taught Process Theology here, Manny. Likewise, it seems you are bouncing back and forth between different meanings of the word "judge." You want to use it to "condemn" and then cite someone else's use of that term in the sense of "discern" to support your use of it to "condemn." That's odd, considering they are completely different concepts.

[Bob Hunter]

When are you guys going to stop this madness? Seriously! I love you guys, and you all have brilliant minds, but you fritter your time away debating a man who is hellbent on insulting our church, and demeaning everything we stand for. I have watched this debate for over a year and I have not seen one occasion where Silva, Wirth and those who associate with him are even the slightest bit charitable. What is the point here folks? Really...I'm just saying. We gave it a chance and tried our gut level best to reason with these folks, but it just ain't happening. At some point we have to move on...didn't Jesus say something about dusting ones feet off? Lets face it, the Concerned Nazarenes do not want to receive input, they reject it. So let them go! Please ignore what is going on over there on their blog! Every time you post a thread on NN devoted to this issue, it drives traffic to their site lending credibility to their cause and inflating their egos. For Christ's sake...give it a rest.

And may I remind you all that not unlike myself...these guys are NOT presently in the Nazarene Church! They have left on their own, been asked to leave or never belonged to the CotN in the first place.

LET IT GO...MOVE ON FOLKS!

[Craig Laughlin]

Okay. I WAS a lawyer. I am not now a lawyer. The distinction is extremely important because I cannot give legal advice and people like to ask. I have never been licensed in Washington and have never had a desire to be. I was mostly a criminal defense lawyer. It was a lot like flying a plane or being in combat. Hours upon hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. I am also a pilot and combat veteran. I know what boredom is and I know what terror is. When I get into a discussion, I do not like to discuss my education or my experience. If I have to depend on that, my argument is meaningless and lame. Let's move along folks, nothing to see here.

Point taken. Thanks for explanation. - Moving on...

[Manny Silva]

You'll have to show me where Dennis has taught Process Theology here, Manny. Likewise, it seems you are bouncing back and forth between different meanings of the word "judge." You want to use it to "condemn" and then cite someone else's use of that term in the sense of "discern" to support your use of it to "condemn." That's odd, considering they are completely different concepts.

You'll have to show me where Dennis has taught Process Theology here, Manny. Likewise, it seems you are bouncing back and forth between different meanings of the word "judge." You want to use it to "condemn" and then cite someone else's use of that term in the sense of "discern" to support your use of it to "condemn." That's odd, considering they are completely different concepts.

I'm sorry, Ben, I don't recall ever saying that Dennis taught Process Theology "here?". perhaps you misread something again?

And perhaps you can give me a scripturally based lesson on where Jesus taught us to NOT judge, as Dennis erroneously thinks. You cannot because that is not true- we are commanded over and over in the scriptures to judge. In the very passages that Jesus said, "judge not, that ye be not judged:, a few verses later he says that you must remove the plank in your eye, BEFORE you can judge.

I would recommend also that you: read Yomi's excellent lesson on judging, and/or listen to Voddie Baucham's excellent sermon, then if something is wrong with either one, please let me know- using the scriptures of course, which is our authority, not our personal opinions.

Here’s a few more examples:

1. Paul commended the Bereans, for they were nobler than the Thessalonians, because why? Because they scrutinized his sermons and made sure he was preaching the right gospel. How can you do that without judging what he was preaching?
2. Paul called Simon the sorcerer a “son of the devil”, because he was perverting God's ways. Was he judging him in what he was doing? How else could he know he was perverting God's ways? Was he wrong for doing that? (Note that he did this shortly AFTER being filled with the Holy Spirit!
3. Paul scolded Peter PUBLICLY, for teaching the wrong doctrine. Was he not judging Peter? And note that he did not take Peter aside privately as Mattthew 18 commands us, because Peter was teaching the wrong things PUBLICLY, therefore Paul had to rebuke him publicly.
4. Then there is this admonition:

Acts 20:28-31 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard!

Ben, How can we be on guard for these savage wolves, unless we are able to judge the fruits of their work?

Matthew 7:15-16 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

If anyone here says that we should NOT ever judge, they are absolutely wrong, and it does not matter how many degrees you have. That's not from Manny's opinion; that's scriptural.

[Rich Schmidt]

If anyone here says that we should NOT ever judge, they are absolutely wrong, and it does not matter how many degrees you have. That's not from Manny's opinion; that's scriptural.

I don't think anyone here has said we shouldn't judge -- in the sense of discerning truth from error, right from wrong, etc. Has someone said this, and I missed it?

[Benjamin Burch]

Ben, How can we be on guard for these savage wolves, unless we are able to judge the fruits of their work?

Good question, allow me to answer with Scripture:

By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.

Or... maybe another Scripture...

My friends,* if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have received the Spirit should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. Take care that you yourselves are not tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfil* the law of Christ.

And, one more, which also speaks of the "fruits" we should be looking for.

My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become* my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.

‘This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.

These are the "fruits" we are to know them by. Not how they interpret Scripture one way or another, if it conforms to the way you interpreted it, Augustine, Calvin, Arminius, Erasmus, Barth, Origen, Justin, Gregory of Nyssa, Basil the Great, etc, etc, etc. They've all interpreted things differently. Whose reading is correct? Yours? On what authority?

No, as long as one can consent to the creeds of the faith, they are good in my book. The "fruit" I will look for is the fruit mentioned in these verses. Most of the people you condemn as heretics display these fruits. Sadly, from my interactions with you, they've been far more lacking in you. I will pray for you if you disagree with these being the fruits we are called to witness.

[Benjamin Burch]

Matthew 7:15-16 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

It's really odd, Manny. I do get the picture, but I'm not sure you do. After all, you didn't go "on and on." In fact, you left off right where we get to the important part of that statement. What are the fruits we should be looking for, Manny? Their belief on creation? Their belief on Open Theism? I mean, that's what Jesus was talking about, right?

‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

Does Jesus mention to us what those "fruits" are which they will be recognized by? Does he say how we'll know that they are "evildoers" and what that "evil" is?

Ye, Jesus does in Matthew (which is where one would look, if doing proper exegesis, to follow what Jesus means earlier in Matthew, i.e. chapter 7).

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

It seems that the "fruit" has nothing to do with belief. In fact, many people "believed," maybe even rightly. However, they're known by their fruits. Right? That's what Jesus says. He says on that day (judgment day), and then goes on to talk about judgment day and the "fruits" that we will know them by are not those you talk about so often on your blog. Also, the "evil" they did is not the evil you rail against on your blog. No, not at all. The "good" they did is the "good" which all those "heretics" keep talking about. It's really odd that you always use Scripture to talk about "scoffers" and "wolves in sheeps clothing" and all these other things. However, all the verses you use never specify what it is that they do wrong, or what's so bad about them. So you go on to assume it's the people you don't like.

Scripture seems to say something different than what you have tried to say, Manny. Hopefully I've used enough Scripture for you.

[Bob Hunter]

Guys...seriously? You are Manny Silva's best form of advertising, where else can he go to get almost 4,000 views but Naznet? You give him the attention he demands and thereby strengthen his hand. I know I won't be thanked for this,because you don't want to hear it.. but it needs to be said...dialog with these guys is impossible! I don't see any good that has come from it...NONE!

[Jim Chabot]

I don't think anyone here has said we shouldn't judge -- in the sense of discerning truth from error, right from wrong, etc. Has someone said this, and I missed it?

It appears that we are having difficulty with terms. It is fair to say that we should not "condemn" rather we should "discern". The word "judge" can be used for either, it takes a bit of work searching the context in order to flush out the meaning of "judge" as used in different posts. My take is that Manny is talking about discernment rather than condemnation.

[Glenda Harvey]

Sadly, from my interactions with you, they've been far more lacking in you. I will pray for you if you disagree with these being the fruits we are called to witness.

I don't think we can know people well enough through the internet to say whether or not their life bears the Fruits of the Spirit. I have had discussions on the Reformed Nazarene web site with Manny in which we have disagreed and he has usually been kind in his responses to me.

It seems to me that the Wesleyan vs Calvinist discussions of years gone by have shifted to Emergent vs Fundamentalist discussions. Wesleyans have always espoused a Free Will doctrine which makes many of us at least sympathetic to the Emergent and Open Theology movements. There are some such as Grant Swank who believe that the Wesleyan teachings are heretical. They see the Emergent and Open Theology movements as being extremely liberal.

I think these issues are seen as much more important to those who are of a Calvinist/Reformed mind frame than to those of us who come from a Wesleyan mind frame. They want to warn people of what they perceive as false teaching. At the same time those of us are who are in the process of exploring these ideas and discussing them with others are going to feel defensive when we feel that our Christianity is being questioned.

[Benjamin Burch]

I don't think we can know people well enough through the internet to say whether or not their life bears the Fruits of the Spirit. I have had discussions on the Reformed Nazarene web site with Manny in which we have disagreed and he has usually been kind in his responses to me.

It seems to me that the Wesleyan vs Calvinist discussions of years gone by have shifted to Emergent vs Reformed discussions. Wesleyans have always espoused a Free Will doctrine which makes many of us at least sympathetic to the Emergent and Open Theology movements. There are some such as Grant Swank who believe that the Wesleyan teachings are heretical. They see the Emergent and Open Theology movements as being extremely liberal.

I think these issues are seen as much more important to those who are of a Calvinist/Reformed mind frame than to those of us who come from a Wesleyan mind frame. They want to warn people of what they perceive as false teaching. At the same time those of us are who are in the process of exploring these ideas and discussing them with others are going to feel defensive when we feel that our Christianity is being questioned.

I must say that reading my statement in your quote, it sounds much more harsh than I meant it to. I meant in no way to say that Manny lacks the fruits of the Spirit. Not at all. I meant a simple comparison: Since Manny doesn't know the others he condemns as bearing "bad fruit" and has only their writings to work from, so I only have Manny's writings. If I am going to compare the two, it seems that his writings are "lacking" moreso than the others. That is not to say they're completely devoid. Not at all. I am sorry it seemed that way.

[Todd Erickson]

It appears that we are having difficulty with terms. It is fair to say that we should not "condemn" rather we should "discern". The word "judge" can be used for either, it takes a bit of work searching the context in order to flush out the meaning of "judge" as used in different posts. My take is that Manny is talking about discernment rather than condemnation.

The problem is, the language that is being used on the "Concerned" sites is "and these people are heretics and false teachers, and leading others to hell". Condemnation

The statements from James, Benjamin, et. al are rather "Brother, you have gone against the Spirit of what Christ commands us, and I ask that you would return." No condemnation, just discernment of direction.

[Dennis Bratcher]

There you go judging me again, showing that you contradicted your own comments that "Jesus said we should not judge". That's not biblical Dennis. Please read Yomi's biblically sound lesson again, or listen to Voddie's sermon. You will learn something about judging that is true- we are called to judge. Jesus said: "beware of false prophets". How do you suppose we can do that unless we are able to judge their actions and teachings? Can you explain that?

Of course you won't go listen to Voddie Baucham- who is as I said, is a resource at at least one Nazarene university. And you disparage him because of what? He's Reformed? And you would say that someone like Brian Mclaren is Wesleyan? That is why I can't and won't spend much time here, especially talking with you, not because I don't like you, but frankly, because you seem to think that your pronouncements (JUDGMENTS) (such as that Tim and I are being sinful) are the final word.

Who are you to tell me that what Tim and I are doing is sinful? What you are teaching is false teaching, the theory of process theology, Dennis. So I'm sorry, there are many Nazarenes and other Christians who utterly reject your disrespect for God's infallible word.

So sorry, Dennis, you are not a good source of authority for me. I'll stick more closely to folks like Voddie Baucham- and all the Nazarenes who reject Process Theology.

Thanks for your time.

It is not on my list of aspirations to be a source of authority for you. But I will tell you the truth. And have. You do with it what you will.

Blessings on you, my brother.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Gary Creely]

Guys...seriously? You are Manny Silva's best form of advertising, where else can he go to get almost 4,000 views but Naznet? You give him the attention he demands and thereby strengthen his hand. I know I won't be thanked for this,because you don't want to hear it.. but it needs to be said...dialog with these guys is impossible! I don't see any good that has come from it...NONE!

I am not sure you are on the right track with that Bob. Google is a bit of a game changer. The reality is if you search for say Naznet the 4th result is Naznet distorts, and the 5th result is reformednazarene. If you search David Mcclung you will find this "NAZNET MODERATOR’S DAVE MCCLUNG IS LAX, INEPT, A TROUBLE-MAKER" at the number six spot (ie the middle of the first page). Allowing there only to be one voice on the web equals- that voice must be true. Most reasonable people reading through these naznet threads would be able to discern whats what. With out these threads the net is filled with a one sided story.

Lengthy Naznet threads on this stuff serve as a counter point to the slander. With out them there is primarily one voice out there, and it is not the voice of truth. Most of those 4000 views (probably only 500 or 600 unique people) would result in at least better understanding of the facts surrounding the various issues.

Folks like CN are not fueled or strengthened by our responses, but rather the responses of similarly mind souls. Naznet serves as one of the best and only lines of defense against these online attacks.

I like a lot of what you post on here, but I have to disagree with your theory on minimizing these guys effects.

[Bob Hunter]

Gary,

I disagree. I helped Admin a FB group set up to respond to these guys, i also created several YouTubes videos. I have been involved in this issue for over a year. All five Admins of our FB group resolved to disengage from any public dialog with the CNs, and we have stuck to it. Moreover, my correspondence with Nazarene leaders has convinced me that nothing good is being accomplished here. Every time a thread is posted on FB or NN it drives people to their sites and there is a noticeable increase of traffic on their blogs. (I'm not tracking exact numbers, and neither would I debate your google theory, but I think my analysis is pretty accurate).

Need I remind you that the key Concerned Nazarene figures are no longer attending Nazarene Churches, they have left, are leaving or never were Nazarenes in the first place! My goodness! Have you noticed how many visible Nazarene leaders refuse to dignify these mean-spirited attacks? It's called Death by silence. And I think it is time Gary... We have given it our best and tried to "inform" them, sadly, they totally reject it. Not only have they rejected it, they deplore and demean anyone who disagrees with them.

I just think we can provide a better understanding of the facts as you describe without providing shock value entertainment for NN users (even though that may not have been the intent). I know there is a certain attraction and draw to an internet street fight, but don't you think we can do better? Maybe we should start...lets lock down this thread and get rid of it. I won't miss it, that is for sure.

[Gary Creely]

And I think it is time Gary... We have given it our best and tried to "inform" them, sadly, they totally reject it. Not only have they rejected it, they deplore and demean anyone who disagrees with them.

The information I am thinking of is not for the CN types benefit, but for the unsuspecting folk in one of our churches who starts poking around and finds one of these blogs (they come up quite well on searches). Granted the tone of this particular thread does have some street flavor, that is not what I am looking to promote. What I am saying is the more counter information there is out on the web, the better chance there is for our people to not be led down an ugly road. I have had to deal with some parishioners who have gone down this path, and it is no fun. If only they could have found some reasonable voices, it could have saved me and them some pain.

[Rich Schmidt]

I'm with Gary on this one. Sorry, Bob. Let's model respectful dialogue, filled with grace and truth. Both for the sake of our brothers and sisters in the Concerned camp and for those who aren't in either camp but are asking questions and looking for answers.

I just Googled "Reformed Nazarene" (w/o the quotes), and this thread was the 4th or 5th result.

[Hans Deventer]

Evidently you're using "judge" in the sense of "discern" then. Is that right? Or do you believe that James has condemned you?

He's using "judge" as in "I prefer peanut butter over cheese". Defined that way, of course it's impossible not to judge. We use judge as in "tearing people apart and nailing them on the cross" like the Pharisees did to Jesus. That, of course is completely avoidable.

[Hans Deventer]

I know there is a certain attraction and draw to an internet street fight, but don't you think we can do better? Maybe we should start...lets lock down this thread and get rid of it. I won't miss it, that is for sure.

How can we do better? Serious question. I've been wondering this. We can let the internet be filled with false accusations, without providing any other resource. Ignoring would be a good idea in the days gone past, but it no longer works that way. We're dealing with people who are obsessed and derive their goal in life, their very identity from this. They will not listen to anyone, will not stop unless the Lord steps in as He did towards Saul, or death take them. Not even the misery it brings them and their families in will stop them, it just turns them into martyrs. It's a very sad ting to see.
But the question is, should we let them devour churches and pastors, for the simple reason that they do not agree with their own specific unorthodox brand of Christianity? Is that the Christian thing to do?

[Hans Deventer]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, but the truth is that not all is black in this regrettable controversy.

1. We are actually blessed! The Lord says so: "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

2. We have a good reason to love and to pray: "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven"

3. We get to follow Jesus in his prayers: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." Which has to be a good prayer that pleases God, there can be no doubt about it.

4. It is a great opportunity to realise our utter dependence on Christ. Nothing we can say or do makes any difference, so we come before Him empty handed and all we can say is, 'Lord, we cannot heal these people. Only you can.' It isn't bad to be completely depended on Christ. We cannot ever build the Kingdom, that is God's work alone.

5. It helps us to focus on what is really important in our faith, and to focus on the core in stead of things we might like a great deal but are not crucial. It is a good thing to know where the heart of the gospel beats.

6. It prompted even the Board of General Superintendents to speak about our essential beliefs and put forward the Agreed Statement of Belief again. That is a very good thing, especially because we Nazarenes can be notoriously vague in what our essentials are.

7. And most of all, we get to find our security, identity, hope and future in Christ alone. The temptation to find security in jobs, friends, systems, whatever, is always very much alive. But when they come under attack, we realise none of those will last, and quite a few systems are not sustainable either. Ultimately, nothing remains but the love of God.

[James Diggs]

You have obviously judged me too, James. Thank you. Makes my point I think, thatt shows you also believe that it is appropriate to judge.

Manny, anyone who can read what I said can tell that you are just hearing what you want to hear in a way to justify yourself. My discernment is not the same as your condemnation. But you just make the word “judge” what you want it to be for your own purposes. You cherry pick and twist my words just like you do scripture.

Ben, How can we be on guard for these savage wolves, unless we are able to judge the fruits of their work?

You ask a great question here, but I wonder if you really want to hear the answer…. My guess is no. I hope I am wrong. But let's see what you do with Benjamin's response....

Good question, allow me to answer with Scripture.... Galatians 5:22-6,….. Galatians 6:1-2,….. John 15:8-14,……

You always say no on answers with scripture and this isn’t true. Benjamine just did, but I am afraid you will ignore it. He goes on…

Does Jesus mention to us what those "fruits" are which they will be recognized by? Does he say how we'll know that they are "evildoers" and what that "evil" is? Ye, Jesus does in Matthew (which is where one would look, if doing proper exegesis, to follow what Jesus means earlier in Matthew, i.e. chapter 7). .

My guess is if you respond again, you will avoid the biblical text and Benjamin’s comments and you will cherry pick something else someone else said that you can use to continue and justify your actions. It does not seem you really want to know the truth as you work so hard only to confirm what you already think instead. For all the talk about “just believing the bible” I have yet to see it when you are confronted with so much scripture you just ignore.

It's really odd that you always use Scripture to talk about "scoffers" and "wolves in sheeps clothing" and all these other things. However, all the verses you use never specify what it is that they do wrong, or what's so bad about them. So you go on to assume it's the people you don't like. .

This is very accurate. A “wolf in sheep’s clothing” is a biblical idea, but you determine such a person based on those YOU disagree with. Again you use these verses to say what YOU want them to say. And when someone takes their time to show you how the scripture instructs us further like Benjamin did about those things you just shut your ears because such understanding does not further your agenda.

Again Manny, I doubt you will engage Benjamin in the substance of the scriptures he has shown you. This is usually where you tend to check out - either by focusing on something other than the scripture that was given to you or by saying “I am to busy to spend all my time chatting here on NazNet”. I would love to find that I am wrong. We will just have to see.

[Jim Chabot]

Need I remind you that the key Concerned Nazarene figures are no longer attending Nazarene Churches, they have left, are leaving or never were Nazarenes in the first place!

You have said this twice now, and you may be correct in most instances I do not know. Manny Silva attends the International Church of the Nazarene in New Bedford, MA, he is comfortable with the teaching here, I personally haven't heard him object to anything at our church. I can tell you that he did a great job narrating our Christmas program.

He is concerned with what he sees going on within the denomination, and he has that right. Perhaps if the knives could be lowered on both sides, a reasonable albeit lengthy dialog could take place. And let's not kid ourselves, not all dialog has been nice heading in Manny's direction. Do you honestly think that he keeps his guard up for no reason?

Please take note that my defense is limited to Manny, I have read the online attacks against Hans, Scott and Dave, and I am quite troubled by them.

[Jim Chabot]

Again Manny, I doubt you will engage Benjamin in the substance of the scriptures he has shown you. This is usually where you tend to check out - either by focusing on something other than the scripture that was given to you or by saying “I am to busy to spend all my time chatting here on NazNet”. I would love to find that I am wrong. We will just have to see.

In fairness I would ask if Ben actually responded to Manny's question. It doesn't appear to me that he did. Ben took the word "fruits" out of Manny's context and applied his own while responding. Perhaps if Manny had used a different word there? Regardless of the word choice, it is clear by the context that he spoke not to the fruit of the spirit, but rather to the "result" of false teaching. I think that the word "wolves" makes it clear that Manny's question is relative to false teaching, one may disagree with his definition, but to properly respond to the question, one must acknowledge the subject, Ben did not do that.

So before we accuse Manny of non response, perhaps someone could actually respond to his question. I am not saying that he won't or hasn't disengaged, I'm just saying that in this instance, the response wasn't fair, therefore a return to conversation would be difficult if not impossible.