Reformed Nazarenes

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

John,
It is very sad to see you write this, seeing that I considered you a friend. It would have been better if you wrote me privately, or even called me, yet this is the first time you said anything like this to me, and you do it in a public forum, friend.
There is too much to respond to now, but I will later on give a full response to you, a pastor, who should not have written this in this manner.
I cannot let this go unchallenged. I will also forward a copy of this to family back home who are praying for you, and to those who you have referred to in this commentary, and in my opinion, you have just slandered.

Sincerely in Christ,

manny

Lord, I pray that you'll have mercy on Manny. He's in pain and he's causing pain to others. He's has such a money, time, and emotional investment in all this that he can't see a way out. I pray that you'll help him to know what to do to find a way to rediscover for himself what it means to be a recipient of your love and mercy and then reflect those qualities in his interactions with others.

Amen.

[Benjamin Burch]

Yes the best way to respond would be to demontrate why the question should be rephrased. And then let the initial poster explain, then once there is an understanding we can move forward. For some reason my mind continually wanders back to Isaiah, where God says "come let us reason together" So you see Ben had a third option, which should have been the first.

Jim,

I'm trying to understand you here, I promise. What should I have done? What should I have said? How should I have responded to someone who asks:

* How can we judge their fruits?
* Please Use Scripture?

I did that. I used Scripture to address the question. I thought I was being as understanding as possible by answering 100% the way he asked. Clearly that was not the case. Now, I need from you to help me know how better to do this, because I'm not seeing it. This is not a rhetorical question/post, Jim. I'm being 100% honest here. Please help me because I'm so lost it is not even funny.

And how do I do so, without honoring his question as valid? Because that's important too, as I think you yourself have admitted to. I have no clue what this "third option" is, and I really need your help right now since you seem to know what it is.

[Todd Erickson]

Guys, seriously? Tim Wirth is thanking you for the publicity. The more attention you give them, the more attention they demand. (And trust me, there is no limit to their demands) Why don't we do as Dan Boone advised and, "stun them with our silence."

If you don't like it, why do you keep reading it?

This is not an issue of "if we argue long enough, maybe they will change their minds". It's an issue of "If we do not present opposition, there are those who will buy their arguments wholesale." This cannot be won through silence.

[John Brickley]

John,
It is very sad to see you write this, seeing that I considered you a friend. It would have been better if you wrote me privately, or even called me, yet this is the first time you said anything like this to me, and you do it in a public forum, friend.
There is too much to respond to now, but I will later on give a full response to you, a pastor, who should not have written this in this manner.
I cannot let this go unchallenged. I will also forward a copy of this to family back home who are praying for you, and to those who you have referred to in this commentary, and in my opinion, you have just slandered.

Sincerely in Christ,

manny

Manny,

I just want you to know that I love you, and still consider you a friend. But you have made a very public campaign against people, and you asked a public question (which as I read it) implied that people have not been hurt by your campaign, and that simply is not the case. I have refrained all this time from commenting about what you are doing because I have not wanted to debate the theology and scripture with you because I do not see that as the essential issue. The issue is how people are being treated by your blog and the other blogs associated with the concerned nazarenes. The truth is you have hurt people with your campaign and I was simply addressing that. I love you still and your wonderful family, we are still family in my opinion. But at times even those we love we must confront when they are in the wrong. Perhaps you are right that I should have written this to you privately, but the fact is that this has gone far beyond you and I and it is touching many lives around the church, and thus there does need to be a public counter balance to what you all have been presenting on your blogs. I am deeply grieved to have to have written what I did, but I feel as if your assertion needed to be addressed.

In relation to what you are going to do with these posts, you need to do what you feel in your heart is right. I love you and am praying for you.

John

[Manny Silva]

Manny,

I just want you to know that I love you, and still consider you a friend. But you have made a very public campaign against people, and you asked a public question (which as I read it) implied that people have not been hurt by your campaign, and that simply is not the case. I have refrained all this time from commenting about what you are doing because I have not wanted to debate the theology and scripture with you because I do not see that as the essential issue. The issue is how people are being treated by your blog and the other blogs associated with the concerned nazarenes. The truth is you have hurt people with your campaign and I was simply addressing that. I love you still and your wonderful family, we are still family in my opinion. But at times even those we love we must confront when they are in the wrong. Perhaps you are right that I should have written this to you privately, but the fact is that this has gone far beyond you and I and it is touching many lives around the church, and thus there does need to be a public counter balance to what you all have been presenting on your blogs. I am deeply grieved to have to have written what I did, but I feel as if your assertion needed to be addressed.

In relation to what you are going to do with these posts, you need to do what you feel in your heart is right. I love you and am praying for you.

John

We are continuing to pray for you John back home. My response as I said will come later. I assume you have said what you feel is right in your heart, I will do the same. As I said, I believe it was a serious mistake to do what you did here.
I am praying as to what and how to write it. It will address various points you made here about me; I will not address anything else you said about anyone else.

[James Diggs]

Manny and John,

I appreciate how you both are protecting the "everybody else" in your personal and difficult exchange with one another. Manny, It sounds like John really cares about you and his friendship with you. I am glad you have friends like John, and it sounds like John is saying the despite the conflict he is glad to have a friend like you. I will be praying for you both, and I am sure most of us following on NazNet will be praying too.

I am praying for healing between you two- but also healing for all of us. Christ bore our sins that we have committed against him and one another for our healing and reconciliation. I am praying for Christ to do his work in all of us.

[John Brickley]

We are continuing to pray for you John back home. My response as I said will come later. I assume you have said what you feel is right in your heart, I will do the same. As I said, I believe it was a serious mistake to do what you did here.
I am praying as to what and how to write it. It will address various points you made here about me; I will not address anything else you said about anyone else.

Thank you Manny. I deeply value your prayers as I deeply value you.

John

[Jim Chabot]

Ben; Ok, my turn to be put on the spot, thats fair. Here is what I think I would write. (I'll pretent to be you for the rest of the post.)

Ben, How can we be on guard for these savage wolves, unless we are able to judge the fruits of their work?

Matthew 7:15-16 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

If anyone here says that we should NOT ever judge, they are absolutely wrong, and it does not matter how many degrees you have. That's not from Manny's opinion; that's scriptural.

Ok Manny, I will answer you with scripture, but first could we clarify something because I'm not clear on what you mean here. The verse you quote says that we should judge them by their fruit, however your question refers to the "fruits of their work", these are two different things in my mind. So it would be helpful if you could clarify before we go on.

My take on the Matthew verse is that this "fruit" is in fact the fuit of the Spirit, do you agree?

My take on your question is that your opinion is that we should examine the effect that their teaching has on others. Is that correct?

Ben(ok not really.)

[Manny Silva]

I have prayed about this, and I prefer that John and I deal with this privately, and so that's where I will take it. I still consider him a friend.

[Hans Deventer]

I have prayed about this, and I prefer that John and I deal with this privately, and so that's where I will take it. I still consider him a friend.

As you wish. Anyway, I consider the question you asked me sufficiently answered. I don't know personally, way too many do. Thanks for asking.

And prayer seems the best way to deal with this situation for all the rest of us.

[Jon Twitchell]

Well, accept it. I've had resolutions rejected, in fact, the last one was killed in a committee consisting of 7 persons and thus never made it to the floor! That sucks.

Yea... .brother... I agree... I was pretty discouraged by that decision. In fact, of all the things that were passed or didn't pass.... I think that the outcome of that particular resolution is what disappoints me the most.

[David Graham]

Okay Guys, I feel uncomfortable with a lot of what has been said on this thread; not with regard to the various arguements but with regard to the lack of charity that has at times been shown to one another and what appears to me to be personal attacks. I have also recieved a complaint about these concerns.

So, I will close the thread until I discuss this matter fruther with Ben and we decide where to go from here.

GRACE AND PEACE
Dave

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