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Thread: The Bible

  1. #1
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    The Bible

    Starting point for a Nazarene is of course the compressed statement in the Agreed Statement of Belief. But we can also use the Article of Faith concerning the Scriptures, as they explain what is meant there. By the way, from an historical point of view it is interesting to notice that the creed that everyone used who became a member of the CotN before 2005, didn’t contain a single word on the Scriptures! In other words, for membership we confess what we believe from and based on the Scriptures, rather than requiring a certain belief about the Scriptures! It says:
    801. [...] We believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We especially emphasize the deity of Jesus Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. We believe that human beings are born in sin; that they need the work of forgiveness through Christ and the new birth by the Holy Spirit; that subsequent to this there is the deeper work of heart cleansing or entire sanctification through the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and that to each of these works of grace the Holy Spirit gives witness. We believe that our Lord will return, the dead shall be raised, and that all shall come to final judgment with its rewards and punishments.
    From the Agreed Statement of Belief:
    We believe:
    26.1. In one God—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    26.2. That the Old and New Testament Scriptures, given by plenary inspiration, contain all truth necessary to faith and Christian living.
    From the Articles of Faith:
    IV. The Holy Scriptures
    4. We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith. (Luke 24:44-47; John 10:35; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:20-21)
    It is clear that the Church of the Nazarene requires of its members belief in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Nowhere it says that we must believe in the Bible. Which of course makes sense. The Bible didn’t die for us, the Bible doesn’t love us, the Bible won’t save us. The Bible leads to the Saviour, Jesus Christ (John 5:39, 20:31, Gal 3:24).

    So what’s the big deal here? Isn’t this just a language game? Not really. There are of course different approaches to the Scriptures, depending on how one looks at the inspiration of them. Broadly speaking they range from verbal diction by God, to just a human book. And anything in between. Now both extremes are problematic. The former is because obviously, the styles of the authors of the various books are quite different. I guess I don’t have to belabour that point. But that means that God did in fact not dictate verbally all of the Scriptures. At some points He clearly spoke, that’s understood. Yet at other points we have prophets and unknown authors conveying His message, and as it appears, with some room for themselves to voice it.
    The latter is problematic because if effectively denies the possibility that God can speak to us at all. All we’d have left is the record of human impressions of, yeah, of what? Religious experiences? Hardly a foundation to build on.

    So we believe the Scriptures are θεόπνευστος, God-breathed. But not in such a way as to turn people into mere typewriters. Therefore we believe this testimony to be “inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation”, for the very simple reason that salvation is its goal from Gen 1 to Rev 22, and it is crucial to read anything in the light of its purpose in order to properly understand it, especially the Bible.

    The genius of this article of faith is that it describes exactly these crucial issues: divine inspiration, not dictation, and its goal: salvation. When seen in its historic context it is even more remarkable how we ever got this article. It was adopted in its current form in 1928, and it is well known that Nazarene theologian H. Orton Wiley had a big influence on its formulation. Of course in those days, the battle between Fundamentalism and theological liberalism threatened to devour the church. The one group trying to found authority on inerrancy of the autographs (that we don’t have), the other drifting from any authority whatsoever. Wiley managed to steer the ship of the church clear off both rocks, recognizing the divine inspiration and its purpose. In other words, the authority of the Scriptures emerges when we read it according to its goal. How? That is the work of the Holy Spirit. So authority is founded on the work of the Holy Spirit, not only in the initial inspiration, but likewise in inspiring and guiding the reader. For obviously “the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor 3:6).

    That is why we believe in the Holy Spirit, but not in the same way, in the Bible.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Nicely written Hans. I read through it twice and found it to be highly agreeable. What I find interesting is that I know that you and I look at scripture from two very different starting points, yet in this overview I find agreement. I do not find this troubling in any way, but it is quite interesting.

    Thanks wasn't enough in this case!
    Thanks Hans Deventer - "thanks" for this post

  3. #3
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Nicely written Hans. I read through it twice and found it to be highly agreeable. What I find interesting is that I know that you and I look at scripture from two very different starting points, yet in this overview I find agreement.
    Then perhaps, we do not really differ all that much, Jim. We may be approaching subjects from different angles, and I think we do, but where we end up may very well not be all that much apart.

    BTW, I obviously didn't write this down all of a sudden. It's from my blog but I took a serious approach to Todd's suggestion because I did feel it could be useful.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

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    Hans, was this written in responce to a blog dated March 5 2010 by Grant Swank?
    Last edited by James Johnson; April 15th, 2010 at 02:03 PM.

  5. #5
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    Hans, was this written in responce to a blog dated March 5 2010 by Grant Swank?
    I haven't read that one but I know he is purposely distorting what I have said and I felt I needed a place to explain what I meant. That's why I started my blog.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
    Thanks James Johnson - "thanks" for this post

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    Hans I accidently ran across his remarks yesterday, I meant no disrespect to you by bringing it up here.

  7. #7
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    Hans I accidently ran across his remarks yesterday, I meant no disrespect to you by bringing it up here.
    No problem, James!
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

  8. #8
    Welcoming Committee Carolyn Franklin's Avatar

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    What I was thinking when I knew that NazNet crashed was there goes my opportunity to learn from some of our wonderful Nazarene Theologians. Hopefully, that opportunity is back.

    gc
    Thanks Susan Unger - "thanks" for this post

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    Regular Member Duane Maynard's Avatar

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    Hans that was a very helpful post. I took the time to Google Naznet because I did not know the server crashed and I found the blog by Grant Swank and some others. Very disturbing stuff actually.

    I can still hear my grandfather, who was a preacher in a protestant denomination in the first half of the 1900`s and my uncle, who was a member of the Adventist Church here in the US, argueing over the Sabbath day of worship. As it turned out both loved and followed Jesus all their lives but they could not bury the axe, so to speak - so they had heated arguements.

    The inspiration that inspired the writers of the Bible is still going strong as each new generation discovers Jesus, He sends Hiis Spirit and the Spirit reveals the Scripture to us.
    "Anything that God has ever done, He can do now! Anything that God has ever done anywhere, He can do here! Anything God has ever done for anyone, He can do for you! A.W. Tozer
    Thanks David Graham, Terri Knoll, James Johnson, Hans Deventer - "thanks" for this post

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    Very well said Duane, God bless you.

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    The Church of the Nazarene believes the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

    "We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation."

    The sttement was never meant to conclude that one believes the Word ONLY regarding salvation. Deventer is reading that into the statement.

    Read NAZNET HANS DEVENTER STILL DEFENDS NAZARENES NOT BELIEVING IN THE BIBLE at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...he_bible.thtml

    Also, read GOD CRASHED NAZNET at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...d_naznet.thtml

    However, there is a real chance that the site owner/moderators will see that this post is deleted and that I am not permitted to post on this site. They will do to me as they did to Robert Hartman--ban me from the site.

  12. #12
    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    The Church of the Nazarene believes the Bible as the infallible Word of God.
    The only infallible Word of God is Jesus Christ.

    "We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation."
    Agreed, and everyone from the author of that statement to our General Superintendents to our church theologians agree that this means Scripture is not infallible when it comes to things not pertaining to salvation (ie, math and science)
    The sttement was never meant to conclude that one believes the Word ONLY regarding salvation. Deventer is reading that into the statement.

    Read NAZNET HANS DEVENTER STILL DEFENDS NAZARENES NOT BELIEVING IN THE BIBLE at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...he_bible.thtml

    Also, read GOD CRASHED NAZNET at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...d_naznet.thtml

    However, there is a real chance that the site owner/moderators will see that this post is deleted and that I am not permitted to post on this site. They will do to me as they did to Robert Hartman--ban me from the site.
    Well, if you're going to come and post articles that specifically attack individuals, yes, your post will likely be deleted. If only you knew the number of posts attacking Grant that had also been deleted...

    Grant has also written that the "preferred" thing in the Church of the Nazarene is to dedicate infants rather than baptizing them, despite the fact that our Manual has procedures for both without any preference shown one way or another.

    He's also claimed that heaven is not an intermediate state, yet our Articles of Faith say that Jesus is coming back to Earth- if Jesus is coming to Earth, why would we stay in Heaven? Personally, I hope that I end up wherever Jesus is, rather than being stuck in Heaven for all eternity while he's down here on the new heaven and earth, don't you?

    I wonder, if one of the many sites that Grant posts on were to crash, would that also be God's doing, or would that one be credited to Satan? Funny how when we approve of something that happens, we give the credit to God, and when we don't we blame less reputable characters. I pray that you and Grant are both shown the kind of grace that you refuse to show others.

  13. #13
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    A little stong on the grace aspect brother, unless that is you personally know Priscilla and her habits of extending grace.

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    Site Manager G R 'Scott' Cundiff's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    However, there is a real chance that the site owner/moderators will see that this post is deleted and that I am not permitted to post on this site. They will do to me as they did to Robert Hartman--ban me from the site.
    Or, perhaps, "Priscilla" you can stop trying to get banned and actually talk to and with people rather than just trying to collect material for more personal attacks.

    I intentionally left the door open for some who have been unwilling in the past to be a part of this fellowship thinking it might be a fresh start for them too.

    "GOD CRASHED NAZNET" - funny, I thought he helped us get it back up and running is less time than anyone could have guessed.

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    Scott I know you hve come under attack in some of these blogs but I would ask that we not ban them for giving differing opinion, differing opinion happens all the time here. I think through dialog perhaps misunderstanding can be bridged on this subject. I do not know the history here nor do I personally know anyone involved in the debate. But perhaps the debate will be good for us. jmo And know this, I appreciate what you do here and I am praying for the division to be gapped. God bless you brother!

  16. #16
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    The Church of the Nazarene believes the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

    "We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation."

    The sttement was never meant to conclude that one believes the Word ONLY regarding salvation. Deventer is reading that into the statement.

    Read NAZNET HANS DEVENTER STILL DEFENDS NAZARENES NOT BELIEVING IN THE BIBLE at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...he_bible.thtml

    Also, read GOD CRASHED NAZNET at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...d_naznet.thtml

    However, there is a real chance that the site owner/moderators will see that this post is deleted and that I am not permitted to post on this site. They will do to me as they did to Robert Hartman--ban me from the site.
    Priscilla: I don't believe that you will be banned from the site because of who you are. Personal attacks may get the job done, but do you need to go there. Han's and I have disagreed on many things, and on many things we still disagree. Of one thing I am confident, he is doing his level best to follow what Christ commands us, I am too, and yet somehow we still disagree. I am commanded to love Hans and he is commanded to love me, so far we have managed to do that while disagreeing.

    So how about a different approach, how about a good thoughtful argument that shows where Han's has erred in his post that starts this thread.

    Your profile says that you signed up for fellowship, how about we give it a real try. I do not believe in innerrancy yet I believe that the Bible is infallible, trustworthy, and authoritative, and I believe that it records Jesus saying that we must love one another. He said that commandment was like unto the first to love God and that all the law and the prophets hang on these two. So can we start there? I'm not your enemy.

  17. #17
    Site Manager G R 'Scott' Cundiff's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    Scott I know you hve come under attack in some of these blogs but I would ask that we not ban them for giving differing opinion, differing opinion happens all the time here. I think through dialog perhaps misunderstanding can be bridged on this subject. I do not know the history here nor do I personally know anyone involved in the debate. But perhaps the debate will be good for us. jmo And know this, I appreciate what you do here and I am praying for the division to be gapped. God bless you brother!
    My friend, how in the world did you get from my post that anyone is banned for giving a different opinion on NazNet?
    Thanks David Graham, Shea Zellweger - "thanks" for this post

  18. #18
    Senior Member James Diggs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    The Church of the Nazarene believes the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

    "We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation."

    The sttement was never meant to conclude that one believes the Word ONLY regarding salvation.
    No one is suggesting that the bible is somehow only topically "inerrant" in a way that compartmentalizesit and takes away from the value of ALL scripture. We believe in "plenary inspiration" that all scripture is inspired by God. That is what we believe ALL scripture is. The use of the word "inerrantly" refers to what we believe what ALL SCRIPTURE does. What does all scripture DO? It inerrantly reveals the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation.

    We don't say any scripture is "inerrant", but we do say ALL scripture perfectly accomplishes its purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    Read NAZNET HANS DEVENTER STILL DEFENDS NAZARENES NOT BELIEVING IN THE BIBLE at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...he_bible.thtml

    Also, read GOD CRASHED NAZNET at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...d_naznet.thtml
    These articles break my heart because they attack and mischaracterize people in a malicious way. Hans and the people of Naznet are not saying what these articles claim they say. You can dissagree with them if you want- but spreading untruth about them all over the internet does not seem very Christian to me.

    I hope you and Grant will come back and join the conversation rather than throw rocks from the outside.

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    Scott I didn't, I was just asking that you NOT ban this individual yet. I think the dialog could be helpful. Sorry for the inabilty to communicate my thoughts more clearly.
    Thanks Benjamin Burch, Carolyn Franklin - "thanks" for this post

  20. #20
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    The statement was never meant to conclude that one believes the Word ONLY regarding salvation. Deventer is reading that into the statement.
    Priscilla, people far more learned than I KNOW what that statement means and it does not mean that each and every word is dictated. Check the Wesleyan Theological Journals if you want. I'm reading nothing in that statement, I'm merely stating what it actually says. Which is of course why some people want to see it changed. There would be no reason for that if it clearly taught your view of inspiration. However, it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    Read NazNet Hans Devent still defends Nazarenes Not Believing In the Bible at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...he_bible.thtml
    So he just keeps on twisting my words, as he's been doing for months now, posting it on each and every place he can find. What kind of testimony to "truth" is that?

    BTW, I have a new title for him, that avoids him having to write about me each and every day. Could save him some trouble: "NazNet's Hans Deventer will defend to his dying day that the Bible isn't verbally dictated". All the rest flows naturally from that point of view.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

  21. #21
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    Scott I didn't, I was just asking that you NOT ban this individual yet. I think the dialogue could be helpful. Sorry for the inability to communicate my thoughts more clearly.
    James, I have been praying for Grant for months now, almost daily. I have to believe that grace may actually win. But something will definitely have to change before we can have a helpful dialogue. Retracting all the misrepresentations would be a good start. Until that day, I'll keep praying as my Lord commands me to (Matt 5:44).
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
    Thanks David Graham, Benjamin Burch, Carolyn Franklin - "thanks" for this post

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    Hans, I don't always agree with you but I have come to respect you greatly, I know you also have a good heart and love the Lord. Blessings to you my friend!

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    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    A little stong on the grace aspect brother, unless that is you personally know Priscilla and her habits of extending grace.
    James,
    I've been following Grant Swank's blog for about 5 months now, and the two articles Priscilla posted and endorsed are just the tip of the iceberg. I have yet to see any measure of grace shown not only to fellow Christians, but also to those of differing religions, our national leaders, and far too many more to mention.
    Thanks Benjamin Burch, Hans Deventer, James Johnson - "thanks" for this post

  24. #24
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    Hans, I don't always agree with you but I have come to respect you greatly, I know you also have a good heart and love the Lord.
    Thank you James! I think there is no one on NazNet I always agree with either. But like you, I've come to respect you and many others and I know you and many more love the Lord dearly. I've even come to believe that people who are diametrically opposed to me when it comes to politics, are honestly seeking to live as they believe the Lord wants them to. I have learned that if I can love a gun owning Republican from Texas as Brad Mercer was, chances are, these issues just might not be the key issues I often make them out to be and we have a lot more in common than separates us. In my best moments, I even live accordingly.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

  25. #25
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    The Church of the Nazarene believes the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

    "We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation."

    The sttement was never meant to conclude that one believes the Word ONLY regarding salvation. Deventer is reading that into the statement.

    Read NAZNET HANS DEVENTER STILL DEFENDS NAZARENES NOT BELIEVING IN THE BIBLE at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...he_bible.thtml

    Also, read GOD CRASHED NAZNET at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...d_naznet.thtml

    However, there is a real chance that the site owner/moderators will see that this post is deleted and that I am not permitted to post on this site. They will do to me as they did to Robert Hartman--ban me from the site.
    Priscilla,

    I think that others have already said anything I could say here. Also, I'm not going to delete your post. I'd love to see a change in tone and dialogue between us and you (and maybe even Grant!). I would love this conversation to stand as a marker that says "we aren't going to go back there. We can move forward will do so." I would love to bring you and Grant back to this post, and his blog, in a few months and we all laugh together that you once posted such a thing and that he used to say such things about your brothers in Christ. We'd still probably disagree just as strongly. I'm surprised I've not come under any heat from Grant, I might be the most liberal person here. But i sincerely want fellowship with you two, and I sincerely want you two to be a part of this journey with us here at NazNet, and I would love for us to be able to enjoy our Lord together, as Brothers and Sisters in the same Body.

    Please, no more personal attacks. Feel free to state your convictions strongly. I will too. But please, no more personal attacks. If there are any more, those will in fact be deleted. We love different viewpoints on NazNet. Just ask Jim Chabot and George Wallace about me! So, welcome to the new NazNet, welcome to the new Theology Forum, and I hope and pray you will be thought of as a vital member of our community here.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  26. #26
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    So, welcome to the new NazNet, welcome to the new Theology Forum, and I hope and pray you will be thought of as a vital member of our community here.
    Ben, you're an example of grace. Thank you for teaching me. Please don't give up on me yet.
    And thanks for your signature. "τὸ εὐαγγέλιον, δύναμις γὰρ θεοῦ ἐστιν εἰς σωτηρίαν παντὶ τῶ πιστεύοντι". I completely agree, as does our Article of Faith.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
    Thanks David Graham, Benjamin Burch, Carolyn Franklin - "thanks" for this post

  27. #27
    Senior Member James Diggs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    οὐ γὰρ ἐπαισχύνομαι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον, δύναμις γὰρ θεοῦ ἐστιν εἰς σωτηρίαν παντὶ τῶ πιστεύοντι, ἰουδαίῳ τε πρῶτον καὶ ἕλληνι· δικαιοσύνη γὰρ θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῶ ἀποκαλύπτεται ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν, καθὼς γέγραπται, ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται..
    What is that? Elvish??
    Thanks Carolyn Franklin - "thanks" for this post

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    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Diggs View Post
    What is that? Elvish??
    Rather than taking the time to translate like I had to (Ben helped a little)... It's Romans 1:16-17
    Thanks Carolyn Franklin, James Diggs - "thanks" for this post

  29. #29
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    I couldn't help but think of how sad it is to have such a small view of God. For instance we believe God caused the walls of Jericho to fall down. Had those walls been back up and Jericho been about business as usual a few days later, what would that have said about the power and authority of the God of the Israelites?

    NazNet's server's hard drive died yet the website was up and running in less than 24 hours. Here we are 2 1/2 days later with nearly 900 posts on the forums. Surely, if God wanted to crash NazNet he'd do a better job than that!

    I think, personally, that writing about God crashing NazNet is more a plea to "notice me" than it is a theological belief. The thing is, if one desires to be noticed by NazNet all they have to do is register and participate while following the simple, reasonable rules.

  30. #30
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Diggs View Post
    What is that? Elvish??
    No, that looks differently.

    Click image for larger version

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    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

  31. #31
    Senior Member James Diggs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    No, that looks differently.

    Attachment 20
    Oh-I should have known, I can read that one

    One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them,
    One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

  32. #32
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    Ben, you're an example of grace. Thank you for teaching me. Please don't give up on me yet.
    I'm pretty sure I need more grace than anyone else here, usually more than many combined. I can't imagine the state of my life if I were unwilling to extend that grace to others.

    Lord knows I fail too often at doing so...
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  33. #33
    Senior Member Glenda Harvey's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by G R 'Scott' Cundiff View Post
    I thought he helped us get it back up and running is less time than anyone could have guessed.
    I was very surprised that Naznet was up and running so quickly. I was expecting to be without it for at least a week when I read how extensive the crash was. Thank you Scott for all of your hard work. ( I wondered if any of the Naznet detractors were going to pick up on this and say it was God's doing.)

  34. #34
    Senior Member

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    Hans, I think you did a pretty good job of trying to keep the tension on the teeter totter of the 4th Article. It is so much easier when we let the teeter totter rest on one side or the other. It takes no work, or thought. It is a comfortable place to rest one's theology. Yet, some how doing so takes away from the fullness of the see-saw. If we focus on key words in that article, we can read into it more than is there.

    I appreciate your thoughtfulness in this post.
    Believe me, I re-read what you wrote so as to understand what you said...AND what you didn't say.
    Thanks Todd Erickson, Hans Deventer - "thanks" for this post

  35. #35
    Senior Member Wilson Deaton's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    I think there is no one on NazNet I always agree with either. ...
    Hans, you are one of the people here whose lack of agreement with my opinion on any particular issue, makes me take a loooong hard look at my opinion...

    For every Grant out there who despises your views, there are bunches of us who greatly respect and appreciate them.

    Wilson

  36. #36
    Host PTT & CE Forum Steven Martinez's Avatar

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    My main issue with many of the literalists is the reduction of Scripture to merely a book of proverbs and wise sayings. It is easy to pull a verse here and there to make a point, it is more difficult to actually allow the Scriptures to shape and transform our lives for the benefit of others. What makes Scripture of any value is the God who gave it to us. Sadly, some of other brothers and sisters have a far greater desire to have a rule book then to have a relationship with a living God who constantly reveals God's truth to us. It seems some are merely content to have a book of truth then to live with the Spirit of Truth. I have no anger toward these brothers, especially the anger they seem to have toward us, I simply pity them and pray that God continues to call them in way that they will hear.

  37. #37
    Senior Member Cam Pence's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    The Church of the Nazarene believes the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

    "We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation."

    The sttement was never meant to conclude that one believes the Word ONLY regarding salvation. Deventer is reading that into the statement.

    Read NAZNET HANS DEVENTER STILL DEFENDS NAZARENES NOT BELIEVING IN THE BIBLE at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...he_bible.thtml

    Also, read GOD CRASHED NAZNET at http://grantswank.blogtownhall.com/2...d_naznet.thtml

    However, there is a real chance that the site owner/moderators will see that this post is deleted and that I am not permitted to post on this site. They will do to me as they did to Robert Hartman--ban me from the site.
    GOD CRASHED NAZNET?
    the same way he brought about hurricane katrina or the earthquake in haiti?
    Thats logical.

  38. #38
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla Swank View Post
    However, there is a real chance that the site owner/moderators will see that this post is deleted and that I am not permitted to post on this site. They will do to me as they did to Robert Hartman--ban me from the site.
    For the record, nobody has been banned, nor has this post been deleted. It seems Priscilla has chosen not to reply, but that is her own choice.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
    Thanks James Johnson - "thanks" for this post

  39. #39
    Senior Member Jeff Scott's Avatar

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    GOD?!?! GOD crashed Naznet?!?! Hogwash! It died of natural causes and has evolved into something else!

  40. #40
    Host Book, Movie & CE forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    Scott I know you hve come under attack in some of these blogs but I would ask that we not ban them for giving differing opinion, differing opinion happens all the time here. I think through dialog perhaps misunderstanding can be bridged on this subject. I do not know the history here nor do I personally know anyone involved in the debate. But perhaps the debate will be good for us. jmo And know this, I appreciate what you do here and I am praying for the division to be gapped. God bless you brother!
    I very much agree with you, so long as dialog happens. It becomes a difficult line to walk when some of the people who have posted here in past also, outside of Naznet, go to great lengths to get people fired or reprimanded for their beliefs. I would love discussion with all people here. My theology is very strong on the idea that we (at least as Christians) all have to get along with one another - we literally have no other choice. That being said, a community does have the right to set parameters for discussion. I hope this new start for Naznet provides opportunity for more people to be involved in the community here.
    ...just my $.02.

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